morsus854 wrote: Jave D wrote:
morsus854 wrote:I don't get why people think pickup artistry is so creepy. All it serves is to teach men how to be more attractive to women. Which really ends up just being self help that uses success with women as a lure. Which makes sense, because being a happy, confident, well adjusted person makes you more attractive and able to maintain a relationship (which is the real goal of most people on the pickup forums).
How exactly do you claim to know what the "real" goal is for "most" people on those forums is? Because that's quite the claim. I could well counter with "manipulating women into giving a guy sex in order to feel better about himself is the real goal of most guys on the pickup forums."
You tend to attract people that are somewhat similar to you. I've read plenty of stories of guys on the forums whom before they worked on improving themselves attracted drug addicts, bipolar women, people who would slash their tires or throw shit through their windows when they were in a bad mood. And the point of those stories was always that once they learned this self help stuff they started attracting emotionally healthy women. If you consider that turning you into a different person, I'd make the change in a heart beat given the choice.
Bipolar women? Yeah, fuck them! Mental illness must be shunned.
Good points. During the years I spent reading the forums I saw occasional threads asking people what their real goal is and why they're studying this stuff. Some people really did say stuff like "I want to get laid 6 nights a week and have threesomes at least once a month." More commonly though, I saw responses like, "I want a monogamous relationship." Maybe this doesn't accurately show what most people want, but I believe the people posting were honest with their responses and that there were enough people responding thus that it's a fairly common desire.
Yah, maybe that bipolar comment makes me a dick, but I don't want to date one. Everyone has their own values and things they want in a significant other. Two things I value are emotional stability and ability to be rational regardless of the situation. That's my preference, but to each their own.
1. Oh, it may be common, but is it more
common? You stated that it was in fact the
real goal of most
guys on that forum, but is that bold statement of seeming fact really the result of some kind of objective, rational analysis? I am inclined to think that it isn't - that your desire to defend this community is coloring your recollections with a bias and that perhaps you simply wish that's how it was, choosing to overlook the seedy nature of the origins of your wholesome self-improvement spin. Which is natural, I would too, because it's really quite ugly. A 1 out of 10, really. A warpig, as they say.
2. My point is not that you're a dick, but that this whole process smacks of superficiality. The example you mention is but one in many, and the generic tale is this: "Before I learned PUA, I was an average frustrated chump who could only get occasional sex from average or ugly looking women. Now I'm awesome because I can get any hot girl I want!" Everything is rated in terms of the number, ease, and frequency one can manipulate a woman into sleeping with you - and how attractive she is. That's not self-improvement at all. The self remains unchanged. The fear of women and the fear of rejection? Still there, no matter how many girls you can pick up at the bar and no matter how free of the taint of mental illness they may be. Only it's transformed - instead of manifesting as shyness, it manifests as a casual, flippant attitude towards women and sex in general. Or perhaps a cruel hostility, hiding under a mask of easygoing likability. Measuring "self" improvement by how others behave, i.e. they want to fuck you more, or give you more money, just doesn't work, or else Hugh Hefner and Donald Trump have better "selves," that is to say, they don't just get more sex or have more money, the sex and money is a sign that they are better people.
Sort of like how mentally ill women are used as a sign, in your example, of being a non-improved self, that is to say, inferior people.
Aaaand I don't buy that.
An improved self can overlook and accept flaws and find joy and contentment with less-than-perfect people, and less than perfect situations too. But PUA is about the opposite - its goal is about changing people you surround yourself with (i.e, more attractive women in your sex and romance life), and changing situations you're in, so that your current self can be satisfied with them. Because why change yourself? Just change the trappings. Buy a new car, become a better person!