## What-If 0003: "Yoda"

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Kit.
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### Re: What-If 0003: Yoda

Kit. wrote:
Kit. wrote:
Adam H wrote:We know that the force is less powerful than the death star (in practical terms),

In practical terms, the force changes the powers in the galaxy. The death star doesn't.
No, those are really really abstract terms. "Changes the powers of the galaxy"? What does that mean exactly?

The stuff that happens between the Jedi. Ordinary weapons, like the death star, are for killing ordinary people. For some reason they seem to not work well against jedi.

"For some reason"? It's selection bias, duh.

I'd say that it's more like a selection rule.

Pgood
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### Re: What-If 0003: Yoda

blowfishhootie wrote:In my opinion, this hypothetical would be better posed with Magneto picking up the Golden Gate Bridge with all the people on it in whichever X-Men movie that was. Seems like that required more power than anything I remember Yoda doing.

Hm. I wonder how big the magnetically induced currents running in the metal on the bridge would be with that intense a magnetic field. Would anyone touching the metal while standing on the bridge inadvertently become a circuit path between the metal and the pavement? The instantaneous explosion of an innocent bystander would have been fun to see.

carolineee
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### Re: What-If 0003: Yoda

putdeksel wrote:
carolineee wrote:I guess you're thinking about kWh, which is of course the unit of energy we should be looking for in the end.
However, if I say that Yoda has a power of 18kW per hour, then that's kW/h, isn't it? Strange unit though.

the Watt represents one Joule per second, or J/s. so a power of 18 kW 'per hour' would be meaningless, as 18 kW already means 18 kJ per second.

Hm, not neccessarily meaningless (the change of power output would have those units, wouldn't it?), but certainly not what I'm looking for. Thanks for the clarification.

queueingtheory
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### Re: What-If 0003: Yoda

blowfishhootie wrote:I agree, this annoyed me big time about the Star Wars movies. Ultimately, the force doesn't really do shit. Vader, referring to the Death Star, says at one point something along the lines of, "the ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the force." So why the hell didn't Yoda or whoever else just use the force to destroy the damn thing?

Everybody stand back. I know regular expressions.

s/ability to destroy a planet/energy available in fossil fuels/
s/power of the force/amount that could be obtained from renewables/

In any case:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0076759/quotes

Admiral Motti: Any attack made by the Rebels against this station would be a useless gesture, no matter what technical data they have obtained. This station is now the ultimate power in the universe! I suggest we use it!
Darth Vader: Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the potential of the Force.

Note the use of "potential". The suggestion is that the power is there, even if it it's difficult to use.

Max™
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### Re: What-If 0003: Yoda

Oh lord, so now we're working with watts, newtons, AND volts?
mu

Kit.
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### Re: What-If 0003: Yoda

Max™ wrote:Oh lord, so now we're working with watts, newtons, AND volts?

No one said "volts".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermodynamic_potential, on the other hand...

Max™
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### Re: What-If 0003: Yoda

Volts is the most obvious unit associated with "potential" in my head.
mu

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### Re: What-If 0003: Yoda

Max™ wrote:Oh lord, so now we're working with watts, newtons, AND volts?

i think it's about time someone says: Coulomb. No one ever remembers the poor guy

Max™
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### Re: What-If 0003: Yoda

Max™ wrote:Oh lord, so now we're working with watts, newtons, AND volts?

i think it's about time someone says: Coulomb. No one ever remembers the poor guy

Is it sad I remember him mostly from the Cheela names in Starquake?
mu

blowfishhootie
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### Re: What-If 0003: Yoda

queueingtheory wrote:
blowfishhootie wrote:I agree, this annoyed me big time about the Star Wars movies. Ultimately, the force doesn't really do shit. Vader, referring to the Death Star, says at one point something along the lines of, "the ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the force." So why the hell didn't Yoda or whoever else just use the force to destroy the damn thing?

Everybody stand back. I know regular expressions.

s/ability to destroy a planet/energy available in fossil fuels/
s/power of the force/amount that could be obtained from renewables/

In any case:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0076759/quotes

Admiral Motti: Any attack made by the Rebels against this station would be a useless gesture, no matter what technical data they have obtained. This station is now the ultimate power in the universe! I suggest we use it!
Darth Vader: Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the potential of the Force.

Note the use of "potential". The suggestion is that the power is there, even if it it's difficult to use.

The quote is wrong. He says "power of the force."

SEE
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### Re: What-If 0003: Yoda

Geekoid wrote:"But with world electricity consumption pushing 2 terawatts,"
You should clarify 2TWh.

No, he shouldn't, because that would be wrong.

Geekoid wrote:When looking at electrical consumption, most global data reports it on TWh per yr (over 20,000 TWh/yr if anyone is interested).

Right. Now, convert TWh into TWyr, and you'll notice 20,000 TWh/yr is 2.28 TWyr/yr. You take 2.28 TWyr/yr, cancel out the yrs, and get 2.28 TW. You can if you like say that's a rate of 2.28 TWs/s, or 2.28 TW-minutes/minute, or 2.28 TW-centuries/century, or 2.28 TW-picoseconds/picosecond, or whatever, but there's no point; you can just leave it at 2.28 terawatts, and be absolutely correct.

Or "2 terrawatts", if you are only using one sig fig.

Kit.
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### Re: What-If 0003: Yoda

SEE wrote:Or "2 terrawatts", if you are only using one sig fig.

One terrawatt = 2 terawatts.

Kaiman
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### Re: What-If 0003: Yoda

If the cost of the energy is zero wouldn't that mean creating an infinite amount would be possible? At which point Jedi master could actually be able to accelerate something to the speed of light.

Potentially limitness, but never actually infinite.

InfinityOrNone
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### Re: What-If 0003: Yoda

Hey, I just rewatched the movies, and (regarding Yoda being the most efficient power source) Randall didn't just make a small mistake, he got it wrong on an entire order of magnitude. In the movie Empire Strikes Back, we see the single most powerful display of force power in the original trilogy. No, not Yoda levitating the X-Wing (as Randall claimed) or anything so spectacular. Instead, it's something far, far more humble: Vader choking the life out of Admiral Ozzel.

When we first see this, it is a rather subtle display (or at least as subtle as choking a man to death can be) until you realize something: Vader and Ozzel are on two entirely different ships. Ignoring the fact that Lucas Arts' prop team failed science (according to trigonometry, the farthest Star Destroyers are less than a mile apart), the two ships would have to be miles apart. Thousands of miles apart, in fact. Using that, we're able to figure out a few things about the force used by, well, the Force.

First is the amount of force exerted on Ozzel's neck. For simplicity's sake, we're going to assume the maximum amount used in gripping an object, about 112 pounds of force, or 224 pounds if using two hands. Assuming his neck is the same size as mine (5.5 inches tall, 15 around) that makes 6.875 square feet, leaving us with a force of 32.6 (reduced) foot-pounds.

Now comes the amazing part: the distance. For this, we’re going to have to assume that the Force works like most real-world forces and not anything screwy like entanglement or what-have-you, and we’ll apply one of the great laws of physics: that the intensity of a force between two objects is inversely proportional to the square of the distance between them, better known as the Inverse Square Law. Now, let’s assume, for some ludicrous reason, that Vader and Ozzel are only 500 miles away. Not really a realistic distance, but one that’ll work nonetheless. Now, I know this is bad physics, but I’ll give that our previous force of 32.6 foot-pounds is for a distance of an inch, if only because I’m too lazy to figure out the math I’d actually need for this. Anyway, with these horrific assumptions entered, we can figure out how much force Vader actually exerted to murder Ozzel. All we have to do is solve the following equation:

32.6 foot-pounds (18480 inch-pounds)/x=500 miles (31680000 inches)^2/1 inch^2

Now, I might have failed math more than once, but if I did this right it equals 585446400000 inch-pounds, or 48787200000 foot-pounds, or (more importantly) 793758736906.0041 joules. This… is a ridiculous amount of force, and was sustained for a full three seconds, resulting in 16262400000, over 162 gigawatts watts, or far, far, far more power than Yoda used. Forget going green, I’m going with Vader-power!

ijuin
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### Re: What-If 0003: Yoda

The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of The Force.

I seem to recall one of the Expanded Universe novels having a scene where a Sith actually managed to make a star go nova or something using The Force.

Pfhorrest
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### Re: What-If 0003: Yoda

InfinityOrNone wrote:Forget going green, I’m going with Vader-power!

You know what they say: once you go black, you never go back! forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will!
Forrest Cameranesi, Geek of All Trades
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rmsgrey
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### Re: What-If 0003: Yoda

InfinityOrNone wrote:Hey, I just rewatched the movies, and (regarding Yoda being the most efficient power source) Randall didn't just make a small mistake, he got it wrong on an entire order of magnitude. In the movie Empire Strikes Back, we see the single most powerful display of force power in the original trilogy. No, not Yoda levitating the X-Wing (as Randall claimed) or anything so spectacular. Instead, it's something far, far more humble: Vader choking the life out of Admiral Ozzel.[...]
Now comes the amazing part: the distance. For this, we’re going to have to assume that the Force works like most real-world forces and not anything screwy like entanglement or what-have-you, and we’ll apply one of the great laws of physics: that the intensity of a force between two objects is inversely proportional to the square of the distance between them, better known as the Inverse Square Law.

That's fair enough, but the area across which that force is applied should be directly proportional to the square of the distance - ignoring losses in transmission, the total power across a cross section of the Force-beam from Vader to Ozzel should be constant. Unless you're suggesting that Vader is force-choking everyone within 500 miles, his power level is not significantly different whether he's choking someone within arm's reach, or someone in a neighbouring galaxy. It's only if he's bathing a much larger area in Force-choke-energy that he needs to supply more power...

jpers36
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### Re: What-If 0003: Yoda

InfinityOrNone wrote:Now, I might have failed math more than once, but if I did this right it equals 585446400000 inch-pounds, or 48787200000 foot-pounds, or (more importantly) 793758736906.0041 joules. This… is a ridiculous amount of force, and was sustained for a full three seconds, resulting in 16262400000, over 162 gigawatts watts, or far, far, far more power than Yoda used. Forget going green, I’m going with Vader-power!

What rmsgrey said.

Think of it this way: Let's say you fire a bullet in a micro-gravity vacuum. That bullet has the same force of impact whether it hits a target in 50 feet or 50 miles.

Just Cool Enough for School
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### Re: What-If 0003: Yoda

jpers36 wrote:
InfinityOrNone wrote:Now, I might have failed math more than once, but if I did this right it equals 585446400000 inch-pounds, or 48787200000 foot-pounds, or (more importantly) 793758736906.0041 joules. This… is a ridiculous amount of force, and was sustained for a full three seconds, resulting in 16262400000, over 162 gigawatts watts, or far, far, far more power than Yoda used. Forget going green, I’m going with Vader-power!

What rmsgrey said.

Think of it this way: Let's say you fire a bullet in a micro-gravity vacuum. That bullet has the same force of impact whether it hits a target in 50 feet or 50 miles.

That means Sir Isaac Newton is the deadliest son-of-a-bitch in space.
I looked out across the river today …

speising
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### Re: What-If 0003: Yoda

not to mention that inch-pounds or foot-pounds have got to be among the most ridiculous units i've heard of, especially when used for calculations.

dtilque
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### Re: What-If 0003: Yoda

Copper Bezel wrote:Um. No. Read the thread or check your terminology before posting, one of the two. The 2 TW is use at any time. A TWh is an hour's worth of current at 1 TW. TWh per year is just TW, times 87600, which is how many hours there are in a year....

My calculator says there are 8766 hours in an Earth year, but your planet may vary.

Pgood wrote:My biggest thought was that Randall ignored (possibly intentionally, for the sake of argument) the fact that the force required to lift an object out of muddy swamp water is substantially more than trying to move it through vacuum or air, as anyone who has walked through a swamp and lost a boot can tell you. Calculating the density, viscosity, and polar properties of that goop could be prohibitive, though, as it's fictional mud made with fictional alien detritus on a fictional world.

But I want my fake physics to be comprehensive, dang it!

That's suction you are talking about. There are ways of avoiding it, mostly by rocking or twisting the object being lifted out of the mud so as to let water in under it. It's been so long since I've seen the movie, that I don't remember for sure if that was done. But I think it was.
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Pfhorrest
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### Re: What-If 0003: Yoda

dtilque wrote:That's suction you are talking about. There are ways of avoiding it, mostly by rocking or twisting the object being lifted out of the mud so as to let water in under it. It's been so long since I've seen the movie, that I don't remember for sure if that was done. But I think it was.

What I recall is a spaceship rising slowly and steadily out of what appeared to be murky but still clearly fluid water as though resting on a hydraulic lift that was rising. So neither the solution to getting things unstuck from mud you mention, nor that problem to begin with.
Forrest Cameranesi, Geek of All Trades
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philsov
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### Re: What-If 0003: Yoda

InfinityOrNone wrote:Hey, I just rewatched the movies, and (regarding Yoda being the most efficient power source) Randall didn't just make a small mistake, he got it wrong on an entire order of magnitude...

Best first post by anyone ever.

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dtilque
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### Re: What-If 0003: Yoda

Pfhorrest wrote:
dtilque wrote:That's suction you are talking about. There are ways of avoiding it, mostly by rocking or twisting the object being lifted out of the mud so as to let water in under it. It's been so long since I've seen the movie, that I don't remember for sure if that was done. But I think it was.

What I recall is a spaceship rising slowly and steadily out of what appeared to be murky but still clearly fluid water as though resting on a hydraulic lift that was rising. So neither the solution to getting things unstuck from mud you mention, nor that problem to begin with.

Ah, you just explained why Luke was unable to lift it while Yoda could. Yoda conveniently did not tell Luke where the controls of the lift were.
Whenever visually representing the universe, it's important to include a picture of Saturn!
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bmonk
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### Re: What-If 0003: Yoda

dtilque wrote:
Pfhorrest wrote:What I recall is a spaceship rising slowly and steadily out of what appeared to be murky but still clearly fluid water as though resting on a hydraulic lift that was rising. So neither the solution to getting things unstuck from mud you mention, nor that problem to begin with.

Ah, you just explained why Luke was unable to lift it while Yoda could. Yoda conveniently did not tell Luke where the controls of the lift were.

Well, Yoda experienced enough is to know that, if an easier, more efficient way is there, proper use of the Force to use that way it is.
Having become a Wizard on n.p. 2183, the Yellow Piggy retroactively appointed his honorable self a Temporal Wizardly Piggy on n.p.1488, not to be effective until n.p. 2183, thereby avoiding a partial temporal paradox. Since he couldn't afford two philosophical PhDs to rule on the title.

alanbbent
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### Re: What-If 0003: Yoda

??? Why does the mouseover text for that very bottom image say that Yoda is listening to an mp3 player? That's clearly not what's happening in the image.

SnorlaxMonster
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### Re: What-If 0003: Yoda

The Japanese name of Thunderbolt is 100,000 Volts. According to Mr. Carlson in A Sneak Peek at Pokémon, "These little cheeks unleash electric potential and electromotive forces equal to the difference of a constant current of 1000 amperes when the power dissipates between points". Therefore, a Pikachu using Thunderbolt outputs:

Code: Select all

`P = V*I = 100,000*1000 = 100,000,000W = 100GW`

Making Pikachu far more powerful than Yoda...

ijuin
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### Re: What-If 0003: Yoda

Ah, but for how long can Pikachu keep up the discharge? If it were for one microsecond, then the 100 GW discharge would expend 100 kilojoules. If you're getting into the megajoules or higher, then you have to start asking where the energy comes from, since it's definitely not coming from the electrochemical energy in the food that he eats . . .

kyriezolo
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### Re: What-If 0003: Yoda

What about Starkiller, Dark Vader's non-canon apprentice? He has some exceptional feats in the two The Force Unleashed games. Ignoring the small things like using force-lightning to fry people/droids, and grabbing/hurling them around, there are many definite examples unaffected by gameplay:

The Force Unleashed 1:
- Stops a falling Star Destroyer

The Force Unleashed 2 (more obvious examples of power output here):
- Grabs and throws about 4 TIE-fighters
- Overpowers the Gorog's muscular strength twice for each arm
- Uses the Force to accelerate beyond terminal velocity(in planet Cato Neimoidia's atmospheric conditions/gravity) and blast through the Gorog
- Produces enough lightning & force push to charge the Salvation's Fusion Accelerator Cannon, which is probably an ion cannon from the game's graphics, and split a star-destroyer in half
- Uses excessive force lightning in the final battle with Vader

He also occasionally blasts through doors and uses force repulse.

nhum
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### Re: What-If 0003:" Yoda"

I noticed a problem with Randall's calculation. When Yoda lifted the ship he was a certain distance away from it. If he were closer, we can assume he would be more powerful, since if force stayed constant with change of distance then it wouldn't be realistic. Thus we must make an assumption about the function from distance to force. I think a reasonable choice would be to make f(d) = k/d^2. We would need more data points beside the ship to create such a function and then we can calculate this for small d. Or something like that.

stoppedcaring
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### Re: What-If 0003:" Yoda"

nhum wrote:I noticed a problem with Randall's calculation. When Yoda lifted the ship he was a certain distance away from it. If he were closer, we can assume he would be more powerful, since if force stayed constant with change of distance then it wouldn't be realistic. Thus we must make an assumption about the function from distance to force. I think a reasonable choice would be to make f(d) = k/d^2. We would need more data points beside the ship to create such a function and then we can calculate this for small d. Or something like that.

Nah, the whole point of Force-assisted telekinesis is that force IS constant with respect to distance.

Whizbang
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### Re: What-If 0003:" Yoda"

So a force user could lift something on another world, if he only just believed he could?

peregrine_crow
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### Re: What-If 0003:" Yoda"

Whizbang wrote:So a force user could lift something on another world, if he only just believed he could?

Presumably you have to be able to see it (or at least have a pretty good idea of it's location)?
Ignorance killed the cat, curiosity was framed.

stoppedcaring
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### Re: What-If 0003:" Yoda"

Whizbang wrote:So a force user could lift something on another world, if he only just believed he could?

Considering that the power of the Death Star can destroy entire worlds, but is said to be insignificant in comparison to the power of the Force...yes.

Galen Marek plucked a star destroyer out of the sky. Tulak Horde supposedly did a similar thing. Of course, it may be that force telekinesis requires line of sight.

And though this isn't the use of telekinesis, specifically, Obi Wan and Yoda both felt disturbances in the force from many lightyears distant -- Obi Wan when Alderaan was blown up; Yoda when Order 66 was activated. Those signals don't appear to attenuate with distance.

stoppedcaring
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### Re: What-If 0003:" Yoda"

stoppedcaring wrote:
Whizbang wrote:So a force user could lift something on another world, if he only just believed he could?

Considering that the power of the Death Star can destroy entire worlds, but is said to be insignificant in comparison to the power of the Force...yes.

Galen Marek plucked a star destroyer out of the sky. Tulak Horde supposedly did a similar thing. Of course, it may be that force telekinesis requires line of sight. Though IIRC, Vader was able to force-choke someone through a TV screen.

And though this isn't the use of telekinesis, specifically, Obi Wan and Yoda both felt disturbances in the force from many lightyears distant -- Obi Wan when Alderaan was blown up; Yoda when Order 66 was activated. Those signals don't appear to attenuate with distance.

Flumble
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### Re: What-If 0003:" Yoda"

stoppedcaring wrote:And though this isn't the use of telekinesis, specifically, Obi Wan and Yoda both felt disturbances in the force from many lightyears distant -- Obi Wan when Alderaan was blown up; Yoda when Order 66 was activated. Those signals don't appear to attenuate with distance.

Concerning both this and use of the force: do these signals have a lightspeed delay or is it instantaneous?

stoppedcaring
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### Re: What-If 0003:" Yoda"

Flumble wrote:
stoppedcaring wrote:And though this isn't the use of telekinesis, specifically, Obi Wan and Yoda both felt disturbances in the force from many lightyears distant -- Obi Wan when Alderaan was blown up; Yoda when Order 66 was activated. Those signals don't appear to attenuate with distance.

Concerning both this and use of the force: do these signals have a lightspeed delay or is it instantaneous?

Like most galactic-scale sci-fi, Star Wars uses presumed hyperspace time, where traversing a two-way wormhole causes the same amount of time to elapse for you as for the place you left, regardless of the length of the wormhole. So there is no lightspeed delay between any points in the galaxy.

rmsgrey
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### Re: What-If 0003:" Yoda"

stoppedcaring wrote:
Flumble wrote:
stoppedcaring wrote:And though this isn't the use of telekinesis, specifically, Obi Wan and Yoda both felt disturbances in the force from many lightyears distant -- Obi Wan when Alderaan was blown up; Yoda when Order 66 was activated. Those signals don't appear to attenuate with distance.

Concerning both this and use of the force: do these signals have a lightspeed delay or is it instantaneous?

Like most galactic-scale sci-fi, Star Wars uses presumed hyperspace time, where traversing a two-way wormhole causes the same amount of time to elapse for you as for the place you left, regardless of the length of the wormhole. So there is no lightspeed delay between any points in the galaxy.

One of the problems with the physics in Ender's Game (more apparent in the sequels) is that interstellar travel takes place at relativistic speeds and involves significant time-dilation (by Earth clocks, Ender is some 3000 years and change old in the (chronologically) later books; by personal time, he's in his mid-30s), but interstellar communication is instantaneous between paired "ansibles" which ignore relativity and privilege Earth's reference frame - or at least something close to it - a ship moving at relativistic speed relative to Earth and receiving timestamps via ansible measures Earth's time as massively accelerated while observing Earth by telescope (assuming for the sake of argument that it's passing Earth on a perpendicular course at great distance, so there's no Doppler shift) they would measure Earth's time as massively slowed, while on Earth both the ansible and the telescope give the same measure of ship's time (massively slowed).

Anne McCaffrey's Talents series did something interesting with the concepts in Pegasus in Space - there, the first interplanetary teleportation event sends a ship to Mars, then a light hour away, but sends it an hour into the past from Earth's perspective - the psychic "fix" is on Mars as seen through the telescope, so the time lag is already accounted for, and the ship appear in the telescopic images almost immediately - and as Earth's psychics literally drive Earth's interstellar colonisation, and maintain interstellar contact, it's all kept in order by synchronising local time with Earth time based on the first "fix" with the new place. As the idea is only introduced in the last written book in that particular setting, though an interquel, the consequences are never properly explored.

stoppedcaring
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### Re: What-If 0003:" Yoda"

Yeah, when I've written sci-fi, I just handwaved FTL travel by saying the FTL drive "pushes" through space and time at once so simultaneity is preserved from the perspective of the traveler, the start point, and the endpoint, allowing round-trip flights. It also allows an observer to see an object approaching them faster than lightspeed (because the ship moves backward in time so light and simultaneity have enough time to catch up). It's a good enough kludge for my purposes, though it would fall apart if someone tried to use it alongside sublight travel.

peregrine_crow
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### Re: What-If 0003:" Yoda"

stoppedcaring wrote:
Whizbang wrote:So a force user could lift something on another world, if he only just believed he could?

Considering that the power of the Death Star can destroy entire worlds, but is said to be insignificant in comparison to the power of the Force...yes.

I always took that more as a "Having a bazooka is not that impressive if you can only use it to blow off your own feet." kind of thing. The death star gives you the ability to destroy a planet, the force tells you which planets to destroy if you control a death star and which planets to not be on when you don't. Knowledge is power, the pen is mightier than the sword etc. etc.

Also, it doesn't really matter what weapons an army wields if a Jedi/Sith can just Jedi mind trick the person in command.
Ignorance killed the cat, curiosity was framed.