## 1190: "Time"

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a_s_h_e_n
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### Re: 1190: "Time"

ClimbONG

Tock: Look, son, it's bad enough wasting time without killing it.

keithl
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### Re: 1190: "Time"

charlie_grumbles wrote:
nerdsniped wrote:
keithl wrote:Safety of various shoreline places:

The volume of the Mediterranean is 3,750,000 km3, the average depth is 1,500m, so the average distance the water falls is 750m. The energy generated by filling that huge volume with water is 3.75E6 km3 x 1e12 kg/km3 x 750m x 9.8 m/s2 or 2.7e22 joules.

What happens to all that energy?
Spoiler:
The Reynolds number through the Gibraltar gap is enormous ( inertia effects >> viscosity effects ), and even larger through all the various gaps between mountains and islands - it will take a very long time for the energy to dissipate in viscosity, evaporation, etc. So water pours in through the gap, water accelerates throughout the Atlantic towards the gap, develops a lot of momentum, pours into the Mediterranean basin - and keeps moving, long after 3,750,000 km3 has passed through. It's like releasing a weight suspended by a spring; the weight will drop, bounce on the spring, and bounce back above the original level of release.

Well, that's what's going to happen with a Mediterranean's worth of water, until there's been enough Time to couple all that potential and kinetic energy into viscosity and evaporation. And like the bouncing spring, the water may have waves as high the the Mediterranean is deep. Indeed, given the complex reflections off the irregularly shaped bottom and sides, there may be waves even higher. There may be sporadic waves lapping up to the Pyrenees, the Alps, through gaps in the Apennines entirely across Italy. This is NOT an overdamped system.

Much depends on how big a gap is torn through GiIbraltar - for major, impossible-to-flee-on-foot changes to occur in days or even weeks, the gap must be large and the acceleration of the seawater stupendous. At those scales, the "overflow" and rebound waves will be far higher than Chateau d'If, a few meters above sea level.

Here in Oregon, there is sand on tops of 100 foot cliffs from the 1700 AD tsunami, caused by a 9+ earthquake in the Cascadia subduction zone. We know exactly when that tsunami happened, because the waves reached Japan many hours later and killed people. It wiped out almost all of the near-shore Indian tribes in the Pacific Northwest, and only chance topography saved a few tribes farther up the hills. These enormous subduction zone quakes happen about every 300 years. One is likely to happen before this wiki posting goes off line, and I expect some enterprising but idiotic reporter will find this posting after that terrible event, and create mass panic in Italy.

Great analysis!
It does seem like the castle is not going to be a wise place to ride things out, even if it is known to be above the ultimate sea level...

I don't have a lot of analysis to back it up, but this seems like an overestimate of the effects. The mountain ranges north and south of the opening limit the possible flow. A lot of friction will dissipate some of the energy (grinding of rocks, ...) A Mediterranean's worth of water isn't being dumped in all at once at one end. Locally, on the edge of their current sea it will be quite violent, but as it fills, the rate of rise slows.

Anyway. Seems too bad to be true.

Apropos of nothing, one of my favorite bits of doggerel is a short poem by L.F. Richardson, the pioneer of numerical meteorology:

Bigger whorls have smaller whorls that feed on their velocity,
and smaller whorls have lesser whorls and so on to viscosity.

At very large scales, friction is much less of an effect compared to inertia. That is what Reynolds number means. Think about this as a cascade of billions of football-field-sized bowling balls, rolling in from the Atlantic at near mach speeds, flying over the Gibraltar gap, tumbling and bouncing off each other with near-perfect elasticity. This will be more like atmospheric physics, with weather fronts and hurricanes, instead of a normal-sized river flowing over a large waterfall. If any barriers remain in the way (say a few hundred vertical and a few thousand horizontal meters of rock) they will be sent flying in the maelstrom. This is kilo-mountains of mass smashing into mass, and material strength and surface friction is not relevant for long. The flow will pick up megatons of rock, hurtling that into the rock of the gap, cutting a deeper and wider channel.

The water has 1000 times the mass density of air, and is moving a whole lot faster. Indeed, the mass of the water that ends up in the basin (about 3.8e18 kilograms) is comparable to the entire earth's atmosphere (5.3e18 kilograms). Inertial effects could fill overfill the basin with a surge of 1e18 kilograms more, oscillating and draining back out for months.

Intuition fails. The human mind is not designed to grasp flows on this scale. By the time the bottom of the western basin is covered, the flow is still rapidly increasing as vast regions of the Atlantic converge on the gap, speeding up as they approach.

For those of you with electrical intuition, think of closing a switch from a voltage source, through an inductor, to a capacitor. As long as there is a positive potential difference across the inductor, the current increases. The current is maximum when the potential difference is zero.

The currents into the Med will be highest when the water levels just outside and inside the gap are equal, and the water far inside the gap will be accelerating downhill and eastward towards its distant final destinations. The viscous shear layer at the bottom of the flow will probably be less than a meter thick, though there will be rolling turbulence for hundreds or thousands of meters above that. Turbulence on that scale does not dissipate energy rapidly, it just turns into more turbulence, acting as rollers under the surging mass of water overhead. When two masses of water smash into each other with different velocities, the masses won't stop, they will spout upwards at the interface. Inertia!

Look at videos of the water pouring uphill into Sendai during the Tohoku earthquake and tsunami. Then multiply by very big numbers.

Angelastic
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### Re: 1190: "Time"

NINJONG!

(I was wondering whether they were enterong or climbing, but I chose enterong and a_s_h_e_n chose climbong)
Spoiler:
ENTERONG?

Really, several ongs I couldn't get despite being all prepared, and then two in a row? Oh; not really.
Last edited by Angelastic on Sun Jul 21, 2013 1:05 am UTC, edited 2 times in total.
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charlie_grumbles
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### Re: 1190: "Time"

Actually going back through the tunnel.
Lurking. Watching. Thinking. Writing. Waiting.
-- Charlie Grumbles

a_s_h_e_n
Posts: 72
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### Re: 1190: "Time"

charlie_grumbles wrote:Actually going back through the tunnel.

You're right, that slipped my mind for whatever reason
Tock: Look, son, it's bad enough wasting time without killing it.

edo
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### Re: 1190: "Time"

So I did a little research re latitude:
Chateau d'If: 43.2808
The starry night was less than two days journey, perhaps no lower than 42.5 degrees

We were a bit off (3 degrees personally) thoughts?

By the way, since we have actual locations, we can look at the geohashes...
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bighaben
Posts: 26
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### Re: 1190: "Time"

It's probably part of a breakwater system. I don't know much about the area but I imagine there are some large ports and harbors on the south coast of France.

Arky
Posts: 183
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### Re: 1190: "Time"

AnotherKevin wrote:My personal Naismith Rule is that I can do a little over 3 mph sustained on paved roads. Off road, I figure 30 minutes to the mile, 40-45 minutes per thousand feet of elevation change. OK, I'm a little slow. The big question is, what fraction of their waking time do Cueball and Megan need to spend looking after resupply? Because a week to make the trip - what is it, about 150 miles? - wouldn't be horrible even for me with good support, but would be really tough for our protagonists if they're carrying all their food, and impossible unless they can replenish their water (from the Rhône?) once or twice a day.

We know that they've found a vineyard and a few molberry bushes on the way, but that's not going to provide much in the way of nutrition. Of course, GLR could wave his hands and let them have elven-magical waybread or something, I suppose. But he's typically made his comics 99̇⁴⁴∕₁₀₀% elf-free, so he may have something else up his sleeve.

Some things clearly take place off camera, such as toilet breaks. I thought the implication was they were carrying food and got restocked by the Beanies, rather than doing significant off-camera foraging though. We have seen what their water situation is, and that does put a crimp in them straying too far from the river in their return home.
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taixzo
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### Re: 1190: "Time"

yappobiscuits wrote:Molpity molpity up up up!

Not sure if this was intentional, but I read that to the tune of I like to be in America from West Side Story.

AnotherKevin wrote:Hmm. Just musing: It seems as if hikers are commoner among OTTers than the general population, or even the general geek population (which is different; ESR once observed that a geek thinks nothing of wearing climbing boots to work, just in case a mountain might suddenly arise in the server room). Is it just that hikers are more captivated by the OTT, or more likely to post? Or is it merely a false impression I'm gathering? In any case, there are a lot of people here who wouldn't give me a blank look if I mentioned Naismith's Rule (even though they might give me an eyeroll).

My personal Naismith Rule is that I can do a little over 3 mph sustained on paved roads. Off road, I figure 30 minutes to the mile, 40-45 minutes per thousand feet of elevation change. OK, I'm a little slow. The big question is, what fraction of their waking time do Cueball and Megan need to spend looking after resupply? Because a week to make the trip - what is it, about 150 miles? - wouldn't be horrible even for me with good support, but would be really tough for our protagonists if they're carrying all their food, and impossible unless they can replenish their water (from the Rhône?) once or twice a day.

We know that they've found a vineyard and a few molberry bushes on the way, but that's not going to provide much in the way of nutrition. Of course, GLR could wave his hands and let them have elven-magical waybread or something, I suppose. But he's typically made his comics 99̇⁴⁴∕₁₀₀% elf-free, so he may have something else up his sleeve.

Just thought I'd reply to this - I can sustain around 4.5 mph unladen, and around 3 mph with a large backpack. But, it's much less than that if I'm hiking uphill.
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CasCat
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### Re: 1190: "Time"

You know, it's probably been said before and I missed or forgot it, but it suddenly occurred to me what the steam bottle(ugh) is. It's a very small portable still.

They live on the shore of a hyper-salty sea, with an unreliable river as their main water source. The steam bottle distills salt water -- or urine -- into potable water -- by turning it into steam. And collecting it in a bottle.

Hence the "ugh". You may know intellectually it's distilled, but that doesn't make it emotionally attractive to drink from.

Make sense? The discussion over their water supply on their run back brought this to mind.
BlitzGirl the Fast the First

charlie_grumbles
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### Re: 1190: "Time"

keithl wrote:Look at videos of the water pouring uphill into Sendai during the Tohoku earthquake and tsunami. Then multiply by very big numbers.

This isn't my field, of course, but I still think it isn't the same. I'm not sure why you are comparing it to a tsunami that took place over a 500km front and focused its energy into a concave region of the Japan coast.

Yes, I understand that the numbers are huge. However, this happened before. Is there evidence that such massive effects occurred along the Mediterranean then? You said:
keithl wrote:There may be sporadic waves lapping up to the Pyrenees, the Alps, through gaps in the Apennines entirely across Italy.
Wouldn't there be salt and/or gypsum deposits left behind? Or some evidence at least? Eratics (boulders) where they shouldn't be, etc. Such things persist a long time.

The other thing I wonder about (and have no knowledge of) is whether the huge energies would cause a lot of the water to boil away, dissipating some energy as steam.

If you had a large shutter like structure at one end of the Med (300km wide 2km deep) and suddenly opened it (scale of days) then yes, I can see your scenario. But I don't see it here. You sound like you have studied this stuff and I respect that, but it still seems too big.
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yappobiscuits
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### Re: 1190: "Time"

taixzo wrote:
yappobiscuits wrote:Molpity molpity up up up!

Not sure if this was intentional, but I read that to the tune of I like to be in America from West Side Story.

Not intentional, but now I can't unhear it
OTTscars results Pt. 2 coming... eventually, but not from me. Seeking writer.
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BytEfLUSh
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### Re: 1190: "Time"

Blindpost from 1171:

higgs-boson wrote:
Angua wrote:Ring

Zorin_75 wrote:HiONG

Did you ever wonder what would have happened if that guy would have had knowledge of Cuegan's language?

No? Let me show you:

Spoiler:

(redundance)
Spoiler:
Meeeooooow!
it_happens_1.png

it_happens_2.png

I actually LOL'd, great stuff!

-- Professor Dan, The Man from Earth (paraphrased)

melmel
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### Re: 1190: "Time"

Delurking to say thanks so much to all of you for your dedication as you document Time. I watched as the firstpix rolled in but left for a while. I came back two (heretical) weeks ago, blitzed through the OTT and here I am. I'd offer up a sacrifice of thank you cake to you all but I can't post images yet, so instead take a bite of my heartfelt gratitude. Thanks!

fhorn
Posts: 422
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### Re: 30+page ketchup

AluisioASG wrote:I said there would be cakes.
fhorn
Spoiler:

thank you, Aluisio!
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jjjdavidson
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### Re: 1190: "Time"

keithl wrote:
Spoiler:
charlie_grumbles wrote:
nerdsniped wrote:
keithl wrote:Safety of various shoreline places:

The volume of the Mediterranean is 3,750,000 km3, the average depth is 1,500m, so the average distance the water falls is 750m. The energy generated by filling that huge volume with water is 3.75E6 km3 x 1e12 kg/km3 x 750m x 9.8 m/s2 or 2.7e22 joules.

What happens to all that energy?
The Reynolds number through the Gibraltar gap is enormous ( inertia effects >> viscosity effects ), and even larger through all the various gaps between mountains and islands - it will take a very long time for the energy to dissipate in viscosity, evaporation, etc. So water pours in through the gap, water accelerates throughout the Atlantic towards the gap, develops a lot of momentum, pours into the Mediterranean basin - and keeps moving, long after 3,750,000 km3 has passed through. It's like releasing a weight suspended by a spring; the weight will drop, bounce on the spring, and bounce back above the original level of release.

Well, that's what's going to happen with a Mediterranean's worth of water, until there's been enough Time to couple all that potential and kinetic energy into viscosity and evaporation. And like the bouncing spring, the water may have waves as high the the Mediterranean is deep. Indeed, given the complex reflections off the irregularly shaped bottom and sides, there may be waves even higher. There may be sporadic waves lapping up to the Pyrenees, the Alps, through gaps in the Apennines entirely across Italy. This is NOT an overdamped system.

Much depends on how big a gap is torn through GiIbraltar - for major, impossible-to-flee-on-foot changes to occur in days or even weeks, the gap must be large and the acceleration of the seawater stupendous. At those scales, the "overflow" and rebound waves will be far higher than Chateau d'If, a few meters above sea level.

Here in Oregon, there is sand on tops of 100 foot cliffs from the 1700 AD tsunami, caused by a 9+ earthquake in the Cascadia subduction zone. We know exactly when that tsunami happened, because the waves reached Japan many hours later and killed people. It wiped out almost all of the near-shore Indian tribes in the Pacific Northwest, and only chance topography saved a few tribes farther up the hills. These enormous subduction zone quakes happen about every 300 years. One is likely to happen before this wiki posting goes off line, and I expect some enterprising but idiotic reporter will find this posting after that terrible event, and create mass panic in Italy.

Great analysis!
It does seem like the castle is not going to be a wise place to ride things out, even if it is known to be above the ultimate sea level...

I don't have a lot of analysis to back it up, but this seems like an overestimate of the effects. The mountain ranges north and south of the opening limit the possible flow. A lot of friction will dissipate some of the energy (grinding of rocks, ...) A Mediterranean's worth of water isn't being dumped in all at once at one end. Locally, on the edge of their current sea it will be quite violent, but as it fills, the rate of rise slows.

Anyway. Seems too bad to be true.

Apropos of nothing, one of my favorite bits of doggerel is a short poem by L.F. Richardson, the pioneer of numerical meteorology:

Bigger whorls have smaller whorls that feed on their velocity,
and smaller whorls have lesser whorls and so on to viscosity.

At very large scales, friction is much less of an effect compared to inertia. That is what Reynolds number means. Think about this as a cascade of billions of football-field-sized bowling balls, rolling in from the Atlantic at near mach speeds, flying over the Gibraltar gap, tumbling and bouncing off each other with near-perfect elasticity. This will be more like atmospheric physics, with weather fronts and hurricanes, instead of a normal-sized river flowing over a large waterfall. If any barriers remain in the way (say a few hundred vertical and a few thousand horizontal meters of rock) they will be sent flying in the maelstrom. This is kilo-mountains of mass smashing into mass, and material strength and surface friction is not relevant for long. The flow will pick up megatons of rock, hurtling that into the rock of the gap, cutting a deeper and wider channel.

The water has 1000 times the mass density of air, and is moving a whole lot faster. Indeed, the mass of the water that ends up in the basin (about 3.8e18 kilograms) is comparable to the entire earth's atmosphere (5.3e18 kilograms). Inertial effects could fill overfill the basin with a surge of 1e18 kilograms more, oscillating and draining back out for months.

Intuition fails. The human mind is not designed to grasp flows on this scale. By the time the bottom of the western basin is covered, the flow is still rapidly increasing as vast regions of the Atlantic converge on the gap, speeding up as they approach.

For those of you with electrical intuition, think of closing a switch from a voltage source, through an inductor, to a capacitor. As long as there is a positive potential difference across the inductor, the current increases. The current is maximum when the potential difference is zero.

The currents into the Med will be highest when the water levels just outside and inside the gap are equal, and the water far inside the gap will be accelerating downhill and eastward towards its distant final destinations. The viscous shear layer at the bottom of the flow will probably be less than a meter thick, though there will be rolling turbulence for hundreds or thousands of meters above that. Turbulence on that scale does not dissipate energy rapidly, it just turns into more turbulence, acting as rollers under the surging mass of water overhead. When two masses of water smash into each other with different velocities, the masses won't stop, they will spout upwards at the interface. Inertia!

Look at videos of the water pouring uphill into Sendai during the Tohoku earthquake and tsunami. Then multiply by very big numbers.

You're right; intuition fails here, and I don't have the technical background you clearly have. Thanks for the input!

Two questions: ① Are you thinking that the inflow will build such momentum that the Med will actually over-fill and then backwash? I have no idea what the normal Atlantic currents west of Morocco and Iberia are, nor how much of a Gibraltar-ward current could develop in the Atlantic itself; remember, we're talking of this happening in only a few days or weeks. ② The inflow current will be flowing strongly eastward, toward Sardinia and southern Italy; that's where the inertia from the inflow will go. Flow to the northward will be partly from gravity, and partly from diversion off Sardinia. Any thoughts on how much this will reduce the impact or overrun at Marseilles?

higgs-boson wrote:[snippety clippety] Erm, by the way - this could be a problem.

I strongly believe in European craftsmanship. But do I expect the Château d'If to last more than 10'000 years?

None of the contemporary photos of the Château show the large luminous windows we've been seeing. I think it's safe to assume that the Château has been renovated (and made more tourist-friendly) more than once in its myriadennium history.

myriennium? myriaennium? myriannium?

yappobiscuits wrote:
BlitzGirl wrote:No Time to reflect; it's Time now to RUN. (And to get wedding hairdo did and blitz on my phone.)

Blitz like the wind, BlitzGirl!
Spoiler:
BlitzGirl you'd better please blitz and blitz faster
The thread is not gonna get shorter you know
Water is coming, we're growing impatient
And you've still got many newpages to go
So BlitzGirl, blitz like the wind!

I remember the day Randall posted the comic
A couple sat on a beach, it was called "Time"
How could we know that this seed would grow into
An addiction that held us, with every ONG chime

Now four months later we post with the masses
Of OTTers that hang out here waiting for it
As Great Lord Randall continues to publish
Frame upon frame each and every newpix

But now things get exciting inside
And BlitzGirl, you're stuck far behind...

BlitzGirl you'd better please blitz and blitz faster
Come back to the present, don't dwell in the past
The thread sure as hell ain't the same here without you
You're everyone's favourite Lightning Lass
So BlitzGirl, blitz like the wind!

Taixzo and CasCat took no time at all
To read through the whole thing, they are BlitzGirls the Fast
But you were the first one, we know you can do it
Just carry on blitzing your way through the past

You’re not our bitch, and you’re not a machine
And we don’t mean to dictate how you spend your days
But please bear in mind it's all kicking off here
And you don't want to get left behind in a daze

Why is it always when you're gone
That the mustard must go hit the fan?
So when the wedding is over and done
Get back in the thread and then RUN!

BlitzGirl you'd better please blitz and blitz faster
The sea won't stop rising until it's appeased
There's a hole in the present, cause something is missing
You're missed here like chirp, molpy up BlitzGirl, please!
Yes BlitzGirl, blitz like the wind!

BlitzGirl you'd better please blitz and blitz faster
Before Time is over, please blitz like the wind!

Filk of "Write Like The Wind (George RR Martin)" by Paul and Storm

I love this! "Everyone's favourite Lightning Lass" brings a grin every time. Even my wife (who has only infrequent glancing contact with the OTT) likes it.

@Rule110 and John Crowley:
Spoiler:
Rule110 wrote:[snippety clippety] John Crowley, in the wonderful and under-appreciated post-industrial future novel Engine Summer, invented "St. Bea's Bread," an alien plant/fungus (collected and brought to earth by a space probe in the final era before the collapse) that is nutritive when smoked (as in, smoked like tobacco to ingest it). That let his protagonist get on with exploring the world without it becoming a wilderness survival manual, and without all the surviving societies he meets being dominated by subsistence farming.

Engine Summer isn't just under-appreciated, it's chirping near invisible. I'm an incorrigible haunter of used-book shops, and in decades of searching for Crowley titles I've only found one copy. (Though for some reason Beasts is everywhere.) Engine Summer is a remarkable book, well worth searching for.

Can I assume you, as a Crowley fan, have read Little, Big? It's another one in the nearly-invisible category; I've never found a used copy. For those of you who've never read John Crowley, you could say that Little, Big asks the question, "What happens if it becomes time for fairy tales to come back?"
Don't worry. Feed squirpys.
Don't wait for me.
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He won! He won! He won!
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Latent22
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### Re: 1190: "Time"

OTVO Update

OTVO Script by buffgirl

Already have 5 voice submissions for the script and been working to make up samples for you to listen to. Not fair to release them until we give the others that want to submit a chance first. So we are still looking for submissions and especially potential Megan's!

Thanks.

ChronosDragon
Posts: 1852
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### Re: 1190: "Time"

Latent22 wrote:OTVO Update

OTVO Script by buffgirl

Already have 5 voice submissions for the script and been working to make up samples for you to listen to. Not fair to release them until we give the others that want to submit a chance first. So we are still looking for submissions and especially potential Megan's!

Thanks.

Make that 6, just pm'd mine to buffygirl

BlueCrab
Posts: 304
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### Re: 1190: "Time"

Newpage 1123 Not finding this firstpost thrown forward when I search, I hope I'm mistaken!

tchemgrrl wrote:
edo wrote:Mscha: Respires!

I think "respires" makes total sense, as an English speaker with enough knowledge of romance languages to either sound erudite or nonsensical. I know the long latinate words because they're usually the same in English, except when they're not. (Don't get embarrassed in Spain, that's for sure.) She also may have learned Cueganish in some other part of the world, or secondhand from a Beanish teacher with a terrible accent.

It seems like she knows enough of the similarities between the languages to know some possible words that overlay correctly, even if the context is not quite appropriate. Any bodies left in the desert don't respire much.

(Hi OTT-ers. Been following along off and on since about page 10 and this frame got me out of lurker-dom.)

Hi tchemgrrl, welcome to the OTT! I like your assessment of respires (and bodies in the desert sure don't respire for long - although they do expire for a little longer. ) I'm not sure whether I want to ask about the Spain embarrassment, or not...?
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DJ3000
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### Re: 1190: "Time"

Trying to post a pix but got blocked as spam - guess I have to post a few more times - which ironically could be called spam

BytEfLUSh
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### Re: 1190: "Time"

Paint it blackONG

Alt/Title-text still says RUN.
Last edited by BytEfLUSh on Sun Jul 21, 2013 2:03 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.

-- Professor Dan, The Man from Earth (paraphrased)

ChronosDragon
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### Re: 1190: "Time"

Inside the tunnel perhaps?

thunderrabbit
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### Re: 1190: "Time"

insta-blackout!

lgw
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### Re: 1190: "Time"

I like the theory that the glaciers have returned - after all, present day and Cuegan are all in the Quaternary Ice Age together, and glaciation is the norm, not the exception. There might have even been a glacial plug of Gibraltar, though those tend not to last long enough. We need something to explain why it's not ~60 degrees C (how do you get a degree sign??) where the 40 live! Plus the OC shows GLR was thinking about glaciers recently.

Here's the geologically-recent temperature history. You can see that warm periods come on quickly , 10 k years or less, and end somewhat quickly, 20-30k years (except the current warm anomaly, no telling on that), and then spend 50 k or so years getting gradually cooler.

Do we actually know the approximate date yet? The Starry Night prediction was off by enough to make me doubt it. Could it be 30 K + years in the future? Could it be 1 M years in the future? Rosetta talking about "our ancestors learning to walk" makes me think it might not be homo sapiens we're seeing here, and we're farther in the future, though I guess the castle wouldn't still be there (unless this is a new castle build on the same island, which isn't that far-fetched - somebody put those windows in).

Does anyone else think the big windows looks like a man with a beanie? That there might be religious overtones we're missing?
Last edited by lgw on Sun Jul 21, 2013 2:07 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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robbak
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### Re: 1190: "Time"

Various sources show a flow rate through the strait at 300km/hr. While that is huge, it makes sense for a flow a few hundred meters high with an ocean behind it and nothing in front of it.

But this, admittedly enormous, momentum runs into a humongous body of water. It would cause large currents in the Med, but not a kilometer high sloshing. If there are tsunamis, then they would be caused by undersea landslides and earthquakes, which would be common with such a rapid flooding.

BytEfLUSh
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### Re: 1190: "Time"

lgw wrote:(how do you get a degree sign??)

° ALT+0176

-- Professor Dan, The Man from Earth (paraphrased)

jjjdavidson
Posts: 652
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Location: Outside: The Ozarks, North America ─ OTTside: Lost in the 1400s

### Re: 1190: "Time"

@keithl, you were the one who first brought up seismic activity triggered by the weight of inflowing water, so I have another question: ③ How much might the Med basin and the surrounding former coastline have risen as petatons of sea water evaporated? Enough to be significant?
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Don't wait for me.
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yappobiscuits
Posts: 2841
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### Re: 1190: "Time"

jjjdavidson wrote:
yappobiscuits wrote:
BlitzGirl wrote:No Time to reflect; it's Time now to RUN. (And to get wedding hairdo did and blitz on my phone.)

Blitz like the wind, BlitzGirl!
Spoiler:
BlitzGirl you'd better please blitz and blitz faster
The thread is not gonna get shorter you know
Water is coming, we're growing impatient
And you've still got many newpages to go
So BlitzGirl, blitz like the wind!

I remember the day Randall posted the comic
A couple sat on a beach, it was called "Time"
How could we know that this seed would grow into
An addiction that held us, with every ONG chime

Now four months later we post with the masses
Of OTTers that hang out here waiting for it
As Great Lord Randall continues to publish
Frame upon frame each and every newpix

But now things get exciting inside
And BlitzGirl, you're stuck far behind...

BlitzGirl you'd better please blitz and blitz faster
Come back to the present, don't dwell in the past
The thread sure as hell ain't the same here without you
You're everyone's favourite Lightning Lass
So BlitzGirl, blitz like the wind!

Taixzo and CasCat took no time at all
To read through the whole thing, they are BlitzGirls the Fast
But you were the first one, we know you can do it
Just carry on blitzing your way through the past

You’re not our bitch, and you’re not a machine
And we don’t mean to dictate how you spend your days
But please bear in mind it's all kicking off here
And you don't want to get left behind in a daze

Why is it always when you're gone
That the mustard must go hit the fan?
So when the wedding is over and done
Get back in the thread and then RUN!

BlitzGirl you'd better please blitz and blitz faster
The sea won't stop rising until it's appeased
There's a hole in the present, cause something is missing
You're missed here like chirp, molpy up BlitzGirl, please!
Yes BlitzGirl, blitz like the wind!

BlitzGirl you'd better please blitz and blitz faster
Before Time is over, please blitz like the wind!

Filk of "Write Like The Wind (George RR Martin)" by Paul and Storm

I love this! "Everyone's favourite Lightning Lass" brings a grin every time. Even my wife (who has only infrequent glancing contact with the OTT) likes it.

Thanks Yeah, I thought of that nickname for her a while back (because alliteration is fun) and couldn't resist using it

ETA: I hope we're just in the tunnel and the sea hasn't risen that high already!
Last edited by yappobiscuits on Sun Jul 21, 2013 2:15 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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taixzo
Posts: 1607
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Location: The Present

### Re: 1190: "Time"

lgw wrote:(how do you get a degree sign??)

Cross-platform way: Type "degree" into Google. Copy from the first result.

(Also useful for most other glyphs that aren't on leopards, like "interrobang" and "cent".)
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BlitzGirl the Fast
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Sandgarden - a relaxing experience for Time Waiters

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NetWeasel
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### Re: 1190: "Time"

Ketchup Post!
Fictioneer wrote:
NetWeasel wrote:Hi, new people!
Just a note on posting your own images:
(Really, if you know this, don't bother clicking on the spoiler)

Blindposting from a few pages back to say Thank You! to NetWeasel for the instructions!

Glad to help. I haven't been here THAT long myself, so I can remember some of the weirdnesses to the system.

higgs-boson wrote:Rosetta seems quite confident that Cuegan cannot make the way back and warn their tribe in time.
Nevertheless Cuegan is running. And we remember Megan taking the map with her. Maybe she's added a plan.

I think currently the plan is to Run to a safe place, collapse, and while collapsing, check the map and make a better plan and continue in the morning.

Kieryn wrote:Did anyone theorize yet as to why the Mediterranean (presumably at the Strait of Gibraltar) was plugged up again at some point in the next few thousand years?

I had the late 21st century multi-national Locks of Hercules Project idea... Thanks to Rule 110 for remembering!

charlie_grumbles wrote:Various musings:

This seems crazy to me. You would disrupt a huge amount of commerce. Leaving millions of people farther and farther from a "beach" becoming more and more polluted and saline would be a hard sell. The salinity of the recovered land would make it difficult to utilize. And the more you let the sea drop, the hotter the climate gets generally. Small price? Nah. Huge price. And you can generate energy without damming it. There is a one way inflow at the surface now, and a one way outflow deep down (fresh v saline).

I don't like your damn idea

This is exactly why I referred to it as "locks" and not a dam. The idea was to keep the Med at the same level it was in 2000. The level difference was the Atlantic getting higher; the locks were for the trade route.
Remember waiting a half hour for one darkening pixel? Pepperidge Farms remembers...
Note To Blitzers:It is advisable NOT to go past page 1130 until you've seen up to frame 2900 (Geekwagon Numbering). A lot is happening, and really, you do not want to skip ahead at that point.

b2bomberkrh
Posts: 162
Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2013 4:50 am UTC

### Re: 1190: "Time"

jjjdavidson wrote:@keithl, you were the one who first brought up seismic activity triggered by the weight of inflowing water, so I have another question: ③ How much might the Med basin and the surrounding former coastline have risen as petatons of sea water evaporated? Enough to be significant?

Are you asking about the land rising as water evaporates due to the weight of the water not compressing the rock? Otherwise, I'm not sure I understand the question. The rock isn't going to uncompress as the water evaporates. Salt deposits are the only thing I can think of that would change the height of the seafloor as the water evaporates, and I wouldn't expect that to change the altitude by much.

DavidSpencer
Posts: 64
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### Re: 1190: "Time"

I was worried for a terrible moment that we were completely underwater. Which would have been a less than satisfactory ending.

AnotherKevin
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### Re: 1190: "Time"

taixzo wrote:Just thought I'd reply to this - I can sustain around 4.5 mph unladen, and around 3 mph with a large backpack. But, it's much less than that if I'm hiking uphill.

I told you I'm slow. I'll walk to work (on pavement) at a 4.5 mph pace carrying a backpack with a couple of big notebooks and a heavy laptop, but that's only a 15-minute walk at that pace, not sustained effort. And the "much less than that hiking uphill" was what the "plus 30-45 min per 1000 feet of elevation change" was about. More time if there's difficult terrain (dense vegetation, difficult stream crossings, swamp, rock climbing, ...) or navigational challenges.

Y'know, I might hike faster if more of my hiking were on maintained trails. Many of the most rewarding hikes in this part of the world are bushwhacks. Then again, I imagine that Cueball and Megan are also bushwhacking. But maybe not - certainly they've gone through a few areas that had considerable signs of culture. Most notable among them were the vineyard and the baobab grove (which had virtually no understory, surprising unless humans had stripped it). And their hill climbing up the continental shelf was surprisingly gentle, as if someone else had constructed a graded trail with switchbacks - and why not, given that many millennia to construct one?

And ... musing further. I don't see Cueball and Megan as Moses and Miriam leading the Forty on an exodus. I think GLR has another plot twist in mind. But we'll just have to
Spoiler:
RUN appears to be the new directive; does that supersede waiting for it?
All the rivers run into the sea, yet the sea is not full.
Unto the place from whence the rivers come, thither they return again.

NetWeasel
Posts: 297
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2013 10:08 pm UTC
Location: South Carolina, USA

### Re: 1190: "Time"

BytEfLUSh wrote:Paint it blackONG
Spoiler:
Alt/Title-text still says RUN.

Could be nightfall/sleep, I hope it's just a scene change to the inside of the encampment where they plan out their next step.

It also gives the Beanies more time to get there.
Remember waiting a half hour for one darkening pixel? Pepperidge Farms remembers...
Note To Blitzers:It is advisable NOT to go past page 1130 until you've seen up to frame 2900 (Geekwagon Numbering). A lot is happening, and really, you do not want to skip ahead at that point.

b2bomberkrh
Posts: 162
Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2013 4:50 am UTC

### Re: 1190: "Time"

ChronosDragon wrote:Inside the tunnel perhaps?

That is certainly possible. I was about to post that we never saw how they negotiated this cliff the last time they came through. I thought maybe they were staring at the rock face in front of them trying to remember how they got down. Both are pretty much just guesses, but I would think this has something to do with the cliff, and not with them just going to sleep, although I know that's what a blackout was used for before, it would seem odd to have it in without them talking about stopping, especially since they intended to get back to the tower.

ucim
Posts: 6701
Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:23 pm UTC

### Re: 1190: "Time"

MolpyChirpin' Awesome!

I'll PM my OTVO "audition" shortly... been a bit ill and busy at the same time (not a great combo).

Jose
Order of the Sillies, Honoris Causam - bestowed by charlie_grumbles on NP 859 * OTTscar winner: Wordsmith - bestowed by yappobiscuts and the OTT on NP 1832 * Ecclesiastical Calendar of the Order of the Holy Contradiction * Heartfelt thanks from addams and from me - you really made a difference.

jjjdavidson
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Location: Outside: The Ozarks, North America ─ OTTside: Lost in the 1400s

### Re: 1190: "Time"

b2bomberkrh wrote:
jjjdavidson wrote:@keithl, you were the one who first brought up seismic activity triggered by the weight of inflowing water, so I have another question: ③ How much might the Med basin and the surrounding former coastline have risen as petatons of sea water evaporated? Enough to be significant?

Are you asking about the land rising as water evaporates due to the weight of the water not compressing the rock? Otherwise, I'm not sure I understand the question. The rock isn't going to uncompress as the water evaporates. Salt deposits are the only thing I can think of that would change the height of the seafloor as the water evaporates, and I wouldn't expect that to change the altitude by much.

No, I'm thinking about the earth's crust floating on the more-or-less liquid mantle. As I understand it, the rigid lithosphere is thicker and goes deeper under mountain ranges, due to the weight of rock. So I'm wondering: As the weight of the Med is reduced by evaporation, does the mantle push up the sea floor (and the coastline rigidly connected to it)?

robbak wrote:Various sources show a flow rate through the strait at 300km/hr. While that is huge, it makes sense for a flow a few hundred meters high with an ocean behind it and nothing in front of it.

But this, admittedly enormous, momentum runs into a humongous body of water. It would cause large currents in the Med, but not a kilometer high sloshing. If there are tsunamis, then they would be caused by undersea landslides and earthquakes, which would be common with such a rapid flooding.

Remember, we're starting with a mostly-empty Med basin. I think what keithl is saying is that, with a catastrophic refill that happens in weeks, practically the entire Med would be the current ─ that you'd have a mass of water 2000 miles long all moving eastward, to eventually wash over Lebanon and Syria.
Last edited by jjjdavidson on Sun Jul 21, 2013 2:44 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.

NetWeasel
Posts: 297
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2013 10:08 pm UTC
Location: South Carolina, USA

### Re: 1190: "Time"

b2bomberkrh wrote:
ChronosDragon wrote:Inside the tunnel perhaps?

That is certainly possible. I was about to post that we never saw how they negotiated this cliff the last time they came through. I thought maybe they were staring at the rock face in front of them trying to remember how they got down. Both are pretty much just guesses, but I would think this has something to do with the cliff, and not with them just going to sleep, although I know that's what a blackout was used for before, it would seem odd to have it in without them talking about stopping, especially since they intended to get back to the tower.

If you look at Geekwagon frames 2748-2752, you'll see they never came down the "cliff" at all. They either went through or around. Also, that is where the encampment is. The second tower they saw is just on the other side of what you're calling the "cliff."
They weren't heading for the tower; they were headed for the only safe place to sleep, which is right next to the tower.
Which is where they are now.
Remember waiting a half hour for one darkening pixel? Pepperidge Farms remembers...
Note To Blitzers:It is advisable NOT to go past page 1130 until you've seen up to frame 2900 (Geekwagon Numbering). A lot is happening, and really, you do not want to skip ahead at that point.

AnotherKevin
Posts: 88
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Location: Upriver in the hills
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### Re: 1190: "Time"

NetWeasel wrote:
BytEfLUSh wrote:Paint it blackONG
Spoiler:
Alt/Title-text still says RUN.

Could be nightfall/sleep, I hope it's just a scene change to the inside of the encampment where they plan out their next step.

It also gives the Beanies more time to get there.

Cut to a change of scene: La Petite and the Forty in flight from the rising waters. Or Dean Rosetta Hypatia Hairdo discussing the flight of Cueball and Megan with the rest of the faculty.
All the rivers run into the sea, yet the sea is not full.
Unto the place from whence the rivers come, thither they return again.

ucim
Posts: 6701
Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:23 pm UTC

### Re: 1190: "Time"

I wonder what the global effect of the mass exchange filling the Mediterranean would be. Sure it would trigger local earthquakes, but could it trigger distant ones simply from the mass moving around? Would we be able to measure (temporary) changes in day length? Would the entire earth ring like a bell for a while?

Jose
Order of the Sillies, Honoris Causam - bestowed by charlie_grumbles on NP 859 * OTTscar winner: Wordsmith - bestowed by yappobiscuts and the OTT on NP 1832 * Ecclesiastical Calendar of the Order of the Holy Contradiction * Heartfelt thanks from addams and from me - you really made a difference.