1190: "Time"

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NetWeasel
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby NetWeasel » Sun Jul 21, 2013 2:46 am UTC

jjjdavidson wrote:No, I'm thinking about the earth's crust floating on the more-or-less liquid mantle. As I understand it, the rigid lithosphere is thicker and goes deeper under mountain ranges, due to the weight of rock. So I'm wondering: As the weight of the Med is reduced by evaporation, does the mantle push up the sea floor (and the coastline rigidly connected to it)?

Allow me to add to the question:

Apparently, the North American plate (whatever it's called) is tilted due to the weight of the Rocky Mountains. If it weren't for them, the eastern coast of the US would be under hundreds of feet of ocean.
Or so I'm told.
I think the question is, If all that water is gone, does that tilt any of the plates?
And if so, would the water rushing back in force them back down quickly?
Last edited by NetWeasel on Sun Jul 21, 2013 2:49 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Davidy » Sun Jul 21, 2013 2:48 am UTC

keithl wrote:
Apropos of nothing, one of my favorite bits of doggerel is a short poem by L.F. Richardson, the pioneer of numerical meteorology:

Bigger whorls have smaller whorls that feed on their velocity,
and smaller whorls have lesser whorls and so on to viscosity.



Spoiler:
Great fleas have little fleas upon their backs to bite 'em, And little fleas have lesser fleas, and so ad infinitum.
And the great fleas themselves, in turn, have greater fleas to go on; While these again have greater still, and greater still, and so on.
[1872 A. De morgan Budget of Paradoxes 377]



Woopie - Decree
Spoiler:
Hats for everyone
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Elige vis
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OutsideONG

Postby CasCat » Sun Jul 21, 2013 3:00 am UTC

Image

Edit to add: I don't recognize the geography...
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby jjjdavidson » Sun Jul 21, 2013 3:04 am UTC

AnotherKevin wrote:Y'know, I might hike faster if more of my hiking were on maintained trails. Many of the most rewarding hikes in this part of the world are bushwhacks. Then again, I imagine that Cueball and Megan are also bushwhacking....

Yep, they are:
Image


ETA: Where the chirp is this?
CasCat wrote:
Spoiler:
Image
Edit to add: I don't recognize the geography...
Last edited by jjjdavidson on Sun Jul 21, 2013 3:07 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby CasCat » Sun Jul 21, 2013 3:06 am UTC

jjjdavidson wrote:Is any OTTer a Worldcon member?


I am, but only a supporting member. I wanted to be able to vote for the Hugos, but I can't afford to go to San Antonio.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby robbak » Sun Jul 21, 2013 3:11 am UTC

jjjdavidson wrote:
robbak wrote:Various sources show a flow rate through the strait at 300km/hr. While that is huge, it makes sense for a flow a few hundred meters high with an ocean behind it and nothing in front of it.

But this, admittedly enormous, momentum runs into a humongous body of water. It would cause large currents in the Med, but not a kilometer high sloshing. If there are tsunamis, then they would be caused by undersea landslides and earthquakes, which would be common with such a rapid flooding.


Remember, we're starting with a mostly-empty Med basin. I think what keithl is saying is that, with a catastrophic refill that happens in weeks, practically the entire Med would be the current ─ that you'd have a mass of water 2000 miles long all moving eastward, to eventually wash over Lebanon and Syria.


Here is a better way putting my point across: Consider any body of water - bucket, bathtub, swimming pool - that fills in any way over a space of many days. Is there any major sloshing due to the inflow rate?

Things like this do roughly scale. On the local scale - at Gibraltar, below Sicily - the scale of this would be impressive. But on the scale of the entire sea, it would be fairly steady. The huge scale makes huge amounts of energy, but also huge amounts of mass to absorb that energy.

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby jjjdavidson » Sun Jul 21, 2013 3:16 am UTC

CasCat wrote:
jjjdavidson wrote:Is any OTTer a Worldcon member?

I am, but only a supporting member. I wanted to be able to vote for the Hugos, but I can't afford to go to San Antonio.

So as a supporting member you can enter a Hugo nomination, but you wouldn't be able to vote without attending the 'Con?
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby AnotherKevin » Sun Jul 21, 2013 3:16 am UTC

jjjdavidson wrote:
AnotherKevin wrote:Y'know, I might hike faster if more of my hiking were on maintained trails. Many of the most rewarding hikes in this part of the world are bushwhacks. Then again, I imagine that Cueball and Megan are also bushwhacking....

Yep, they are:
Image


I see them whacking the bush, but that's sort of the Soviet Russia version - on a serious bushwhack, the bushes whack you!

CasCat wrote:Image

Edit to add: I don't recognize the geography...


Edit to add: I don't, either. To my eye, it looks almost like an ivy-overgrown ruin rather than a natural rock formation. I suspect we've had a jump cut and we're about to see the Fleeing Forty, the Beanies, or some new characters appear on the scene. My money's on La Petite, firing Chekhov's gunhandheld trebuchet.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby edo » Sun Jul 21, 2013 3:36 am UTC

Is that the landing where the tower was? If so, where's the tower?!
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby b2bomberkrh » Sun Jul 21, 2013 3:37 am UTC

NetWeasel wrote:
b2bomberkrh wrote:
ChronosDragon wrote:Inside the tunnel perhaps?

That is certainly possible. I was about to post that we never saw how they negotiated this cliff the last time they came through. I thought maybe they were staring at the rock face in front of them trying to remember how they got down. Both are pretty much just guesses, but I would think this has something to do with the cliff, and not with them just going to sleep, although I know that's what a blackout was used for before, it would seem odd to have it in without them talking about stopping, especially since they intended to get back to the tower.

If you look at Geekwagon frames 2748-2752, you'll see they never came down the "cliff" at all. They either went through or around. Also, that is where the encampment is. The second tower they saw is just on the other side of what you're calling the "cliff."
They weren't heading for the tower; they were headed for the only safe place to sleep, which is right next to the tower.
Which is where they are now.


I don't think there's any evidence that they went through or around, rather than up and down, and that was my whole point, that we don't know how they got from one side of that cliff face to the other.

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Re: OutsideONG

Postby Fictioneer » Sun Jul 21, 2013 3:39 am UTC

CasCat wrote:
Spoiler:
Image


Edit to add: I don't recognize the geography...


It looks ripe for molpys, though.

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby ChronosDragon » Sun Jul 21, 2013 3:39 am UTC

b2bomberkrh wrote:
I don't think there's any evidence that they went through or around, rather than up and down, and that was my whole point, that we don't know how they got from one side of that cliff face to the other.


Do you see megan and Cue in the latest frame? Cause I don't! This could be a cut to somewhere else - the Forty, perhaps?

Also, happy 100 posts! When I see your name, my eyes pick out the word "bomber," so here, have a bomb-omb cake!

Image
Image

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Re: OutsideONG

Postby NetWeasel » Sun Jul 21, 2013 3:41 am UTC

Fictioneer wrote:
CasCat wrote:
Spoiler:
Image


Edit to add: I don't recognize the geography...


It looks ripe for molpys, though.

Left side, about 20% across, just to the left of that bush -- might that be one?
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby a_s_h_e_n » Sun Jul 21, 2013 3:41 am UTC

ChronosDragon wrote:
b2bomberkrh wrote:
I don't think there's any evidence that they went through or around, rather than up and down, and that was my whole point, that we don't know how they got from one side of that cliff face to the other.


Do you see megan and Cue in the latest frame? Cause I don't! This could be a cut to somewhere else - the Forty, perhaps?

The plants look almost exactly the same as the ones on top of the mountain, though
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby b2bomberkrh » Sun Jul 21, 2013 3:41 am UTC

ChronosDragon wrote:
b2bomberkrh wrote:
I don't think there's any evidence that they went through or around, rather than up and down, and that was my whole point, that we don't know how they got from one side of that cliff face to the other.


Do you see megan and Cue in the latest frame? Cause I don't! This could be a cut to somewhere else - the Forty, perhaps?

Also, happy 100 posts! When I see your name, my eyes pick out the word "bomber," so here, have a bomb-omb cake!

Image


Oh, I didn't even notice. I need a chihuahua cake for my little guys!!!

I totally missed the frame where they walked halfway into the mountain, so that makes it much more likely you were right about a tunnel, and does make it seem that they went through and not over.

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby jjjdavidson » Sun Jul 21, 2013 3:42 am UTC

robbak wrote:
jjjdavidson wrote:
Spoiler:
robbak wrote:Various sources show a flow rate through the strait at 300km/hr. While that is huge, it makes sense for a flow a few hundred meters high with an ocean behind it and nothing in front of it.

But this, admittedly enormous, momentum runs into a humongous body of water. It would cause large currents in the Med, but not a kilometer high sloshing. If there are tsunamis, then they would be caused by undersea landslides and earthquakes, which would be common with such a rapid flooding.

Remember, we're starting with a mostly-empty Med basin. I think what keithl is saying is that, with a catastrophic refill that happens in weeks, practically the entire Med would be the current ─ that you'd have a mass of water 2000 miles long all moving eastward, to eventually wash over Lebanon and Syria.
Here is a better way putting my point across: Consider any body of water - bucket, bathtub, swimming pool - that fills in any way over a space of many days. Is there any major sloshing due to the inflow rate?

Things like this do roughly scale. On the local scale - at Gibraltar, below Sicily - the scale of this would be impressive. But on the scale of the entire sea, it would be fairly steady. The huge scale makes huge amounts of energy, but also huge amounts of mass to absorb that energy.

Excellent image: That gives me a way to ask the question. In a filling bathtub, the water stays effectively level (ignoring ripples). In a river, there's a continuous slope to the water (my mother lives above a dam on the Arkansas river, and the water level at her house actually drops when the flow rate increases, because the slope of the reservoir increases).

That's because in a tub an equilibrium water level is reached in a second or so, whereas in a river the water spends days running from one end to the other. So the question becomes: How quickly does the Med level out?

We need two values: Speed of fill F and speed of leveling L. In a bathtub the ratio F/L is normally very small, so a bathtub doesn't slosh as it fills. But if you tip a 55-gallon drum of water in one end, it's chirping well going to slosh at the other end.

So what would the F/L ratio be for the Med, if Gibraltar opened enough to fill it in thirty days? What's the overall slope of the Med's surface at twenty days? Would the water still be hundreds of meters lower off Lebanon when the Algerian basin was nearly full, or, once the water got above all the narrow and high spots, would the Med stay fairly level? The greater the slope, the more eastward momentum the entire body of water maintains; the more eastward momentum, the more sloshing over coastlines, and the more overfill is sucked in through the Gibraltar current.

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Fictioneer » Sun Jul 21, 2013 3:42 am UTC

ChronosDragon wrote:
b2bomberkrh wrote:
I don't think there's any evidence that they went through or around, rather than up and down, and that was my whole point, that we don't know how they got from one side of that cliff face to the other.


Do you see megan and Cue in the latest frame? Cause I don't! This could be a cut to somewhere else - the Forty, perhaps?


Maybe Megan and Cue are going to pop out of the ground (tunnel) like a pair of gopher-molpys!

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby b2bomberkrh » Sun Jul 21, 2013 3:43 am UTC

a_s_h_e_n wrote:
ChronosDragon wrote:
b2bomberkrh wrote:
I don't think there's any evidence that they went through or around, rather than up and down, and that was my whole point, that we don't know how they got from one side of that cliff face to the other.


Do you see megan and Cue in the latest frame? Cause I don't! This could be a cut to somewhere else - the Forty, perhaps?

The plants look almost exactly the same as the ones on top of the mountain, though


I differenced the two frames on geekwagon, and the landscape isn't really a match.

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby BlueCrab » Sun Jul 21, 2013 3:46 am UTC

Aaaand 50 newpages behind. :| I'm really eager to get closer to the present, so my plan is to ketchup madly and try not to post. (I mostly use my phone and it's annoying and very time-consuming to insert tiny square-brackets for spoilers, etc, so it really slows me down. Not to mention how long it takes me to figure out the words. Words are hard!) I'm sure I won't be able to stay silent, but I'm gonna try!


Bookses: CasCat, jovialbard, Valarya
Spoiler:
CasCat wrote:Blindpost while ketchupping; Kage Baker died a few years ago, but her Company books are well worth reading. Strongly suggest they be read in order of publication (although the internal chronology will jump around some). In the Garden of Iden is the first Company book.

And if you like Robin Hobb, also check out Megan Lindholm. Same writer; different pen name. (Actually, I believe Megan Lindholm is her real name.) Say, I wonder what OUR Megan's last name is....?

It's all related!


Yes, it really hit me hard when I found out about Kage Baker's death - she was only 57, wasn't she? That's what I meant when I said ‘a different kind of reader-agony’; we were sympathizing about how hard it is to wait for a sequel, but it's difficult in an entirely different way to know that there simply will be no more.

I also really enjoyed Baker's Anvil of the World and its quasi-prequel, The House of the Stag. Anvil is somewhat uneven; I think I remember reading that she started writing the first part while whe was in her teens, so that may be why - there's a very different flavor between the two parts. The House of the Stag is excellent.

Yes, I saw that about Robin Hobb/Megan Lindholm when I was trying to decide which pronoun to use for Robin. I definitely plan to check out both sets!

Maybe we already know Megan and Cueball's last names. If their society trades syllables when paired, their names are Megball and Cuegan! :wink:


OTMST3K NetWeasel, yappobiscuits
Spoiler:
NetWeasel wrote:
BlueCrab wrote:
NetWeasel wrote:
yappobiscuits wrote:MolPope up!
Now, let's find out what they're WOW-ing about this time :D
Decree: PREDICTIONS!

Crow: More rockclimbing?
Servo: More rockclimbing.
Oh, ch*rp, that's us, isn't it? We're the MST3K crew...
Image

ETA my first manip, please be nice!

I especially like the fact that you've got Joel pointing at the beesnake...

ETA:
Joel: You could spend a thousand lifetimes on the Satellite of Love, coming up with clever things to say,
thinking as hard as you could, and you would never guess that conversations had things like this in it.
Crow: Is that from The Seven Faces of Dr. Lao?
Joel: Nooooo....



It was actually the only frame I could think of that would work with the MST3K silhouette. (The fact that the beesnake gets chomped in the next frame is just a bonus. :P)


Mountain hiking k.bookbinder
Spoiler:
k.bookbinder wrote:I've not had much to add during this ketchup blitz, and once this is read, it will be well after the fact, but just throwing this out there. My wife and I, on straight, level, even ground (pavement) can keep a walking pace of 4 to 5 mph for about 2 hours. We do this fairly regularly before, or after dinner. Whilst hiking in the Smokey Mountains, we could manage only about 1 to 2 mph, depending on the trail. Some trails, such as Meigs Mountain trail, it was easy to maintain a 2 mph pace (we tracked with GPS), with an overall vertical ascent of only about 600 feet over roughly 4 miles. However, trekking up to Silers Bald, we could barely manage over 1 mph with a vertical ascent of 1300 feet over roughly 5 miles. That trail was often times quite strenuous.

The Meigs Mountain trail fits my assumptions about Cuegan's climb much better than the Silers Bald does! If the Thread ever slows down again I'd like to fiddle with the numbers and see what I think the worst-case scenario is - steepest grade, for example, while meeting my 2.5 - 3 day window.


Overlapping words Rule110, Zorin_75, shurikt, jovialbard, Sciscitor,
Spoiler:
Rule110 wrote:
Zorin_75 wrote:
Rule110 wrote:All right, the overlapping words are creeping me out. Is there more going on here than mispronounced or halting speech? She either says the words "TO THIS FORTRESS" or not; if she says it, why not include those words in line, and if she doesn't, why is it appearing on the frame as if we're reading her thoughts? Maybe she really is saying more than one phrase at the same time, with the utterances overlapping, like a malfunctioning protocol droid or a telepath. :? :?

I think it's just a neat way to transfer the difficulty of making out words when listening to somebody with a very strange pronounciation to writing...

That's what I thought up until the most recent blotch-speech. But it doesn't make sense. If the pronunciation is poor, but they can make out the word "DESERT," why are they also "hearing" SAND? If it were a game of Charades, that would make sense, but it doesn't make sense for spoken words. How could a mispronounced word sound like DESERT and SAND both?
shurikt wrote:It's from the perspective of Cueball & Megan's comprehension of the speech. When it's completely foreign, it's in a foreign alphabet. When it's something they can understand, the overlapping meanings appear all at once. Hence the overlapping "here/fortress"
Or so I have led myself to believe.

That's an interesting idea, but again, she's supposed to be saying their words. Naturally when someone says DESERT (either properly or oddly pronounced), you might also think SAND, and if someone says HERE while in a fortress you might also think THIS FORTRESS. But you don't hear (and authors don't write down for you) those related words and phrases because they're implicit in the meaning. If you can't make out the sound of DESERT then you also can't make out SAND, unless it's Charades or Pictionary or telepathy instead of speech.
jovialbard wrote:Ok, I'm leaning more to the idea that she's speaking very slowly and that the faded text is something she's trying to say before she picks what she really wants to say because she thinks it sounds smarter or more specific (or she's just messing with them). I also suspect that it's not separated by elipsis because she kind of whispering one under her breath while saying the other, something like "To thisYou arose fortresshere from the sanddeserts below-ackadoodle" (I'm assuming the little o above a word is pronounced ackadoodle, of course) It's an interesting way to represent that, though perhaps not perfectly analogous to how it would sound.

Possible. I'm reluctant to interpret gigantic but faded-out text that overlaps other words as a whisper, though, because a perfectly good comic convention for low or whispered speech already exists. (You just used it yourself; smaller text.) And saying one thing under your breath while also saying another, in a language that supposedly you barely can pronounce understandably at all? That's pretty much the same weirdness level I'm reacting to. Talking around vocabulary you don't know ("How do I get to the... how you say... train... place... ticket... building?") is possible, but that (whether clearly or badly pronounced) makes the most sense written as spoken; you don't say all four words at the same time.
Still thinking there's something strange here.

Sciscitor wrote:Re: Weird overlaid text.
Remembering that in Beanish "water" becomes "sea" when prepended with a syllable it would be reasonable to assume that "sand" becomes "desert" in similar circumstances. What we see is not what we hear, but the meaning those foreign words convey for Farrah. For her "sand" and "desert" actually are very close, so when she says "desert" it also means [qualifier]sand to her. It's all clues for deciphering Beanish.


What if Cueganish is a tonal language, and she's using odd tonals? Would that sound to a native Cuegan as if the speaker were changing the word while they said it? Found Sciscitor's post a little way down the page, he's saying pretty much what I mean. :)

I've also got a snippet floating in my memory that I can't place, of a robot? which would say 3 or 4 related nouns and sometimes verbs at a time when it spoke. Pretty sure it ended up trying to harvest people (Logan's Run, maybe? It's been decades since I've seen it.) Also pretty sure someone else has mentioned it, but I can't place that, either. :roll:

Or it's telepathy, in which case Hairdo is either very good at it or very bad at it, for Cuegan to be getting so much... reverb, maybe? Very good at it, I would think, because the Beanies don't seem to be paying any attention at all.


ET move my response to NetWeasel outside of his quote. :P
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Davidy » Sun Jul 21, 2013 3:57 am UTC

jjjdavidson wrote:
robbak wrote:
jjjdavidson wrote:
Spoiler:
robbak wrote:Various sources show a flow rate through the strait at 300km/hr. While that is huge, it makes sense for a flow a few hundred meters high with an ocean behind it and nothing in front of it.

But this, admittedly enormous, momentum runs into a humongous body of water. It would cause large currents in the Med, but not a kilometer high sloshing. If there are tsunamis, then they would be caused by undersea landslides and earthquakes, which would be common with such a rapid flooding.

Remember, we're starting with a mostly-empty Med basin. I think what keithl is saying is that, with a catastrophic refill that happens in weeks, practically the entire Med would be the current ─ that you'd have a mass of water 2000 miles long all moving eastward, to eventually wash over Lebanon and Syria.
Here is a better way putting my point across: Consider any body of water - bucket, bathtub, swimming pool - that fills in any way over a space of many days. Is there any major sloshing due to the inflow rate?

Things like this do roughly scale. On the local scale - at Gibraltar, below Sicily - the scale of this would be impressive. But on the scale of the entire sea, it would be fairly steady. The huge scale makes huge amounts of energy, but also huge amounts of mass to absorb that energy.

Excellent image: That gives me a way to ask the question. In a filling bathtub, the water stays effectively level (ignoring ripples). In a river, there's a continuous slope to the water (my mother lives above a dam on the Arkansas river, and the water level at her house actually drops when the flow rate increases, because the slope of the reservoir increases).

That's because in a tub an equilibrium water level is reached in a second or so, whereas in a river the water spends days running from one end to the other. So the question becomes: How quickly does the Med level out?

We need two values: Speed of fill F and speed of leveling L. In a bathtub the ratio F/L is normally very small, so a bathtub doesn't slosh as it fills. But if you tip a 55-gallon drum of water in one end, it's chirping well going to slosh at the other end.

So what would the F/L ratio be for the Med, if Gibraltar opened enough to fill it in thirty days? What's the overall slope of the Med's surface at twenty days? Would the water still be hundreds of meters lower off Lebanon when the Algerian basin was nearly full, or, once the water got above all the narrow and high spots, would the Med stay fairly level? The greater the slope, the more eastward momentum the entire body of water maintains; the more eastward momentum, the more sloshing over coastlines, and the more overfill is sucked in through the Gibraltar current.

This study - http://phys.org/news179598629.html - published in the scientific journal Nature, claims the Medeterranian took two years to fill.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby moody7277 » Sun Jul 21, 2013 4:02 am UTC

NightmareONG

Image
The story of my life in xkcdmafia:

Tigerlion wrote:Well, I imagine as the game progresses, various people will be getting moody.


BoomFrog wrote:I still have no idea what town moody really looks like.

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby b2bomberkrh » Sun Jul 21, 2013 4:02 am UTC

ONGward

Ninja'd. Looks like the place they stayed was in the mountain. So, this is the next day after all. By the way, when I cut the image url, it wasn't a big long hash image tag this time, is this something new? It was just named "time.png"
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby BytEfLUSh » Sun Jul 21, 2013 4:03 am UTC


Wow... I was afraid that might happen to them. So, the black-out was actually night, once again?
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby b2bomberkrh » Sun Jul 21, 2013 4:06 am UTC

BytEfLUSh wrote:

Wow... I was afraid that might happen to them. So, the black-out was actually night, once again?


Yes, I think so.

Hmmm, when I did "copy image url" I didn't get this url, I got time.png. I was worried that if I put that image in, it would change each time the comic frame updated. Do I have to do something different to get the right url, now that the auto updating is working differently?

ETA: If I open the picture in a new tab, I get the complicated url, but I get the "time.png" one when I copy image url from the main comic tab, and it worked fine when I pasted it in here trying to put up the new image. MIght be something to be careful of in the future.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby k.bookbinder » Sun Jul 21, 2013 4:07 am UTC

***Blindposting from NP 1130***

So much to read. Math...head explosion. Infinity...no flames, NO FLAMES! Hairdo...heavy accent. Difficult to understand. Much to learn, much to explain. So many questions. So much to read. Must reach the present. :shock:

Reach the present...
Reach the present...
Reach the present...
Reach the present...
Reach the present...
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby hunjoh » Sun Jul 21, 2013 4:08 am UTC

Davidy wrote:
jjjdavidson wrote:
robbak wrote:
jjjdavidson wrote:
Spoiler:
robbak wrote:Various sources show a flow rate through the strait at 300km/hr. While that is huge, it makes sense for a flow a few hundred meters high with an ocean behind it and nothing in front of it.

But this, admittedly enormous, momentum runs into a humongous body of water. It would cause large currents in the Med, but not a kilometer high sloshing. If there are tsunamis, then they would be caused by undersea landslides and earthquakes, which would be common with such a rapid flooding.

Remember, we're starting with a mostly-empty Med basin. I think what keithl is saying is that, with a catastrophic refill that happens in weeks, practically the entire Med would be the current ─ that you'd have a mass of water 2000 miles long all moving eastward, to eventually wash over Lebanon and Syria.
Here is a better way putting my point across: Consider any body of water - bucket, bathtub, swimming pool - that fills in any way over a space of many days. Is there any major sloshing due to the inflow rate?

Things like this do roughly scale. On the local scale - at Gibraltar, below Sicily - the scale of this would be impressive. But on the scale of the entire sea, it would be fairly steady. The huge scale makes huge amounts of energy, but also huge amounts of mass to absorb that energy.

Excellent image: That gives me a way to ask the question. In a filling bathtub, the water stays effectively level (ignoring ripples). In a river, there's a continuous slope to the water (my mother lives above a dam on the Arkansas river, and the water level at her house actually drops when the flow rate increases, because the slope of the reservoir increases).

That's because in a tub an equilibrium water level is reached in a second or so, whereas in a river the water spends days running from one end to the other. So the question becomes: How quickly does the Med level out?

We need two values: Speed of fill F and speed of leveling L. In a bathtub the ratio F/L is normally very small, so a bathtub doesn't slosh as it fills. But if you tip a 55-gallon drum of water in one end, it's chirping well going to slosh at the other end.

So what would the F/L ratio be for the Med, if Gibraltar opened enough to fill it in thirty days? What's the overall slope of the Med's surface at twenty days? Would the water still be hundreds of meters lower off Lebanon when the Algerian basin was nearly full, or, once the water got above all the narrow and high spots, would the Med stay fairly level? The greater the slope, the more eastward momentum the entire body of water maintains; the more eastward momentum, the more sloshing over coastlines, and the more overfill is sucked in through the Gibraltar current.

This study - http://phys.org/news179598629.html - published in the scientific journal Nature, claims the Medeterranian took two years to fill.


The article states:

"Although the flood started at low water discharges that may have lasted for up to several thousand years, our results suggest that 90 percent of the water was transferred in a short period ranging from a few months to two years."

Read more at: http://phys.org/news179598629.html#jCp
Last edited by hunjoh on Sun Jul 21, 2013 5:17 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby JBantha » Sun Jul 21, 2013 4:09 am UTC

b2bomberkrh wrote:
BytEfLUSh wrote:

Wow... I was afraid that might happen to them. So, the black-out was actually night, once again?


Yes, I think so.

Hmmm, when I did "copy image url" I didn't get this url, I got time.png. I was worried that if I put that image in, it would change each time the comic frame updated. Do I have to do something different to get the right url, now that the auto updating is working differently?


I actually think It was many nights, not just one. Since the previous frame showed a not-so-changed flora.

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby BytEfLUSh » Sun Jul 21, 2013 4:10 am UTC

b2bomberkrh wrote:Hmmm, when I did "copy image url" I didn't get this url, I got time.png. I was worried that if I put that image in, it would change each time the comic frame updated. Do I have to do something different to get the right url, now that the auto updating is working differently?

ETA: If I open the picture in a new tab, I get the complicated url, but I get the "time.png" one when I copy image url from the main comic tab, and it worked fine when I pasted it in here trying to put up the new image. MIght be something to be careful of in the future.

It has happened before, but right now I'm too lazy (6:10AM here) to search (several people have reported it).

ETA: When I want to ONG, I always just right click the image and middle-click "View Image" in Firefox. Seems to be the safest way. :)
ETA2: And then CTRL+L, CTRL+C... :)
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby edo » Sun Jul 21, 2013 4:20 am UTC

hunjoh wrote:The article states:

"Although the flood started at low water discharges that may have lasted for up to several thousand years, our results suggest that 90 percent of the water was transferred in a short period ranging from a few months to two years."

Read more at: http://phys.org/news179598629.html#jCp

Davidy wrote:
jjjdavidson wrote:
robbak wrote:
jjjdavidson wrote:
Spoiler:
robbak wrote:Various sources show a flow rate through the strait at 300km/hr. While that is huge, it makes sense for a flow a few hundred meters high with an ocean behind it and nothing in front of it.

But this, admittedly enormous, momentum runs into a humongous body of water. It would cause large currents in the Med, but not a kilometer high sloshing. If there are tsunamis, then they would be caused by undersea landslides and earthquakes, which would be common with such a rapid flooding.

Remember, we're starting with a mostly-empty Med basin. I think what keithl is saying is that, with a catastrophic refill that happens in weeks, practically the entire Med would be the current ─ that you'd have a mass of water 2000 miles long all moving eastward, to eventually wash over Lebanon and Syria.
Here is a better way putting my point across: Consider any body of water - bucket, bathtub, swimming pool - that fills in any way over a space of many days. Is there any major sloshing due to the inflow rate?

Things like this do roughly scale. On the local scale - at Gibraltar, below Sicily - the scale of this would be impressive. But on the scale of the entire sea, it would be fairly steady. The huge scale makes huge amounts of energy, but also huge amounts of mass to absorb that energy.

Excellent image: That gives me a way to ask the question. In a filling bathtub, the water stays effectively level (ignoring ripples). In a river, there's a continuous slope to the water (my mother lives above a dam on the Arkansas river, and the water level at her house actually drops when the flow rate increases, because the slope of the reservoir increases).

That's because in a tub an equilibrium water level is reached in a second or so, whereas in a river the water spends days running from one end to the other. So the question becomes: How quickly does the Med level out?

We need two values: Speed of fill F and speed of leveling L. In a bathtub the ratio F/L is normally very small, so a bathtub doesn't slosh as it fills. But if you tip a 55-gallon drum of water in one end, it's chirping well going to slosh at the other end.

So what would the F/L ratio be for the Med, if Gibraltar opened enough to fill it in thirty days? What's the overall slope of the Med's surface at twenty days? Would the water still be hundreds of meters lower off Lebanon when the Algerian basin was nearly full, or, once the water got above all the narrow and high spots, would the Med stay fairly level? The greater the slope, the more eastward momentum the entire body of water maintains; the more eastward momentum, the more sloshing over coastlines, and the more overfill is sucked in through the Gibraltar current.

This study - http://phys.org/news179598629.html - published in the scientific journal Nature, claims the Medeterranian took two years to fill.

At that time, the gorge had to be cut. This time, just the debris has to be cleared. Should fill in a month or so.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby b2bomberkrh » Sun Jul 21, 2013 4:21 am UTC

jjjdavidson wrote:
robbak wrote:
jjjdavidson wrote:
Spoiler:
robbak wrote:Various sources show a flow rate through the strait at 300km/hr. While that is huge, it makes sense for a flow a few hundred meters high with an ocean behind it and nothing in front of it.

But this, admittedly enormous, momentum runs into a humongous body of water. It would cause large currents in the Med, but not a kilometer high sloshing. If there are tsunamis, then they would be caused by undersea landslides and earthquakes, which would be common with such a rapid flooding.

Remember, we're starting with a mostly-empty Med basin. I think what keithl is saying is that, with a catastrophic refill that happens in weeks, practically the entire Med would be the current ─ that you'd have a mass of water 2000 miles long all moving eastward, to eventually wash over Lebanon and Syria.
Here is a better way putting my point across: Consider any body of water - bucket, bathtub, swimming pool - that fills in any way over a space of many days. Is there any major sloshing due to the inflow rate?

Things like this do roughly scale. On the local scale - at Gibraltar, below Sicily - the scale of this would be impressive. But on the scale of the entire sea, it would be fairly steady. The huge scale makes huge amounts of energy, but also huge amounts of mass to absorb that energy.

Excellent image: That gives me a way to ask the question. In a filling bathtub, the water stays effectively level (ignoring ripples). In a river, there's a continuous slope to the water (my mother lives above a dam on the Arkansas river, and the water level at her house actually drops when the flow rate increases, because the slope of the reservoir increases).



I wanted to point out what the scaling of the problem implies here. I'm not certain how well things really will scale in this case, but even assuming they do, consider this. A bathtub is about 2 meters long. If the Mediterranean is roughly 1000 km long, then the scaling factor is 500,000. This means that a 2 mm (or about a tenth of an inch) change in the bathtub level corresponds to a 1 km change in the level of the Mediterranean. So, all the claims of how a bathtub is "mostly smooth", or fills with "little sloshing" and so on, when scaled up, are still massive waves going back and forth across the Mediterranean.

ETA: Also, note that the Mediterranean is an EXTREMELY shallow bathtub, another reason why comparisons aren't necessarily accurate. Most people don't realize how flat the surface of the Earth is on the scale of the Earth itself, and how much bigger geographic features such as seas are in their surface area than they are in depth. My rough calculation indicates the Mediterranean is approximately the shape of a normal size bathtub that is 1 cm deep.
Last edited by b2bomberkrh on Sun Jul 21, 2013 4:27 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby hunjoh » Sun Jul 21, 2013 4:23 am UTC

Davidy wrote:
jjjdavidson wrote:
robbak wrote:
jjjdavidson wrote:
Spoiler:
robbak wrote:Various sources show a flow rate through the strait at 300km/hr. While that is huge, it makes sense for a flow a few hundred meters high with an ocean behind it and nothing in front of it.

But this, admittedly enormous, momentum runs into a humongous body of water. It would cause large currents in the Med, but not a kilometer high sloshing. If there are tsunamis, then they would be caused by undersea landslides and earthquakes, which would be common with such a rapid flooding.

Remember, we're starting with a mostly-empty Med basin. I think what keithl is saying is that, with a catastrophic refill that happens in weeks, practically the entire Med would be the current ─ that you'd have a mass of water 2000 miles long all moving eastward, to eventually wash over Lebanon and Syria.
Here is a better way putting my point across: Consider any body of water - bucket, bathtub, swimming pool - that fills in any way over a space of many days. Is there any major sloshing due to the inflow rate?

Things like this do roughly scale. On the local scale - at Gibraltar, below Sicily - the scale of this would be impressive. But on the scale of the entire sea, it would be fairly steady. The huge scale makes huge amounts of energy, but also huge amounts of mass to absorb that energy.

Excellent image: That gives me a way to ask the question. In a filling bathtub, the water stays effectively level (ignoring ripples). In a river, there's a continuous slope to the water (my mother lives above a dam on the Arkansas river, and the water level at her house actually drops when the flow rate increases, because the slope of the reservoir increases).

That's because in a tub an equilibrium water level is reached in a second or so, whereas in a river the water spends days running from one end to the other. So the question becomes: How quickly does the Med level out?

We need two values: Speed of fill F and speed of leveling L. In a bathtub the ratio F/L is normally very small, so a bathtub doesn't slosh as it fills. But if you tip a 55-gallon drum of water in one end, it's chirping well going to slosh at the other end.

So what would the F/L ratio be for the Med, if Gibraltar opened enough to fill it in thirty days? What's the overall slope of the Med's surface at twenty days? Would the water still be hundreds of meters lower off Lebanon when the Algerian basin was nearly full, or, once the water got above all the narrow and high spots, would the Med stay fairly level? The greater the slope, the more eastward momentum the entire body of water maintains; the more eastward momentum, the more sloshing over coastlines, and the more overfill is sucked in through the Gibraltar current.

This study - http://phys.org/news179598629.html - published in the scientific journal Nature, claims the Medeterranian took two years to fill.


Some more info from that article... (Emphases mine.)

"We do not envisage a waterfall, as is often represented: instead the geophysical data suggests a huge ramp, several kilometres wide, descending from the Atlantic to the dry Mediterranean...," the scientists said. This extremely abrupt flood may have involved peak rates of sea level rise in the Mediterranean of more than 10 metres a day," they said. Garcia-Castellanos told AFP that even though the water flowed into the Mediterranean Sea at huge speeds it was at a relatively small angle of between one and four percent. The incision channel started tens of kilometres inside the Atlantic and seemed to slope gradually towards the centre of the Alboran Sea, in the western Mediterranean. We also know that the velocity of the water flow must have been more than 300 kilometres an hour," he said."

With the water traveling at 300 kilometers an hour, there must have been a lot of mist coming off the top of that. Perhaps enough to obscure the horizon...
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Bad Hair Man » Sun Jul 21, 2013 4:27 am UTC

Hello again from the past. I'm up to page 227 now. Cueball has just finished up putting those weird goalpost things on top of Megan's big squared-up mound, but has not yet knocked them back down. The thread itself is being mostly loopy with excessive postings on the finer points of religious doctrine, and random bits of baseless speculation. (I'm sorry, I know that doesn't narrow things down much.)

Anyway, I'm posting not to comment on something I read in the thread or comic, but to share something I found at the library today. (I check in books for two hours every week. It is the awesomist volunteer job ever. (If you like libraries, and books. Which I do.)) It may just be the cold-medicine talking, but I found a book called Present Shock, and the final paragraphs of the preface sound particularly portentous right now.

Most important, we will consider what we human beings can do to pace ourselves and our expectations when there’s no temporal backdrop against which to measure our progress, no narrative through which to make sense of our actions, no future toward which we may strive, and seemingly no time to figure any of this out.

I suggest we intervene on our own behalf—and that we do it right now, in the present moment. When things begin accelerating wildly out of control, sometimes patience is the only answer. Press pause.

We have time for this.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby NetWeasel » Sun Jul 21, 2013 4:30 am UTC

robbak wrote:
jjjdavidson wrote:
Spoiler:
robbak wrote:Various sources show a flow rate through the strait at 300km/hr. While that is huge, it makes sense for a flow a few hundred meters high with an ocean behind it and nothing in front of it.

But this, admittedly enormous, momentum runs into a humongous body of water. It would cause large currents in the Med, but not a kilometer high sloshing. If there are tsunamis, then they would be caused by undersea landslides and earthquakes, which would be common with such a rapid flooding.

Remember, we're starting with a mostly-empty Med basin. I think what keithl is saying is that, with a catastrophic refill that happens in weeks, practically the entire Med would be the current ─ that you'd have a mass of water 2000 miles long all moving eastward, to eventually wash over Lebanon and Syria.
Here is a better way putting my point across: Consider any body of water - bucket, bathtub, swimming pool - that fills in any way over a space of many days. Is there any major sloshing due to the inflow rate?

Things like this do roughly scale. On the local scale - at Gibraltar, below Sicily - the scale of this would be impressive. But on the scale of the entire sea, it would be fairly steady. The huge scale makes huge amounts of energy, but also huge amounts of mass to absorb that energy.


Let me make sure I understand your point...

Let's say I buy a chunk of land outside of Benton Harbor, Michigan -- barely east of Lake Michigan. And I build a scale model of the Med out of concrete. And then I punch the appropriate sized hole in the Lake Michigan side so that it will fill "over a space of many days."

Are you saying that I'll have the same scale effects if my model is 25 feet across as i would if it were 25 miles across?
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby BlueCrab » Sun Jul 21, 2013 4:31 am UTC

Okay, breaking my no-posting trial already. :wink: I'm going to continue to throw firstposts forward if a search of their username doesn't get any results, because at this point (newpage 1124) things are starting to move pretty fast and I'd rather be redundant than have someone missed.
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This is starting to seem like the OTT is driving the OTC.

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Ebonite » Sun Jul 21, 2013 4:32 am UTC

ggh wrote:
Rule110 wrote:Here are the "eyes" made visible by extreme adjustment of the levels.

Image

I can't see this window any more except as a stained-glass representation of a drowning man, hands on either side of his head holding on to a rope or something.

ETA: the rope would have to be behind his head though, which is weird.

Blindposting from 1167. . .

I keep seeing it as the top half of a Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle's head peering over a wall. . .
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby hunjoh » Sun Jul 21, 2013 4:49 am UTC

NetWeasel wrote:
Let me make sure I understand your point...

Let's say I buy a chunk of land outside of Benton Harbor, Michigan -- barely east of Lake Michigan. And I build a scale model of the Med out of concrete. And then I punch the appropriate sized hole in the Lake Michigan side so that it will fill "over a space of many days."

Are you saying that I'll have the same scale effects if my model is 25 feet across as i would if it were 25 miles across?


With some adjustments, maybe.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Army_ ... _Bay_Model
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby BytEfLUSh » Sun Jul 21, 2013 4:53 am UTC

On Friday, I got the recommendation to take the next week off... Confirmed today (well, yesterday) by my doctor. Work exhaustion. And (mostly) all I ever did was follow the OTC. Not that I'm obsessed with it, it's almost 7AM here and I'll get some sleep soon-ish. :) Thank you Randall. :)
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby ChronosDragon » Sun Jul 21, 2013 4:57 am UTC

hunjoh wrote:With some adjustments, maybe.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Army_ ... _Bay_Model



NetWeasel wrote:
Let me make sure I understand your point...

Let's say I buy a chunk of land outside of Benton Harbor, Michigan -- barely east of Lake Michigan. And I build a scale model of the Med out of concrete. And then I punch the appropriate sized hole in the Lake Michigan side so that it will fill "over a space of many days."

Are you saying that I'll have the same scale effects if my model is 25 feet across as i would if it were 25 miles across?


Little piece of friendly advice - usually, people put the post they are quoting above their response to it. Just so there's context, then new content. It works a little smoother that way. ;)

Lots of blindposts tonight, guess most people who are on are blitz'in. So I guess I was wrong about the cut being to the Forty, but I was right that it wasn't contiguous, at the very least. Alt-text still says RUN, so...running soon?
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby spamjam » Sun Jul 21, 2013 5:00 am UTC

JBantha wrote:
b2bomberkrh wrote:
BytEfLUSh wrote:
moody7277 wrote:NightmareONG
Spoiler:
Image
Wow... I was afraid that might happen to them. So, the black-out was actually night, once again?
Yes, I think so.
I actually think It was many nights, not just one. Since the previous frame showed a not-so-changed flora.

Zero nights. They just went through a tunnel. The black-out was when they were in the tunnel. Several posters have pointed this out. Must be pretty long and/or curved to not have any light visible.

ETA: Didn't pay attention to Cueball's mention of dreaming. So probably just one night. Still think it was a tunnel they went through. Perhaps they slept in the tunnel.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby BytEfLUSh » Sun Jul 21, 2013 5:00 am UTC

ONG before coma:

Image

Huh.... No comments about the nightmare. Probably coming soon-ish.
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