1190: "Time"

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby b2bomberkrh » Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:02 pm UTC

OH!!! Rosetta is surprised that they want to know about the sea, and that's why they've travelled!!

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Gedeon » Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:05 pm UTC

b2bomberkrh wrote:
Personally, I think it's obvious which question they will ask first, it's the one they asked the other Beanies as soon as they could. It's the one they set out to find the answer to. "Why is the sea rising?"


Neat4 prediction! :D

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Valarya » Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:06 pm UTC

b2bomberkrh wrote:OH!!! Rosetta is surprised that they want to know about the sea, and that's why they've travelled!!

It does look like she sat or leaned back at the very end there, as if in surprise. But her last text looks like Beanish again. Perhaps she was so shocked she slipped into her native tongue on accident. Huh!
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby jovialbard » Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:07 pm UTC

That second Oh almost looks like it starts with a beanish 3... could they be related? Not sure how, since 3 should be a consonant... unless it's a glottal stop which sometimes finds its way in front of a word beginning with a vowel, particularly when said with emphasis...

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Last edited by jovialbard on Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:08 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby odaiwai » Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:07 pm UTC

Montov wrote:In French the number 80 is spelled "quatre-vingts", meaning 4-20. Possibly Beanong has the same structure of multiplication of numbers.

And 40 people of the Cuegan tribe. Does that include the hill-people?


It's worth noting that British English and the American English of Lincoln's time also had the same grouping of numbers:"four score and seven years ago..."

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby mscha » Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:09 pm UTC

jjjdavidson wrote:
mscha wrote:⁷some graphs, jjjdavidson!
mschaDT is 6 hours ahead of RDT, by the way. (The first few daysoutside of Time were mschaST, 5 hours ahead, but I'd just ignore that.) England (and the rest of Britain) is 5 hours ahead of RDT, which makes yappo even more daylight averse that you thought. Image

Thanks! Glad you liked them. I'd forgotten you'd specifically said that the Netherlands used some form of DST; I tend to think of that as a uniquely American sort of foolishness. As far north as England and the Netherlands are, I can't imagine there's much benefit to a DST shift in full summer; your days are already, what, eighteen hours long?

Not quite: 16h48m around June 21st. But still, I like DST, or summer time as we call it – on June 21st, sunrise was at 5:18 and sunset at 22:06; and I'd much rather have an hour of daylight between 21:06 and 22:06 than between 4:18 and 5:18.
(And, of course, days are only that long in midsummer. Right now, it's still 16h11m, but in late September it'll go under 12h. (It'll be under 10 hours by the time summer time ends, late October. (We used to switch on the last Sunday in September, which makes much more sense, IMO – that was also pretty much symmetrical with the start of summer time, which is still the last Sunday in March.)))
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Angelastic » Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:10 pm UTC

Someguy945 wrote:I'm guessing it's already been pointed out that every time Rosetta asks a question, the final letter has a little circle above it.

I guess this shows that when she asks a question, she consistently uses the same inflection, but it is not the same as the inflection Cuegan are used to hearing.

Yes, it has been established that the little circle is a Beanish question mark. It might mean a difference in inflection, but there's also the possibility that it is actually pronounced as a syllable, like the Japanese か (ka) to signify a question. She could be using that without thinking even when speaking Unglish, in the same way that language learners often use fillers from their native languages. [ETA: I find it interesting that we've yet to identify any fillers in Beanish, even though Cuegan use them a lot in English when talking to Beanies] Or maybe we're just seeing it that way because that's how she'd write it (people often forget or don't notice subtle differences in punctuation between languages.) It doesn't really make a difference for understanding the comic, but it's interesting to think about.
Last edited by Angelastic on Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:12 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby a_s_h_e_n » Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:11 pm UTC

b2bomberkrh wrote:OH!!! Rosetta is surprised that they want to know about the sea, and that's why they've travelled!!


I kind of feel like she's saying "OH, we have heard of this before / we know why it's happening." Or she could be saying "OH, what a relief I thought you had other (worse) intentions."

Other possibility: The hill people have given the Beanies and Rosetta and whoever else they're with trouble in the past, and she's happy to hear that they have been reduced in numbers and are not trying to bring up the past
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Montov » Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:11 pm UTC

Valarya wrote:
b2bomberkrh wrote:OH!!! Rosetta is surprised that they want to know about the sea, and that's why they've travelled!!

It does look like she sat or leaned back at the very end there, as if in surprise. But her last text looks like Beanish again. Perhaps she was so shocked she slipped into her native tongue on accident. Huh!


So the "3M" could mean Oh. Was that sequence of characters already used?

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby cellocgw » Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:14 pm UTC

Gedeon wrote:
b2bomberkrh wrote:
Personally, I think it's obvious which question they will ask first, it's the one they asked the other Beanies as soon as they could. It's the one they set out to find the answer to. "Why is the sea rising?"


Neat4 prediction! :D


I've just realized: The sea (big) is rising because of tides. Their planet, like ours, has a moon. Unlike ours, there are a dozen or so moons. Once every 11,000 years, give or take, all the moons align in such a way as to cause an extremely high tide which gets tide-locked until the moons no longer align.

Yeah, I know that violates a few laws of physics, but so what :D
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby mscha » Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:15 pm UTC

edfel wrote:[and... map update! :) ]

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby a_s_h_e_n » Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:17 pm UTC

Montov wrote:
Valarya wrote:
b2bomberkrh wrote:OH!!! Rosetta is surprised that they want to know about the sea, and that's why they've travelled!!

It does look like she sat or leaned back at the very end there, as if in surprise. But her last text looks like Beanish again. Perhaps she was so shocked she slipped into her native tongue on accident. Huh!


So the "3M" could mean Oh. Was that sequence of characters already used?


edit: It looks more like 3,4 to me, but the 4 isn't the Beanish character 4 and I'm afraid I don't have the alphabet handy to look it up so just a second.
edit the second: a smudged Beanish 7, so 3,7
Last edited by a_s_h_e_n on Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:24 pm UTC, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Arky » Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:20 pm UTC

What a newpix to go coma on, but there's no help for it.

I hope Rosetta's answer isn't "Well, we opened a portal from Mars to bring back all the water our ancestors dumped there for some reason".
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby a_s_h_e_n » Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:22 pm UTC

Arky wrote:What a newpix to go coma on, but there's no help for it.

I hope Rosetta's answer isn't "Well, we opened a portal from Mars to bring back all the water our ancestors dumped there for some reason".


And the Beanies moved into the fortress after the Netherlands' Empire collapsed!
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Platonix » Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:24 pm UTC

Arky wrote:What a newpix to go coma on, but there's no help for it.

I hope Rosetta's answer isn't "Well, we opened a portal from Mars to bring back all the water our ancestors dumped there for some reason".

:lol: Quick, check for similarities between Beanish and Dutch!
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby CasCat » Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:24 pm UTC

Gedeon wrote:Hmm, this one is hard to decipher.

[When?] is forty?

(Clarify forty? makes more sense)

My numbers are no [sa?].

Yes! Good.


Blind-posting while ketchupping, so probably ninja'd... but it looks to me like Megan is holding up her hands, as if she's indicated with her fingers how many "forty" is. Flashing her hands at the translater four times, for instance. (Hey! Megan has FINGERS!)
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby charlie_grumbles » Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:25 pm UTC

A few comments:

On Language:
One reason why the Librarian (that's my story and I'm stickin' with it) said "carry" (carry them with you) is that languages don't normally have exact analogs of words in other languages. The farther apart the cultures are, the more true this is. Otherwise Google Translate would be trivial and we'd have had it 20 years ago. So "carry" may be the closest word she knows to the concept she has in mind. Her internal thesaurus isn't perfect.

On Story Telling:
In my view, good science fiction just tells a story as the characters live it. If jonny says "bring the conoculator" you may not learn what that is for a long time. The characters in life as in a good story don't normally talk about what is obvious to them. So as an observer you need to peel back the layers yourself. It is one reason I like Gene Wolfe. No one explains WHY the sun is "long". It is why Dune started out well (What the hell are the Bene Gesserit?) but ended badly - when others took it over.

And if the "narrator" explains to me what the conoculator is, I'll probably abandon the book.

On Numbers:
I think the deal with forty is something like "my numbers are not the same".
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby a_s_h_e_n » Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:26 pm UTC

CasCat wrote:
Gedeon wrote:Hmm, this one is hard to decipher.

[When?] is forty?

(Clarify forty? makes more sense)

My numbers are no [sa?].

Yes! Good.


Blind-posting while ketchupping, so probably ninja'd... but it looks to me like Megan is holding up her hands, as if she's indicated with her fingers how many "forty" is. Flashing her hands at the translater four times, for instance. (Hey! Megan has FINGERS!)


That or she flashed each had 20 times
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby ZBerg » Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:29 pm UTC

Latent22 wrote:OK OTVO voting time!
Pick your favorite Cueball and Meagan Voice.


I'll put my lurker vote in:
C6 and M1

Cueball always struck me as a melancholy phlegmatic, making his voice very studied, but not altogether lazy or over-precise.
Megean seems much more choleric and sanguine, getting very straight forward and quicker, though not flighty.

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Exodies » Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:29 pm UTC

Rule110 wrote:Of course, getting "yes" and "no" straight is a bit more important. (But if we could see the Beanie's facial expression as he answered Cueball, there would be little or no ambiguity about that.)

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Echousb » Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:31 pm UTC

I guess 3M in beanish is pronounced "Oh" !

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby taixzo » Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:31 pm UTC

Platonix wrote:
Arky wrote:What a newpix to go coma on, but there's no help for it.

I hope Rosetta's answer isn't "Well, we opened a portal from Mars to bring back all the water our ancestors dumped there for some reason".

:lol: Quick, check for similarities between Beanish and Dutch!


taixzo wrote:Ooh! Something I just remembered: A few years back, I was learning Spanish. (I've since forgotten almost all of it.) Then, later, I met someone who spoke Portuguese. And I couldn't understand all of what they were saying, but a lot of the words were similar to Spanish ones I knew, so I could get a sense of their meaning. And I get a similar feeling whenever I try to read Dutch (which I don't know, but I do know English and some German). If I had to illustrate what that looked like, it would be somewhat like GLR's drawing.

...Perhaps she's actually speaking Dutch? Has mscha appeared in the OTC?


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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby wertle » Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:32 pm UTC

Add my name to the de lurkers showing up, never even had an account until now, this is just too glorious, and you all are awesome!

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby SinusPi » Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:33 pm UTC

AnotherKevin wrote:Is there someone maintaining the Beanish Concordance, with the various utterances extracted? It's a bit time-consuming to have to go flipping through frames to find them.

Don't tempt me... :D

AnotherKevin wrote:A few suspicions: ...

I find these quite along my own findings - great to see someone come up with the same!

AnotherKevin wrote:If we make these assumptions, can we interpolate anything else?

I'm afraid not at this stage. We have too much source material and not enough circumstance/context. We might backtrack later, when more use cases are revealed... for now I think we have to
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby mscha » Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:34 pm UTC

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Valarya » Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:42 pm UTC

Montov wrote:
Valarya wrote:
b2bomberkrh wrote:OH!!! Rosetta is surprised that they want to know about the sea, and that's why they've travelled!!

It does look like she sat or leaned back at the very end there, as if in surprise. But her last text looks like Beanish again. Perhaps she was so shocked she slipped into her native tongue on accident. Huh!


So the "3M" could mean Oh. Was that sequence of characters already used?

Yeah looks like this is our very first direct-translation and assistance with Beanish-to-English. Now all you language people... get to it. Enhances, charts, other amazing stuff you do. :P
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby edfel » Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:43 pm UTC

Latent22 wrote:OK OTVO voting time!
Pick your favorite Cueball and Meagan Voice.
Results will be displayed here


C5, M2 :)

mscha wrote:<snip>
⁴!
That you're doing a ⁷ job on the map is confirmed by the OTC, we haven't learned anything yet that requires you to change your map.

Thanks :D But I think scale will need adjustment. We now know that the travel with the beanies took 1 day, more or less like the distance from the shed to the first tower, so the four-day trip along the sea might actually be more or less on the right scale. But it'd be great to know precisely how long the journey has taken. (I'll need to check the discussion about "where on earth can we go uphill only for a couple of days?")
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby tavella » Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:49 pm UTC

Speaking of the moon... I know that everyone has mostly settled on that one date in 13000, and Venus and Jupiter do match, but according to Stellarium there would also be a full moon, which would not appear in the field of view, but should have showed up in the environment not being so pitch dark. Has anyone worked out alternate dates that match without the moon being up or at least bright?

(Yes, I know the moon could have been ripped away somehow, but that's a pretty damn extreme change and most methods of doing so would have likely wiped out most life on earth, and yet we have birds and bunnies and snakes along with humans.)

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Eliram » Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:51 pm UTC

cellocgw wrote:
Gedeon wrote:
b2bomberkrh wrote:
Personally, I think it's obvious which question they will ask first, it's the one they asked the other Beanies as soon as they could. It's the one they set out to find the answer to. "Why is the sea rising?"


Neat4 prediction! :D


I've just realized: The sea (big) is rising because of tides. Their planet, like ours, has a moon. Unlike ours, there are a dozen or so moons. Once every 11,000 years, give or take, all the moons align in such a way as to cause an extremely high tide which gets tide-locked until the moons no longer align.

Yeah, I know that violates a few laws of physics, but so what :D

True, and with all moons aligned it's even slightly possible that we saw none of them during the night.

Okay, but we did see a meteor. That could actually be significant.
Suppose their world does NOT have a moon, or maybe it's earth, but the moon was long taken as an inter-stellar travelling platform by the advanced humans, and only few were left behind on the earth without a moon.
Anyway: no moon & no real tide for centuries.
But now, a large object is getting close to their planet, meteors appear, and the sea begins to rise...
Maybe the beanie telescopes will be aimed upwards soon.
It's about time.

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby mikevonwang » Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:52 pm UTC

something just caught my eye and I had to delurk.

in frame 2804, the middle Beanie talks to the leftmost Beanie and starts off with a single word, "AM2"
in frame 2845, the long-haired Beanie that the group passes greets the leftmost Beanie with "AM2" again, and then continues with the now-familiar "hello"

could "AM2" be that Beanie's name?

EDIT: so apparenty my computer didn't crash the first time I posted.
Last edited by mikevonwang on Thu Jul 18, 2013 8:54 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby taixzo » Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:52 pm UTC

edfel wrote:
Latent22 wrote:OK OTVO voting time!
Pick your favorite Cueball and Meagan Voice.
Results will be displayed here


C5, M2 :)

mscha wrote:<snip>
⁴!
That you're doing a ⁷ job on the map is confirmed by the OTC, we haven't learned anything yet that requires you to change your map.

Thanks :D But I think scale will need adjustment. We now know that the travel with the beanies took 1 day, more or less like the distance from the shed to the first tower, so the four-day trip along the sea might actually be more or less on the right scale. But it'd be great to know precisely how long the journey has taken. (I'll need to check the discussion about "where on earth can we go uphill only for a couple of days?")


Again, Mauna Kea in Hawaii would answer to that. From the sea (well, ocean actually) to the top is about 75 miles and the top is nearly 14,000 feet above sea level. That is definitely several days' journey. (Although if it is Mauna Kea, they aren't at the top yet, because the air is too thin for plants up there.)
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Mikeski » Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:53 pm UTC

On number systems:

We use different bases and counting systems in our world, right now. Western languages break large numbers into 1000s (in English: ten, hundred, thousand; ten-thousand, hundred-thousand, million; ...), while Eastern languages often use 10000s (in Japanese: juu, hyaku, sen, man; juu-man, hyaku-man ...).

Even in English, we've got the vestiges of base-twelve hanging around: "dozens", hours-minutes-seconds and degrees-minutes-seconds... and even the numbers "eleven" and "twelve" rather than using some version of "one-teen" and "two-teen". And that affects how we think of everything... you're "a child" until you turn 13, then "a teenager" until 20, then "in your 20s" or "in your 30s" (etc.) for the rest of your life. Why are the first two not groups of 10 years like all the rest? Just because of how we think about numbers.

On other language differences:

Even very simple concepts may be missing in one language. In English, there are pairs of location words (this/that, here/there) that imply "near the speaker" and "not near the speaker". Japanese has sets of three words (kono/sono/ano, kore/sore/are) that imply "near the speaker", "near the listener", and "not near either of them". So there's no perfect mapping back and forth, and your translation may lose something unless both you and your listeners/readers understand those conceptual differences between the languages.

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby neopifex » Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:54 pm UTC

Valarya wrote:
Montov wrote:
Valarya wrote:
b2bomberkrh wrote:OH!!! Rosetta is surprised that they want to know about the sea, and that's why they've travelled!!

It does look like she sat or leaned back at the very end there, as if in surprise. But her last text looks like Beanish again. Perhaps she was so shocked she slipped into her native tongue on accident. Huh!


So the "3M" could mean Oh. Was that sequence of characters already used?

Yeah looks like this is our very first direct-translation and assistance with Beanish-to-English. Now all you language people... get to it. Enhances, charts, other amazing stuff you do. :P


The "3M" characters don't really look like Beanish characters we've seen so far. This 3 is very different from the Beanish 3, for instance, and nothing looks like the M.
[I still can't post images, but imagine the Beanish character map here]

I think the smudging of the second OH is an indication of a change in tone from Rosetta, implying she knows something about the sea changing.
C'mon, let's see what's through here!

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby SinusPi » Thu Jul 18, 2013 5:00 pm UTC

Still conversONG!
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby taixzo » Thu Jul 18, 2013 5:01 pm UTC

SinusPi wrote:Still conversONG!
Spoiler:
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Cueball wrote:Did you get that?

Megan wrote:...No.


Did we?
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Knight Temporal
Bringer of the Light

Useless utilities: Newpix clock for Mac OS, Newpix clock for Ubuntu

Sandgarden - a relaxing experience for Time Waiters

Best wishes to GnomeAnne, Vytron, ColletArrow and january1may! One day you will all join me in the Present!

SinusPi
Posts: 128
Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:16 pm UTC

Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby SinusPi » Thu Jul 18, 2013 5:02 pm UTC

"You do not know.
I &$&*%#^*%^&SSE."
...
Last edited by SinusPi on Thu Jul 18, 2013 5:03 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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b2bomberkrh
Posts: 162
Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2013 4:50 am UTC

Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby b2bomberkrh » Thu Jul 18, 2013 5:02 pm UTC

You do not know.

I must (?) something like explain?

a_s_h_e_n
Posts: 72
Joined: Thu Jul 18, 2013 3:04 am UTC

Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby a_s_h_e_n » Thu Jul 18, 2013 5:02 pm UTC

It's okay Cueball, I didn't get it either
Tock: Look, son, it's bad enough wasting time without killing it.

SinusPi
Posts: 128
Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:16 pm UTC

Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby SinusPi » Thu Jul 18, 2013 5:05 pm UTC

Vertical word on second line. ELIMINATE? O_o

devrelm
Posts: 11
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 5:17 pm UTC

Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby devrelm » Thu Jul 18, 2013 5:05 pm UTC

"YOU DO NOT KNOW.

I N[...] [...]SE."

It looks like there's a vertical "[...]EL[...]NA[...]" behind the last word of the second line.


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