1263: "Reassuring"

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Re: 1263: "Reassuring"

Postby ucim » Thu Sep 12, 2013 2:19 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:You don't need real experiences, though. You just need memories. Which for humans involve the physical state of the brain (unless you're a dualist), and thus which could in principal just be put there all at once instead of requiring some particular sequence of experiences to happen.
True on the surface, but anything that is "put there" arguably counts as being "programmed in". If we are talking about a computer actually being creative on its own, the computer needs to have its own experiences.

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Re: 1263: "Reassuring"

Postby orthogon » Thu Sep 12, 2013 2:35 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:You don't need real experiences, though. You just need memories. Which for humans involve the physical state of the brain (unless you're a dualist), and thus which could in principal just be put there all at once instead of requiring some particular sequence of experiences to happen.

Exactly. It's only a human limitation that we learn best from experience, and particularly from our mistakes. Our difficulty in learning from others' mistakes or from books is a one of the weaknesses of our "design". It seems that reprogramming our neural pathways is a costly process that is not always undertaken simply because somebody tells us to. By contrast a computer's memory, including its program memory, is infinitely malleable. On the other hand, a high resistance to reprogramming probably has a survival benefit: a firmware upgrade on man-made hardware brings the risk of "bricking", i.e. leaving the object in a non-working state from which it can't be recovered. In the human case, you're making untested tweaks to the firmware on a live system with no backup strategy.

ETA: Some bricked wetware can be recovered by extensive use of drugs and psychotherapy, however.
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

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Re: 1263: "Reassuring"

Postby Air Hadoken » Thu Sep 12, 2013 3:58 pm UTC

orthogon wrote:
BlitzGirl wrote:That is brilliant, Air Hadoken! :D Mostly gibberish, but there are gems in there!
Some of my favorites so far:

Computers will never mutate a planet as well as humans.
Computers will never gift-wrap a coupling as well as humans.
Computers will never distrust a superman as well as humans.
Computers will never quarrel an enigma as well as humans.
Computers will never experience a hymen as well as humans.
Computers will never discredit an angel as well as humans.
Computers will never misidentify a camel as well as humans.

"distrust a superman" and "experience a hymen" get better the more you think about them.

A lot of the gibberish is because there are nouns in the verb slot - can you (Air Hadoken) twerk it somehow? It apparently knows about parts of speech, and I realise that verbing nouns is all the rage; but coffin, servant, fellowship, maker...?


Thanks to both of you! The random choice of words is backed by the WordNik API, which is identifying the verbed nouns you cited as transitive verbs. I don't think I can filter these ones out without eliminating all verbs that are also nouns. Still might need some curating, though -- I woke up this morning to discover that a concerned citizen had pointed me to a tweet my bot made that was either incredibly racist or thoroughly gangsta, depending on the context you ascribe to it. That's a large part of what's interesting about computers generating language; they have no sense of context, nor even connotation in a random spew like this.

I guess this means computers will never understand context as well as humans.

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Re: 1263: "Reassuring"

Postby orthogon » Thu Sep 12, 2013 4:21 pm UTC

Air Hadoken wrote:
orthogon wrote:A lot of the gibberish is because there are nouns in the verb slot - can you (Air Hadoken) twerk it somehow? It apparently knows about parts of speech, and I realise that verbing nouns is all the rage; but coffin, servant, fellowship, maker...?


Thanks to both of you! The random choice of words is backed by the WordNik API, which is identifying the verbed nouns you cited as transitive verbs. I don't think I can filter these ones out without eliminating all verbs that are also nouns. Still might need some curating, though -- I woke up this morning to discover that a concerned citizen had pointed me to a tweet my bot made that was either incredibly racist or thoroughly gangsta, depending on the context you ascribe to it. That's a large part of what's interesting about computers generating language; they have no sense of context, nor even connotation in a random spew like this.

I guess this means computers will never understand context as well as humans.


Yes, to my surprise these two have entries as transitive verbs in dictionary.com:
coffin (vt): to put or enclose in or as in a coffin.
fellowship (vt): to admit to fellowship, especially religious fellowship.
No doubt I'd find the others if I looked a bit harder.

Sorry to hear that your creation has embarrassed you in public; this kind of weighs in against Soteria's claim since you clearly didn't program it to make racist comments, that was just an emergent behaviour. Take consolation from knowing that you're not the first person this has happened to: the guy who made the "Keep calm" T-shirts I mentioned earlier looked like his business would collapse as a result (I have less sympathy for him, though).
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

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Re: 1263: "Reassuring"

Postby Air Hadoken » Thu Sep 12, 2013 4:56 pm UTC

I'm not really embarrassed by it, but I'd like to avoid having hate and vitriol aimed at me for something that random chance and a word list is doing. The original author of @metaphorminute figured this out early on and put a word blacklist in it, but he didn't commit those changes back to github; he did, however, put the same blacklist into later projects on github, so right now I'm merging that into my script along with some other enhancements. We'll see how it goes.

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Re: 1263: "Reassuring"

Postby orthogon » Thu Sep 12, 2013 5:15 pm UTC

Air Hadoken wrote:I'm not really embarrassed by it, but I'd like to avoid having hate and vitriol aimed at me for something that random chance and a word list is doing. The original author of @metaphorminute figured this out early on and put a word blacklist in it, but he didn't commit those changes back to github; he did, however, put the same blacklist into later projects on github, so right now I'm merging that into my script along with some other enhancements. We'll see how it goes.

I look forward to it! Maybe "embarrassed" was the wrong word; I was thinking of it as being analogous to the situation where somebody's young child recites an inappropriate joke they've heard (but don't understand) or uses a taboo word (that they don't know the meaning of) in front of guests or in public. I can think of occasions where I was that child. :oops:
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

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Re: 1263: "Reassuring"

Postby Klear » Thu Sep 12, 2013 6:01 pm UTC

Let me say that racist computers sound awesome. At least, as far as they are not sentient yet.

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Re: 1263: "Reassuring"

Postby silverkitty » Thu Sep 12, 2013 6:47 pm UTC

Unless you believe human intelligence derives from something supernatural, then we know for a fact that things which are not "smart" can be assembled and programmed in such a way as to make us think they are smart (and creative and emotional and spiritual and whatever else you believe humans are and computers are not). We know this by a simple existence proof: Human brains exist, QED. The only question is whether any other way of assembling and programming unintelligent matter will convince us that the result is smart.

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Re: 1263: "Reassuring"

Postby jovialbard » Thu Sep 12, 2013 6:55 pm UTC

Creativity is a bad heuristic applied to achieve good results.
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Re: 1263: "Reassuring"

Postby Sprocket » Thu Sep 12, 2013 7:21 pm UTC

wtf is a salad comp?
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Re: 1263: "Reassuring"

Postby Coyoty » Thu Sep 12, 2013 7:23 pm UTC

Maybe artificial intelligence has such a hard time catching up to human intelligence because human intelligence keeps advancing ahead of it.

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Re: 1263: "Reassuring"

Postby Whizbang » Thu Sep 12, 2013 7:31 pm UTC

Coyoty wrote:Maybe artificial intelligence has such a hard time catching up to human intelligence because human intelligence keeps advancing ahead of it.


I don't believe we are any more intelligent than we were in the stone age, but we do have better tools and education. Of course, I base this statement on nothing at all but some high school biology and various Internet meanderings over the years.

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Re: 1263: "Reassuring"

Postby jovialbard » Thu Sep 12, 2013 8:37 pm UTC

Whizbang wrote:
Coyoty wrote:Maybe artificial intelligence has such a hard time catching up to human intelligence because human intelligence keeps advancing ahead of it.


I don't believe we are any more intelligent than we were in the stone age, but we do have better tools and education. Of course, I base this statement on nothing at all but some high school biology and various Internet meanderings over the years.


Intelligence is more than just the genetics of neurology. It's also about the application of that neurology to heuristics. Our heuristics have improved over the millennia.

The real problem for computers as that they are qualitatively different than a human brain. A computer's primary functions are to compute and store. The brain's primary function is to assimilate and trigger. The types of things the latter is good at are different than the types of things that the prior is good at. The last couple decades in AI are going in the right direction, simulating the assimilation abilities of human intelligence, but they still bump up against the fundamentally linear constraint of the computers computation paradigm. That is, the computer architecturally computes. When you design a computer that architecturally assimilates, then you're headed down the right path for human type intelligence. Of course the current best way to do that is have sex :)

Oh, I just made that all up, please disregard as appropriate. Except the having sex part, having sex is, in fact, a great way to make an entity with human intelligence, I do have empirical evidence that this is true.
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Re: 1263: "Reassuring"

Postby ucim » Thu Sep 12, 2013 10:01 pm UTC

jovialbard wrote:It's also about the application of that neurology to heuristics.
No, it's about the ability to apply that neurology to heuristics. When we learn stuff, and learn how to do stuff, we get smarter (in one sense), but intelligence (in another sense) is about the ability to become smarter (in the first sense).

Biological hardware changes with time. Computer hardware does not, though the software can. In biology the hardware and the software are intermeshed, whereas with (most) computers they are separate layers. But this is not a fundamental difference of the type that would preclude artificial intelligence; it is one which suggests the methods which could succeed in achieving it.

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Re: 1263: "Reassuring"

Postby javahead » Thu Sep 12, 2013 10:05 pm UTC

mathmannix wrote:EDIT: Alas, regarding games, I suppose it will eventually become fun only to play games against computers with no strategy involved. Like SnakesCHUTES and ladders, or high card. Oh, and how are computers at Monopoly?

The Hasbro Monopoly on my xbxo360 keeps my kids on the edge of their seats, but the logic hasn't proven to be hard to figure out:

A: MUST have monopolies
B: Strongly desire RR and Utlilties
C: Substantial % of liqudity

So, based on these traits, its not hard to talk a computer player out of Reds and Yellows for monopolies in the dk purples, or for cash and RR (colors may be represented by non-standard properties in other 'flavors' on the game: cardboard, candy, Future, etc.

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Re: 1263: "Reassuring"

Postby Mikeski » Thu Sep 12, 2013 11:07 pm UTC

Whizbang wrote:I don't believe we are any more intelligent than we were in the stone age[...]

Unlikely.

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Re: 1263: "Reassuring"

Postby Eternal Density » Fri Sep 13, 2013 7:15 am UTC

Klear wrote:Let me say that racist computers sound awesome. At least, as far as they are not sentient yet.

Yeah, cos if they were, you'd have Cylons to deal with.
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Re: 1263: "Reassuring"

Postby electricmayhem » Fri Sep 13, 2013 7:39 pm UTC

Did anyone else find the title text a bit Douglas Adams-ish?

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Re: 1263: "Reassuring"

Postby Manabu » Fri Sep 13, 2013 9:51 pm UTC

I still remember the time when I used to won against the strongest Go bots in existence... I will likely never do this again... :cry:

Air Hadoken wrote:I'm not really embarrassed by it, but I'd like to avoid having hate and vitriol aimed at me for something that random chance and a word list is doing. The original author of @metaphorminute figured this out early on and put a word blacklist in it, but he didn't commit those changes back to github; he did, however, put the same blacklist into later projects on github, so right now I'm merging that into my script along with some other enhancements. We'll see how it goes.

It seems to be working well. It is still spitting amusing phrases that attest to the superiority of the Human race, but at the same time a human would never think about:
"Computers will never cosponsor an infanticide as well as humans"
"Computers will never commemorate a felony as well as humans"

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Re: 1263: "Reassuring"

Postby Soteria » Fri Sep 13, 2013 10:03 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:Yes, well, you also don't have to look very hard on the internet to find timecube.com. That doesn't mean we should give it serious consideration here, nor does it contradict the fact that nobody who actually has anything whatsoever to do with this current discussion thread expects otherwise.

Oh, and we already have computers that do specific tasks they weren't programmed to do, because their programming is at a higher level which allows the computer to essentially figure out for itself what to do in a particular situation.


Oh, well, in that case, I apologize for making an observation about people. I mean, these threads are usually so serious and on-topic.

Seriously, dude?

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Re: 1263: "Reassuring"

Postby gmalivuk » Fri Sep 13, 2013 10:10 pm UTC

Was my flippant reply to your irrelevant observation about people who aren't in this discussion too condescending? I'm sorry. I hadn't realized this thread was supposed to be so serious and on-topic.
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Re: 1263: "Reassuring"

Postby Horselover Frost » Sat Sep 14, 2013 2:05 am UTC

Whizbang wrote:I don't believe we are any more intelligent than we were in the stone age, but we do have better tools and education. Of course, I base this statement on nothing at all but some high school biology and various Internet meanderings over the years.


I have a hard time believing that humans with the same intelligence as humans today went several millennia without noticing the water went up when you stepped into a bathtub.

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Re: 1263: "Reassuring"

Postby Pfhorrest » Sat Sep 14, 2013 2:44 am UTC

Horselover Frost wrote:I have a hard time believing that humans with the same intelligence as humans today went several millennia without noticing the water went up when you stepped into a bathtub.

The fact that the water went up wasn't Archimedes' "eureka" moment. The fact that the volume swept out by the surface moving up was exactly the same as the volume of the thing put into the water was; more practically, that if the tub was completely full, the volume of water that spilled out as you stepped in would be exactly equal to the volume of the part of you that was submerged, even when it was poured into another vessel. And most practically, that that meant that you could measure the volume of an irregularly-shaped object by putting it into a full tub of water and collecting the overflow into a regularly-shaped vessel where it was easy to measure the volume of water and, by proxy, the irregular (and thus hard to measure) thing. And then divide the weight of the thing by its volume to get its density. And then beyond that, realizing that the reason dense things sink and less dense things float is due to the comparative weight of the water they displace vs their own weight.

It's easy to see that water goes up when you get in the tub. It takes some thought to see the connection between that simple observation and how to make something made out of rock float.
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Re: 1263: "Reassuring"

Postby jmdoman » Sat Sep 14, 2013 4:52 am UTC

Getting upset because computers can beat humans at games makes as much sense as getting upset because cars can beat humans at foot races. Computers are nothing more than abacuses writ large. They will never be anything more than machines that we give instructions to.

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Re: 1263: "Reassuring"

Postby addams » Sat Sep 14, 2013 5:46 am UTC

Mikeski wrote:
Whizbang wrote:I don't believe we are any more intelligent than we were in the stone age[...]

Unlikely.

Thank you.
It is nice that has a handy name.

People get smarter when exposed to wonderful, stimulating environments. Yes.
People seem smarter and better able to solve a wide range of problems when they have languages to support that thinking. Yes.

There have been studies done.
I have seen that work in Real Life.
It is impressive. A person with English, Japanese and German or Russian was able to think circles around me.

I have listened while very bright people attempt to solve problems.
Multi-lingual people went from one language to another language until they hit on a language that could solve the problem.

Will computers ever be as smart as Humans?
Will Humans ever be as smart as Humans?

Together we are Brilliant.
As individuals we are a bunch of Idiots.

Those idiots that have have bright teachers are smarter
Than those idiots that don't need teachers.

Oh! If we get smarter over time, fine.
How fast does our IQ drop when we quit using our brains?

It looks like an entire people can get very stupid, very quickly.
We are the same animal we were when we stumbled out of Plato's Cave.

As individuals we are doomed. As a group we are like Gods.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
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Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
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Re: 1263: "Reassuring"

Postby Manabu » Sat Sep 14, 2013 5:52 pm UTC

Horselover Frost wrote:
Whizbang wrote:I don't believe we are any more intelligent than we were in the stone age, but we do have better tools and education. Of course, I base this statement on nothing at all but some high school biology and various Internet meanderings over the years.


I have a hard time believing that humans with the same intelligence as humans today went several millennia without noticing the water went up when you stepped into a bathtub.

It wasn't a genetic revolution that triggered the cientific revolution, but how we use our brains. A possible explanation of how we could have been so dumb for so long time: http://www.ted.com/talks/david_deutsch_ ... ation.html

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Re: 1263: "Reassuring"

Postby Klear » Sun Sep 15, 2013 12:39 am UTC

Manabu wrote:
Horselover Frost wrote:
Whizbang wrote:I don't believe we are any more intelligent than we were in the stone age, but we do have better tools and education. Of course, I base this statement on nothing at all but some high school biology and various Internet meanderings over the years.


I have a hard time believing that humans with the same intelligence as humans today went several millennia without noticing the water went up when you stepped into a bathtub.

It wasn't a genetic revolution that triggered the cientific revolution, but how we use our brains. A possible explanation of how we could have been so dumb for so long time: http://www.ted.com/talks/david_deutsch_ ... ation.html


I believe that still counts as greater intelligence.

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Re: 1263: "Reassuring"

Postby ucim » Sun Sep 15, 2013 2:12 am UTC

addams wrote:Oh! If we get smarter over time, fine.
How fast does our IQ drop when we quit using our brains?
Start using a GPS and you'll find out! :)

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Re: 1263: "Reassuring"

Postby addams » Sun Sep 15, 2013 4:30 am UTC

ucim wrote:
addams wrote:Oh! If we get smarter over time, fine.
How fast does our IQ drop when we quit using our brains?
Start using a GPS and you'll find out! :)

Jose

ech. Maybe.
What I think we learn is who we are.

Back a very long time ago when GPS was first available to the masses, I used it.
I did a lot of laughing.

It told me to turn Right. I turned Left.
I spoke to it, "Why didn't you tell me, 'Your other Right.' ?"

It told me to go places that did not have places.
I would tell it, "This car will not do that. We need a Tank."

Some people get angry at GPS. Some people cuss and fuss the whole way.
They do that without GPS. (shrug)

GPS is so good now that we don't need to be able to read maps and ask for directions?
That will put us at risk, if GPS ever fails us.

The amazing things we can do and know.
We are a fortunate people.

Not all of us are happy. And; For good reason. We have problems no other generation has ever faced.
We have more knowledge and wealth and luxuries than any other generation has had.

It seems we have problem solving skills no human population has ever had, too.
We need those problem solving skills. We must attempt to out think one another.

That is hard. We are smart.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: 1263: "Reassuring"

Postby ucim » Sun Sep 15, 2013 4:48 am UTC

addams wrote:It seems we have problem solving skills no human population has ever had, too.
We need those problem solving skills. We must attempt to out think one another.

That is hard. We are smart.
You think that's hard? Try to out-think a squirrel! :)

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Re: 1263: "Reassuring"

Postby Klear » Sun Sep 15, 2013 10:51 am UTC

Whenever I pick up a calculator, I stop being able to do do basic multiplication for some reason.

Or do I?

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Re: 1263: "Reassuring"

Postby 30>Length(Name)>3 » Sun Sep 15, 2013 4:54 pm UTC

A Google search on the topic "where have all the flying toasters gone?" comes up with a post on the blog titled "Religion + Technology". It's about screensavers for Macs, which brings us to a technology religion (Apple products). And once it's a religion, you'll never really get rid of it; utility is irrelevant.

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Re: 1263: "Reassuring"

Postby rmsgrey » Sun Sep 15, 2013 9:41 pm UTC

Klear wrote:Whenever I pick up a calculator, I stop being able to do do basic multiplication for some reason.

Or do I?


It's important not to underestimate The Feeling of Power the ability to do basic multiplication without prosthetics can evoke.

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Re: 1263: "Reassuring"

Postby Actaeus » Sun Sep 15, 2013 11:00 pm UTC

Air Hadoken, what have you done?!

Computers will never synthesize a leader as well as humans

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Re: 1263: "Reassuring"

Postby addams » Mon Sep 16, 2013 4:31 am UTC

Klear wrote:Whenever I pick up a calculator, I stop being able to do do basic multiplication for some reason.

Or do I?

Yes. I like it.
We do extend ourselves into our Machines.

When we drive or fly we are extending our minds.
Math? yes. Not one of us can do the Math.

When the Machines stand with us in awe, then we have arrived?
We may be there, now. It may be that we talk a lot.

The poor machines can't get a word in.
A well cared for machine is a happy machine.

No. It's not human. Neither is The Dog.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: 1263: "Reassuring"

Postby BlitzGirl » Mon Sep 16, 2013 7:26 am UTC

More gems from Reassuring Metaphors:

Computers will never sprout an appendage as well as humans.
Computers will never undervalue a genotype as well as humans.
Computers will never fantasize a protagonist as well as humans.
Computers will never batter a mistress as well as humans.
Computers will never regurgitate a lozenge as well as humans.
Computers will never guilt a genius as well as humans.
Computers will never belch an assertion as well as humans.
Knight Temporal of the One True Comic
BlitzGirl the Pink, Mopey Molpy Mome
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Whizbang
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Re: 1263: "Reassuring"

Postby Whizbang » Mon Sep 16, 2013 12:57 pm UTC

Next time I make an assertation, I'm going to belch it. In fact, I think more communication needs to be in the form of a belch.

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Re: 1263: "Reassuring"

Postby Kit. » Tue Sep 17, 2013 10:31 am UTC

ucim wrote:However, our own definition of what "intellegence" is is still too undeveloped and egocentric to be useful here.

I predict that while we are trying to make a computer "be" intelligent, we will as a matter of course be using more and more powerful computer networks. When we discover how computers have "become" intelligent, it will be a surprise from a completely unexpected direction.

Or we may even never discover it by the time we become extinct.

Generally, we don't develop computers to be or to act like us. We mostly develop computers to do the work that we cannot do or we don't enjoy doing. At some point, we may create an ecosystem that is so good at doing all the things we don't enjoy doing that it doesn't need us at all anymore.

We will not necessarily find this system "intelligent". It will not necessarily find us "intelligent" either.

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Re: 1263: "Reassuring"

Postby speising » Tue Sep 17, 2013 4:52 pm UTC

Yes. but a lot of people don't enjoy thinking.

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Re: 1263: "Reassuring"

Postby addams » Tue Sep 17, 2013 8:06 pm UTC

speising wrote:Yes. but a lot of people don't enjoy thinking.

Amen.

No Thinking.
Thinking is hard.
That is what computers do.

What do we do?
Think about thinking?
Then, think better of it?
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.


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