1178: "Pickup Artists"

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1178: "Pickup Artists"

Postby rhomboidal » Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:05 am UTC

Image

Title Text: It sounds like a great way to make friends! Is it near that Friend Zone you keep talking about? I wanna go!

I'll bet he's going to Tahiti with Gauguin.

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Re: 1178: "Pickup Artists"

Postby blowfishhootie » Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:06 am UTC

I really hope another self-proclaimed "pickup artist" gets offended by this comic and totally freaks out in the thread like last time it was a subject of a comic.

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Re: 1178: "Pickup Artists"

Postby Itsnotinmyidiom » Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:15 am UTC

Aww this just gave me all the hope that I lost when I found out the PUA forums were a real thing. The Internet giveth, and the Internet taketh away.
I'll think of a signature eventually, I swear. It'll be funny and stuff!

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Re: 1178: "Pickup Artists"

Postby Alsadius » Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:15 am UTC

Why do pickup artists make the world a sadder place? It's all about people getting what they want. Mind you, I have no idea why girls seem to want poorly-dressed assholes and men seem to prefer a worse money spent/sex had ratio than prostitution offers, but given that they do, pickup artists make the world a better place for all involved.

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Re: 1178: "Pickup Artists"

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:25 am UTC

blowfishhootie wrote:I really hope another self-proclaimed "pickup artist" gets offended by this comic and totally freaks out in the thread like last time it was a subject of a comic.

Are you a wizard.
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Not even sporange.

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Re: 1178: "Pickup Artists"

Postby teelo » Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:51 am UTC

Wait... what?

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Re: 1178: "Pickup Artists"

Postby tuseroni » Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:07 am UTC

ok im not sure i get this...what is a "pickup basketball player"....google seems to have failed me.
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Re: 1178: "Pickup Artists"

Postby poxic » Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:09 am UTC

A pickup game (of basketball) is assembled from whoever is hanging around and wants to play. There are no already-formed teams and such.

(I think that's accurate, anyway. If I'm not, I will be corrected shortly, I'm sure.)
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Re: 1178: "Pickup Artists"

Postby jpk » Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:10 am UTC

tuseroni wrote:ok im not sure i get this...what is a "pickup basketball player"....google seems to have failed me.



"Hey baby... wanna come back to my place and try some jump shots? If you know what I mean?"

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Re: 1178: "Pickup Artists"

Postby blowfishhootie » Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:11 am UTC

tuseroni wrote:ok im not sure i get this...what is a "pickup basketball player"....google seems to have failed me.


"Pickup basketball" is just street games. Most literally, it would be a group of people who happen to be at the same court but didn't necessarily arrive together getting a game going. Picking captains, selecting teams, stuff like that.

EDIT: What Poxic said.

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Re: 1178: "Pickup Artists"

Postby Quicksilver » Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:23 am UTC

Come on and slam and welcome to the jam?

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Re: 1178: "Pickup Artists"

Postby jpk » Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:31 am UTC

blowfishhootie wrote:
tuseroni wrote:ok im not sure i get this...what is a "pickup basketball player"....google seems to have failed me.


"Pickup basketball" is just street games. Most literally, it would be a group of people who happen to be at the same court but didn't necessarily arrive together getting a game going. Picking captains, selecting teams, stuff like that.



"Getting a game going"... yeah, like that.
(Captains? Teams? Okay, now you're getting towards kinky)

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Re: 1178: "Pickup Artists"

Postby blowfishhootie » Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:33 am UTC

jpk wrote:
blowfishhootie wrote:
tuseroni wrote:ok im not sure i get this...what is a "pickup basketball player"....google seems to have failed me.


"Pickup basketball" is just street games. Most literally, it would be a group of people who happen to be at the same court but didn't necessarily arrive together getting a game going. Picking captains, selecting teams, stuff like that.



"Getting a game going"... yeah, like that.
(Captains? Teams? Okay, now you're getting towards kinky)


24-second shot clock optional.

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Re: 1178: "Pickup Artists"

Postby CuBr » Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:36 am UTC

Alsadius wrote:I have no idea why girls seem to want poorly-dressed assholes and men seem to prefer a worse money spent/sex had ratio than prostitution offers

Assumes facts not in evidence.

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Re: 1178: "Pickup Artists"

Postby San Fran Sam » Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:56 am UTC

jpk wrote:
tuseroni wrote:ok im not sure i get this...what is a "pickup basketball player"....google seems to have failed me.



"Hey baby... wanna come back to my place and try some jump shots? If you know what I mean?"


"I really like the look of your backboard."

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Re: 1178: "Pickup Artists"

Postby Khrushy » Mon Feb 25, 2013 7:04 am UTC

blowfishhootie wrote:
jpk wrote:
blowfishhootie wrote:
tuseroni wrote:ok im not sure i get this...what is a "pickup basketball player"....google seems to have failed me.


"Pickup basketball" is just street games. Most literally, it would be a group of people who happen to be at the same court but didn't necessarily arrive together getting a game going. Picking captains, selecting teams, stuff like that.



"Getting a game going"... yeah, like that.
(Captains? Teams? Okay, now you're getting towards kinky)


24-second shot clock optional.

You just made todays comic worthwhile. And covered part of my desk in coffee.

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Re: 1178: "Pickup Artists"

Postby OP Tipping » Mon Feb 25, 2013 7:06 am UTC

Wait, isn't a pickup artist someone who makes beautiful designs on pick-ups? I saw a great one with three wolves and a moon.

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Re: 1178: "Pickup Artists"

Postby Alsadius » Mon Feb 25, 2013 7:40 am UTC

CuBr wrote:
Alsadius wrote:I have no idea why girls seem to want poorly-dressed assholes and men seem to prefer a worse money spent/sex had ratio than prostitution offers

Assumes facts not in evidence.

Mockery is always admissible in court.

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Re: 1178: "Pickup Artists"

Postby morsus854 » Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:03 am UTC

I don't get why people think pickup artistry is so creepy. All it serves is to teach men how to be more attractive to women. Which really ends up just being self help that uses success with women as a lure. Which makes sense, because being a happy, confident, well adjusted person makes you more attractive and able to maintain a relationship (which is the real goal of most people on the pickup forums).

I never got into the one night stand side of pickup, but after reading it's forums for a few years and using the info to practice and actively become a better person, I've went from being miserable to happy with my life. My current two year relationship never would've happened had I not researched pickup to improve myself.

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Re: 1178: "Pickup Artists"

Postby TimXCampbell » Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:19 am UTC

Alsadius wrote:I have no idea why girls seem to want poorly-dressed assholes

I'm pretty sure the technique of pick-uppity (is that a word?) involves dressing for success. If you have “no idea” why some women will fall for it, you're overlooking the fact that it's a con-job. These guys will work the mark just as surely as a fake psychic; they know which buttons to push and so on.

... and men seem to prefer a worse money spent/sex had ratio than prostitution offers ...

I imagine their ego is boosted far more than it could be by simply paying for it in a straight-forward business arrangement. It's the thrill of the hunt, I guess.

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Re: 1178: "Pickup Artists"

Postby Alsadius » Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:44 am UTC

I believe the term you're looking for is "picking up". And I don't doubt that it works - it's a ruthlessly efficient sales methodology if I've ever seen one - I just have a low opinion of the people it works on.

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Re: 1178: "Pickup Artists"

Postby speising » Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:05 am UTC

"i would never fall for that" is the whole reason why it works in the first place.

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Re: 1178: "Pickup Artists"

Postby Kethryes » Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:30 am UTC

For the PUA debate post there : http://forums.xkcd.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=81485
...
Oh wait you can't it's locked. I wonder why. I guess we just have to start a new one here!
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Re: 1178: "Pickup Artists"

Postby Thad Ex Machina » Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:35 am UTC

Oh, fantastic!

As of late I was feeling rather down because of the strong undercurrent of misogyny that I see in reddit and YouTube comments, fueled--especially in reddit's case--by thriving communities of MRAs and PUAs. So thanks Randall, this made me smile.

Granted, I don't play basketball... but whatever. Really, any kind of game that isn't planned could be a pickup game. With the prevalence of smartphones, we could have pickup chess games. Or, as I often have my deck, perhaps a pickup game of We Didn't Playtest This At All.

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Re: 1178: "Pickup Artists"

Postby rmsgrey » Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:38 am UTC

morsus854 wrote:I don't get why people think pickup artistry is so creepy. All it serves is to teach men how to be more attractive to women. Which really ends up just being self help that uses success with women as a lure. Which makes sense, because being a happy, confident, well adjusted person makes you more attractive and able to maintain a relationship (which is the real goal of most people on the pickup forums).


It's marketed as a legal alternative to date-rape drugs and prostitution - "just pay me money and I'll teach you these simple techniques that will guarantee you get laid as often as you want". Portraying women as will-less automata who just need the right magic words spoken in order to have sex with someone is not uncreepy.

The actual content is secondary since it's the marketing that people see...

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Re: 1178: "Pickup Artists"

Postby J Thomas » Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:50 am UTC

morsus854 wrote:I don't get why people think pickup artistry is so creepy. All it serves is to teach men how to be more attractive to women. Which really ends up just being self help that uses success with women as a lure. Which makes sense, because being a happy, confident, well adjusted person makes you more attractive and able to maintain a relationship (which is the real goal of most people on the pickup forums).


You probably aren't going to get it, either. You'll just get a lot of abuse.

I'll try to explain, though. A lot of people think that people should only have sex when they are truly in love. It should happen entirely by accident, with no forethought by either partner.

They get disgusted at the thought of men who purposely try to make themselves more attractive, or who try to seduce women. They get disgusted at the thought of a woman who sees that a man finds her desirable and who chooses to have sex with him on short notice without an intense commitment (unless of course it happens to her completely by accident. In that case she's an innocent victim).

They mostly don't and can't explain their position rationally. Perhaps because the more they see it discussed, the more disgusted they get. That doesn't mean they are wrong. It doesn't mean they are right. It means, the more you get their attention the more poo they'll throw at you.

I never got into the one night stand side of pickup, but after reading it's forums for a few years and using the info to practice and actively become a better person, I've went from being miserable to happy with my life. My current two year relationship never would've happened had I not researched pickup to improve myself.


In all fairness, it's hard to be sure how things would have to be if they were different. It isn't impossible if you had not done any of that you would have fallen into this relationship or another just as good entirely by accident.
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Re: 1178: "Pickup Artists"

Postby philip1201 » Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:00 am UTC

morsus854 wrote:I don't get why people think pickup artistry is so creepy. All it serves is to teach men how to be more attractive to women. Which really ends up just being self help that uses success with women as a lure. Which makes sense, because being a happy, confident, well adjusted person makes you more attractive and able to maintain a relationship (which is the real goal of most people on the pickup forums).

I never got into the one night stand side of pickup, but after reading it's forums for a few years and using the info to practice and actively become a better person, I've went from being miserable to happy with my life. My current two year relationship never would've happened had I not researched pickup to improve myself.


1. It's evolutionarily profitable to hate pickup artists. Labeling others as people who ought not have sex increases your probability of having sex. They're the male version of sluts.
2. As advertised, it's disingenuous. Pickup artists will say anything as long as it gets them consensual sex. It's faking the mating dance by training specifically how to optimize that, which defeats the point of mating dances, which is to get a representative impression of the potential partner. In one word: it's cheating.

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Re: 1178: "Pickup Artists"

Postby J L » Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:46 am UTC

OP Tipping wrote:Wait, isn't a pickup artist someone who makes beautiful designs on pick-ups? I saw a great one with three wolves and a moon.


I thought people driving around and painting in the truck bed. Party!

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Re: 1178: "Pickup Artists"

Postby peewee_RotA » Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:50 am UTC

I tried this concept of pickup basketball player. Lebron wasn't amused and a bit too heavy for me to carry.
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Re: 1178: "Pickup Artists"

Postby peewee_RotA » Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:51 am UTC

San Fran Sam wrote:
jpk wrote:
tuseroni wrote:ok im not sure i get this...what is a "pickup basketball player"....google seems to have failed me.



"Hey baby... wanna come back to my place and try some jump shots? If you know what I mean?"


"I really like the look of your backboard."


"I hope this ends with us going to a court"
"Vowels have trouble getting married in Canada. They can’t pronounce their O’s."

http://timelesstherpg.wordpress.com/about/

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Re: 1178: "Pickup Artists"

Postby J Thomas » Mon Feb 25, 2013 12:11 pm UTC

philip1201 wrote:
morsus854 wrote:I don't get why people think pickup artistry is so creepy. All it serves is to teach men how to be more attractive to women. Which really ends up just being self help that uses success with women as a lure. Which makes sense, because being a happy, confident, well adjusted person makes you more attractive and able to maintain a relationship (which is the real goal of most people on the pickup forums).

I never got into the one night stand side of pickup, but after reading it's forums for a few years and using the info to practice and actively become a better person, I've went from being miserable to happy with my life. My current two year relationship never would've happened had I not researched pickup to improve myself.


1. It's evolutionarily profitable to hate pickup artists. Labeling others as people who ought not have sex increases your probability of having sex. They're the male version of sluts.


If a lot of pregnancies went to term from this, then it might matter for evolution. Given efficient contraception and abortion, it's more just going through the motions.

2. As advertised, it's disingenuous. Pickup artists will say anything as long as it gets them consensual sex. It's faking the mating dance by training specifically how to optimize that, which defeats the point of mating dances, which is to get a representative impression of the potential partner. In one word: it's cheating.


A man who tries to fake being a woman's long-term soul-mate so he can have sex with her immediately, is storing up trouble for himself. There is a strong chance if she is looking for a long-term relationship she will not have sex with him quickly. He must maintain his act for too long, and then when her prince turns into a toad she is likely to freak out. I am not an expert in such things but I have the impression that these guys try to stress finding women who are interested in casual sex. If nobody is interested in being actually optimal for the children, then what does it matter if he plays Darth Vader and she plays Princess Leia? They have their fun and then afterward they don't need to maintain the roles.

At least that's the theory. If it's just people having fun together with no long-term consequences, what's the harm? Men who want short-term sex should try to avoid women who want only long-term true love, because it drives the women crazy and then the men have to deal with crazy women.

If you're concerned there may be serious long-term consequences, don't do it.

One possible long-term consequence? If the woman gets the man's phone number or address, she might turn up a year later because she is broke, sick, and has nowhere to go. If he lets her stay overnight his wife or girlfriend will likely be upset. She may steal things to pawn. Etc. But if he slams the door in her face he will likely feel awful.
The Law of Fives is true. I see it everywhere I look for it.

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Re: 1178: "Pickup Artists"

Postby Thad Ex Machina » Mon Feb 25, 2013 12:19 pm UTC

morsus854 wrote:I don't get why people think pickup artistry is so creepy. All it serves is to teach men how to be more attractive to women. Which really ends up just being self help that uses success with women as a lure. Which makes sense, because being a happy, confident, well adjusted person makes you more attractive and able to maintain a relationship (which is the real goal of most people on the pickup forums).


The thing I find most distasteful about Pickup Artistry is that it perpetuates reductive and downright damaging perspectives on both women and men. They sell a view of women that, while claiming to simply "take them off pedestals," in practice frames women as hack-able sex dispensers. For example, the whole concept of overcoming LMR (Last-Minute Resistance, in PUA-speak) is essentially finding a way to manipulate a woman into having sex when she has already said "No." The chemical version of this is straight-up date-rape drugs. Coercion ¬ consent.

The idea of "teaching men how to be more attractive to women" is also inherently problematic. There isn't one way. It just flat-out doesn't exist. My wife is attracted to tall, skinny nerds (so, lucky me). Other women are attracted to big hairy dudes. Some women are attracted to other women. There is neither one type of woman nor one type of man. The closest thing there is to "being more attractive to women" is to 1) Get comfortable with who you are and 2) find women who would be into that guy.

None of the big, influential PUA groups I've run across are about building confidence in yourself. They focus on turning you into someone else (hence all the trumpeting of being cocky/funny or being alpha rather that beta, as though that meant anything). Often, somebody modeled after the founders of that particular group.

Plus, there's the fact that a lot of PUA rhetoric rather blatantly/hilariously aims their manipulation techniques at their own audience. Calling non-PUA men Average Frustrated Chumps, for example, is straight-up negging. twerking newcomers into feeling inadequate so they'll want to prove themselves to the community (by buying and absorbing the right books, or attending paid workshops, for example).

And that's just the tip of the iceberg. Don't get me started on that pseudo-scientific evolutionary psychology dreck they tend to push. Blegh.

morsus854 wrote:I never got into the one night stand side of pickup, but after reading it's forums for a few years and using the info to practice and actively become a better person, I've went from being miserable to happy with my life. My current two year relationship never would've happened had I not researched pickup to improve myself.


Hey, if you managed to pull advice that helped improve your life out of PUA communities, then good on you. But in terms of what I've read on various forums and blogs, you're an outlier. If there are more like you among the PUA communities, they are awfully quiet.

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Re: 1178: "Pickup Artists"

Postby Belästiger » Mon Feb 25, 2013 1:03 pm UTC

morsus854 wrote:I don't get why people think pickup artistry is so creepy. All it serves is to teach men how to be more attractive to women. Which really ends up just being self help that uses success with women as a lure. Which makes sense, because being a happy, confident, well adjusted person makes you more attractive and able to maintain a relationship (which is the real goal of most people on the pickup forums).

I never got into the one night stand side of pickup, but after reading it's forums for a few years and using the info to practice and actively become a better person, I've went from being miserable to happy with my life. My current two year relationship never would've happened had I not researched pickup to improve myself.


Because it's manipulative on purpose and that's a shitty way of treating other people.

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Re: 1178: "Pickup Artists"

Postby blob » Mon Feb 25, 2013 1:10 pm UTC

Similarly, the world is made brighter by assuming that a Rules Girl is one who knows the rules for numerous sports (or board games)!
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Re: 1178: "Pickup Artists"

Postby peewee_RotA » Mon Feb 25, 2013 1:14 pm UTC

J Thomas wrote:what does it matter if he plays Darth Vader and she plays Princess Leia?


I'm confused. Are you advocating incest, or having sex by force?
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Re: 1178: "Pickup Artists"

Postby paradoxa » Mon Feb 25, 2013 1:24 pm UTC

For those that want to paint pickup artists with a brush a mile wide, I ask: Do you hate salesman? You know, the guy that sells you the shirt, or the printer, or the new car, or the pump for your engineering project? Do you think they are unethical? Oh, you realize that some salesmen are sleazeballs that will say anything to get the sale, lying through their teeth in the process, and that other salesmen just happen to be suave and charismatic all the while being truthful and make a sale partly based on their own skill and not just on the absolute quality of fit of the product?

You do realize this? Then why the HELL can't you realize that not all "pickup artists" are the same, not all lie, not all manipulate - nor would I say it's even most.

Sadly, I'm certain this will again devolve into fight over definitions and, even worse, a tirade by some against people improving themselves at all.

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Re: 1178: "Pickup Artists"

Postby philip1201 » Mon Feb 25, 2013 1:25 pm UTC

J Thomas wrote:If a lot of pregnancies went to term from this, then it might matter for evolution. Given efficient contraception and abortion, it's more just going through the motions.

Evolution does not work that way. We don't contain an explicit imperative to maximize genetic payload, we just execute behaviors which exist because our ancestors managed to produce offspring while expressing them.

2. As advertised, it's disingenuous. Pickup artists will say anything as long as it gets them consensual sex. It's faking the mating dance by training specifically how to optimize that, which defeats the point of mating dances, which is to get a representative impression of the potential partner. In one word: it's cheating.


A man who tries to fake being a woman's long-term soul-mate so he can have sex with her immediately, is storing up trouble for himself. There is a strong chance if she is looking for a long-term relationship she will not have sex with him quickly. He must maintain his act for too long, and then when her prince turns into a toad she is likely to freak out. I am not an expert in such things but I have the impression that these guys try to stress finding women who are interested in casual sex. If nobody is interested in being actually optimal for the children, then what does it matter if he plays Darth Vader and she plays Princess Leia? They have their fun and then afterward they don't need to maintain the roles.


Have you met people? There is no binary switch between casual and long term. There is no (advertised) consideration for the wishes of the object. Pickup artistry aims to convince women to consent to casual sex, through emotional manipulation and other methods. Like using leading questions in a poll, the end result can not be considered to be representative of the people's wishes.

At least that's the theory. If it's just people having fun together with no long-term consequences, what's the harm? Men who want short-term sex should try to avoid women who want only long-term true love, because it drives the women crazy and then the men have to deal with crazy women.

If you're concerned there may be serious long-term consequences, don't do it.


Unfortunately, I'm an altruist. When pickup artists manipulate others into having sex with them, those people get hurt (emotionally).

One possible long-term consequence? If the woman gets the man's phone number or address, she might turn up a year later because she is broke, sick, and has nowhere to go. If he lets her stay overnight his wife or girlfriend will likely be upset. She may steal things to pawn. Etc. But if he slams the door in her face he will likely feel awful.


... you're a selfish asshole.

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Re: 1178: "Pickup Artists"

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon Feb 25, 2013 1:30 pm UTC

Alsadius wrote:I believe the term you're looking for is "picking up". And I don't doubt that it works - it's a ruthlessly efficient sales methodology if I've ever seen one - I just have a low opinion of the people it works on.


I think this is a rather good underlining of the problem; instead, you should have a low of opinion of the people who use it.

This whole 'don't hate the player, hate the game' attitude is sophomoric and for jackasses.
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Re: 1178: "Pickup Artists"

Postby project2051 » Mon Feb 25, 2013 1:42 pm UTC

The Friend Zone sounds like fun. It's like an arcade or some place like Chuck E. Cheese's right?

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Belästiger
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Re: 1178: "Pickup Artists"

Postby Belästiger » Mon Feb 25, 2013 1:45 pm UTC

project2051 wrote:The Friend Zone sounds like fun. It's like an arcade or some place like Chuck E. Cheese's right?

So after the Friend Zone comes the Fordbidden Zone? Let's go find out what goes on there.

Spoiler:
Turns out it's just the janitors room. Hey, let's go ride the brooms and wear bucket helmets.


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