1190: "Time"

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby gga2 » Sun Jul 21, 2013 11:00 pm UTC

NeospONGin

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby thunderrabbit » Sun Jul 21, 2013 11:01 pm UTC

ink or maybe mustard!

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Gedeon » Sun Jul 21, 2013 11:02 pm UTC

mscha wrote:And how will you convince this outflow to flow from a lower into a higher basin? Image You'll need to use a lot of energy to do this, and certainly won't gain any.


Interestingly, (simple) physics doesn`t always apply.

Suez canal: Although the Red Sea is about 1.2 m (4 ft) higher than the eastern Mediterranean,[71] the current between the Mediterranean and the middle of the canal at the Bitter Lakes flows north in winter and south in summer


2-3 metre difference is not a huge difference in pressure at 300 m depth (Med saline water is more dense than the ocean, therefore heavier, putting more pressure)... but 2-3 metre rise in sea level is enough to get many people in Med underwater.
Last edited by Gedeon on Sun Jul 21, 2013 11:06 pm UTC, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby a_s_h_e_n » Sun Jul 21, 2013 11:02 pm UTC

gga2 wrote:NeospONGin

Spoiler:
Image

So are Cuegan / the 40 not well-versed in medicine?
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby mscha » Sun Jul 21, 2013 11:04 pm UTC

This is (a slightly shifted version) of the last scene we saw before the scene of the Long Night. But, as you'll remember, it's certainly not adjacent, because when we cut to the Long Night scene (26 Outside days ago!), we had to wait for 14 newpix for Cuegan to show up. This time, we're doing it in one newpix.
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Re: Run?

Postby hunjoh » Sun Jul 21, 2013 11:08 pm UTC

nerdsniped wrote:I need a reality check here (if the term applies to the OTC)... is RUN actually a good plan, or are Cuegan just panicing? Are we going to see "pant, pant, wheeze" in a few frames? First off, running does not seem like a sustainable pace, especially at altitude and with a healing leg. Second, you'd think it would have been worth at least a few minutes to fine-tune their supplies and consult with Rosetta and/or each other as to route choice.?

Spoiler:
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Well, that answers that.....
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby k.bookbinder » Sun Jul 21, 2013 11:12 pm UTC

Image

MOLPY UP! Here is me after I finally made it to the top of Charlies Bunion
Spoiler:
Image


I've made it to the present! And Wow...I mean, just wow.
@spamjam Pink Floyd
Spoiler:
spamjam wrote:
lgw wrote:Speaking of music, "Time" and "Run" are tracks from Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon. The start of "Time" actually fits the start of Time pretty well IMO:
Ticking away the moments that make up a dull day
You fritter and waste the hours in an off hand way
Kicking around on a piece of ground in your home town
Waiting for someone or something to show you the way

Tired of lying in the sunshine staying home to watch the rain
You are young and life is long and there is time to kill today
And then one day you find ten years have got behind you
No one told you when to run, you missed the starting gun

And you run and you run to catch up with the sun, but its sinking
And racing around to come up behind you again
The sun is the same in a relative way, but you're older
Shorter of breath and one day closer to death

While Cuegan has a more immediate reason to RUN than realizing they need to find something productive to do with their lives, the "hero's journey" is often a metaphor for accepting adult responsibility anyhow, so I think it fits.

Not to mention these lyrics from "Brain Damage" and the current situation:
And if the dam breaks open many years too soon
And if there is no room upon the hill


I cannot help thinking that this would also be a good time for someone to do an OTTification of "Run Like Hell" from The Wall. That is what popped into my head when I saw the alt-text.


@CasCat Rosetta's state of mind
Spoiler:
CasCat wrote:Accidental double-post; sorry. I expected the OTT to be busier while I ketched-up. :oops:

Tatiana wrote:You'd think they'd at least run to the tower and look back the way they came from to see if the water had risen visibly since they came through last time, and to see if any beanies were following them or just visible going about their business. I'm still thinking there must be some kind of long distance communication system, too. When the eyes first appeared on the window of the castle, I thought it was somehow connected with that. Of course if that were the case, the beanies might have signaled back to home base before they packed up the scope and headed back on foot, and we saw no sign of that.

Question: what was it that creeped Cuegan out about Hypatia? It seems she was quite friendly, open, and helpful to me. I think I would have stayed to brainstorm with her on technology the beanies might have that could help them save their people.


Her fatalism, I think. "Too bad, so sorry, everyone you know is about to be dead and I'm not going to put anyone in danger trying to warn them. Have a nice day." And the bit about saying their goodbyes from here implies that Cueball and Megan might also be prevented, for their own good, from trying to go back and save them. Remember, the Beanies have had some time to come to grips with the scale of the catastrophe; Cuegan has not.

They're in a building, surrounded by a community of people who obey the leader, and the leader doesn't seem able or willing to help and doesn't seem sympathetic to them wanting to go back to help, either. Getting out of the building and out of the control of the Beanies may be an overreaction, but if they're wrong, they're just rude (which is excusable because they're overwrought), and if they're right, they avoid imprisonment (for their own good) and the certain (rather than probable) death of their community.

I don't think the Beanies are sinister, and I don't think the leader is evil. But I could easily see our heroes being stopped in order to save their lives, using the cold (and probably accurate) calculus that the others will die anyway. Cueball and Megan, because they KNOW the others, aren't willing to accept that.

<edit to add> And I was ninja'd by mindonner....


Well, I disgree about the state of mind of the Beanie leader. I think she was sympathetic. However, I think she may have been genuinely distraught that they missed some 40 people down there, when they wanted to evacuate everyone. Actually, I got the feeling that the leader was a bit distraught, almost panicky. Her emphatic "NO!" and restatement that the sea may rise dangerously high within days, suggests to me that even the Beanies are unprepared to deal with the consequences of such a dramatic change.


@AlusioASG Are you really leaving? For good? :cry:
Spoiler:
AluisioASG wrote:Hello everybody! As promised, I brought some cakes to share with y'all (very seaish):
IMG_20130721_001040.jpg

IMG_20130721_150248.jpg


And, this being my 700th post, I have a few words to say.

I love this community. I love this place. And I love you all everybody.

This is one of the few places where I can truly be myself (or my projected self, at least). Sometimes being snarky, sometimes apologizing for it. Sometimes contributing, and sometimes just listening. Always gathering new knowledge about everything.


Hmm. This whole thing was much shorter than I'd thought. So here's a plusquack I know very well, my very favorite plusquack indeed:
We know now that in the early years of the one-hundred-tenth century, this world was being watched closely by intelligences greater than Cuegan's and yet as mortal as their own. We know now that as future human beings busied themselves about their various concerns they were scrutinized and studied, perhaps almost as narrowly as a human with a microscope might scrutinize the transient creatures that swarm and multiply in a drop of water. With infinite complacence people went to and fro over the earth about their little affairs, serene in the assurance of their dominion over this small spinning fragment of solar driftwood which by chance or design they had inherited out of the dark mystery of Time and Faith. Yet across an immense timeless gulf, minds that are to their minds as ours are to the raptors in the jungle, intellects vast, cool and yet so sympathetic, regarded this world with curious eyes and slowly and surely drew their plans against the Sea.

(That's amazingly easy to adapt to any situation.)

And with this, I finish what's likely the last post on this account. And I go…


Wait, what? Last post? Goodbye?


Question: now that we have a map of the Land of Time, which can be superimposed on a map of the Mediterranean, and compared to the Holy Catographer's map, has it yet been calculated how far Cuegan actually traveled? I apologize if I missed such calculations during my skimblitz.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby charlie_grumbles » Sun Jul 21, 2013 11:15 pm UTC

svenman wrote:
charlie_grumbles wrote:
svenman wrote:For that matter, how did the Beanies get all the other people in the Mediterranean Basin to believe them? And that would cover a huge area with presumably very many different population groups, all the way to what we know as Syria, Lebanon and Israel.

Actually, you just get each tribe you meet to warn its neighbors. The neighbors are likely similar enough to have some trust. You don't have to go the whole way yourself. But you probably need some proof to pass along. So, perhaps the hill people were charged with this and failed to do so.

I wouldn't have the trust that this way the message gets passed around to every place it needs to be, essentially unchanged, over thousands of kilometres. Your idea would be good enough to explain how not every single settlement needs to be visited by the Beanies themselves, but the message would still have to be passed on directly by the Beanies to, let's say, local or regional authority figures all over the Mediterranean Basin. Otherwise, by the fourth or fifth retelling, it would seem to be nothing but a rumour, with the passed-along proof easily dismissed. Conclusion: The Beanies must have travelled all over the Mediterranean Basin.


Yes, something like that, but you probably have to visit only 25% of the tribes, not everyone.
svenman wrote:
NetWeasel wrote:OK.. the theoretical "project" would be at "wonder of the world" level engineering. Under the dam/lock system, below the underground rail system, there is a 500 meter wide pipe for the Med outflow, with some type of magicone valve system to prevent Atlantic backflow, but where the Med saline can flow out. [...]

oneClarke magic -- any sufficiently advanced tech, etc. Lets through sealife, blocks Atlantic water.

No need to suppose Clarke-magic level tech for that. I'd expect that you could just place any opening in the dam at the level where now highly saline water from the Mediterranean flows out into the Atlantic, and that saline outflow will continue to use that opening. The cumulated size of the opening(s) just has to be matched to the managed inflow of lower-salinity Atlantic water to the Mediterranean at the higher level through locks, turbines etc.

Clarke-magic level tech, however, would be nice to keep sea life from getting caught in all those huge turbines, while still enabling it to move freely between the two seas, even up to the size of whales ideally. Once that is sorted out, even the low-level saline outflow towards the Atlantic might be harnessed for generation of hydroelectricity.


You aren't thinking it through properly. The current opening is something like seven square kilometers. Once you establish a lower sea level in the Med you have to bring the inflow/outflow back to balance or you don't have stable sea level. So you need as much water in and out as is now going in and out, just after a bit of a pause as the level drops (or the Atlantic rises) to achieve the desired level. It is a very dynamic system that requires active management once you start down this path. Gravity, salinity, hydraulics, etc. are your friend now in a naturally controlled system. They become your enemy once you start fooling with it. Of course you can get by with smaller openings if you have pumps, but then you have other issues.

Conservation of energy tells you that if you try to harness the outflow you slow it down making it less effective. I think this is a very difficult system to balance: net in flow = evaporation, salt in = salt out, Critter access. We haven't even talked about nutrients and whether that is affected by the Straights. I wouldn't think it is a big part, but don't know.

You have a stable system now (partly being made unstable by global warming). If you start to fool with things you could introduce instabilities that are hard to foresee. Then you could wind up with an oscillating system (sea level, salt level, marine life, ...).

BTW, I see the other "solutions" to global warming (seeding the upper atmosphere, or the ocean) as equally idiotic. So do most responsible scientists. Sadly, some people are taking in on their own shoulders to "experiment" but they are doing so with other people's lives.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby edo » Sun Jul 21, 2013 11:20 pm UTC

NetWeasel wrote:
taixzo wrote:Am I misunderstanding something here? If the sea level falls, then that causes an increase in salinity due to the evaporation of the sea. But if the level remains the same, and the inflow is due to fresh water (i.e. rivers), where does the extra salt come from? Why would the salinity increase?

Under the current circumstances, less saline water comes in up top, and more saline water goes out on bottom. If you cut off the inflow/outflow or greatly reduce it, you have a net salt increase.
Which I pointed out was "a small price to pay" from the point of view of people who were about to have their land taken away by rising sea levels.

(Blindpost) Ooo that can cause some cool effects (the salt wants to return to the ocean, so it can reverse flows (the sea will suck in extra ocean to lower the salinity), cause pressure differentials, etc) I think we won't see these until the sea is almost full though
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby NetWeasel » Sun Jul 21, 2013 11:21 pm UTC

hunjoh wrote:I have been digging around looking for more info on the flood, and found this....

http://www.ictja.csic.es/gt/ivone/docs/Garcia-Castellanos_etal._Nature2009+supp.info.pdf

Spoiler:
Of particular interest to Cuegan and the Forty is Figure 3, parts C and D, which shows how long they think it took to fill the basin. Given our hypothesis that the basin is already half full, I think this gives the Forty some good news. Basically, their model shows the filling rate increasing dramatically as the cut through the Strait of Gibraltar deepens and widens. So the last part of filling West Mediterranean happens really fast. But since we are guessing that the West Mediterranean basin is already half full, it will fill during the slower initial phase of cutting the channel. Then there is a significant pause in the depth of the West Mediterranean basin as the water overflows the Sicily sill and starts to fill the East Mediterranean basin.

According to this, the basin will fill to about 500m below the Isle D'if and appear to stop. Everyone will cheer the mighty flood being over and start setting up camp. Months (or weeks, or days) later, it will start rising again.
So... at what point IS 500m below the Isle D'if?
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby CasCat » Sun Jul 21, 2013 11:22 pm UTC

k.bookbinder wrote:Well, I disgree about the state of mind of the Beanie leader. I think she was sympathetic. However, I think she may have been genuinely distraught that they missed some 40 people down there, when they wanted to evacuate everyone. Actually, I got the feeling that the leader was a bit distraught, almost panicky. Her emphatic "NO!" and restatement that the sea may rise dangerously high within days, suggests to me that even the Beanies are unprepared to deal with the consequences of such a dramatic change.


I agree that Rosetta was genuinely distressed they missed The Forty. But that, I think, just gives her a valid reason to keep the two who accidentally saved themselves from going back and committing suicide. At least this way SOME of their community will live. I honestly could understand (and even sympathize) with her holding Cuegan for their own good, if she's positive that there's no way to save their tribe.

k.bookbinder wrote:Question: now that we have a map of the Land of Time, which can be superimposed on a map of the Mediterranean, and compared to the Holy Catographer's map, has it yet been calculated how far Cuegan actually traveled? I apologize if I missed such calculations during my skimblitz.


I made a quick-and-dirty guesstimate of between 300km and 500km. I don't know if anyone's refined the numbers from there.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Gedeon » Sun Jul 21, 2013 11:27 pm UTC

I have just made some calculations... you would have to bore the outflow tunnel at rougly 1 km below surface to get below pressure equality, so that the salinity of Med stays the same, in case of a 2 m ocean increase.

Crazy project indeed. :mrgreen:

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby charlie_grumbles » Sun Jul 21, 2013 11:28 pm UTC

hunjoh wrote:I have been digging around looking for more info on the flood, and found this....

http://www.ictja.csic.es/gt/ivone/docs/Garcia-Castellanos_etal._Nature2009+supp.info.pdf

Of particular interest to Cuegan and the Forty is Figure 3, parts C and D, which shows how long they think it took to fill the basin. Given our hypothesis that the basin is already half full, I think this gives the Forty some good news. Basically, their model shows the filling rate increasing dramatically as the cut through the Strait of Gibraltar deepens and widens. So the last part of filling West Mediterranean happens really fast. But since we are guessing that the West Mediterranean basin is already half full, it will fill during the slower initial phase of cutting the channel. Then there is a significant pause in the depth of the West Mediterranean basin as the water overflows the Sicily sill and starts to fill the East Mediterranean basin.

One, I don't think we assume half full. I think we assume nearly emptied At least in volume. The sea that the Beanies showed Cuegan is quite small and in a particularly low spot in the West Med.

Second, I think the beanies believe that the opening is already in the catastrophic phase. The Librarian (hmmm, I'll never give it up) says it will fill in days. So we aren't apparently at the early seepage stage, but at the later deluge stage, instead.

I think that the 40 will have to participate in their own saving if it is to happen at all. If Cuegan go down to the level of their original home they are doomed if the beanies are correct. That is precisely where the water will go (perhaps after splashing off of Sardinia). If they meet them fleeing fast from the water pretty soon, they may make it. ChronosDragon's prediction(viewtopic.php?p=3415666#p3415666) was probably pretty accurate.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Fictioneer » Sun Jul 21, 2013 11:30 pm UTC

thunderrabbit wrote:ink or maybe mustard!


Hi, thunderrabbit! I like your username!

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby charlie_grumbles » Sun Jul 21, 2013 11:33 pm UTC

Gedeon wrote:I have just made some calculations... you would have to bore the outflow tunnel at rougly 1 km below surface to get below pressure equality, so that the salinity of Med stays the same, in case of a 2 m ocean increase.

Crazy project indeed. :mrgreen:


Yes, well, if it is just an open bore hole, what happens to the sea levels on both sides? You have to arrange one way flow. Pumps or whatever.

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby squonk » Sun Jul 21, 2013 11:33 pm UTC

Megan and Cueball are selfish jerks! I can see why everybody else in this world hates them...I myself have started rooting for them to get destroyed by the eminent flood.

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Re: Goodbye

Postby Flado » Sun Jul 21, 2013 11:34 pm UTC

AluisioASG wrote:And with this, I finish what's likely the last post on this account. And I go…

Wait, what? Why :?: :shock:
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby NetWeasel » Sun Jul 21, 2013 11:35 pm UTC

charlie_grumbles wrote:
NetWeasel wrote:OK.. the theoretical "project" would be at "wonder of the world" level engineering. Under the dam/lock system, below the underground rail system, there is a 500 meter wide pipe for the Med outflow, with some type of magicone valve system to prevent Atlantic backflow, but where the Med saline can flow out. [...]

oneClarke magic -- any sufficiently advanced tech, etc. Lets through sealife, blocks Atlantic water.

You aren't thinking it through properly.
Spoiler:
The current opening is something like seven square kilometers. Once you establish a lower sea level in the Med you have to bring the inflow/outflow back to balance or you don't have stable sea level. So you need as much water in and out as is now going in and out, just after a bit of a pause as the level drops (or the Atlantic rises) to achieve the desired level. It is a very dynamic system that requires active management once you start down this path. Gravity, salinity, hydraulics, etc. are your friend now in a naturally controlled system. They become your enemy once you start fooling with it. Of course you can get by with smaller openings if you have pumps, but then you have other issues.

Conservation of energy tells you that if you try to harness the outflow you slow it down making it less effective. I think this is a very difficult system to balance: net in flow = evaporation, salt in = salt out, Critter access. We haven't even talked about nutrients and whether that is affected by the Straights. I wouldn't think it is a big part, but don't know.

You have a stable system now (partly being made unstable by global warming). If you start to fool with things you could introduce instabilities that are hard to foresee. Then you could wind up with an oscillating system (sea level, salt level, marine life, ...).

BTW, I see the other "solutions" to global warming (seeding the upper atmosphere, or the ocean) as equally idiotic. So do most responsible scientists. Sadly, some people are taking in on their own shoulders to "experiment" but they are doing so with other people's lives.

Let me try describing this literarily....
SCENE: Late 21st century, Locks of Hercules Project Approval Meeting. Meeting in progress.

OFFICIAL: ..but I've heard all these concerns about flow rates, salinity, ocean wildlife, mineral content, health and safety... hundreds of issues.

ENGINEER: We've considered all of those issues, and more, and solved them. All we have to do is hook this special device into the system, [HOLDS UP DEVICE] and it makes it all work perfectly.

OFFICIAL: Really? That's great! [STAMPS "APPROVED" ON PROPOSAL]

..and on with the story.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Sprocket » Sun Jul 21, 2013 11:36 pm UTC

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby hunjoh » Sun Jul 21, 2013 11:36 pm UTC

charlie_grumbles wrote:
Gedeon wrote:I have just made some calculations... you would have to bore the outflow tunnel at rougly 1 km below surface to get below pressure equality, so that the salinity of Med stays the same, in case of a 2 m ocean increase.

Crazy project indeed. :mrgreen:


Yes, well, if it is just an open bore hole, what happens to the sea levels on both sides? You have to arrange one way flow. Pumps or whatever.

If I understand, the Med is saltier and denser. So at this depth the pressures are equal if the Med is 2 m lower than the Atlantic.

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Tatiana » Sun Jul 21, 2013 11:38 pm UTC

On the subject of Cuegan convincing the Forty to leave, and the beanies convincing other people to leave, there was a story of a Jewish kid in Europe during WW2. I hope I tell this right. But his entire village was slaughtered on the run up to the Nazis figuring out how their death machine was going to work. At first they would just go to Jewish villages and have them dig a big trench, then stand on the edge of the trench while the Nazi soldiers shot them all and pushed them into the trench to be buries. So this little boy had been the only one who escaped from his village, and he ran to the next village and told them what was happening and they just didn't believe him. It was too bizarre and OUR DAILY LIVES were just right here in front of them, and he was just a child and all. So they didn't do anything, and later on they were rounded up and put into the ghetto then taken to the camps and they almost all died. And of course the kid was right all along. It's weird how people's normal lives become so real to them that they can't even picture or imagine anything changing until it's too late.

In 1999 I read about a near earth asteroid, 1999AN10, that was on a possible collision course with Earth for a while until they got a longer baseline for its orbit and were able to be sure it wasn't going to hit. Suddenly when I read that, it clicked that the solar system is a shooting gallery and we really need to make an asteroid impact defense mission so in case we find one and don't have much notice we can do something right away to deflect it and save civilization. This one was about a mile or two across, if I'm remembering right, and definitely a civilization smasher. I had watched though our backyard telescope (10" aperture) when Shoemaker-Levy-9 hit Jupiter in 1992(?) It was only black smudges in the cloudtops that we saw but they were bigger than the whole earth. Anyway, since then I've tried to convince people who seem interested that an asteroid defense program was extremely important and along with only one or two assents I've gotten hundreds of denials of all flavors. They range from "oh that can't possibly true" to "it won't happen for millions of years" to "there's no way we could stop it" to "oh well if it happens it happens" to "why shouldn't humans go extinct, anyway" "it's an act of God so it would be impious to stop it". There's something so very convincing about our everyday lives, or something, that people just have to wave away real true dangers that we're well aware of and have the technology to prevent. So my experience is that it's going to be difficult for Cuegan to convince the Forty to run.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby charlie_grumbles » Sun Jul 21, 2013 11:42 pm UTC

hunjoh wrote:
charlie_grumbles wrote:
Gedeon wrote:I have just made some calculations... you would have to bore the outflow tunnel at rougly 1 km below surface to get below pressure equality, so that the salinity of Med stays the same, in case of a 2 m ocean increase.

Crazy project indeed. :mrgreen:


Yes, well, if it is just an open bore hole, what happens to the sea levels on both sides? You have to arrange one way flow. Pumps or whatever.

If I understand, the Med is saltier and denser. So at this depth the pressures are equal if the Med is 2 m lower than the Atlantic.


Ah. Missed that (I think, anyway). Thanks. So what makes it flow? Remember the current opening is 7 square km, split between in and outflow.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Gedeon » Sun Jul 21, 2013 11:46 pm UTC

charlie_grumbles wrote:
Gedeon wrote:I have just made some calculations... you would have to bore the outflow tunnel at rougly 1 km below surface to get below pressure equality, so that the salinity of Med stays the same, in case of a 2 m ocean increase.

Crazy project indeed. :mrgreen:


Yes, well, if it is just an open bore hole, what happens to the sea levels on both sides?You have to arrange one way flow. Pumps or whatever.

Damn, why do I feel like Cassandra?


Nothing happens... sea water is not SIMPLE water. But pressure physics is quite simple. If you have pipe with fluid on both sides, the flow direction is determined by the pressure difference. And because sea water is not simple, pressure is not only a function of water column depth, but also of density. Med water (because of salinity) is approx 1% denser (heavier) than ocean water. Denser water=greater pressure. Therefore, if the pipe is placed at sufficient depth, the water flows out of Med into the ocen, even though the ocean column of water is taller!

One problem we have is flow rate (how big should the pipe(s) be), but I'm too tired to calculate that :D Maybe there is a more reliable way to increase outflow pressure (and flow rate) by using incoming freshwater other than generating electricity->powering pumps.

I can see how this project can go bad in many ways, and we should try to stop the ocens from rising using green technology, but this project should be a last ditch effort if all else fails. EU alone can't stop the bad boys (USA and China) from polluting our world. OK, Europe is also not 100% green, but at least it's really trying.
Last edited by Gedeon on Sun Jul 21, 2013 11:54 pm UTC, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby hunjoh » Sun Jul 21, 2013 11:48 pm UTC

charlie_grumbles wrote:
hunjoh wrote:
charlie_grumbles wrote:
Gedeon wrote:I have just made some calculations... you would have to bore the outflow tunnel at rougly 1 km below surface to get below pressure equality, so that the salinity of Med stays the same, in case of a 2 m ocean increase.

Crazy project indeed. :mrgreen:


Yes, well, if it is just an open bore hole, what happens to the sea levels on both sides? You have to arrange one way flow. Pumps or whatever.

If I understand, the Med is saltier and denser. So at this depth the pressures are equal if the Med is 2 m lower than the Atlantic.


Ah. Missed that (I think, anyway). Thanks. So what makes it flow? Remember the current opening is 7 square km, split between in and outflow.

Water evaporates from the surface leaving denser, saltier water. That water sinks and flows down and out of the Med. Fresher, lighter Atlantic water flows in at the surface to replace the brinier outflow.

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Podcast?

Postby dm214 » Sun Jul 21, 2013 11:49 pm UTC

I think it'd be cool if we had a weekly podcast about both the OTC and the OTT. This way weekend blitzers could quickly be updated with regard to recent events.

If we ever go on with this idea, post #3327577 would be an awesome closing line:
And that's the news from Time. Where the river is small, the sea is big, all the castle walls are crenelated, and <insert recent new definition here>.

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby fatness » Sun Jul 21, 2013 11:50 pm UTC

Tatiana wrote:On the subject of Cuegan convincing the Forty to leave {...}There's something so very convincing about our everyday lives, or something, that people just have to wave away real true dangers that we're well aware of and have the technology to prevent. So my experience is that it's going to be difficult for Cuegan to convince the Forty to run.


Nicely analyzed, but it is the ultimate arrogance to assume we can control everything that may come flying our way. We live on a rock in a civilization which exists within a very tiny little bit of the universe's temperature range and even a small deviation from that (on the universe's temp scale) is enough to take us all out post haste. So standing and fighting Nature is a fool's game, one we have unfortunately convinced ourselves we can win.

Sometimes it is better to just run.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby svenman » Sun Jul 21, 2013 11:53 pm UTC

charlie_grumbles wrote:
svenman wrote:Conclusion: The Beanies must have travelled all over the Mediterranean Basin.


Yes, something like that, but you probably have to visit only 25% of the tribes, not everyone.

Agreed on this.

charlie_grumbles wrote:You aren't thinking it through properly. [...]

I must admit I obviously haven't. Both in- and outflow of water from and to the Atlantic would have to be under control in order to manage Mediterranean sea level. As for the whales, maybe they can be trained to act like ships and use the locks? Just kidding.

Anyway, I wasn't trying to argue that such a dam would be a good idea in (heresy)real life[/heresy]. However, the premise of the OTC seems to be that a dam at Gibraltar was built (I remain unconvinced that it could have been formed accidentally through earthquakes). Working backwards from that assumption, what could have been the motivation to build the dam? And things did go wrong, at least in the very long run, so the possibility remains open that the project was ill-conceived indeed, or else had very serious but anticipated drawbacks that still seemed like the lesser evil.

ETA: Oops, I seem to have been partially vindicated by Gedeon. :-)
Last edited by svenman on Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:03 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Gedeon » Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:00 am UTC

svenman wrote:I must admit I obviously haven't. Both in- and outflow of water from and to the Atlantic would have to be under control in order to manage Mediterranean sea level. As for the whales, maybe they can be trained to act like ships and use the locks? Just kidding.

Anyway, I wasn't trying to argue that such a dam would be a good idea in (heresy)real life[/heresy]. However, the premise of the OTC seems to be that a dam at Gibraltar was built (I remain unconvinced that it could have been formed accidentally through earthquakes). Working backwards from that assumption, what could have been the motivation to build the dam? And things did go wrong, at least in the very long run, so the possibility remains open that the project was ill-conceived indeed, or else had very serious but anticipated drawbacks that still seemed like the lesser evil.


Of course not, we shall build the Whalevator™!

Like I said, if the ocean starts to rise and the rest of the world says "aww fuck it"... what else should we do? The Med is much more sensitive in this regard, because cities are very close to sea-level (about a meter above or less).

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby pelrigg » Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:00 am UTC

Um ONG??????

Image

Okay what did you do Cueball????????????????
Last edited by pelrigg on Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:02 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby charlie_grumbles » Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:01 am UTC

Gedeon wrote:
charlie_grumbles wrote:
Gedeon wrote:I have just made some calculations... you would have to bore the outflow tunnel at rougly 1 km below surface to get below pressure equality, so that the salinity of Med stays the same, in case of a 2 m ocean increase.

Crazy project indeed. :mrgreen:


Yes, well, if it is just an open bore hole, what happens to the sea levels on both sides?You have to arrange one way flow. Pumps or whatever.

Damn, why do I feel like Cassandra?


Nothing happens... sea water is not SIMPLE water. But pressure physics is quite simple. If you have pipe with fluid on both sides, the flow direction is determined by the pressure difference. And because sea water is not simple, pressure is not only a function of water column depth, but also of density. Med water (because of salinity) is approx 1% denser (heavier) than ocean water. Denser water=greater pressure. Therefore, if the pipe is placed at sufficient depth, the water flows out of Med into the ocen, even though the ocean column of water is taller!

One problem we have is flow rate (how big should the pipe(s) be), but I'm too tired to calculate that :D Maybe there is a more reliable way to increase outflow pressure (and flow rate) by using incoming freshwater other than generating electricity->powering pumps.


Ah, so you have to put it below the point at which the pressure's are equal. Then you get outflow. So, if I look at Google Earth, it looks like your tunnel needs to be more than 1km down and over 50 km long. Maybe considerably more. (Width of the Straits at that depth). Am I getting it now?
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby gga2 » Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:03 am UTC

Two newpix in the same frame must mean they are down to a walking pace again. Alt-text is still "RUN."

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby a_s_h_e_n » Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:05 am UTC

pelrigg wrote:Um ONG??????

Spoiler:
Image


Okay what did you do Cueball????????????????


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Tock: Look, son, it's bad enough wasting time without killing it.

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby melmel » Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:07 am UTC

gga2 wrote:Two newpix in the same frame must mean they are down to a walking pace again. Alt-text is still "RUN."


They're definitely walking, but maybe because there's a cliff ahead? Obviously there's something Cueball sees (seas?) ahead. Oh the suspense!

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby pelrigg » Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:10 am UTC

gga2 wrote:Two newpix in the same frame must mean they are down to a walking pace again. Alt-text is still "RUN."


It looks like they're not going to blindly run just to RUN. Yes, they want to get home now; but more importantly, they want to get home safely; so when the terrain gets too rough they will slow down. I just don't think they're going to slow down to feed squirpies or look at flutterbyes.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby charlie_grumbles » Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:14 am UTC

Gedeon wrote:I can see how this project can go bad in many ways, and we should try to stop the ocens from rising using green technology, but this project should be a last ditch effort if all else fails. EU alone can't stop the bad boys (USA and China) from polluting our world. OK, Europe is also not 100% green, but at least it's really trying.

Yes, we agree there. Unfortunately the US has a dysfunctional and corrupt government (Congress). Everyone is in thrall to big oil/coal. If you can make a dollar today, why worry about tomorrow. Especially when you don't pay the costs of inaction.

svenman wrote:Anyway, I wasn't trying to argue that such a dam would be a good idea in (heresy)real life[/heresy]. However, the premise of the OTC seems to be that a dam at Gibraltar was built (I remain unconvinced that it could have been formed accidentally through earthquakes). Working backwards from that assumption, what could have been the motivation to build the dam? And things did go wrong, at least in the very long run, so the possibility remains open that the project was ill-conceived indeed, or else had very serious but anticipated drawbacks that still seemed like the lesser evil.

ETA: Oops, I seem to have been partially vindicated by Gedeon. :-)


I think the premise of the dam is entirely OTT, not OTC. I don't recall any evidence of that. Just speculation here that the beanies are somehow responsible.

Gedeon wrote:Like I said, if the ocean starts to rise and the rest of the world says "aww fuck it"... what else should we do? The Med is much more sensitive in this regard, because cities are very close to sea-level (about a meter above or less).

Erm... So is New York. Most of Bangladesh, Much of Northwest Europe. And on. It isn't just the cities on the Med.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Gedeon » Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:15 am UTC

charlie_grumbles wrote:
Ah, so you have to put it below the point at which the pressure's are equal. Then you get outflow. So, if I look at Google Earth, it looks like your tunnel needs to be more than 1km down and over 50 km long. Maybe considerably more. (Width of the Straits at that depth). Am I getting it now?


Yes... but I said this is not really feasible, so using pumps is a much better bet.
Last edited by Gedeon on Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:15 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Pikrass » Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:15 am UTC

I wonder how they'd be able to understand such books though. That being said, it would definitely provides us with enough material to understand Beanish. :D
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby svenman » Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:15 am UTC

charlie_grumbles wrote:
Spoiler:
Gedeon wrote:
charlie_grumbles wrote:
Gedeon wrote:I have just made some calculations... you would have to bore the outflow tunnel at rougly 1 km below surface to get below pressure equality, so that the salinity of Med stays the same, in case of a 2 m ocean increase.

Crazy project indeed. :mrgreen:


Yes, well, if it is just an open bore hole, what happens to the sea levels on both sides?You have to arrange one way flow. Pumps or whatever.

Damn, why do I feel like Cassandra?


Nothing happens... sea water is not SIMPLE water. But pressure physics is quite simple. If you have pipe with fluid on both sides, the flow direction is determined by the pressure difference. And because sea water is not simple, pressure is not only a function of water column depth, but also of density. Med water (because of salinity) is approx 1% denser (heavier) than ocean water. Denser water=greater pressure. Therefore, if the pipe is placed at sufficient depth, the water flows out of Med into the ocen, even though the ocean column of water is taller!

One problem we have is flow rate (how big should the pipe(s) be), but I'm too tired to calculate that :D Maybe there is a more reliable way to increase outflow pressure (and flow rate) by using incoming freshwater other than generating electricity->powering pumps.
Ah, so you have to put it below the point at which the pressure's are equal. Then you get outflow. So, if I look at Google Earth, it looks like your tunnel needs to be more than 1km down and over 50 km long. Maybe considerably more. (Width of the Straits at that depth). Am I getting it now?


Wouldn't it be sufficient to have sufficiently leak-free and incompressible big pipes laid on the sea bottom which have their ends at 1000 m depth on the Mediterranean and the Atlantic side? Pressure differential should take care of the rest, even if the pipes rise to a mere 280 m depth to cross the Camarine Sill in between. So tunneling below the seafloor would not have to be involved.
Last edited by svenman on Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:17 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby lgw » Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:16 am UTC

yappobiscuits wrote:Also, I interrupt your regular programming to bring you this ludicrously adorable ottermolpy gif that I felt needed sharing.
Spoiler:
Image

That is all, back to your regularly scheduled OTT.


That is almost too cute to stand.

Gedeon wrote:
charlie_grumbles wrote:
Gedeon wrote:I have just made some calculations... you would have to bore the outflow tunnel at rougly 1 km below surface to get below pressure equality, so that the salinity of Med stays the same, in case of a 2 m ocean increase.

Crazy project indeed. :mrgreen:


Yes, well, if it is just an open bore hole, what happens to the sea levels on both sides?You have to arrange one way flow. Pumps or whatever.

Damn, why do I feel like Cassandra?


Nothing happens... sea water is not SIMPLE water. But pressure physics is quite simple. If you have pipe with fluid on both sides, the flow direction is determined by the pressure difference. And because sea water is not simple, pressure is not only a function of water column depth, but also of density. Med water (because of salinity) is approx 1% denser (heavier) than ocean water. Denser water=greater pressure. Therefore, if the pipe is placed at sufficient depth, the water flows out of Med into the ocen, even though the ocean column of water is taller!

One problem we have is flow rate (how big should the pipe(s) be), but I'm too tired to calculate that :D Maybe there is a more reliable way to increase outflow pressure (and flow rate) by using incoming freshwater other than generating electricity->powering pumps.

I can see how this project can go bad in many ways, and we should try to stop the ocens from rising using green technology, but this project should be a last ditch effort if all else fails. EU alone can't stop the bad boys (USA and China) from polluting our world. OK, Europe is also not 100% green, but at least it's really trying.


That could actually work. Think of it as an engine. The power/heat source is the sun, which causes evaporation of the med, increasing it's salinity as a byproduct. We convert this thermal energy to mechanical energy by taking advantage of the salinity difference. Horribly inefficient, by at this scale who cares?

Problem: vast death of sea life in the turbines. Solution: new chain of sushi restaurants! Easy! Silly greens, always worrying over nothing. :p
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Gedeon » Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:19 am UTC

svenman wrote:
Wouldn't it be sufficient to have sufficiently leak-free and incompressible big pipes laid on the sea bottom which have their ends at 1000 m depth on the Mediterranean and the Atlantic side? Pressure differential should take care of the rest, even if the pipes rise to a mere 280 m depth to cross the Camarine Sill in between. So tunneling below the seafloor would not have to be involved.


Not a bad idea! I tink we should apply for EU-funded feasibility study :mrgreen:


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