Page 974 of 2684

Stars

Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 5:16 am UTC
by BlitzGirl
azule wrote:
Ximenez wrote:Up to now the consensus is that Time frames depict a 2 1/2 D universe, or a 1/3 q slice of a 3D universe. If this is so, then the sun is just a few cm cq behind the tree and is really small. Same for the "sky", which I bet is made of some sort of mustard.
Well, the sun is made of light. The light travels, physically, to the Time Slice, therefore it is present. A bush or mountain in the background stays where it is, therefore it does not get to be part of this slice.

Part of my basis for this theory is that the background is white, and white is light. So it has been true the whole time.

Makes sense to me. :)

ETA:
Spoiler:
Image
The Newpage of Stars
I don't really have a decree, more of a friendly request, really. It's quite optional. I fancy a star theme for this newpage, since the OTC has been full of them for a while. So post your speculations, your ottifications, your manipulations of the stars, or tell me your theories on Time's stars, or how Cuegan might feel about them. How might LaPetite, or Lucky, or the other molpies? What is your favorite constellation, and has it appeared in the OTC yet? Will it? Share your favorite song or quote about stars. Perhaps just use the word "star" in your post, or find a star-themed smiley. And now I've already gone on too long about stars. But you get the idea.

Re: 1190: "Time"

Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 5:24 am UTC
by taixzo
Buffygirl - that was awesomeful! Viva la vida is one of my favorite songs! (Now if only we had a recording of this version - at this rate, we'll have to hire someone full-time to record all the OTTifications!)

Re: 1190: "Time"

Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 5:28 am UTC
by BigDaddy
azule wrote:
Ximenez wrote:Up to now the consensus is that Time frames depict a 2 1/2 D universe, or a 1/3 q slice of a 3D universe. If this is so, then the sun is just a few cm cq behind the tree and is really small. Same for the "sky", which I bet is made of some sort of mustard.
Well, the sun is made of light. The light travels, physically, to the Time Slice, therefore it is present. A bush or mountain in the background stays where it is, therefore it does not get to be part of this slice


I think we only see what's in focus. Anything too far or close would be too blurry.

Per decree: favorite song about a star is Why Does the Sun Shine? by They Might Be Giants. Was gonna filk if I ever got time. Between work and baby not much left. Should coma.

The Stars of the Othercomic

Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 5:29 am UTC
by BlitzGirl
Because it's all related:

Othercomic #811: Starlight
Image

Re: 1190: "Time"

Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 5:31 am UTC
by ChronosDragon
Needless to say, I think, my favorite constellation is Draco!

Image

I'm astronomically illiterate, so I couldn't tell you if it's anywhere near being on frame or not :P

And with that little post-note I'm off to coma! Will be back at home tomorrow, and perhaps do a proper ketchup, as well as change out my avatar ;)

Re: 1190: "Time"

Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 5:43 am UTC
by ucim
kenmelken wrote:In memory of my days of being an Africanist, I offer this happy picture of a molpephant meeting a sea-lionraptorcat:
Spoiler:
Image
When I first saw that, the blue area looked like a cat (outline) facing left. It's hard for me to unsee, and it took some time before I could see the actual image!

Hopefully if we aren't in Africa, we can still be in a Randallverse where Cuegan may yet meet a molpephant.


@Rule110 That was an awesome explanation! You are like unto the Baobobs. And while I'm @ you, I loved your Starry Starry Night ottification... favorite line: "Perhaps there's only... now?". Very touching.

@Buffygirl: I also loved Viva la Vida

@Angelastic: Really treeish When You Wish Upon a Star. fhorn's too. Both awesome in their own way, neither lesser than the other.

k.bookbinder wrote:I wanted to share this wonderful video, about a molpy in distress who gets a helping hand set of wheels.
Thanks; that was a touching video!

@BytEfLUSh: Nice ottification of Under The Milky Way. I was not previously familiar with The Church (I know, an odd thing for the Pope of the Holy Contradiction to say!)

Welcome back KarMann! We missed you! (I know I did!). And it's great to hear from charlie_grumbles. Remember always the words of our own BlitzGirl the First: "As grains of Sand(semencancercoffeebabies) in a Sandcastle, this needle-pulled thing works best when we are not all of the same shape. Our quirks clasp us together all the more strongly, so that when we Wait for it together - whatever Time we may travel, whatever sect we may splinter, whatever graph or song or hat we share - we are not alone. For though Time may scatter us among the pastposts and the Present, in the end, it is also what brought us to this mad, mad, glorious home in the first place." The Truth of this utterance has shown itself to be so time after Time; in a practical sense most recently during the meteor, but in a personal sense all the time. Once in the tribe, always in the tribe.

azule wrote:Part of my basis for this theory is that the background is white, and white is light.
So that explains why the white pixels are on top. The heavier black pixels sink to the bottom of the frame!

Two things about stars.

One is I'm loving the starry night in the OTC. I sense some impatience - are we perhaps forgetting the Great Commandment? The meteor is a reminder. The stars are utterly beautiful, and when I'm away from city lights I can gaze at them for a long, long time.

Two is that we are all stars here. And that is quite special - a treasure even.

Flado wrote:I've come to the discussion of Schizoblitzing, and I kind of like the idea of doing it. But:
a) I've been made contradictory§ BlitzGirl the Next on the promise that I will be blitzing properly, and
b) It is sometimes fun to "drop a bomb in the future" and look at the explosion a mip later (reminds me vaguely of CMB)
So I face a dilemma: to schizoblitz, or to remain strictly orthodox?
Even within the Church of the Holy Contradiction, there are two lines of thought on this... at least to the extent that there is any thought at all in the Church of the Holy Contradiction. An absolutely pure Blitz, in which one feels the void of not having experienced Time in its proper time, and with a pure heart totally forsaking the future to pursue the Most Holy Quest, is also categorically impossible. One cannot truly feel the void without experiencing at least some future time, and at that point one's Quest is always tainted (or blessed, if you will) with the knowledge of that particular future. It is true that one can simply decide to Blitz, having never seen the OTC or the OTT, and while that Quest is pure on the one side, the void has not truly been experienced in one's soul. So, the ideal canonical BlitzQuest cannot be experienced in This Life, but only in the Next Life. Of course, being Categorically Impossible, many believe it to be Gloriously Inevitable.

Contradiction is not so simple however, as you well know (being the retired Patriarch of the Western Paradox Church and all), and these questions have kept our clerics busily employed for many yips. It keeps them out of trouble, and is probably just as well.

You have run into taixzo's question of whether or not to SchitzoBlitz. As you probably know by now, taixzo decided that the One True Way was to actually forsake the present rather than risk distraction from the Most Holy Quest. taixzo Blitzed at the unheard of speed of over one hundred NewPages per Heretical Day. This was once thought to be impossible, but if one is monastic about it, Blitzing the way Heretical monastic clerics pray, it can be done. Ironically, when taixzo's arrived into the present, there had already been another such BlitzRocket: CasCat had done the same thing a few days prior, unannounced!

So, you can take that as inspiration. It is true that not everyone can enter a monestary to experience Time in its own time, but that is really the key to it all. The purpose of Blitzing is to experience Time in its own time. For most, this will mean forsaking the present, so as to allow the past to become the present, because knowledge of the present is what puts the past in the past. There are events in your future, which are in our past, where knowledge of them will likely prevent you from experiencing them as the present. You will know as you go through those times, but you cannot know until you do so. The very temptation to peek into the future is indicative of the need to maintain your spiritual dicipline, for if you were never tempted, the future wouldn't be mattering much, and there would be no special calling to Blitz in the first place.

As Pope of the Order of the Holy Contradiction, I lean towards Orthodoxy. But in the end, it is not for me to judge; that judgement, should it come, is done on a higher plane.

For further spiritual guidance, I would refer you to the other Blitzers; their insight is beyond value. At the moment they include BlitzGirl herself, PhoenixRising, Selcouth, Vytron, and our two "BlitzGirl the Fasts", taixzo and CasCat.

Jose
Pope of the Order of the Holy Contradiction
eta stars and azule's observation

Re: 1190: "Time"

Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 5:52 am UTC
by MattTheTubaGuy
moody7277 wrote:@ MatttheTubaGuy:
My jaw hitta da floor after seeing the composite image you stitched. Truly awesome.
.

Thank NoMouse for the stitching they did all the work.
I just drew blue lines all over it! :D

Words about Stars

Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 5:53 am UTC
by BlitzGirl
Good advice as always, Jose. :)

And now for some quotes about stars:
Bill Watterson wrote:“If people sat outside and looked at the stars each night, I'll bet they'd live a lot differently. ”

Anne Morrow Lindbergh wrote:"I have been overcome by the beauty and richness of our life together, those early mornings setting out, those evenings gleaming with rivers and lakes below us, still holding the last light. ... Those fields of daisies we landed on, and dusty fields and desert stretches. Memories of many skies and earths beneath us — many days, many nights of stars."

Og Mandino wrote:“I will love the light for it shows me the way, yet I will endure the darkness for it shows me the stars.”

Ralph Waldo Emerson wrote:“If the stars should appear one night in a thousand years, how would men believe and adore; and preserve for many generations the remembrance of the city of God which had been shown! But every night come out these envoys of beauty, and light the universe with their admonishing smile.”

Spoiler:
If the stars should appear as one frame in a thousand newpix, how would Timewaiters would believe and adore, and preserve for many newpages the remembrance of the grand vision of Randall which had been shown! But now each newpix brings these envoys of beauty, which light the One True Thread with their admonishing smile: Wait for it.

Re: 1190: "Time"

Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 5:58 am UTC
by kenmelken
Okay. I'm 6 NewPages behind. I can spend the next little while ketching up, or working more on the wiki.

Hmm....

I actually feel more behind on the wiki than the OTT right now, so I think I'm gonna do that. But don't worry; I'll ketch up in the next day or two. Wait well.
Main goal tonight: write the Meowlpy Attack article!

Re: 1190: "Time"

Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 6:01 am UTC
by spamjam
ALMOSTPLANETLESSONG
Image

Re: 1190: "Time and a Word"

Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 6:02 am UTC
by Kazza3
A while back, in the depths of astronomical disovery, there were some complaints that too much emphasis was being given to the messages of the stars, and all the previous evidence as to Cuegan's time and place was being ignored. It seems like it wouldn't be a bad idea to attempt to gather all the said evidence of these events, evidence of all kinds and contradictions, that could be used to infer a time and place for Cuegan. The wiki already has this, which is very useful, but that's also a description of how everything came to be discovered, and doesn't include everything here. I feel profoundly ill-equipped to attempt such a task, even though it's just collecting info other people have provided, but I'll do some bits off the top of my head- this is just a rough idea- feel free to suggest things!

Spoiler:
Astronomical evidence
The current conclusions of from studying the movement of the constellations, the sun, Venus and Jupiter, seem to be:
-That the date is 10th of April, 13291 (and at the very least is thousands of years into the future).
-That the location is somewhere between 39-40°N and between 37-158°W (ie, a thin strip across what is currently North America).
Image
-The sun is possibly larger than it is at the current time, though it could just look that way due to glare.

Geographical, geological and hydrological
-The locale of Cuegan's journey looks roughly like this:
Edfelmap.jpg

-Notable features include
    -A river flowing from a mountain or mountain range, which has cut a steep valley into the mountain at that end
    -A large waterfall
    -A river delta
-A sea which is rising quickly, for apparently unknown reasons

Biological and molpiological

-General suggestions of African biome
-Animals sighted so far:
    -Humans
    -Bird 1 (seabird?)
    -Possible mole?
    -Snake (brown, shiny, blotchy, horned- possibly Calabar Python)
    -Insects (at least one probably a butterfly, others possibly bees, flies)
    -Squirrel
    -Bird 2 (songbird?)
    -Hedgehog?
    -Bird 3 (hawk?)
    -Large feline (leopard?)

Plants:
    -Grandidier's Baobab
    -Edible berries of some kind
    -Grapevine (presumed)
    -Weird tree with inedible berries (Juniper?)

Cultural

-There are apparently at least two other groups of humans, the People in the Hills and mountain people, and possibly a group from which Cuegan come

-Cuegan appear to speak English (but, like in many stories, this could be being translated for our benefit)
-Another language or method of written communication is in existence, etched into a baobab

Other items and structures of human origin (all included, not just anything interesting/surprising):
    -Sandcastles, possibly implying knowledge of castles more generally, as well as crenellations and flags
    -Trebuchets
    -Ladders
    -Relatively complex wooden pole structures
    -Pulleys
    -Berets
    -Water bladders/bags
    -Campsites/fire
    -Cairns
    -Vineyards (apparently)
    -Rafts
    -Furniture of some kind
    -Small single-room building/habitation
    -Wells
    -Shovels
    -Buckets
    -Bowls


(I apologise for using some heretical terms for clarity. I claim no credit for anything. Thanks especially to Edfel and the editors of the wiki.)

Chapter 21 of the Gospel of tman2nd

Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 6:03 am UTC
by tman2nd
Sorry, for not falling silent for a while with no explanation. After going back and forth between blitzposting and not, I have decided to focus all my energy on blitzing. I should be done soon.

I do have one more thing to say. I encountered one of my blitzposts in which I wrote this,
tman2nd wrote:And one last thing,
Spoiler:
My text is the smallest!


In the spoiler, I put size 1 text saying, "My text is the smallest." It was meant as a reference to Vytron and and someone elseA making their text as big as possible. Coincidentally, I made this blitzpost while others were attempting to slow down the blitzers making their text extremely small.

It's all related.

Re: 1190: "Time and a Word"

Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 6:31 am UTC
by kenmelken
Kazza3 wrote:A while back, in the depths of astronomical disovery, there were some complaints that too much emphasis was being given to the messages of the stars, and all the previous evidence as to Cuegan's time and place was being ignored. It seems like it wouldn't be a bad idea to attempt to gather all the said evidence of these events, evidence of all kinds and contradictions, that could be used to infer a time and place for Cuegan. The wiki already has this, which is very useful, but that's also a description of how everything came to be discovered, and doesn't include everything here. I feel profoundly ill-equipped to attempt such a task, even though it's just collecting info other people have provided, but I'll do some bits off the top of my head- this is just a rough idea- feel free to suggest things!

Spoiler:
Astronomical evidence
The current conclusions of from studying the movement of the constellations, the sun, Venus and Jupiter, seem to be:
-That the date is 10th of April, 13291 (and at the very least is thousands of years into the future).
-That the location is somewhere between 39-40°N and between 37-158°W (ie, a thin strip across what is currently North America).
Image
-The sun is possibly larger than it is at the current time, though it could just look that way due to glare.

Geographical, geological and hydrological
-The locale of Cuegan's journey looks roughly like this:
Edfelmap.jpg

-Notable features include
    -A river flowing from a mountain or mountain range, which has cut a steep valley into the mountain at that end
    -A large waterfall
    -A river delta
-A sea which is rising quickly, for apparently unknown reasons

Biological and molpiological

-General suggestions of African biome
-Animals sighted so far:
    -Humans
    -Bird 1 (seabird?)
    -Possible mole?
    -Snake (brown, shiny, blotchy, horned- possibly Calabar Python)
    -Insects (at least one probably a butterfly, others possibly bees, flies)
    -Squirrel
    -Bird 2 (songbird?)
    -Hedgehog?
    -Bird 3 (hawk?)
    -Large feline (leopard?)

Plants:
    -Grandidier's Baobab
    -Edible berries of some kind
    -Grapevine (presumed)
    -Weird tree with inedible berries (Juniper?)

Cultural

-There are apparently at least two other groups of humans, the People in the Hills and mountain people, and possibly a group from which Cuegan come

-Cuegan appear to speak English (but, like in many stories, this could be being translated for our benefit)
-Another language or method of written communication is in existence, etched into a baobab

Other items and structures of human origin (all included, not just anything interesting/surprising):
    -Sandcastles, possibly implying knowledge of castles more generally, as well as crenellations and flags
    -Trebuchets
    -Ladders
    -Relatively complex wooden pole structures
    -Pulleys
    -Berets
    -Water bladders/bags
    -Campsites/fire
    -Cairns
    -Vineyards (apparently)
    -Rafts
    -Furniture of some kind
    -Small single-room building/habitation
    -Wells
    -Shovels
    -Buckets
    -Bowls


(I apologise for using some heretical terms for clarity. I claim no credit for anything. Thanks especially to Edfel and the editors of the wiki.)


THIS IS FANTASTIC! I'm going to add it to the Wiki tonight while I'm doing the other work I'm doing. :) Thanks so much! Super helpful!

Dark star crashes, pouring its light into ashes

Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 6:46 am UTC
by spamjam
I'm finally ketchuped and happy to see that the whole meteoric event was captured for posterity. I am disappointed that the meteor's path was curved, as that just doesn't happen in real life. But the effect was4. Fairly bright meteor too; about as bright as Jupiter.

@Rule110: Awesomeful description of how the West was one(s and for all kind of pinned down).

Shall we go,
you and I
While we can?
Through
the transitive nightfall
of diamonds

Re: 1190: "Time"

Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 7:01 am UTC
by Exodies
Kieryn wrote:Ok. My 2nd theory, if not clouds and assuming that the darkening is actually due to a setting sun:

The changing lighting indicates to me that a larger brighter sun actually already just set and the one remaining is a smaller not quite as bright star. They are therefore not on any version of earth or even our solar system.

The light changes as the sun sets, but due to our crappy eyes it's difficult to see it as darkening. Depending on the greyscale mapping change of colour can appear to be darkening in a black and white world.

Good Morning Starshine

Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 7:04 am UTC
by spamjam
PISCESONG
Image

Re: 1190: "Time"

Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 7:31 am UTC
by TheMinim
River talk! It has retracted! We're getting somewhere back here!

Re: 1190: "Time"

Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 7:38 am UTC
by TheMinim
It's BlitzGirl! Hi past BlitzGirl!

I have no idea why I am so excited about that...

Under the Same Stars

Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 7:49 am UTC
by BlitzGirl
Image

More fanart - turned out a bit darker than anticipated, hope y'all can see it...

Redundant spoiler:
Spoiler:
Image
UnderTheSameStars.png

redundant13.png


Oh, and hi blitzing-the-past Minim!
(I know this is present BlitzGirl and not past BlitzGirl, but I had to say hi back!)

Re: 1190: "Time and a Word"

Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 7:55 am UTC
by Kazza3
kenmelken wrote:
Kazza3 wrote:A while back, in the depths of astronomical disovery, there were some complaints that too much emphasis was being given to the messages of the stars, and all the previous evidence as to Cuegan's time and place was being ignored. It seems like it wouldn't be a bad idea to attempt to gather all the said evidence of these events, evidence of all kinds and contradictions, that could be used to infer a time and place for Cuegan. The wiki already has this, which is very useful, but that's also a description of how everything came to be discovered, and doesn't include everything here. I feel profoundly ill-equipped to attempt such a task, even though it's just collecting info other people have provided, but I'll do some bits off the top of my head- this is just a rough idea- feel free to suggest things!

Spoiler:
Astronomical evidence
The current conclusions of from studying the movement of the constellations, the sun, Venus and Jupiter, seem to be:
-That the date is 10th of April, 13291 (and at the very least is thousands of years into the future).
-That the location is somewhere between 39-40°N and between 37-158°W (ie, a thin strip across what is currently North America).
Image
-The sun is possibly larger than it is at the current time, though it could just look that way due to glare.

Geographical, geological and hydrological
-The locale of Cuegan's journey looks roughly like this:
Edfelmap.jpg

-Notable features include
    -A river flowing from a mountain or mountain range, which has cut a steep valley into the mountain at that end
    -A large waterfall
    -A river delta
-A sea which is rising quickly, for apparently unknown reasons

Biological and molpiological

-General suggestions of African biome
-Animals sighted so far:
    -Humans
    -Bird 1 (seabird?)
    -Possible mole?
    -Snake (brown, shiny, blotchy, horned- possibly Calabar Python)
    -Insects (at least one probably a butterfly, others possibly bees, flies)
    -Squirrel
    -Bird 2 (songbird?)
    -Hedgehog?
    -Bird 3 (hawk?)
    -Large feline (leopard?)

Plants:
    -Grandidier's Baobab
    -Edible berries of some kind
    -Grapevine (presumed)
    -Weird tree with inedible berries (Juniper?)

Cultural

-There are apparently at least two other groups of humans, the People in the Hills and mountain people, and possibly a group from which Cuegan come

-Cuegan appear to speak English (but, like in many stories, this could be being translated for our benefit)
-Another language or method of written communication is in existence, etched into a baobab

Other items and structures of human origin (all included, not just anything interesting/surprising):
    -Sandcastles, possibly implying knowledge of castles more generally, as well as crenellations and flags
    -Trebuchets
    -Ladders
    -Relatively complex wooden pole structures
    -Pulleys
    -Berets
    -Water bladders/bags
    -Campsites/fire
    -Cairns
    -Vineyards (apparently)
    -Rafts
    -Furniture of some kind
    -Small single-room building/habitation
    -Wells
    -Shovels
    -Buckets
    -Bowls


(I apologise for using some heretical terms for clarity. I claim no credit for anything. Thanks especially to Edfel and the editors of the wiki.)


THIS IS FANTASTIC! I'm going to add it to the Wiki tonight while I'm doing the other work I'm doing. :) Thanks so much! Super helpful!


Thanks! But it isn't comprehensive, and I really should add pictures of each molpy, with some possible species identifications and their ranges, to be useful.


Aside from that, speculation:
I'm going to assume that the year is indeed roughly 13291, in North America. Most of the other creatures have reasonable American explanations, but what about the baobab? It's very unlikely to have spread there on it's own, being an endangered, long-living, slow-growing kind of a tree. Much more likely is that would have been planted there- which makes sense, given that there's a grove of them on there own- maybe the markings on one tree relate to this? If any of this is the case, then the baobabs and the people who planted them must have some kind of relevance to the plot, because Chekhov's gun.
The latitudes given are also problematic, climate-wise, for baobabs. However, we're talking 10000 years into the future, and there are way too many factors to say with any certainty how the climate will have changed. Assuming the above, we can probably also assume that the world hasn't entered the next glacial period, and it would make more sense for the climate to in fact be warmer, which would create more favourable temperatures for baobabs at those latitudes (note also: rising sea?). I'd also suggest west coast is more likely on this front.

Re: 1190: "Time"

Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 8:02 am UTC
by Montov
Image

********************************************************

Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 8:16 am UTC
by spamjam
Dark Star>
California Stars>
Dark Star
was part of Wilco's set in Atlanta Saturday night, with Bob Weir sitting in, and with Nels Cline playing Duane Allman's gold top Les Paul.

Now back to your regularly unscheduled OTT...

Re: 1190: "Time"

Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 8:21 am UTC
by kenmelken
Okay. I need to coma right now. But I've written the summary for the Attack period article. Discussion, mustard, and expanded molpies sections to come soon! This summary is one of the lengthiest I've written. That was a long and intense period! Between the actual attack itself and all the medical aftermath and discussion, it is a hefty piece of the OTC!

Also, I've taken Kazza3's wonderful summary of all the categorical observations so far and put them into a new article, called Setting which is separate from the theories list article. I'm sure there is more some of y'all can add to this one. It actually was perfect for a setting article, which is an article I've intended to make for some time now (and in fact have left several red links to in the past).

And now, I must coma. Tomorrow I hope to do even more Wiki work and ketch up those 6 NPs I still haven't had a chance to read.

Re: 1190: "Time"

Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 8:24 am UTC
by Wildhound
Rule110 wrote:
k.bookbinder wrote:Good mornix all. Molpy up!

What has Cueball just gathered? Stones? I see that, with no moon as reference, it seems nearly impossible to come to some consensus as to where and when they might be located, though, all analysis seems to get everyone in the same general latitudinal range.

Again though, I must ask, because I am still not quite satisfied, regarding our direction as observers: Is everyone assuming that, as we are observing Time, we are facing West and are parallel with latitudinal lines? Because we are not a part of Time, but apart from it, if we were faced Northwest or West by Northwest, would that not change the relative celestial positions, and therefore, change the outcome of the analysis?


We are assuming that we're facing generally west, because that's where the sun set.

We are not assuming that we're facing exactly west. In fact, the current apparent consensus (or at least, majority position) is that we are facing a little bit north of west, and that west is approximately toward the trunk of the prominent tree. Why we think that is a little hard to explain, but here goes.

Seaish explantion follows.
Spoiler:
Suppose you wanted to draw pictures of how the stars move. You go out on a clear night with a toilet paper tube (because you want to mask out distractions, and you don't trust lenses), and you look through it (for hours at a time, long enough for the stars to move a long way in the sky) in different directions. As it happens, you're in the northern hemisphere at a moderate latitude, like in central Illinois. (If you were elsewhere, such as Australia, the individual pictures would look different, but the overall phenomena described would work the same.)

If you look northwest, you'll see the stars moving like this:
starviews_nw.png


Why? Because you're looking at the lower left quadrant of this:
Image
Which is the northern stars circling counterclockwise around a hub near Polaris. which is visible to you in the northern sky. (That is, if you point your toilet paper tube due north, and up at about a 40 degree angle, you'll see the North Star and other stars making counterclocwise circles around it, like near the top right of the above photo). That hub is the projection of the earth's axis of rotation onto the apparent celestial sphere.

If you look southwest, you'll see the stars moving like this instead:
starviews_sw.png


This is because, like in the northwest view, you're seeing stars rotating around a hub, in this case the celestial south pole. It looks different, though, for two reasons. One is that in this case the hub is well below the horizon, so you're seeing the upper right quadrant of the rotation instead of the lower left quadrant. The other is that the rotation is clockwise instead of counterclockwise. (The celestial sphere is one big rotating thing that all rotates in the same direction, but you're now looking toward the other end of it. Imagine standing inside a giant barrel placed horizontally and tumbling, that is, rotating around its axis. These used to be commmon in funhouses. Suppose the barrel is rotating counterclockwise as you face toward the end of the barrel that's ahead of you. If you turn around and look behind you, it will be rotating counterclockwise. Clockwise and counterclockwise are always relative to your facing. Even the hands of a conventional clock would go counterclockwise, if the workings of the clock were transparent and you looked at the hands from behind the clock face.)

Finally, you look due west. You'll see the stars moving like this:
starviews_w.png


These stars are near the celestial equator. They're making circles too, just like the northern stars and the southern stars, but for these circles, you're standing at the center of the circles. You are standing on (or so near as to make literally no difference at all, a mere few thousand miles compared to the effectively infinite distances of the stars) the axis they're rotating around. So their paths appear to be straight lines, just like a disc appears to be a straight line when you look at it edge-on, and just like the horizon appears to be a straight line even though it is encircling you.

However, if you could measure more closely (you'd have to mount your toilet paper tube on a sturdy tripod, instead of free-handing it resulting in the wiggly and not very accurate lines I drew), only stars that are exactly on the celestial equator make exactly straight lines. For the ones a little south (left) of the equator, you're standing a little to the right of the centers of their circles, so they'll appear to curve away from you just a little to the left as they set. And similarly for the ones a little north (right) of the equator; they'll appear to curve away from you just a little to the right as they set.

Now, having studied the motions of the stars in three different directions, you decide you want to plaint a big panorama painting that shows all that motion on one wide canvas. You don't want to distort anything; you want the painting to show what you actually see, so star trails way to the left of the painting (southwest) will curve more and more to the left as they get nearer the horizon, and star trails way to the right will curve more and more to the right as they get nearer the horizon, and star trails near the middle (west) will be nearly straight. You want a realistic painting (no cubism), so you realize that you need to show this as a continuous change across the width of the canvas, from left-curving to straight to right-curving.

As a result, the star trails you paint will not be parallel to one another. The trails will squeeze together near the center of the painting (especially, along a line from the lower left to the upper right corners), and seem to spread apart at the lower right and upper left corners, in the same way (and for the same reason) that many world map projections seem to squeeze the continents together near the equator and spread them apart nearer the poles.

If instead of a very wide panorama, you want only a typical wide angle camera view generally toward the west, the squeezing and spreading will be less dramatic, but you'll still see, going left to right across the frame, star trails curving to the left, then curving less, then straight, then curving right, then curving right more.

The effect will be something like this:

Image

Note that this picture is looking east, where everything is rising instead of setting, and therefore is also tilted the opposite way, but it works the same way. This link to the image source has an explanation of what it shows and how it was made. Quoting the page, the image "shows very well how the stars near the celestial Equator trace lines that are almost straight, while the stars at the North and South of the Equator, respectively, appear to draw circles between the celestial North and South poles."

Now, I turn your attention to edfel's excellent "time lapse" composite image of the OTC:

Image

It shows all the things I've been talking about. The star trails curve to the right (as they get closer to setting) toward the right (more northerly) side of the frame. The farther right, the more they curve, but where they cross the tree they're curving very little, and the (rather faint) star trail that crosses near the base of the trunk of the tree looks very straight. The trails farthest left (also rather faint) curve to the left instead, though you might have to use a straightedge or a line drawing program to see it.

This makes me confident (though not absolutely certain) that the celestial equator crosses near the base of the tree trunk, and where that meets the horizon (which might not be exactly where it meets the visible ground) is true west.

There is another possibility: that the view is distorted; that is to say, distorted in a different way than what we usually expect. It would be possible, for instance, to find a projection (or physically craft a lens) that creates a view where one of the curved lines toward the right becomes straight. Then, we'd be fooled into thinking that's the celestial equator instead. That's why we sometimes qualify our conclusions with "...unless it's a projection error."

*puts down chalk* Any questions?


Blind posting to say that this master class is epic, and thanks.

Molpies can be stars, right?

Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 8:25 am UTC
by BlitzGirl
Nice wiki-work, kenmelken! Have a good coma! :) And now for an ottification:

Molpy, Molpy, There You Are
To the tune of "Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star"
Spoiler:
Molpy, molpy, there you are,
Lit by light of falling star.
Watch the heavens turn on high,
Molp beneath the seaish sky
Molpy, molpy, there you are,
Lit by light of falling star.

Re: 1190: "Time"

Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 9:01 am UTC
by spamjam
NAPTIMESOVERONG
Image

Re: 1190: "Time"

Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 9:02 am UTC
by TheMinim
Trying to speed-Blitz now to get to the future. The future's too alluring. When I get there, I want cookies.

Please?

Gold Star Time!

Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 9:07 am UTC
by BlitzGirl
Don't worry, Minim, I know a good recipe for cookies! I got it from elementropy about 700 newpages ago. :)
And kudos to yappo for predicting that night-dialogue would appear as a lighter shade of gray, when making his ufottification! Gold star for you! Image

Re: 1190: "Time"

Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 9:15 am UTC
by ZoomanSP
@Angelastic, fhornI liked both of your versions of "When You Wish Upon a Star"!
@BytEfLUSh Nice ottification, too!
@BlitzGirl "Molpy, Molpy, There You Are" is 4.

k.bookbinder wrote:I have got it! NoMouse, should you accept, I would like to bestow upon you (though I have no official power to do so) the title of OTT Astro-Tailor, for your wonderful star stitchery.

Seconded! (without any official power, either)

spamjam wrote:I'm finally ketchuped and happy to see that the whole meteoric event was captured for posterity. I am disappointed that the meteor's path was curved, as that just doesn't happen in real life. But the effect was4. Fairly bright meteor too; about as bright as Jupiter.

I don't know how projections of the sperical night sky on a planar TimeFrame work, but maybe the apparent curvature of the path of the meteor can be used to calculate the effective distortions, assuming that the path was straight inside the OTC?

Re: Molpies can be stars, right?

Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 9:21 am UTC
by edfel
BlitzGirl wrote:Nice wiki-work, kenmelken! ...

Really nice work indeed! /me thinks, that the wiki is becoming consistent enough for an ersatz of a blitz (dividing the necessary reading time by...50?, and catching most aspects of the disucssion.

BlitzGirl wrote:... Molpy, Molpy, There You Are ...


4Neat!

BlitzGirl wrote:...Molp beneath the seaish sky


Molpy Molping Molpy Molping Happy Molpy Molpy Molping Happy Molpy Molping Molpy Molpy Happy Molpy Molping Happily! -star! it's a star!

Re: 1190: "Time"

Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 9:34 am UTC
by rvloon
mscha wrote:
edfel wrote:Hey guys, did you notice the javascript !?
I mean, actually, if it was possible to see the meteor live (which I didn't, sadly), then the javascript was able to retrieve these frames without overloading the server. Shouldn't it be possible to execute the same code for newpixbot?

It could, potentially, but I'm not gonna write it. Image
This was most likely a one-time event. And at least newpixbot caught it, so that y'all otters could go and check their cache, so that we could complete the list. In other words, the system works. Image
(If there are more frames than these five, an enhanced newpixbot wouldn't have caught them either, since it'd be doing the exact same thing.)


It's always great to see people visit that great tourist attraction called the Land of Denial. Yeah, but once happened, it will never happen again. Sure. Just a one-off. Uh-uh.

You keep thinking that, my boy. There, there, now.

Ronald

PS: just to be sure: :wink:

Re: 1190: "Time"

Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 9:56 am UTC
by edfel
ZoomanSP wrote:snip
I don't know how projections of the sperical night sky on a planar TimeFrame work, but maybe the apparent curvature of the path of the meteor can be used to calculate the effective distortions, assuming that the path was straight inside the OTC?


Hmmm.... indeed, it could help. But that's assuming that the meteor was drawn with as much precision as the stars, and not only manually drawn above the star ceiling. Also, it would give the distortion at this particular place of the frame, which is not complete.

There's another method, which I've just thought of: find three stars that are supposed to be aligned (using eg. stellarium), draw the line between the outside two on any frame: the position of the middle one with respect to the line gives you the local distortion.

Re: 1190: "Time"

Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 9:58 am UTC
by azule
I didn't quite make it to the present. But that's okay. I'm off to get a real Present. Be back with a bundle of Present.

Re: 1190: "Time"

Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 10:03 am UTC
by BlitzGirl
Wake up, MegONG:

Image

And just as she does, I'm off to coma. See y'all in a fewpix!

Re: 1190: "Time"

Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 10:10 am UTC
by Angelastic
BigDaddy wrote:Per decree: favorite song about a star is Why Does the Sun Shine? by They Might Be Giants. Was gonna filk if I ever got time. Between work and baby not much left. Should coma.

You mean 'Why Does The Sun Shine?' by Tom Glazer and Dottie Evans (from the album 'Space Songs'), as covered by They Might Be Giants? Hmm, I can't find the page which has all their albums ripped from vinyl; I guess it was a violation of copyright after all. They can be found around the place though.

Hmm, actually, the next song on that album, 'What Is A Shooting Star?' might be more appropriate for this thread.

Oh, alright.

What Is A Shooting Star by Tom Glazer and Dottie Evans:
Cueball:
A shooting star, how does it work? I don't know much at all
I wonder if it hits the sea and makes the water fall.
A shooting star, how does it work? How does it shine so bright?
It might be just the sun that's lost and wand'ring through the night.

A wand'ring sun or water fall, it's still too swiftly-paced,
The minute it is gone it seems like such a beautiful waste

(Repeat as a round with Megan)

Re: 1190: "Time"

Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 10:16 am UTC
by Montov
So, we're in the middle of the night then? It means a couple of decapix until morning.
And Megan sounds sleepy. I can relate to that. No 7 or 4 this time, possibly a 6. Maybe she needs to do a number 29.

Re: 1190: "Time"

Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 10:35 am UTC
by mscha
Image

⁷, only ~1 NP to ketchup, things have actually slowed down ... a little.

Nice ottification, @BytEfLUSh! Not ‘untalented’ at all!
@BlitzGirl, Molpy, Molpy is ⁴!
@Angelastic, your version of What Is A Shooting Star is lovely!

@ChronosDragon, Draco is near the celestial north pole, so off to the right. Won't be seen, unless the camera turns.

@Kazza3: great summary¹ of all the evidence.
A few comments:
Although the determined latitude is pretty certain, the longitude might not be, because of uncertainty with leap seconds. (The rotation of the earth slows down, very slowly, but in a somewhat unpredictable way. Over the course of 11,000 years, that might add up to enough uncertainty that the predicted rotation of the earth might be off by hours, and we could be in Europe or Asia.)
You also may want to consider Cassini Madagascar (or simply Africa) as a possibility, which brings some of the evidence closer together.

@ucim: great post about Schizoblitzing. Your posts are always a pleasure to read, they're so well thought out and formulated!

@BlitzGirl, another lovely night molpy!

As per BlitzGirl's papal decree request, here's what Cuegan probably thinks about the stars:
Cuegan wrote:Neat!
(We might actually get a chance to find out soon! I know we're supposed to you-know-what, but I'm glad we're getting some activity again.
And have some Starry Cake, w'all!
Spoiler:
Image
Finally, an animation update:
Spoiler:
Image

ETA: no molpy activity. Even on the right hand side of the frame, thing appear to have quieted down.

Re: 1190: "Time"

Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 10:49 am UTC
by mscha
Montov wrote:So, we're in the middle of the night then? It means a couple of decapix until morning.

We're 74 frames (excluding meteor) after sunset. Assuming 5 minutes per frame, that's just over 6 hours.
Since it's supposedly early autumn, the night will be longer than 12 hours, so we're probably slightly under halfway.

(Could some astronomery type perhaps shine some (star)light on this, based on the total movement of the stars since sunset?)

Re: 1190: "Time"

Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 11:01 am UTC
by mscha
Megan takONG over.
Image

Re: 1190: "Time"

Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 11:01 am UTC
by MattTheTubaGuy
Night will be about 12 hours 40 minutes long, so at 5 minutes per frame, the night should be 152 frames long. If we are currently 75 frames in, then there should be 77 frames left. almost exactly half way!
day length calculator,I selected a location between 39 and 40 degrees north, and set the date to 9th October, which is the precession adjusted date I calculated a few posts back.