1178: "Pickup Artists"

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J Thomas
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Re: 1178: "Pickup Artists"

Postby J Thomas » Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:28 pm UTC

morsus854 wrote:The guy that said people hate puas because it feels like cheating and they don't want someone else getting a leg up on the game has the right idea. Also people think it should be a natural thing and I understand how breaking it down to a science is considered creeping.

Also interesting how 3/4 of the people that responded to my post ignored half it's content.


Some people get disgusted and throw poo.

There are two styles of pickup.


Surely more than two.

I will describe my background in this. First, I read Richard Feynman's description. Feynman had no idea how to pick up women in Las Vegas, and an expert told him how. First the man did some stuff to get Feynman to trust him. Then when Feynman was actually ready to listen, he said "You just ask her". Don't buy her drinks, don't buy her dinners, don't give her jewelry. Just ask her.

Feynman then expanded this into fullfledged negging. I thought he missed the point. Women hanging around bars in Las Vegas, who are not prostitutes. A fair number of them will say yes tonight to somebody who asks, if somebody asks. But he has to ask. Feynman needed to do negging to build up his own confidence enough to ask. Using intense negging he had sex with a disgusting manipulative bitchy woman.

Later I got curious about something called NLP. They made extreme claims for some sort of science-based skills. I didn't want to pay much, and I didn't want to take their classes -- if they were frauds I'd waste time and money, while if they had weird powers I wasn't sure I trusted them with my mind. I looked up what I could find out about them on the Internet, and back then there was an active Usenet group in which big names in NLP contributed regularly. I found that most of what they taught was simple obvious stuff, but they taught it in a way that people actually learned it. Part of that was promoting themselves as experts, or gods or something, so that students would actually pay attention. Part of it was making simple obvious things look mystical and strange. Students used it more and better when they didn't understand it, because when they did understand it they trivialized it. They taught a simple technique where you absorb whatever you can from an expert, and then when you are doing the task you pretend you are the expert. It doesn't give you knowledge you don't have, but it keeps you from dithering. The teachers had their students pretend to be them. There was nothing unusual about any of it except that they taught it in a way that actually worked.

As I watched them I gradually noticed that there were a lot of prestigious NLP teachers who didn't have enough money. They taught their students that they were wonderful people. They taught their students to be like them. The salesmen who took NLP classes to make people buy walked away, but a lot of the rest felt like it was the best thing in the world to be an NLP teacher. The more classes they taught the worse their competition.

While most NLP teachers were barely scraping by, a few found a new market. Find a psychological skill that people desperately want and supply it to them. They noticed there were lots of men who were too intimidated to talk to women, and they started teaching them to be more confident. Quickly they divided up the market. Some men were just timid. Some were enraged that no woman would ever want them. Some imagined women as ideal alien inhuman beings that they could never understand. Etc. The teaching methods that worked for one batch of men would fail for the next. So they targeted their advertising to one type at a time.

Imagine a 32 year old virgin who is angry at women. They could so easily give him what he wants but they never think to, because they want to keep control of a scarce resource.... This guy doesn't need a teacher, he needs the bomb squad. The teachers would collect whole classes of guys like that and convince them that by pretending to be perfectly normal men they could manipulate women into having sex with them. In reality all they had to do was act normal and go places that available women go, and Just Ask Her, and they could have sex. They needed to think they were using secret magic mind control because that's what kind of people they were. When a guy like that finds that 5% or more of eligible women are willing to have casual sex with him, that's a good start toward defusing that bomb. Is he going to be upset that his magic mind control doesn't work 100%? No.

Meanwhile the majority of NLP teachers were moaning that they couldn't make a living teaching NLP. They didn't want to use NLP to find new market niches. They wanted to be NLP teachers. That was how they imagined themselves. There might have been other market niches they expanded in besides shy men, but if so they were carefully not mentioning it.

That "shy men" market wasn't just supplied by NLP retreads. Anybody could move in and cut out his own niche market. Men who fantasized having lots of bi women at once. Men who fantasized controlling slavegirls. Men who'd like to imagine themselves pimps. If they had their own slant and they could get enough customers together to pay expenses, they could market their own brand.

So here's this little industry, and some of it looks kind of disgusting -- it caters to men who start out even more disgusting. Men who have been failed by society and kind of curdled inside. People like AngrySquirrel look at the more disgusting advertising, and hear about the more disgusting "techniques", and assume they know what the whole thing is about.

It does no good to discuss it with them. They are not open to discussion.

"I say it's spinach and I say the hell with it."

I know I wouldn't be in my current relationship without this because I use to be too shy to talk to girls, extremely needy, judgemental, and had no confidence. I used this info to build myself into an entirely different person.


That is entirely to your credit. You got tools and you used them to good purpose. Somebody else might have used the same tools to turn himself into an utter asshole. I like to think that people who felt hopeless, who find that there are possibilities for them, will usually try for their greatest hopes. But sometimes they sell themselves short. A man who could not bring himself to any personal relationship at all with any woman, may grow into someone who can handle women who want to be impersonally dominated, and stop there.
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Re: 1178: "Pickup Artists"

Postby FireZs » Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:36 pm UTC

Meaux_Pas wrote:
FireZs wrote:
The Mighty Thesaurus wrote:Why are PUA apologists never the women who have been picked up?


How about the reverse? I'm curious if there're any "PUA surviviors" around who can share their stories of having sex with a man they thought was attractive, only to learn later about PUAs and realize that the man tricked them into thinking so. There're plenty of stories of women who learned about PUAs and then rejected men for being PUA-like, but I've never heard of a woman who had sex with a man who used PUA tactics, learned about PUA tactics later, and re-classified her previous experience as a negative one.

Pretty sure I read some of those over at Jezebel.com recently.
Actually, most of the ladies got a ways into the date and laughed at the dude a lot and left, so I could be wrong. maybe that's a different story.


Yeah, every female account of actual experiences with PUAs I've read (besides the few that defend PUAs) involves prior knowledge of PUAs and PUA tactics, so the man is quickly rejected, and the date/encounter never gets close to the sexual stage. There's never been an article on Jezebel titled "I had sex with a PUA without knowing what a PUA was, and now I feel like I was raped," and knowing Jezebel, they would put that article up in a heartbeat if it existed; it would be pure pageview gold.

The question is: why do we never see those types of accounts? Thinking about it a bit, the simplest explanation is probably the correct one: PUA tactics don't actually work. They will never cause a woman who didn't want to have sex with you to have sex with you. All it does is help you avoid being disqualified after starting from a position of potential sexual partner to a woman. Unless, of course, the woman already knows about PUA tactics, in which case that would disqualify you in and of itself. So really, PUA tactics are most likely a net loss for most men at this point, especially as more women become aware of the existence of PUA tactics. As other posters have said, the positive aspects of PUA (disqualification avoidance) can be learned from other sources, so there's no real reason to associate with PUAs or the PUA culture.
Last edited by FireZs on Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:01 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 1178: "Pickup Artists"

Postby Blake » Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:42 pm UTC

I don't think anyone is saying "Pickup artists have extraordinary power and are mind controlling women," though. They're saying that the problem with PUA culture is the way it encourages men to think about women.

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Re: 1178: "Pickup Artists"

Postby cellocgw » Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:50 pm UTC

tuseroni wrote:ok im not sure i get this...what is a "pickup basketball player"....google seems to have failed me.


It's a basketball player who doubles as a limo driver for Car Talk.

(for those who don't know what Car Talk, or maybe radio, is, their pun-laden signoff includes "our Russian limo driver is Pikupp Andropov"
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Re: 1178: "Pickup Artists"

Postby cellocgw » Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:52 pm UTC

morsus854 wrote:I don't get why people think pickup artistry is so creepy. All it serves is to teach men how to be more attractive to women. Which really ends up just being self help that uses success with women as a lure. Which makes sense, because being a happy, confident, well adjusted person makes you more attractive and able to maintain a relationship (which is the real goal of most people on the pickup forums).

I never got into the one night stand side of pickup, but after reading it's forums for a few years and using the info to practice and actively become a better person, I've went from being miserable to happy with my life. My current two year relationship never would've happened had I not researched pickup to improve myself.


Actually the forums did little to help you . The real kicker was your 3wolfmoon tshirt.
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Re: 1178: "Pickup Artists"

Postby FireZs » Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:55 pm UTC

Blake wrote:I don't think anyone is saying "Pickup artists have extraordinary power and are mind controlling women," though. They're saying that the problem with PUA culture is the way it encourages men to think about women.


Yes, the way that PUA culture encourages men to think about women is unhealthy and problematic, and the valuable aspects of what PUAs teach can be learned without those attitudes. I've said as much many times before. However, there've been many accusations of PUAs "manipulating/lying to" women to get them to have sex with them, with the implication that without such tactics, the women would not have had sex with them, and are therefore victimized in some way. That's the point I'm addressing.

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Re: 1178: "Pickup Artists"

Postby Aphelion » Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:56 pm UTC

Okay, finally registered to put in my two cents on this pickup artist BS, because I'm an actual female who's encountered this actual technique on the receiving end.

For a bit of background: according to most of the males I interact with I'm reasonably attractive, but on the 'curvy' end of the spectrum. I also have some fairly crippling self-esteem issues. (SURPRISE! The girl who rejected you has self-esteem issues too! BECAUSE SHE'S A PERSON!) What most PUAs consider to be "harmless teasing" will make me shut down and withdraw instantaneously from the conversation. I don't care about whether you're "putting me on a pedestal" or whatever bullsh*t these guys spout, I don't want to screw a guy who implies I'm fat or clumsy or dumber than them or not worth having sex with. Why the hell would I want to do that? Why would ANYONE want to do that?

But what the PUA community actually believes is that "no thank you, I'm not interested in sex" is an unacceptable answer. If a woman is not interested in you, then the objective becomes to manipulate or coerce her until the no becomes a yes.

Which is how I ended up with an asshole in a bar - when I was out to socialize with my female friends, mind you, not looking to score a one-night stand - driving me to tears, following me to my car, harassing me the entire way, calling me a fat ugly b*tch whore for not wanting to have sex with him, and then demanding I give him credit for not date-raping me when he had the chance.

That is all.

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Re: 1178: "Pickup Artists"

Postby J Thomas » Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:06 pm UTC

Jofur wrote:
Diemo wrote:What makes you think that women don't like sex as much as men do? Or is there another reason they are denying sex?


Exactly, the only reason women (I know) deny sex, is because they are afraid to be hurt.


UK LeGuin's novel City of Illusions has a scene in which the hero is wandering through a forest that includes some genetically modified telepathic animals. He has been told to avoid them. A pig finds him and says "Bespeak me! Bespeak me!" He answers "No I will not bespeak you. You are a pig". And the pig cries after him for a long time, still begging him to bespeak it. But he does not want to share minds with a pig. I think if I hadn't already known that LeGuin was a woman, I would have known then.

And really, if a woman really wanted something casual, then what good would it do to be a manipulative PUA. Why not be casual too?


A man who can easily get into something casual will not take PUA lessons, of course. Whatever would he want with them?

Someone who has learned PUA stuff enough to successfully seduce women who are trying to seduce him, may at some point relax and be more casual.
Last edited by J Thomas on Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:13 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 1178: "Pickup Artists"

Postby peewee_RotA » Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:11 pm UTC

J Thomas wrote:
peewee_RotA wrote:
J Thomas wrote:what does it matter if he plays Darth Vader and she plays Princess Leia?


I'm confused. Are you advocating incest, or having sex by force?


I'm suggesting that if people consensually want to play silly roleplaying games for limited times, it's OK. If people who consensually choose to have protected sex choose to play silly roleplaying games connected to that, it's OK.

If a man presents himself in some sort of role with the clear implication that he is interested in short-term sex, and a woman chooses to go along and chooses to play a complementary role, that's OK too. He isn't promising her that's how he will be through their entire marriage until death do them part.

What I think is not so OK is when a woman is so unsophisticated that she doesn't know how to present what she wants, and she lets him talk her into something she wants not to do. I think men really ought to watch for that and back off if it looks like it might be an issue. But apparently they usually don't. There ought to be a better way for young women to learn how to firmly say no than sheer trial and error.


I think I'm suggesting that you don't understand Star Wars jokes.
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Re: 1178: "Pickup Artists"

Postby Blake » Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:12 pm UTC

Jofur wrote:Exactly, the only reason women (I know) deny sex, is because they are afraid to be hurt


Sometimes women 'deny' sex because they don't want sex at all. Sometimes they 'deny' sex because they don't want sex at that moment or in those circumstances. Sometimes they just don't want sex with the person offering. Pretty obvious, I'd have thought.

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Re: 1178: "Pickup Artists"

Postby Thad Ex Machina » Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:33 pm UTC

J Thomas wrote:So here's this little industry, and some of it looks kind of disgusting -- it caters to men who start out even more disgusting. Men who have been failed by society and kind of curdled inside. People like AngrySquirrel look at the more disgusting advertising, and hear about the more disgusting "techniques", and assume they know what the whole thing is about.

It does no good to discuss it with them. They are not open to discussion.

I'm confused as to why those of us who, in doing our research, have found these disgusting aspects and are saying "We don't like PUAs because of these disgusting things" are the ones you're giving the boot to in this argument. Seriously? Why not level some of that at the people who are being disgusting. Because it is a non-trivial section of that community. By most regards, it's the public face of it. And also much of the face behind the public face. I mean, where are these positive and self-affirming without being degrading to women and/or men PUA communities hiding? Are there links? I'm not saying they aren't real, but I sure haven't seen them.

J Thomas wrote:
morsus854 wrote:I know I wouldn't be in my current relationship without this because I use to be too shy to talk to girls, extremely needy, judgemental, and had no confidence. I used this info to build myself into an entirely different person.


That is entirely to your credit. You got tools and you used them to good purpose. Somebody else might have used the same tools to turn himself into an utter asshole. I like to think that people who felt hopeless, who find that there are possibilities for them, will usually try for their greatest hopes. But sometimes they sell themselves short. A man who could not bring himself to any personal relationship at all with any woman, may grow into someone who can handle women who want to be impersonally dominated, and stop there.

Again: good for you, unironically and unequivocally.

But, again, the fact that people can and do (and are flat-out encouraged to) use these methodologies to become embittered, mysogynist ball-sacks is still troubling.

It's an attempt to solve a problem by creating another problem. In this case, solving shyness of some dudes by diminishing women to mathematical sex-formula that can be solved given the right inputs, regardless of what the women say or how they behave. It's great that you were able to absorb the "get over shyness" part and drop/avoid the "women are disposable cock-cozies" bits, but there are plentiful and loud voices online that buy into the whole package, hook, line, and all the rest.

My question is, why aren't you guys on the side of those of us who find that stuff disturbing? Because you can be both. If you want this community or ideology or whatever to be seen as a positive force, the creeper aspect can't be ignored just because it didn't affect you... other people clearly aren't you and were affected.

You don't have to defend the whole community and dump on us for only focusing on the misogynistic creepy stuff. You can admit the existence of and fight against they rapey vibe while arguing for whatever positive effects you're saying can be gained here. But if the knee-jerk response is to defend PUAs wholesale whenever these things come up, then yeah... you'll get ignored a lot. Because you're gesturing at trees while dismissing the big creepy forest.

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Re: 1178: "Pickup Artists"

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:45 pm UTC

FireZs wrote:However, there've been many accusations of PUAs "manipulating/lying to" women to get them to have sex with them, with the implication that without such tactics, the women would not have had sex with them, and are therefore victimized in some way.


But isn't that exactly how the PUA's advertise themselves? That women won't have sex with them otherwise?

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Re: 1178: "Pickup Artists"

Postby Jave D » Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:56 pm UTC

paradoxa wrote:For those that want to paint pickup artists with a brush a mile wide, I ask: Do you hate salesman? You know, the guy that sells you the shirt, or the printer, or the new car, or the pump for your engineering project?


...Yes?

No really, do these guys need to exist? I've never needed to be sold on buying anything. If I need something, I'll buy it. Don't really need a middle-man to convince me here.

But the salesman needs me to buy, because he gets a commission. So, his motives are self-interest and profit-seeking. And there's nothing inherently wrong with that as far as it goes - we all need to make a living - but that kind of desperate, close-the-deal type of attitude is transparent as hell (at least to me, but admittedly I'm awesome like that) and off-putting and even a little disgusting. Also since I make minimum wage and salespeople generally make rather more, I get to hate them, as a general rule. What, is the freedom of hating people not acceptable in your thought-police, liberty-hating fantasy world?

But seriously, you totally do the same thing - painting the opposition as being "against people improving themselves at all.":

Sadly, I'm certain this will again devolve into fight over definitions and, even worse, a tirade by some against people improving themselves at all.


See? If you hate PUA, you certainly very likely hate the very concept of self improvement.

No doubt, such people hate kittens and freedom too. They plot together with like-minded people to bring the advancement of the human potential to a grinding halt, for stagnation is their god, and stasis their heaven! They would see us in shackles, yet Strauss and Mystery are our saviors! Embrace salvation, ye average frustrated chumps, and see your skills and confidence bloom like the miracle of life-giving consent in what would otherwise have been a barren friend-zone field!

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Re: 1178: "Pickup Artists"

Postby FireZs » Mon Feb 25, 2013 7:04 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:
FireZs wrote:However, there've been many accusations of PUAs "manipulating/lying to" women to get them to have sex with them, with the implication that without such tactics, the women would not have had sex with them, and are therefore victimized in some way.


But isn't that exactly how the PUA's advertise themselves? That women won't have sex with them otherwise?


Yes, and what I'm saying is that they're deluding themselves. Women who sleep with them were attracted to them anyway, they just had to not fuck it up. PUA tactics can help with not fucking it up, but you don't need PUA tactics for that.

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Re: 1178: "Pickup Artists"

Postby markfiend » Mon Feb 25, 2013 7:47 pm UTC

FireZs wrote:PUA tactics can help with not fucking it up

See, I have a good deal of difficulty believing that.
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Re: 1178: "Pickup Artists"

Postby (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ » Mon Feb 25, 2013 7:56 pm UTC

FireZs wrote:
Meaux_Pas wrote:
FireZs wrote:
The Mighty Thesaurus wrote:Why are PUA apologists never the women who have been picked up?


How about the reverse? I'm curious if there're any "PUA surviviors" around who can share their stories of having sex with a man they thought was attractive, only to learn later about PUAs and realize that the man tricked them into thinking so. There're plenty of stories of women who learned about PUAs and then rejected men for being PUA-like, but I've never heard of a woman who had sex with a man who used PUA tactics, learned about PUA tactics later, and re-classified her previous experience as a negative one.

Pretty sure I read some of those over at Jezebel.com recently.
Actually, most of the ladies got a ways into the date and laughed at the dude a lot and left, so I could be wrong. maybe that's a different story.


Yeah, every female account of actual experiences with PUAs I've read (besides the few that defend PUAs) involves prior knowledge of PUAs and PUA tactics, so the man is quickly rejected, and the date/encounter never gets close to the sexual stage. There's never been an article on Jezebel titled "I had sex with a PUA without knowing what a PUA was, and now I feel like I was raped," and knowing Jezebel, they would put that article up in a heartbeat if it existed; it would be pure pageview gold.

The question is: why do we never see those types of accounts? Thinking about it a bit, the simplest explanation is probably the correct one: PUA tactics don't actually work. They will never cause a woman who didn't want to have sex with you to have sex with you. All it does is help you avoid being disqualified after starting from a position of potential sexual partner to a woman. Unless, of course, the woman already knows about PUA tactics, in which case that would disqualify you in and of itself. So really, PUA tactics are most likely a net loss for most men at this point, especially as more women become aware of the existence of PUA tactics. As other posters have said, the positive aspects of PUA (disqualification avoidance) can be learned from other sources, so there's no real reason to associate with PUAs or the PUA culture.

Not trying to pull this off topic, but I take issue with your slight moving of the goalposts. Plenty of sexual experiences can be qualified as 'negative' but then in your follow-up you jumped to rape.
Decide what you are talking about before you talk. These ladies i read of weren't 'duped' into sex so much as 'wanted something casual and ended up with something laughably bad'. I can't go grab the jezebel post cause I'm at work.
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Re: 1178: "Pickup Artists"

Postby Alsadius » Mon Feb 25, 2013 7:57 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:
Alsadius wrote:I believe the term you're looking for is "picking up". And I don't doubt that it works - it's a ruthlessly efficient sales methodology if I've ever seen one - I just have a low opinion of the people it works on.


I think this is a rather good underlining of the problem; instead, you should have a low of opinion of the people who use it.

This whole 'don't hate the player, hate the game' attitude is sophomoric and for jackasses.


That actually wasn't what I was getting at. I can respect a PUA for at least being able to get what they want. They tend to optimize for things I don't place a high value on, but they are optimizing. The women who get picked up don't seem to have the same virtue - they're letting themselves do things they don't want to do, with guys they don't want to do it with, because the guy is acting poorly*. The guys are only acting like idiots because girls reward them for it - what's the girls' excuse?

*-Note that obviously this isn't true of all women. Some genuinely want casual sex with a fun guy. They get a pass from me, just like the self-improvement side of PUA is something I've drawn a fair bit of inspiration from in my life. But if the obviously manipulative crap works on you, you're doing it wrong.

Invertin wrote:This just reminds me of the hundreds of tumblr posts that have decided that the phrase 'friend-zone' should be used within genuine friendships just to ruin the 'she didnt have sex with me when i was nice to her' meaning.


Most of the time, the meaning is "It could have been a relationship, but I waited too long and now she thinks it'd be weird". I'll agree that a lot of guys using it have serious entitlement issues, but it is a real thing.

J Thomas wrote:UK LeGuin's novel City of Illusions has a scene in which the hero is wandering through a forest that includes some genetically modified telepathic animals. He has been told to avoid them. A pig finds him and says "Bespeak me! Bespeak me!" He answers "No I will not bespeak you. You are a pig". And the pig cries after him for a long time, still begging him to bespeak it. But he does not want to share minds with a pig. I think if I hadn't already known that LeGuin was a woman, I would have known then.


Uh...what? Why does that imply a female author? Saying no to things you don't want seems a pretty universal thing.

Jave D wrote:
paradoxa wrote:For those that want to paint pickup artists with a brush a mile wide, I ask: Do you hate salesman? You know, the guy that sells you the shirt, or the printer, or the new car, or the pump for your engineering project?


...Yes?

No really, do these guys need to exist? I've never needed to be sold on buying anything. If I need something, I'll buy it. Don't really need a middle-man to convince me here.

But the salesman needs me to buy, because he gets a commission. So, his motives are self-interest and profit-seeking. And there's nothing inherently wrong with that as far as it goes - we all need to make a living - but that kind of desperate, close-the-deal type of attitude is transparent as hell (at least to me, but admittedly I'm awesome like that) and off-putting and even a little disgusting. Also since I make minimum wage and salespeople generally make rather more, I get to hate them, as a general rule. What, is the freedom of hating people not acceptable in your thought-police, liberty-hating fantasy world?


I do sales as part of my job(I'm one of those guys who tries to awkwardly upsell you every time you call my company for service), and I'm pretty good at it. People need to be sold to for 2 reasons. One, they may well not know that the product exists in the first place - how can you buy our widget coverage if you don't know we cover widgets? Two, they may not know information on how it works, what special deals they can get, or why it's applicable to their situation. A solid majority of my sales involve giving people free or low-cost promotional prices, or rebundling things they already have into a cheaper price. Most of the rest require me to give details/answer questions/etc. that the people could not practically do on their own. I take no for an answer and tell the truth about our products - just like I don't want to be a sleazy PUA, I don't want to be a sleazy salesman - but some people seem to need someone like me to make them aware of deals they want.

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Re: 1178: "Pickup Artists"

Postby morsus854 » Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:04 pm UTC

MadH wrote:
EthanW wrote:Learning Pickup changed my life, helped me see my own faults in logic and selfishness when it came to relationships. Leave everything better than when you found it.


What I'm trying to get at is anything good in PUA can be gleaned from elsewhere in the world, so we don't need PUA. What you happened to learn from a subset of PUA could have easily been learned from some other source as it's much more general information not even specifically related to getting girls. Taking away PUA doesn't take away that good information since it exists elsewhere in droves, but it does take away the seedy side of PUA.

So I again ask, why even defend PUA? You could easily tell someone, "I learned how to better myself." without mentioning PUA at all. But we have a disconnect between when fellows mention "I learned how to better myself from PUA. But not THAT PUA." They feel the need to defend PUA but put it down in the same sentence. Figure out whether you actually like PUA or not (all of it - not just part of it). I figure if you're not even associated with what really makes PUA, PUA (the "manipulating people" part), then just don't defend it. In that case you like self improvement, not PUA.


True, the majority of what I learned from rsd (the name of the group tyler runs) could have been gained from self help guru's unrelated to pickup, but I didn't know that until after I learned it. Their marketing works based around the idea that there are a great many lonely men that wish they had the social skills to be successful with women. They then tell these men that they have a way they can get women and teach them standard self help stuff. Once you've spent some time on the forums it becomes pretty obvious anyway. They often suggest reading books like iron john, the way of the superior man, eckart tolle, ayn rand, how to win friends and influence people, etc. But seeing as their goal for becoming a better person is success with women, the forums are a better place for it than a generic self help forum as you are talking with like minded people. They can give tips on various things from how to make friends with the barstaff, to tips in the bedroom for the inexperienced, to good idea's of where to take a girl when you ask her out.

cellocgw wrote:
morsus854 wrote:I don't get why people think pickup artistry is so creepy. All it serves is to teach men how to be more attractive to women. Which really ends up just being self help that uses success with women as a lure. Which makes sense, because being a happy, confident, well adjusted person makes you more attractive and able to maintain a relationship (which is the real goal of most people on the pickup forums).

I never got into the one night stand side of pickup, but after reading it's forums for a few years and using the info to practice and actively become a better person, I've went from being miserable to happy with my life. My current two year relationship never would've happened had I not researched pickup to improve myself.


Actually the forums did little to help you . The real kicker was your 3wolfmoon tshirt.


Not sure what you're getting at with the 3wolfmoon tshirt thing. The only advice I've ever seen on the rsd forums in relation to clothing is that what you're wearing is irrelevant. If you're awesome enough on the inside it'll shine through regardless of what you look like. Basic grooming and dressing nice still doesn't hurt though.

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Re: 1178: "Pickup Artists"

Postby FireZs » Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:20 pm UTC

Meaux_Pas wrote:
FireZs wrote:
Meaux_Pas wrote:
FireZs wrote:
The Mighty Thesaurus wrote:Why are PUA apologists never the women who have been picked up?


How about the reverse? I'm curious if there're any "PUA surviviors" around who can share their stories of having sex with a man they thought was attractive, only to learn later about PUAs and realize that the man tricked them into thinking so. There're plenty of stories of women who learned about PUAs and then rejected men for being PUA-like, but I've never heard of a woman who had sex with a man who used PUA tactics, learned about PUA tactics later, and re-classified her previous experience as a negative one.

Pretty sure I read some of those over at Jezebel.com recently.
Actually, most of the ladies got a ways into the date and laughed at the dude a lot and left, so I could be wrong. maybe that's a different story.


Yeah, every female account of actual experiences with PUAs I've read (besides the few that defend PUAs) involves prior knowledge of PUAs and PUA tactics, so the man is quickly rejected, and the date/encounter never gets close to the sexual stage. There's never been an article on Jezebel titled "I had sex with a PUA without knowing what a PUA was, and now I feel like I was raped," and knowing Jezebel, they would put that article up in a heartbeat if it existed; it would be pure pageview gold.

The question is: why do we never see those types of accounts? Thinking about it a bit, the simplest explanation is probably the correct one: PUA tactics don't actually work. They will never cause a woman who didn't want to have sex with you to have sex with you. All it does is help you avoid being disqualified after starting from a position of potential sexual partner to a woman. Unless, of course, the woman already knows about PUA tactics, in which case that would disqualify you in and of itself. So really, PUA tactics are most likely a net loss for most men at this point, especially as more women become aware of the existence of PUA tactics. As other posters have said, the positive aspects of PUA (disqualification avoidance) can be learned from other sources, so there's no real reason to associate with PUAs or the PUA culture.

Not trying to pull this off topic, but I take issue with your slight moving of the goalposts. Plenty of sexual experiences can be qualified as 'negative' but then in your follow-up you jumped to rape.
Decide what you are talking about before you talk. These ladies i read of weren't 'duped' into sex so much as 'wanted something casual and ended up with something laughably bad'. I can't go grab the jezebel post cause I'm at work.


Ok, let's move away from rape as a requirement here. But what I'm specifically looking for here, from the beginning, is an example of a woman who had sex with someone she thought she was attracted to, found out about PUAs later, realized that the man she had sex with was a PUA, and because of that changed her view of her prior sexual experience from positive to negative. I'm not talking about experiences that were negative throughout.

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Re: 1178: "Pickup Artists"

Postby morsus854 » Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:22 pm UTC

Thad Ex Machina wrote:
morsus854 wrote:I don't get why people think pickup artistry is so creepy. All it serves is to teach men how to be more attractive to women. Which really ends up just being self help that uses success with women as a lure. Which makes sense, because being a happy, confident, well adjusted person makes you more attractive and able to maintain a relationship (which is the real goal of most people on the pickup forums).


The thing I find most distasteful about Pickup Artistry is that it perpetuates reductive and downright damaging perspectives on both women and men. They sell a view of women that, while claiming to simply "take them off pedestals," in practice frames women as hack-able sex dispensers. For example, the whole concept of overcoming LMR (Last-Minute Resistance, in PUA-speak) is essentially finding a way to manipulate a woman into having sex when she has already said "No." The chemical version of this is straight-up date-rape drugs. Coercion ¬ consent.

The idea of "teaching men how to be more attractive to women" is also inherently problematic. There isn't one way. It just flat-out doesn't exist. My wife is attracted to tall, skinny nerds (so, lucky me). Other women are attracted to big hairy dudes. Some women are attracted to other women. There is neither one type of woman nor one type of man. The closest thing there is to "being more attractive to women" is to 1) Get comfortable with who you are and 2) find women who would be into that guy.

None of the big, influential PUA groups I've run across are about building confidence in yourself. They focus on turning you into someone else (hence all the trumpeting of being cocky/funny or being alpha rather that beta, as though that meant anything). Often, somebody modeled after the founders of that particular group.

Plus, there's the fact that a lot of PUA rhetoric rather blatantly/hilariously aims their manipulation techniques at their own audience. Calling non-PUA men Average Frustrated Chumps, for example, is straight-up negging. twerking newcomers into feeling inadequate so they'll want to prove themselves to the community (by buying and absorbing the right books, or attending paid workshops, for example).

And that's just the tip of the iceberg. Don't get me started on that pseudo-scientific evolutionary psychology dreck they tend to push. Blegh.

morsus854 wrote:I never got into the one night stand side of pickup, but after reading it's forums for a few years and using the info to practice and actively become a better person, I've went from being miserable to happy with my life. My current two year relationship never would've happened had I not researched pickup to improve myself.


Hey, if you managed to pull advice that helped improve your life out of PUA communities, then good on you. But in terms of what I've read on various forums and blogs, you're an outlier. If there are more like you among the PUA communities, they are awfully quiet.


I disagree on these two points primarily. You are correct that not everyone is attracted to the same thing, and noone can attract every girl, but there are specific traits that are widely accepted as attractive traits. Happiness, having fun, confidence(you state this one yourself), positivity, and non-neediness are almost universally attractive qualities. Ask any normal well adjusted person if they would want these traits in a significant other and they'll probably say yes. From what I can tell with my time spent studyign rsd material, this is the core of what they teach.

Whether becoming a happier more confident person turns you into someone else, maybe, maybe not. I feel like it brings out the best parts of myself. If you think those traits make you into a different person, is it such a bad change?

You tend to attract people that are somewhat similar to you. I've read plenty of stories of guys on the forums whom before they worked on improving themselves attracted drug addicts, bipolar women, people who would slash their tires or throw shit through their windows when they were in a bad mood. And the point of those stories was always that once they learned this self help stuff they started attracting emotionally healthy women. If you consider that turning you into a different person, I'd make the change in a heart beat given the choice.

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Re: 1178: "Pickup Artists"

Postby Jofur » Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:48 pm UTC

Blake wrote:
Jofur wrote:Exactly, the only reason women (I know) deny sex, is because they are afraid to be hurt


Sometimes women 'deny' sex because they don't want sex at all. Sometimes they 'deny' sex because they don't want sex at that moment or in those circumstances. Sometimes they just don't want sex with the person offering. Pretty obvious, I'd have thought.



Well yeah. I mean to say the main reason.
I suppose I was thinking a bit narrow on why a woman (Actually, anybody who cares enough, really) who wants sex would shy away from a sexual encounter.
I was specifically thinking of women being nervous of men in general because a seemingly nice guy could just be one of these PUA's. So any emotional attachment would fall through. (assuming the behavior of the typical PUA mentality)
Everybody is doing it and nobody knows why.

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Re: 1178: "Pickup Artists"

Postby (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ » Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:03 pm UTC

Generally yeah, whenever a woman decides to stop a sexual encounter it is out of fear. Not because she's capable of changing her mind for a multitude of reasons up to and including 'I just remembered Supernatural is on in half an hour'.
that was sarcasm

That you still think it's the 'main reason' troubles me. Of course it could simply be a subtle acknowledgement of the danger of just plain being a woman or someone who is considered weaker/more submissive than the person that totes wants to bone them.
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Re: 1178: "Pickup Artists"

Postby markfiend » Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:05 pm UTC

morsus854 wrote:You tend to attract people that are somewhat similar to you. I've read plenty of stories of guys on the forums whom before they worked on improving themselves attracted drug addicts, bipolar women, people who would slash their tires or throw shit through their windows when they were in a bad mood. And the point of those stories was always that once they learned this self help stuff they started attracting emotionally healthy women. If you consider that turning you into a different person, I'd make the change in a heart beat given the choice.

This just sounds like an excuse for your (not your personally, I don't know you at all, I mean you generally, the PUA) bad behaviour. "she was obviously a bitch, she threw shit through the window" when it might very well have been retaliation against the sorts of macho bullshit that PUAs get up to.

Anyway I'm drunk now so maybe not making sense.
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Re: 1178: "Pickup Artists"

Postby Belästiger » Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:15 pm UTC

AngrySquirrel wrote:Saying "a culture where sexualized violence and rape are normalized, excused, tolerated and occasionally condoned" is rather long and cumbersome.

Is that normalization & toleration the reasons they're considered punishable crimes in said culture?

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Re: 1178: "Pickup Artists"

Postby Morgan Wick » Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:15 pm UTC

morsus854 wrote:I don't get why people think pickup artistry is so creepy. All it serves is to teach men how to be more attractive to women. Which really ends up just being self help that uses success with women as a lure. Which makes sense, because being a happy, confident, well adjusted person makes you more attractive and able to maintain a relationship (which is the real goal of most people on the pickup forums).

The problem is that the specific "how" is likely to reduce your opinion of humanity several notches.

J Thomas wrote:I'll try to explain, though. A lot of people think that people should only have sex when they are truly in love. It should happen entirely by accident, with no forethought by either partner.

They get disgusted at the thought of men who purposely try to make themselves more attractive, or who try to seduce women. They get disgusted at the thought of a woman who sees that a man finds her desirable and who chooses to have sex with him on short notice without an intense commitment (unless of course it happens to her completely by accident. In that case she's an innocent victim).

They mostly don't and can't explain their position rationally. Perhaps because the more they see it discussed, the more disgusted they get. That doesn't mean they are wrong. It doesn't mean they are right. It means, the more you get their attention the more poo they'll throw at you.

That's not it either. There are people who are perfectly fine with casual sex but not so fine with, as rmsgrey put it, the idea of "women as will-less automata who just need the right magic words spoken in order to have sex with someone". Or with being "manipulative on purpose and that's a shitty way of treating other people." Not to mention that a lot of pickup seems to involve making women less happy, confident, and well-adjusted (or assuming that they aren't).

The Mighty Thesaurus wrote:Why are PUA apologists never the women who have been picked up?

I seem to recall there was one on the last thread...

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Re: 1178: "Pickup Artists"

Postby morsus854 » Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:22 pm UTC

markfiend wrote:
morsus854 wrote:You tend to attract people that are somewhat similar to you. I've read plenty of stories of guys on the forums whom before they worked on improving themselves attracted drug addicts, bipolar women, people who would slash their tires or throw shit through their windows when they were in a bad mood. And the point of those stories was always that once they learned this self help stuff they started attracting emotionally healthy women. If you consider that turning you into a different person, I'd make the change in a heart beat given the choice.

This just sounds like an excuse for your (not your personally, I don't know you at all, I mean you generally, the PUA) bad behaviour. "she was obviously a bitch, she threw shit through the window" when it might very well have been retaliation against the sorts of macho bullshit that PUAs get up to.

Anyway I'm drunk now so maybe not making sense.


No, what you're saying makes sense. I may not have fully explained the situation though, that was before they learned about any pua stuff. They very well may have had women act like that because they were being a jackass, but regardless that was before they discovered the self help pua stuff. I see how the examples I gave are possibly retaliatory behavior, but those were just the first things that came to my mind. The point of their stories generally pointed out that the women they were able to attract had emotional issues just as bad as they did before discovering rsd and focused on self help.

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Re: 1178: "Pickup Artists"

Postby Jofur » Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:25 pm UTC

Meaux_Pas wrote:Generally yeah, whenever a woman decides to stop a sexual encounter it is out of fear. Not because she's capable of changing her mind for a multitude of reasons up to and including 'I just remembered Supernatural is on in half an hour'.
that was sarcasm

That you still think it's the 'main reason' troubles me. Of course it could simply be a subtle acknowledgement of the danger of just plain being a woman or someone who is considered weaker/more submissive than the person that totes wants to bone them.


You know, it might just be because I'm from Flint. Through college I'm gradually entering a more relaxed and thoughtful way of thinking. (Being away from all the blight)

And your arguments have boiled down my statement to: People often can't immediately trust other people because there's a chance that the other person could be a dickbag. And that sucks.
..
And that's just a general statement about people.
...
dammit. ha ha
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Re: 1178: "Pickup Artists"

Postby MadH » Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:29 pm UTC

morsus854 wrote:True, the majority of what I learned from rsd (the name of the group tyler runs) could have been gained from self help guru's unrelated to pickup, but I didn't know that until after I learned it. Their marketing works based around the idea that there are a great many lonely men that wish they had the social skills to be successful with women. They then tell these men that they have a way they can get women and teach them standard self help stuff. Once you've spent some time on the forums it becomes pretty obvious anyway. They often suggest reading books like iron john, the way of the superior man, eckart tolle, ayn rand, how to win friends and influence people, etc. But seeing as their goal for becoming a better person is success with women, the forums are a better place for it than a generic self help forum as you are talking with like minded people. They can give tips on various things from how to make friends with the barstaff, to tips in the bedroom for the inexperienced, to good idea's of where to take a girl when you ask her out.


If you hadn't guessed, my implied finale was "And if you decide that you want to defend PUA ideology for this one good thing that you can find elsewere, then I will think you are a bad person"

(You got bonus points for not only figuring out PUA, but sticking around with them, and on top of it admitting that self-help and dating forums that fit your needs can be found in other places)

So, as long as you're okay with that it seems like we understand each other.

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Re: 1178: "Pickup Artists"

Postby Jave D » Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:36 pm UTC

morsus854 wrote:I don't get why people think pickup artistry is so creepy. All it serves is to teach men how to be more attractive to women. Which really ends up just being self help that uses success with women as a lure. Which makes sense, because being a happy, confident, well adjusted person makes you more attractive and able to maintain a relationship (which is the real goal of most people on the pickup forums).


How exactly do you claim to know what the "real" goal is for "most" people on those forums is? Because that's quite the claim. I could well counter with "manipulating women into giving a guy sex in order to feel better about himself is the real goal of most guys on the pickup forums."

You tend to attract people that are somewhat similar to you. I've read plenty of stories of guys on the forums whom before they worked on improving themselves attracted drug addicts, bipolar women, people who would slash their tires or throw shit through their windows when they were in a bad mood. And the point of those stories was always that once they learned this self help stuff they started attracting emotionally healthy women. If you consider that turning you into a different person, I'd make the change in a heart beat given the choice.


Bipolar women? Yeah, fuck them! Mental illness must be shunned.

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Re: 1178: "Pickup Artists"

Postby wysinwyg » Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:40 pm UTC

Belästiger wrote:
AngrySquirrel wrote:Saying "a culture where sexualized violence and rape are normalized, excused, tolerated and occasionally condoned" is rather long and cumbersome.

Is that normalization & toleration the reasons they're considered punishable crimes in said culture?


No, it's why those crimes are almost never prosecuted in said culture. Law and culture are not synonyms believe it or not.

When a woman reports a rape invariably someone will ask "what were you wearing?" Do you think it's a complete non sequitir or do you think it might have something to do with putting the blame for the crime on the victim, e.g. normalizing, excusing, tolerating, or condoning the crime? "No means yes, yes means anal." Never heard that one before?

You're really going to have to bend over backwards to argue that our culture doesn't encourage sexual objectification of women including trivialization of a woman's consent. Keep going, though, it should be pretty funny.

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Re: 1178: "Pickup Artists"

Postby morsus854 » Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:53 pm UTC

MadH wrote:
morsus854 wrote:True, the majority of what I learned from rsd (the name of the group tyler runs) could have been gained from self help guru's unrelated to pickup, but I didn't know that until after I learned it. Their marketing works based around the idea that there are a great many lonely men that wish they had the social skills to be successful with women. They then tell these men that they have a way they can get women and teach them standard self help stuff. Once you've spent some time on the forums it becomes pretty obvious anyway. They often suggest reading books like iron john, the way of the superior man, eckart tolle, ayn rand, how to win friends and influence people, etc. But seeing as their goal for becoming a better person is success with women, the forums are a better place for it than a generic self help forum as you are talking with like minded people. They can give tips on various things from how to make friends with the barstaff, to tips in the bedroom for the inexperienced, to good idea's of where to take a girl when you ask her out.


If you hadn't guessed, my implied finale was "And if you decide that you want to defend PUA ideology for this one good thing that you can find elsewere, then I will think you are a bad person"

(You got bonus points for not only figuring out PUA, but sticking around with them, and on top of it admitting that self-help and dating forums that fit your needs can be found in other places)

So, as long as you're okay with that it seems like we understand each other.



Even though I said the majority of what I learned as far as self help could've have been learned elsewhere, I would still choose the same route again given the choice. Given my lack of experience with women at the time, the tips on little details given by more experienced men was invaluable imo. It's also nice being on a forum and feeling like part of the group growing together and encouraging each other.

The only downside is I never met anyone irl that followed the rsd style. I went out with a few of the rehearsed lines style of pua a few times, but their style came off so wrong and fake to me we couldn't maintain the same vibe while interacting with groups of people at the club. Continued hanging out with them in social circle, but that's it.

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Re: 1178: "Pickup Artists"

Postby morsus854 » Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:02 pm UTC

Jave D wrote:
morsus854 wrote:I don't get why people think pickup artistry is so creepy. All it serves is to teach men how to be more attractive to women. Which really ends up just being self help that uses success with women as a lure. Which makes sense, because being a happy, confident, well adjusted person makes you more attractive and able to maintain a relationship (which is the real goal of most people on the pickup forums).


How exactly do you claim to know what the "real" goal is for "most" people on those forums is? Because that's quite the claim. I could well counter with "manipulating women into giving a guy sex in order to feel better about himself is the real goal of most guys on the pickup forums."

You tend to attract people that are somewhat similar to you. I've read plenty of stories of guys on the forums whom before they worked on improving themselves attracted drug addicts, bipolar women, people who would slash their tires or throw shit through their windows when they were in a bad mood. And the point of those stories was always that once they learned this self help stuff they started attracting emotionally healthy women. If you consider that turning you into a different person, I'd make the change in a heart beat given the choice.


Bipolar women? Yeah, fuck them! Mental illness must be shunned.



Good points. During the years I spent reading the forums I saw occasional threads asking people what their real goal is and why they're studying this stuff. Some people really did say stuff like "I want to get laid 6 nights a week and have threesomes at least once a month." More commonly though, I saw responses like, "I want a monogamous relationship." Maybe this doesn't accurately show what most people want, but I believe the people posting were honest with their responses and that there were enough people responding thus that it's a fairly common desire.

Yah, maybe that bipolar comment makes me a dick, but I don't want to date one. Everyone has their own values and things they want in a significant other. Two things I value are emotional stability and ability to be rational regardless of the situation. That's my preference, but to each their own.

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Re: 1178: "Pickup Artists"

Postby ShifterCat » Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:05 pm UTC

Relevant to the discussion, and also amusing:

http://slacktory.com/2013/02/okc_ebooks-deconstructs-online-pick-up-lines-with-horse_ebooks-tweets/

PUAs trying to seduce a Twitterbot. The results are as revealing and hilarious as one could expect.
Last edited by ShifterCat on Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:06 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 1178: "Pickup Artists"

Postby Wnderer » Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:06 pm UTC

No! No! No! If Randall wants to resurrect a stupid thread it should be the Galilean Transform one.

pickup_artists.png


There I fixed it.

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Re: 1178: "Pickup Artists"

Postby ShifterCat » Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:17 pm UTC

Belästiger wrote:
AngrySquirrel wrote:Saying "a culture where sexualized violence and rape are normalized, excused, tolerated and occasionally condoned" is rather long and cumbersome.

Is that normalization & toleration the reasons they're considered punishable crimes in said culture?


Oh, sure, patriarchal culture will punish rape. But only if it's, you know, legitimate rape. If there's even the tiniest suspicion that the victim is "impure", or if she knew her rapist at all, well, she's not really a victim. And hey, boys will be boys, let's not ruin this promising young man's future, there's a lot of he-said-she-said...

Consider that a lot of men will admit to having committed rape, so long as it's not described as rape. http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2009/11/12/meet-the-predators/

There's a reason why there are so many unreported sexual assaults, and why those that are reported rarely make it to court, much less conviction.

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Re: 1178: "Pickup Artists"

Postby Aphelion » Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:20 pm UTC

ShifterCat wrote:Oh, sure, patriarchal culture will punish rape. But only if it's, you know, legitimate rape. If there's even the tiniest suspicion that the victim is "impure", or if she knew her rapist at all, well, she's not really a victim. And hey, boys will be boys, let's not ruin this promising young man's future, there's a lot of he-said-she-said...


Don't forget that if a woman has consented to have an alcoholic drink in the presence of a man, she's "asking for it" and should be assumed to have consented to everything else!

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Re: 1178: "Pickup Artists"

Postby (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ » Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:24 pm UTC

morsus854 wrote:Yah, maybe that bipolar comment makes me a dick, but I don't want to date one. Everyone has their own values and things they want in a significant other. Two things I value are emotional stability and ability to be rational regardless of the situation. That's my preference, but to each their own.

Maybe nothing- it definitely makes you a dick. Your comment and this subsequent one shows a gross misunderstanding of what being bipolar even is. But by all means, lump all 'bipolar women' into the same category so you can ignore them as people.
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Re: 1178: "Pickup Artists"

Postby FireZs » Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:31 pm UTC

ShifterCat wrote:Oh, sure, patriarchal culture will punish rape. But only if it's, you know, legitimate rape. If there's even the tiniest suspicion that the victim is "impure", or if she knew her rapist at all, well, she's not really a victim. And hey, boys will be boys, let's not ruin this promising young man's future, there's a lot of he-said-she-said...

Consider that a lot of men will admit to having committed rape, so long as it's not described as rape. http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2009/11/12/meet-the-predators/

There's a reason why there are so many unreported sexual assaults, and why those that are reported rarely make it to court, much less conviction.


Also, don't forget the widespread social acceptance of prison rape, and male-on-male rapes in general. Rape culture is basically the attitude that "some rapes are less tragic than others," and the least tragic rape of all to society is a man being raped.

Aphelion
Posts: 3
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:49 pm UTC

Re: 1178: "Pickup Artists"

Postby Aphelion » Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:35 pm UTC

FireZs wrote:Also, don't forget the widespread social acceptance of prison rape, and male-on-male rapes in general. Rape culture is basically the attitude that "some rapes are less tragic than others," and the least tragic rape of all to society is a man being raped.


This, too.

Honestly, it's a near-perfect example of how sexism hurts EVERYONE. Because of the general stereotypes - "all men want sex, all the time" and "women withhold sex from men to get things from them" - there is a widespread and frankly toxic belief that a woman can't rape a man, especially a straight man. Because what kind of straight man wouldn't want to have sex with a woman, right?

ShifterCat
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Jul 11, 2010 3:43 am UTC

Re: 1178: "Pickup Artists"

Postby ShifterCat » Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:36 pm UTC

FireZs wrote:
ShifterCat wrote:Oh, sure, patriarchal culture will punish rape. But only if it's, you know, legitimate rape. If there's even the tiniest suspicion that the victim is "impure", or if she knew her rapist at all, well, she's not really a victim. And hey, boys will be boys, let's not ruin this promising young man's future, there's a lot of he-said-she-said...

Consider that a lot of men will admit to having committed rape, so long as it's not described as rape. http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2009/11/12/meet-the-predators/

There's a reason why there are so many unreported sexual assaults, and why those that are reported rarely make it to court, much less conviction.


Also, don't forget the widespread social acceptance of prison rape, and male-on-male rapes in general. Rape culture is basically the attitude that "some rapes are less tragic than others," and the least tragic rape of all to society is a man being raped.


True dat.


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