What-If 0003: "Yoda"

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Quicksilver
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What-If 0003: "Yoda"

Postby Quicksilver » Tue Jul 17, 2012 8:55 am UTC

How much Force power can Yoda output?
First we need to know how heavy the ship was
I'm surprised he can find the mass of a planet in the Star Wars books, but not specs for the X-Wing. Still, I lol'd at the punchline.

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Re: What-If 0003: Yoda

Postby The Moomin » Tue Jul 17, 2012 8:59 am UTC

At $2 an hour, it's no wonder Yoda sold out to Vodafone.
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Re: What-If 0003: Yoda

Postby MaxWonder » Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:38 am UTC

I may be a bit dim, but I can't find the surface gravity from wookiepedia...

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Re: What-If 0003: Yoda

Postby icalvo » Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:45 am UTC

A friend of mine, airplane geek, immediately spotted a mistake in your data.

The F-22 does not weight 19.700 lbs but 19.700 kg!

Also I have seen a big mistake in your calculation:

5300 * 0.9 * 1.4 / 3.6 = 1855 W = 1.85 kW (NOT 18.5)

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Re: What-If 0003: Yoda

Postby zyzyzyryxy » Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:56 am UTC

And I wonder why he did not estimate mass of the water moved along with the ship. As far as I know it might be a few times more than mass of the x-wing alone, thus increasing Yoda's power output considerably.

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Re: What-If 0003: Yoda

Postby tendays » Tue Jul 17, 2012 11:02 am UTC

zyzyzyryxy wrote:And I wonder why he did not estimate mass of the water moved along with the ship. As far as I know it might be a few times more than mass of the x-wing alone, thus increasing Yoda's power output considerably.

Wouldn't Archimedes' force more than compensate for that? (disclaimer: I have not seen that scene (yes, I know, return my geek card on the way out, etc) so I may be picturing it incorrectly)
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Re: What-If 0003: Yoda

Postby Max™ » Tue Jul 17, 2012 12:00 pm UTC

Ugh, the pun at the end, terrible it was, hmm, yes, but great still may it be.
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Re: What-If 0003: Yoda

Postby zyzyzyryxy » Tue Jul 17, 2012 12:05 pm UTC

tendays wrote:
zyzyzyryxy wrote:And I wonder why he did not estimate mass of the water moved along with the ship. As far as I know it might be a few times more than mass of the x-wing alone, thus increasing Yoda's power output considerably.

Wouldn't Archimedes' force more than compensate for that? (disclaimer: I have not seen that scene (yes, I know, return my geek card on the way out, etc) so I may be picturing it incorrectly)


You might be right - I was thinking about horizontal movement, not vertical. When a boat moves fast on the surface, mass of water moving in its trail is much larger than mass of the boat itself.
But buoyancy makes things even worse for that What-If - estimated power might be either higher or lower than the result, so whole calculation is useless!

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Re: What-If 0003: Yoda

Postby Max™ » Tue Jul 17, 2012 12:14 pm UTC

I've seen more useless calculations on spacebattles.

Now, I understand leaving the prequels out, but there are some rather quantifiable feats which could be pulled from them.

Catching/deflecting the rocks from the ceiling, catching the big tower/coil/whatever as it fell, bouncing the guards off the wall, shoving the pope sidious across the room, catching the senate seat thing/spinning it up/hurling it back, all would provide workable figures.
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Re: What-If 0003: Yoda

Postby eidako » Tue Jul 17, 2012 12:52 pm UTC

Fairly certain Luke does some colossal leaps through the air in the original trilogy. Guessing that would be a lot more demanding than force-pulling a lightsaber.

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Re: What-If 0003: Yoda

Postby Qaanol » Tue Jul 17, 2012 1:36 pm UTC

The Moomin wrote:At $2 an hour, it's no wonder Yoda sold out to Vodafone.

Randall seems to get the $2/hour figure based on electricity delivered through the grid, but the major value of a Yoda is its portability (also: its wisdom). You can pack your little tiny Yoda on an airplane or spaceship, and it keeps right on cranking out the watts. Of course, then there’s the question of fuel, namely how much mass of food does Yoda eat per hour/day/century.
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Re: What-If 0003: Yoda

Postby blowfishhootie » Tue Jul 17, 2012 1:50 pm UTC

Wow, it only took two weeks for this thing to go from "kind of cool, I guess" to, "man, that sure was stupid."

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Re: What-If 0003: Yoda

Postby dzamie » Tue Jul 17, 2012 2:00 pm UTC

Keep in mind that this power estimate is a low bound, since (from what I remember) it isn't said that Yoda is using all of his Force-strength to move the X-wing, so he is potentially more powerful than the calculations supplied.

blowfishhootie wrote:Wow, it only took two weeks for this thing to go from "kind of cool, I guess" to, "man, that sure was stupid."

I still think it's interesting.
The threads seem to follow the basic structure of "Randall posted an explanation, let's prove him wrong," which is kind of interesting when multiple points of view come into play.

Code: Select all

:Clrhome
:while 1
:Output(randInt(1,8),randInt(1,16),randInt(0,9))
:Output(randInt(1,8),randInt(1,16)," ")
:Output(randInt(1,8),randInt(1,16)," ")
:End

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Re: What-If 0003: Yoda

Postby ahammel » Tue Jul 17, 2012 2:09 pm UTC

eidako wrote:Fairly certain Luke does some colossal leaps through the air in the original trilogy. Guessing that would be a lot more demanding than force-pulling a lightsaber.

Tricky to estimate how much of that is force power, though, as his muscles are presumably contributing an appreciable fraction.
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Re: What-If 0003: Yoda

Postby TrueNarnian » Tue Jul 17, 2012 2:37 pm UTC

What about Pikachu?

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Re: What-If 0003: Yoda

Postby Perey » Tue Jul 17, 2012 2:42 pm UTC

dzamie wrote:The threads seem to follow the basic structure of "Randall posted an explanation, let's prove him wrong," which is kind of interesting when multiple points of view come into play.

I'm waiting to see how long it takes before the Star Wars fandom arrives to tell us all how many of Randall's figures were wrong.

...

Eh, screw waiting, let's get this ball rolling. An X-wing is 12.5 metres long, not 16. I mean, duh.

(Poe's Law aversion clause: The joke is that there are multiple conflicting sources for pretty much every measurement in the Star Wars canon. No doubt Randall was reading one source, and I another. ... Okay, my wife is demanding credit -- she's the one who knows how long an X-wing is, off the top of her head.)

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Re: What-If 0003: Yoda

Postby wonderaleph » Tue Jul 17, 2012 2:42 pm UTC

Excellent idea, but I think there is a small mistage in the figure used.
According to wikipedia, a f22 does not weight 19,700 lbs but 19,700 kg.

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Re: What-If 0003: Yoda

Postby NeedMoreCoffee » Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:42 pm UTC

I'm waiting to see how long it takes before the Star Wars fandom arrives to tell us all how many of Randall's figures were wrong.
Eh, screw waiting, let's get this ball rolling. An X-wing is 12.5 metres long, not 16. I mean, duh.

(Poe's Law aversion clause: The joke is that there are multiple conflicting sources for pretty much every measurement in the Star Wars canon. No doubt Randall was reading one source, and I another. ... Okay, my wife is demanding credit -- she's the one who knows how long an X-wing is, off the top of her head.)


Well, he seemed to use the movie to estimate the size of the X-Wing... but then looked up the gravity of Dagobah in Wookieepedia... when the size of an X-Wing is also in Wookieepedia... I'd think he would have used the same source for both estimates. Science, and all that.

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Re: What-If 0003: Yoda

Postby MeticulousMitch » Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:44 pm UTC

This annoyed me so much I had to register and post:

An F-22 weighs 19,700 kilograms, not 19,700 pounds. And that's empty - fully fuelled and loaded it is 29,300kg. This information is in plain view on the USAF website.

Furthermore, if an X-Wing is indeed 16 metres long, it would be a much better idea to approximate its mass to an F-35 instead, which is 15.67m in length. No need for the vague mass/volume calculations, which skew the result even further.

An F-35 weighs 13,300kg empty and 22,470kg loaded. So really, the X-Wing is going to weigh in at something like 20 tonnes, which is 4 times more than the estimate given! I'm going to have to take a closer look at some of the other numbers now.

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Re: What-If 0003: Yoda

Postby Brickmack » Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:50 pm UTC

I think it was wrong to only include the original trilogy. In the prequils there are some things Yoda did that would have probably taken a lot more Force-power to do, which would have been better examples. Also, if the video games are included, I think there was one scene in the Force Unleashed where, among other things, Galen Marek brings down an entire Star Destroyer (which is considerably larger than an X-Wing). Also in episode IV, Vader mentions that the ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force, hinting that manipulation of objects on planetary and larger scales is possible for those strong with the Force.

Not to mention that anyone with any Force ability could just mind trick a few thousand people to turn cranks and make power.

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Re: What-If 0003: Yoda

Postby Kain » Tue Jul 17, 2012 4:02 pm UTC

Brickmack wrote:I think it was wrong to only include the original trilogy. In the prequils there are some things Yoda did that would have probably taken a lot more Force-power to do, which would have been better examples. Also, if the video games are included, I think there was one scene in the Force Unleashed where, among other things, Galen Marek brings down an entire Star Destroyer (which is considerably larger than an X-Wing). Also in episode IV, Vader mentions that the ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force, hinting that manipulation of objects on planetary and larger scales is possible for those strong with the Force.

Not to mention that anyone with any Force ability could just mind trick a few thousand people to turn cranks and make power.


I think the point of excluding the prequels, besides just being a fandom issue, is that a lot of the force abilities in the prequels seem to lack any semblance of consistency.. I mean, if you have the power to throw around pieces of buildings, why bother electrocuting Mace Windu when you can just crush him do death with the walls of your room.

As to the Vader quote, I took it more as an "I can manipulate the thoughts and emotions of those around me to get what I want. You have to rely on a tool to obtain just a small measure of the fear I can produce. Clearly I am stronger." sort of deal.

Meanwhile, yeah, superheroes tend to be kinda jerkish. Escalation anyone?
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Re: What-If 0003: Yoda

Postby asdfzxc » Tue Jul 17, 2012 4:59 pm UTC

Yoda's "size matters not" line implies that his lifting power is massive, possibly even infinite, so it's pretty futile to try to accurately measure it.

The Emperor's lightning is fair game though.

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Re: What-If 0003: Yoda

Postby Doodle77 » Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:41 pm UTC

There is another time in the series (I don't remember when, unfortunately) where one character knocks a column down with the Force. I suspect that the peak power involved would be much larger.

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Re: What-If 0003: Yoda

Postby Pfhorrest » Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:09 pm UTC

asdfzxc wrote:Yoda's "size matters not" line implies that his lifting power is massive, possibly even infinite, so it's pretty futile to try to accurately measure it.

The Emperor's lightning is fair game though.

Yeah, the whole thing about The Force being omnipresent and "size matters not" always suggested to me that something like lifting an X-Wing is all a matter of mystically communing with the energies that are already present within and around the X-Wing; you're not personally outputting kW of power, you're asking the Force to shuffle around some energy the flow of which is equivalent to kW of power.

It's sort of like the ability to part a crowd or otherwise direct large movements of people by charisma and charm and general people skills; you're not literally pushing crowds of people around, you're just influential enough to get them to move under their own power at your word, or even without a word. I think the Force is like that, but extended to inanimate objects. The Force is alive and within them all and it can do anything if you know how to ask it correctly. All Force powers are basically an extension of Jedi mind powers, in a panpsychic universe.
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Re: What-If 0003: Yoda

Postby ahammel » Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:12 pm UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:Yeah, the whole thing about The Force being omnipresent and "size matters not" always suggested to me that something like lifting an X-Wing is all a matter of mystically communing with the energies that are already present within and around the X-Wing; you're not personally outputting kW of power, you're asking the Force to shuffle around some energy the flow of which is equivalent to kW of power.

I suspect that this is a distinction without a difference as far as physics is concerned.
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Re: What-If 0003: Yoda

Postby Pfhorrest » Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:15 pm UTC

There's no difference in the end result of a given action, but there'd be a difference in the limits of what actions are possible, if bigger tasks came with bigger energy sources built in.
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Re: What-If 0003: Yoda

Postby philsov » Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:16 pm UTC

extra credit:

Would having a yoda mounted onto an X-wing (or A-wing) be superior or inferior to an R2 unit, in terms of doing repair/maintenance and providing additional energy to engine/laser/shields?

How many yodas are required to operate 1 alderan-destroying death star beam? Does this not mean that the Death Star was is the ultimate power in the universe?
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Re: What-If 0003: Yoda

Postby Lynx Cat » Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:17 pm UTC

ahammel wrote:
Pfhorrest wrote:Yeah, the whole thing about The Force being omnipresent and "size matters not" always suggested to me that something like lifting an X-Wing is all a matter of mystically communing with the energies that are already present within and around the X-Wing; you're not personally outputting kW of power, you're asking the Force to shuffle around some energy the flow of which is equivalent to kW of power.

I suspect that this is a distinction without a difference as far as physics is concerned.


Maybe there is - it sounds kinda like the Force is a field, associated with a 5th kind of physical interaction, only this "communing with the energies" would mean that the "heavy-lifting" (i.e. exchange of Force-carrier bosons) is done exclusively by manipulating the "shape" of the field (similar to the effect gravity has on spacetime), which is done via mental powers. If there's no direct relation between the energy expended by the Force user (if any) and the size of the field distortion, then Yoda's "size matters not" quote makes much more sense. The only thing is how exactly would that work... I'll try and write up a more detailed theory of Forcedynamics later.
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Re: What-If 0003: Yoda

Postby Kain » Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:17 pm UTC

philsov wrote:extra credit:

Would having a yoda mounted onto an X-wing (or A-wing) be superior or inferior to an R2 unit, in terms of doing repair/maintenance and providing additional energy to engine/laser/shields?

How many yodas are required to operate 1 alderan-destroying death star beam? Does this not mean that the Death Star was is the ultimate power in the universe?


Well, assuming you want the yodas to survive for any period of time, you are going to have to increase the life support capabilities of the fighter craft, clearly a point in favor of the R-series droids. The R droids are also likely to have a higher rate of processing in regards to tactical analysis, though the yodas could theoretically make up for this by manipulating the battlefield into the position they desired, rather than analyzing the current situation. As for maintenance, we know that yodas like to eat high energy foods, and are fully capable of foraging for themselves. Further, given that the amount of time spent a particular yoda was observed cooking, compared to the amount of time said yoda was observed to be eating, one can estimate that yodas in general have a low metabolism rate and are relatively cheap to care for. R-series droids, on the other hand, seem to be highly energetic, which would indicate the need for frequent recharging, though this task seems to be one they are capable of performing for themselves.

As an aside, only 1 yoda is required to operate an alderaan destroying death star beam, provided they have an adequate spiffy helmet.
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Re: What-If 0003: Yoda

Postby dragonfiremalus » Tue Jul 17, 2012 8:34 pm UTC

If the force could be used to influence particles on the atomic and subatomic level, the best possible use for force power output could probably be in initiating fusion reactions. I don't have all the numbers right in front of me, but it is theoretically possible to get several hundred times the input. Thus, if you can solve containment issues and power harnessing issues, then you could turn Yoda power into a viable power supply. However, even if one is unable to do this, Yoda power is still better than Futurama's "Nibbler Power."

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Re: What-If 0003: Yoda

Postby Max™ » Tue Jul 17, 2012 8:47 pm UTC

I just realized Randall is making these to see what the most ridiculous thing he can get us to discuss is!
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Re: What-If 0003: Yoda

Postby carolineee » Tue Jul 17, 2012 10:22 pm UTC

Honestly, what use is that 18kW if you don't know how many X-Wings Yoda can lift per hour/day/year/whatever. If you're talking about green Yoda energy supply, you have to talk in kW/h and if he could on average lift 10 X-Wings per hour with breaks and without getting too tired, then that's 180kW/h, which is enough to supply ten blocks of houses with energy. And if he can only do this once a day and has to regenerate afterwards, we're at 18/24 = 0,67kW/h which is not that impressive.

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Re: What-If 0003: Yoda

Postby drewder » Tue Jul 17, 2012 11:35 pm UTC

Well I believe the definitive statement on the power of the force was give by Darth Vader in the first movie "Even the power to destroy a planet is nothing compared to the power of the force" which would seem like a pretty limitless source for energy generation.

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Re: What-If 0003: Yoda

Postby Max™ » Tue Jul 17, 2012 11:42 pm UTC

You will learn to respect the watts of the shaded facet of the newtons.
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Re: What-If 0003: Yoda

Postby Jet Von Li » Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:10 am UTC

Does anyone know where to find the value for Dagobah's gravitational field on wookieepedia?

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Re: What-If 0003: Yoda

Postby JustDoug » Wed Jul 18, 2012 1:29 am UTC

Another factor is loss of energy in conversion of Force to... Um... A different, uncapitalized, force.

What I'd really want to know is how much electric can you get out of him and how do you plug into the little guy?

No, in fact forget that last part. I'd prefer no to know.

Aside: Hey, why no link to the forum (again)? Every time the home page gets played with, the forum link seems to be the sacrifice made.

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Re: What-If 0003: Yoda

Postby drewder » Wed Jul 18, 2012 1:53 am UTC

JustDoug wrote:Another factor is loss of energy in conversion of Force to... Um... A different, uncapitalized, force.

What I'd really want to know is how much electric can you get out of him and how do you plug into the little guy?

No, in fact forget that last part. I'd prefer no to know.

Aside: Hey, why no link to the forum (again)? Every time the home page gets played with, the forum link seems to be the sacrifice made.


Hmm I wonder how many Midi-chlorians you get to the mile?

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Re: What-If 0003: Yoda

Postby brakos82 » Wed Jul 18, 2012 3:22 am UTC

Now the real question.... what if a baseball pitcher pitched Yoda at .9c?
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Re: What-If 0003: Yoda

Postby Qaanol » Wed Jul 18, 2012 3:53 am UTC

carolineee wrote:kW/h

These are not the units of power you are looking for.
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Re: What-If 0003: Yoda

Postby MartinN » Wed Jul 18, 2012 4:40 am UTC

The motor of a Smart car is not at the front, but in the back.

Also, I would happily pay up to 4 dollar / hour to drive a Yoda powered car.


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