## 1190: "Time"

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hunjoh
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### Re: 1190: "Time"

charlie_grumbles wrote:
hunjoh wrote:
charlie_grumbles wrote:Actually you have to get (more than) deep enough to make the pressure balance. Otherwise it draws from the Atlantic into the basin. That has been calculated already to be 1km deep.

Could you explain this? I don't understand.

Ignore for a moment the salinity question (saline is denser than fresh). A siphon pumps water from the "short" side to the "long" side because of the extra water's weight in the longer "long" side tube. That is why you can't siphon uphill, only downhill. So, if you throw a siphon over a dam, water will run from the high water side of the dam to the low. If you make the siphon tubes longer (on either side) below the water line, it won't change that. And that is what you get if you just put the Med side of the siphon a bit below sea level.

So, to make this whole saline siphon work, you have to get the "high" side on the Med side. But it doesn't have to be high in altitude, just high in pressure. So make your tubes really long on both sides, so that on the Med side you reach heavier, denser water, but not on the Atlantic side. That gives you the higher pressure to overcome the difference in height since you have "lighter" water in the Atlantic. But it takes (apparently, I'm trusting the estimates given earlier) 1km of depth to get there. But you have to balance that on the Atlantic side as well.

Let's take your dam example. I get the "high" side of the pipe under the water behind the dam. Going deeper doesn't help, I just need to make sure that the siphon tube won't suck air. But on the "low" side, the lower I go, the more pressure I develop at the outlet.

Explanation: On the "high" side it doesn't matter how deep I go because the density inside the pipe and outside the pipe are the same. So there will never be a pressure differential. On the "low" side the density outside the pipe is lower than inside the pipe, therefore the lower the pipe extends the greater the differential pressure is. Am I missing something here?

charlie_grumbles
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### Re: 1190: "Time"

cryptoengineer wrote:Undoubtedly I'll be ninja'd here, but I have a lot of problems with this.

The Med has more evaporation than is made up by rain and inflowing rivers. Thus, sea water flows in from the Atlantic, and evaporates. Denser brine flows out along the floor of the Straits of Gibraltar. During WW2, submarines used this fact to drift silently through the Strait in both directions, with their engines off.

You are right about the siphon, but not the submarines. As it turns out, none of the German submarines that went in to the Med in the way you say ever made it back out. Not that it wouldn't work, but that they were all destroyed. I read the number somewhere but forget it. Not a small number, I think. Some were detected doing this.
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Selcouth
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### Re: 1190: "Time"

pelrigg wrote:
Someguy945 wrote:
CasCat wrote:Hmm. They're not pausing to refill water bottles. Seems a little foolish. Runners (or, probably, joggers, given the distance they need to cover) need a lot of water.

We're missing so much, it's entirely possible that they refilled.

It's also possible that they haven't taken a drink yet*, so their water bottles are still full from the 2nd Beanie tower.

*Which is also a problem. (However, there are stories about American Indians being able to travel a long ways without stopping for water. {Anybody seen or read "Tell Them Willie Boy Was Here**"?})

**Edit:
Sorry; "Tell Them Willie Boy Is Here" is the correct title.

They did also pick up extra water before the tower, so they probably don't need it yet.
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ucim
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### Re: 1190: "Time"

How will these pipes deal with seismic forces? They either deform (and close up) or they remain rigid (forming a focal point for stress, which leads to earthquakes near the pipe, which can break the pipe, closing it up.

I'm still fighting off illness, so though I remember passing through some great ottifications, I can only remember the last one I heard (which was out of order, Angelastic's "Who will save the River Valley"). Kudos to all.

Audition coming soon.

Jose
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gga2
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### Re: 1190: "Time"

ONG

Keep RUN.ing

CasCat
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### MarathONG

Spoiler:

Ninja'd.

Running past Lucky's house.
BlitzGirl the Fast the First

a_s_h_e_n
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### Re: 1190: "Time"

Hope they won't be meeting Lucky 'round these parts
Tock: Look, son, it's bad enough wasting time without killing it.

Fictioneer
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### Re: 1190: "Time"

a_s_h_e_n wrote:Hope they won't be meeting Lucky 'round these parts

All the more reason to run more quickly through this stretch.

cryptoengineer
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### Re: 1190: "Time"

charlie_grumbles wrote:
cryptoengineer wrote:Undoubtedly I'll be ninja'd here, but I have a lot of problems with this.

The Med has more evaporation than is made up by rain and inflowing rivers. Thus, sea water flows in from the Atlantic, and evaporates. Denser brine flows out along the floor of the Straits of Gibraltar. During WW2, submarines used this fact to drift silently through the Strait in both directions, with their engines off.

You are right about the siphon, but not the submarines. As it turns out, none of the German submarines that went in to the Med in the way you say ever made it back out. Not that it wouldn't work, but that they were all destroyed. I read the number somewhere but forget it. Not a small number, I think. Some were detected doing this.

I sit corrected.

One other wrinkle: There's a limit to how much you can do with a siphon. If the high point is such that the pressure there falls low enough (about minus 1 atmosphere = about 34 feet of water), the water will vaporize, creating a gas pocket and stopping the siphon. This may rule out using a seabed siphon through the strait, but I haven't run the numbers.

Pikrass
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### Re: 1190: "Time"

About the poll for the voices of the OTC, why don't we use a Condorcet method rather than a plurality system? That's a better voting system to reach consensus, and we wouldn't need multiple rounds.
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pelrigg
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### Re: 1190: "Time"

CasCat wrote:Running past Lucky's house.

Fictioneer wrote:
a_s_h_e_n wrote:Hope they won't be meeting Lucky 'round these parts

All the more reason to run more quickly through this stretch.

pelrigg wrote: (There should be a pause of some sort at the cabin, I bet.)

Watches as the dealer scrapes my bet/prediction up, yet again. Uff da.
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hunjoh
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### Re: 1190: "Time"

cryptoengineer wrote:One other wrinkle: There's a limit to how much you can do with a siphon. If the high point is such that the pressure there falls low enough (about minus 1 atmosphere = about 34 feet of water), the water will vaporize, creating a gas pocket and stopping the siphon. This may rule out using a seabed siphon through the strait, but I haven't run the numbers.

I doubt that will be a problem. The high point of the siphon is 300m deep, experiencing an ambient pressure of about 30 atm. And I think we are trying to get a pressure differential across the siphon greater than 0.2 atm, but I may have lost track of the current target.

jjjdavidson
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### Re: 1190: "Time"

Does it bother anyone else that all the scenes are shifted slightly from their earlier versions? I have to wonder if Randall is deliberately making it harder for us to compare the current view to the upward journey, and that raises the question: What's going to be hiding in the grass that he doesn't want our skilled molpy-hunters to spot?
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ChronosDragon
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### Re: 1190: "Time"

jjjdavidson wrote:Does it bother anyone else that all the scenes are shifted slightly from their earlier versions? I have to wonder if Randall is deliberately making it harder for us to compare the current view to the upward journey, and that raises the question: What's going to be hiding in the grass that he doesn't want our skilled molpy-hunters to spot?

I took it as he's deliberately showing us that there are bits between scenes we're not seeing. Also, it serves to throw us off a bit, and make the situation seem more intense, I think.

Fictioneer
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### Re: 1190: "Time"

jjjdavidson wrote:Does it bother anyone else that all the scenes are shifted slightly from their earlier versions? I have to wonder if Randall is deliberately making it harder for us to compare the current view to the upward journey, and that raises the question: What's going to be hiding in the grass that he doesn't want our skilled molpy-hunters to spot?

I wish they were in one frame long enough for mscha's molpy-detection to get a good read!

moody7277
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### Re: 1190: "Time"

jjjdavidson wrote:Does it bother anyone else that all the scenes are shifted slightly from their earlier versions? I have to wonder if Randall is deliberately making it harder for us to compare the current view to the upward journey, and that raises the question: What's going to be hiding in the grass that he doesn't want our skilled molpy-hunters to spot?

A: All the molpies fleeing uphill from the flood.

Next three landmarks: weird tree, bop bush, prickly moly rock.
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pelrigg
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### Re: 1190: "Time"

moody7277 wrote:
jjjdavidson wrote:Does it bother anyone else that all the scenes are shifted slightly from their earlier versions? I have to wonder if Randall is deliberately making it harder for us to compare the current view to the upward journey, and that raises the question: What's going to be hiding in the grass that he doesn't want our skilled molpy-hunters to spot?

A: All the molpies fleeing uphill from the flood.

Next three landmarks: weird tree, bop bush, prickly moly rock.

Four: if you include the "Thousand Lifetimes" flutterby slope (M2115) in between the weird tree and the bop bush. That slope will be hard to run straight down. They'll end up going head over heels quickly. Of course, they could try to hop sideways down it.
Last edited by pelrigg on Mon Jul 22, 2013 2:57 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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### (I wish I could draw this)

Cuegan will eventually find themselves cut off from the land and surrounded by rising water. But they will be rescued in the nick of time: airlifted out by a Firefly-class transport ship. Thus ends time.
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gga2
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### Re: 1190: "Time"

Where ONG they?

thunderrabbit
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### Re: 1190: "Time"

vanished!

DavidRa
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### Re: 1190: "Time"

jjjdavidson wrote:So now I wonder: Has Randall Have the Beanies taken rebound into account in their shoreline forecasts?

I'm still about 6NP behind in my end-of-weekend ketchup, but putting two and two together here:

If we assume that petatons of water were removed over the course of years/centuries, and if we assume that the crust is indeed floating on the mantle and therefore rises and falls depending on the mass of the ground/water above it, and we assume the 500m of altitude difference is roughly correct do we perhaps come to some rather different SWAGs about things?

For example ... perhaps Chateau d'If is not going to be shoreline immediately - because it'll still be 50m? 100m? above the final shoreline (waiting for the underlying crust to sink into the mantle); thus - the castle is quite possibly quite safe even with hundred-metre waves?

(And arrgh ... spoilered by ninja-prevention attempts (aka "someone-posted-just-now-preview")!)

hunjoh
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### Re: 1190: "Time"

Does any one else see Lucky hiding behind that rock?

thunderrabbit
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### Re: 1190: "Time"

hunjoh wrote:Does any one else see Lucky hiding behind that rock?

oh dang you're right! It was weeded before, now it's got some killer curves!

previously
Spoiler:

edited N times while trying to figure out how you guys get images so quickly! esp xpatiate; it's beautiful!

xpatiate wrote:I think Lucky's catching some rays!

Spoiler:
Last edited by thunderrabbit on Mon Jul 22, 2013 3:18 am UTC, edited 2 times in total.

Fictioneer
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### Re: 1190: "Time"

pelrigg wrote:They'll end up going head over heels quickly. Of course, they could try to hop sideways down it.

...Cue fell down and broke his crown
And Meg came tumbling after [/singsong]

Moose Anus
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### Re: 1190: "Time"

nerdsniped
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### Re: 1190: "Time"

a_s_h_e_n wrote:Hope they won't be meeting Lucky 'round these parts

The mood they're in right now, I think Lucky had better hope not to meet *them*. I envision kick, thwap, "yelp", and they haven't even broken stride.

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BlueCrab
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### Re: 1190: "Time"

Another firstpost!
superluminal wrote:I finally had to delurk to say this:

What if Cuegan are just tourists and they don't know the local language? After all, many tourists like beaches and sandcastles... They might have been on the same beach before, but never wandered this far from their hotel.

(I liked this hypothesis more before Hairdo started talking...)

Hi there, superluminal! Your username sure made it hard to see if you'd been greeted yet... until I got the clever idea to check the dates on the post-list I was scrolling through

Your hypothesis is still valid - Hairdo could have learned their language in another part of the world, or from a traveller from other parts. Cuegan could be part of a tour group vacationing in the remotest places their civilization knows about, that would explain their lack of knowledge about local fauna and the steam bottle (ugh) at the same time.

(And since I'm way back on newpage 1127 (I think, could be 1128) you could already be in the present and have your answer by now!)

I'm pronouncing ‘Hairdo’ as ‘Haird-o’ in my head; it makes reading random magazine headlines a little surreal.
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hunjoh
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### Re: 1190: "Time"

hunjoh wrote:Does any one else see Lucky hiding behind that rock?

xpatiate
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### Re: 1190: "Time"

I think Lucky's catching some rays!

Spoiler:

edit: multi-ninja'd

Look at the tiny differences in the vegetation as well. So if GLR does have a single big background layer, which he's taking snapshots of for each frame, he is going back and revising it for the return journey. The attention to detail in this thing is incredible.
Last edited by xpatiate on Mon Jul 22, 2013 3:13 am UTC, edited 2 times in total.

b2bomberkrh
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### Re: 1190: "Time"

Yes, Lucky is on top of the rock, if you use the difference function on geekwagon back to frame 2182, you can see it.

ETA Ninja'd a little, but actually I think comparing to 2183 is best, cause it looks like Lucky is about to pounce on Cuegan.
Last edited by b2bomberkrh on Mon Jul 22, 2013 3:14 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.

Rule110
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### Re: 1190: "Time"

Question I've been meaning to bring up -- could the displacement (by gradual evaporation) of the mass of water in the Mediterranean after the straits were closed cause a shift in the earth's rotation axis? Could such a shift be big enough to account for the approximately 2.5 degree discrepancy between the map latitude (according to present day maps) and the apparent astronomical latitude?

ETA: Yeah, that's Lucky all right. Not behind the rock, but crouched across the top of it.
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### Re: 1190: "Time"

Oh chirp! Everyone's favourite keyboard is back!
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b2bomberkrh
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### Re: 1190: "Time"

Rule110 wrote:Question I've been meaning to bring up -- could the displacement (by gradual evaporation) of the mass of water in the Mediterranean after the straits were closed cause a shift in the earth's rotation axis? Could such a shift be big enough to account for the approximately 2.5 degree discrepancy between the map latitude (according to present day maps) and the apparent astronomical latitude?

ETA: Yeah, that's Lucky all right. Not behind the rock, but crouched across the top of it.

Without even doing a rough order of magnitude calculation, I would say definitely not. The mass of the Mediterranean is a tiny fraction of the mass of the Earth. Even the tallest mountains on the planet are basically invisible on a globe drawn to scale. The Earth is HUGE compared to the features on it's surface.

CasCat
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### Re: 1190: "Time"

So our duo is going to charge headlong right at a napping keyboard???

What a time to have to

MOLPY DOWN. <yawn>
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pelrigg
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### Re: 1190: "Time"

thunderrabbit wrote:
hunjoh wrote:Does any one else see Lucky hiding behind that rock?

oh dang you're right! It was weeded before, now it's got some killer curves!

previously
Spoiler:
http://geekwagon.net/projects/xkcd1190/?frame=2182

I'm thinking it's closer to: Lucky is ON the rock.

I wish I could see how this works out in OTC Time but I MUST coma for work tomordip. So I'll miss the breathless anticipation. (Rather I'll have about 15-16 hours of it, coma plus work plus drive-time. Oh bother.)
And I'll probably miss the NP1190 celebration, also. heavy sigh.

Molpy Down.
Wait Quickly.
Coma Out.
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We are dreamers, shapers, singers, and makers. We study the mysteries of laser and circuit, crystal and scanner, holographic demons and invocations of equations. These are the tools we employ, and we know many things.

nsub1
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### Re: 1190: "Time"

AHH SO MUCH HAPPENING!! But all I can offer is version 0.10 of Beanish Serif! All 23 base characters (22 + c) are in there! Next task: kerning and standardization, then (gasp!) vowels!

k.bookbinder
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### Re: 1190: "Time"

Rule110 wrote:Question I've been meaning to bring up -- could the displacement (by gradual evaporation) of the mass of water in the Mediterranean after the straits were closed cause a shift in the earth's rotation axis? Could such a shift be big enough to account for the approximately 2.5 degree discrepancy between the map latitude (according to present day maps) and the apparent astronomical latitude?

ETA: Yeah, that's Lucky all right. Not behind the rock, but crouched across the top of it.

I don't know that Lucky is crouched on the rock. Rather, Lucky appears as my meowpies do when they feel the need to drape themselves over some books, or perhaps on the back of the couch. To me, it appears as though Lucky is sprawled over the top of the rock, perhaps enjoying the sun.
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chem1190c
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### Re: (I wish I could draw this)

Eternal Density wrote:Cuegan will eventually find themselves cut off from the land and surrounded by rising water. But they will be rescued in the nick of time: airlifted out by a Firefly-class transport ship. Thus ends time.

FIREFL-ONG?

Spoiler:
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hunjoh
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### Re: 1190: "Time"

yappobiscuits wrote:Oh chirp! Everyone's favourite keyboard is back!
Spoiler:

I think that it may be a black keyboard.....
Last edited by hunjoh on Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:17 pm UTC, edited 2 times in total.

poxic
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### Re: 1190: "Time"

There have been comparisons between Time and animation/film. I'm starting to think of it more like "life":

- You can't rewind to an earlier scene (from the comic itself). You can't fast forward to a later one. You can't fiddle with the running of it at all.

- If you missed some of it, you have to hope someone has a recording. In fact, it would be difficult to experience even half of it directly -- to know the whole story, you must rely on other people.

- Even then, the various repositories might be getting out of sync. If the comic goes for years, archivists will likely come and go. There may be no "one true history" by the time we're done with this (if we ever are).

I'm increasingly impressed by the comic, the longer it runs. It's as though it has gone so far beyond "meta" that it's wrapped around on itself and become a real thing, except not, but then, but yeah.
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