1330: "Kola Borehole"

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Re: 1330: "Kola Borehole"

Postby Kit. » Fri Feb 14, 2014 5:39 pm UTC

Quizatzhaderac wrote:Now, a certainty of releasing demonstrue is not needed to make opening up physical hell a bad idea, just the possibility. Furthermore, given that we're dealing with concrete entities, they may have a portfolio of direct actions to be judged by, strengthening the correlation between reputation and fact.

That actually might be interesting.

Errm... studying their portfolio might be interesting

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Re: 1330: "Kola Borehole"

Postby JeffR23 » Fri Feb 14, 2014 5:40 pm UTC

I think hatguy is seriously underestimating the risk of running out of Ocean before we run out of Hell...

(And the effect on surface temperature and pressure of exchanging signficant volumes of liquid ocean for hot, rising steam.)

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Re: 1330: "Kola Borehole"

Postby Kit. » Fri Feb 14, 2014 6:09 pm UTC

Pechenga Bay is only 118 meters deep, and the hole itself is hardly wider than one meter at its maximum width.
Last edited by Kit. on Fri Feb 14, 2014 8:54 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 1330: "Kola Borehole"

Postby Quizatzhaderac » Fri Feb 14, 2014 7:46 pm UTC

Kit. wrote:.. studying their portfolio might be interesting
Oh yes. Empirical study is definitely called for in this case. If nothing else we'll have a hyper-thermal sapient megafauna to study.
There's nothing wrong with demons. The idea is to destroy afterlife.
Megan mentions a war between heaven and hell, which suggests Randal was imagining a need for self-defense. Though I think that dwarf fortress is right in that anything that can survive in magma the bottom of the Kola Borehole/ Hell (and is versatile enough to come to the surface), isn't going to be troubled by a few km of water.
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Re: 1330: "Kola Borehole"

Postby Ken_g6 » Fri Feb 14, 2014 7:49 pm UTC

So that's what Iceland's up to. :twisted:

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Re: 1330: "Kola Borehole"

Postby ManaUser » Fri Feb 14, 2014 8:32 pm UTC

Perhaps instead of a channel, they decided it would be easier to drill a new hole straight from the ocean.

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Re: 1330: "Kola Borehole"

Postby commodorejohn » Fri Feb 14, 2014 8:44 pm UTC

Eutychus wrote:Randall needs to revise his theology. The Bible describes Hell as a place of punishment for the devil, not somewhere he rules over.

Blame Milton.
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Re: 1330: "Kola Borehole"

Postby Wybaar » Fri Feb 14, 2014 8:56 pm UTC

JustDoug wrote:Nah. Make use of the place. Water down, steam up, electricity out. It would make wonderful PR and allow you to charge a premium.

"Gehenna Generating Company: A Cool Glass of Water in Hell For Every Kilowatt You Use."

If there were a tunnel feeding water into the borehold, you could set up a water wheel at the top where the water feeds into the hole and a steam turbine down lower and get power from both the water going down and the steam coming back up.

In the Wikipedia article they mention that a few thousand feet deeper the temperature would be so high as to prevent the drill bit from functioning. I wonder if you could drop blocks of ice down it and have them travel fast enough to survive the 15000 foot drop including through the hot zone at the bottom, strike with enough force to fracture the rock, and only then turn into steam.

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Re: 1330: "Kola Borehole"

Postby speising » Fri Feb 14, 2014 9:05 pm UTC

it's 15000 meters. and why should ice fracture rock on impact? the hole isn't evacuated.

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Re: 1330: "Kola Borehole"

Postby Eebster the Great » Fri Feb 14, 2014 10:00 pm UTC

sonar1313 wrote:
Eebster the Great wrote:Why make something that is objectively demonic and deserving of eternal hellfire?

God never did. Lucifer was an angel at first. He and his minions became that way as punishment for rebelling against God.

On a side note, this is what I've always felt is the flaw in the theory of "God doesn't exist because if God is both all-benevolent and omnipotent he would wipe out evil." Nothing in the Bible ever claimed he was either. His plans are constantly getting screwed up.

I'm aware of that tradition, but Quizathaderac described demons as "creatures of flame and twisted flesh sealed in an abyss at the dawn of time". So that would imply that demons have always been there (I presume that's what "since the dawn of time" means) and moreover he said that an "objective observer" would demonize them for their nature. So these demons are inherently evil, literally made of flame, and have been punished since their creation.

Of course, if hell is eternal, and life is finite, then everybody tortured in hell is in essentially the same situation, save for a negligible and forgotten finite period on Earth.

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Re: 1330: "Kola Borehole"

Postby Tony » Fri Feb 14, 2014 10:01 pm UTC

Anyone who got a kick out of this xkcd and "Wake Up, Sheeple!" should read "A Colder War" by Charles Stross. You're welcome!

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Re: 1330: "Kola Borehole"

Postby Quizatzhaderac » Sat Feb 15, 2014 12:44 am UTC

@Eebester: I'm was still thinking of Dwarf Fortress where that's the case. The gods in DF aren't particularly kind or bright. It also makes a great game mechanic .
Spoiler:
THe most valuable resource by far composes the final barrier to hell. If you dig too deeply, too greedily, you risk being invaded by an intentionally unbalanced threat.
The thing about recursion problems is that they tend to contain other recursion problems.

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Re: 1330: "Kola Borehole"

Postby Mr Q » Sat Feb 15, 2014 6:18 am UTC

bachaddict wrote:Title text: "Tonight's top story: Lucifer, the Prince of Darkness, died in his home this morning at the age of [unintelligible rune]. Due to the large number of sharks inhabiting his former kingdom, no body could be recovered."


Hmmm. I didn't know Colin Barnett was Lucifer, but I suppose the signs were there.

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Re: 1330: "Kola Borehole"

Postby Wilhelm » Sat Feb 15, 2014 6:56 am UTC

Lucifer's [unintelligible rune] is probably written in Demon Arithmetic.

For those of you wanting to know what Demon Arithmetic is, behold the insanity that /tg/ produces in its off time:

1
2
3
4
5
6

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Re: 1330: "Kola Borehole"

Postby Kit. » Sat Feb 15, 2014 10:20 am UTC

Wilhelm wrote:Lucifer's [unintelligible rune] is probably written in Demon Arithmetic.

For those of you wanting to know what Demon Arithmetic is, behold the insanity that /tg/ produces in its off time:

1
2
3

You don't need 2, 3 and 5 as the basic symbols. 2 is #1, 3 is #2 and 5 is #3.

Or would it be Angel Arithmetic then?

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Re: 1330: "Kola Borehole"

Postby PM 2Ring » Sat Feb 15, 2014 10:21 am UTC

JeffR23 wrote:I think hatguy is seriously underestimating the risk of running out of Ocean before we run out of Hell...

(And the effect on surface temperature and pressure of exchanging signficant volumes of liquid ocean for hot, rising steam.)


Good point.

From http://ga.water.usgs.gov/edu/earthhowmuch.html

Image
USGS wrote:All Earth's water, liquid fresh water, and water in lakes and rivers

Spheres showing:
(1) All water (sphere over western U.S., 860 miles in diameter)
(2) Fresh liquid water in the ground, lakes, swamps, and rivers (sphere over Kentucky, 169.5 miles in diameter), and
(3) Fresh-water lakes and rivers (sphere over Georgia, 34.9 miles in diameter).
Credit: Howard Perlman, USGS; globe illustration by Jack Cook, Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution (©); Adam Nieman.

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Re: 1330: "Kola Borehole"

Postby Plasma Man » Sat Feb 15, 2014 3:01 pm UTC

I never knew katamari could pick up water.
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Re: 1330: "Kola Borehole"

Postby Who » Sun Feb 16, 2014 5:33 am UTC

Everyone appears to be thinking about this from the perspective that we need to destroy Hell, but why do we need to destroy it? Couldn't we use it?

If it's as hot as everyone says, use it for geothermal power, except, way more powerful. It it has demons and stuff, either enslave them or kill them and see if their bodies are useful for anything.

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Re: 1330: "Kola Borehole"

Postby Eebster the Great » Sun Feb 16, 2014 6:22 am UTC

Maybe demons wouldn't be mean to us if we saved them from hell. We only know that they're mean to the guy who put them there.

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Re: 1330: "Kola Borehole"

Postby rpgamer » Sun Feb 16, 2014 8:47 am UTC

If hell is eternally burning, and one of the products of combustion is water vapor, should hell already have plenty of water to go around?
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Re: 1330: "Kola Borehole"

Postby Klear » Sun Feb 16, 2014 9:06 am UTC

rpgamer wrote:If hell is eternally burning, and one of the products of combustion is water vapor, should hell already have plenty of water to go around?


Assuming hellfire = fire. It could be something else. Maybe... puppies?

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Re: 1330: "Kola Borehole"

Postby Steve the Pocket » Mon Feb 17, 2014 5:14 am UTC

Wilhelm wrote:Lucifer's [unintelligible rune] is probably written in Demon Arithmetic.

For those of you wanting to know what Demon Arithmetic is, behold the insanity that /tg/ produces in its off time:

1
2
3
4
5
6

What.

This is the sort of thing Isaac Newton might have come up with if he'd dropped acid.
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Re: 1330: "Kola Borehole"

Postby Djehutynakht » Mon Feb 17, 2014 9:49 am UTC

Eebster the Great wrote:Maybe demons wouldn't be mean to us if we saved them from hell. We only know that they're mean to the guy who put them there.


From what we know about demons at the present I think it would wise not to test "maybe"'s with them.

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Re: 1330: "Kola Borehole"

Postby PeteP » Mon Feb 17, 2014 9:58 am UTC

Djehutynakht wrote:
Eebster the Great wrote:Maybe demons wouldn't be mean to us if we saved them from hell. We only know that they're mean to the guy who put them there.


From what we know about demons at the present I think it would wise not to test "maybe"'s with them.

Look it is just their job. There is much prejudice against blue collar demons here! In a god-centric morality system they are doing nothing wrong, God sends them people, therefore what they do to them is sanctioned by god!

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Re: 1330: "Kola Borehole"

Postby Eebster the Great » Mon Feb 17, 2014 10:23 am UTC

PeteP wrote:
Djehutynakht wrote:
Eebster the Great wrote:Maybe demons wouldn't be mean to us if we saved them from hell. We only know that they're mean to the guy who put them there.


From what we know about demons at the present I think it would wise not to test "maybe"'s with them.

Look it is just their job. There is much prejudice against blue collar demons here! In a god-centric morality system they are doing nothing wrong, God sends them people, therefore what they do to them is sanctioned by god!

They do what they're told and take the blame when the big guy screws up. I think demons need to unionize.

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Re: 1330: "Kola Borehole"

Postby stickler » Mon Feb 17, 2014 12:50 pm UTC

You guys should listen to Old Harry's Game. Actually, everyone should listen to Old Harry's Game.

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Re: 1330: "Kola Borehole"

Postby Euphonium » Wed Feb 19, 2014 12:44 am UTC

Eutychus wrote:
bachaddict wrote:Title text: "Tonight's top story: Lucifer, the Prince of Darkness, died in his home this morning at the age of [unintelligible rune]. Due to the large number of sharks inhabiting his former kingdom, no body could be recovered."
Randall needs to revise his theology. The Bible describes Hell as a place of punishment for the devil, not somewhere he rules over.


This is cosmology (in the religious sense), not theology.

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Re: 1330: "Kola Borehole"

Postby Euphonium » Wed Feb 19, 2014 12:45 am UTC

bachaddict wrote:
Eutychus wrote:Randall needs to revise his theology. The Bible describes Hell as a place of punishment for the devil, not somewhere he rules over.

It will be where satan lives/exists eventually though.


The Eastern Orthodox churches, and an increasing number of Catholic thinkers, will probably disagree with you.

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Re: 1330: "Kola Borehole"

Postby PM 2Ring » Wed Feb 19, 2014 4:03 am UTC

I keep reading this thread title as "Koala Borehole". :)

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Re: 1330: "Kola Borehole"

Postby Klear » Wed Feb 19, 2014 10:31 am UTC

PM 2Ring wrote:I keep reading this thread title as "Koala Borehole". :)


Yup. Me too.

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Re: 1330: "Kola Borehole"

Postby Quizatzhaderac » Wed Feb 19, 2014 4:09 pm UTC

Eebster the Great wrote:They do what they're told and take the blame when the big guy screws up. I think demons need to unionize.
They did, which is why they got kicked out of heaven in the first place.

Actually that'd be a nice novel interpretation of Satan: corrupt union boss. Sure, he does screw over the company (Heaven) and the consumer (Earth) a little, but he's really screwing over the union (hell).
The thing about recursion problems is that they tend to contain other recursion problems.

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Re: 1330: "Kola Borehole"

Postby Eebster the Great » Wed Feb 19, 2014 10:58 pm UTC

Quizatzhaderac wrote:
Eebster the Great wrote:They do what they're told and take the blame when the big guy screws up. I think demons need to unionize.
They did, which is why they got kicked out of heaven in the first place.

Actually that'd be a nice novel interpretation of Satan: corrupt union boss. Sure, he does screw over the company (Heaven) and the consumer (Earth) a little, but he's really screwing over the union (hell).

Yeah, but new legislation passed that allowed heaven to hire non-union angels, and they decided to punish the whole union rather than just the leadership. Now the demons don't trust Satan or God and are being squeezed from both ends.

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Re: 1330: "Kola Borehole"

Postby Quizatzhaderac » Thu Feb 20, 2014 3:38 pm UTC

Huh? so union exclusivity was enforceable by positive law before the union even formed? I'm not sure I've ever heard of any law requiring specific unions to be employed (unless you count bar associations as unions); usually (I believe) union exclusivity is the result of agreement between the union and employers.
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Re: 1330: "Kola Borehole"

Postby Eebster the Great » Thu Feb 20, 2014 8:14 pm UTC

Quizatzhaderac wrote:Huh? so union exclusivity was enforceable by positive law before the union even formed? I'm not sure I've ever heard of any law requiring specific unions to be employed (unless you count bar associations as unions); usually (I believe) union exclusivity is the result of agreement between the union and employers.

I don't know about the history of angelic unions before the war in heaven, but by the start of the war there was a union led by Satan, and new non-union workers on the other side (with God).

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Re: 1330: "Kola Borehole"

Postby Quizatzhaderac » Thu Feb 20, 2014 10:15 pm UTC

Right, but you said there was "new legislation passed that allowed heaven to hire non-union angels", which implies the old legislation didn't. Which in turn seems to imply some kind of fiat unionmade up term, a concept I'm not familiar with.

Also, in our extended analogy, the difference between angels and demons is political, both groups belonging to an over-arching species. If they were not (yet) angels, or demons, what group are these scabs coming from?
The thing about recursion problems is that they tend to contain other recursion problems.

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Re: 1330: "Kola Borehole"

Postby Pfhorrest » Thu Feb 20, 2014 11:41 pm UTC

Quizatzhaderac wrote:Right, but you said there was "new legislation passed that allowed heaven to hire non-union angels", which implies the old legislation didn't. Which in turn seems to imply some kind of fiat unionmade up term, a concept I'm not familiar with.

Also, in our extended analogy, the difference between angels and demons is political, both groups belonging to an over-arching species. If they were not (yet) angels, or demons, what group are these scabs coming from?

Ignoring Eebster's contribution to this metaphor, I think "angel" is just the species in general, and they were all non-union to begin with, working directly for the sole proprietor. Then Lucifer said fuck that shit, got a bunch of them to unionize (with him as their union boss), and everyone in the new union was promptly fired and demonized (literally... dubbed "demons" and sent into a lake of fire), leaving only the remaining non-union angels still working there.
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Re: 1330: "Kola Borehole"

Postby Eebster the Great » Fri Feb 21, 2014 1:55 am UTC

Quizatzhaderac wrote:Right, but you said there was "new legislation passed that allowed heaven to hire non-union angels", which implies the old legislation didn't. Which in turn seems to imply some kind of fiat unionmade up term, a concept I'm not familiar with.

Also, in our extended analogy, the difference between angels and demons is political, both groups belonging to an over-arching species. If they were not (yet) angels, or demons, what group are these scabs coming from?

Well, I'm assuming heavenly unions work something like their Earthly counterpart. Presumably, first came the angel union, then came legislation requiring heaven to hire union angels only, then came new legislation ending the union security agreement and allowing "workplace freedom" (as they are currently calling it in Ohio), or the right to work without a union. The shifting politics of heaven can just be glimpsed from a careful reading of the Old Testament and parallel the fickle whims of YHWH.

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Re: 1330: "Kola Borehole"

Postby Pfhorrest » Fri Feb 21, 2014 2:40 am UTC

Eebster the Great wrote:
Quizatzhaderac wrote:Right, but you said there was "new legislation passed that allowed heaven to hire non-union angels", which implies the old legislation didn't. Which in turn seems to imply some kind of fiat unionmade up term, a concept I'm not familiar with.

Also, in our extended analogy, the difference between angels and demons is political, both groups belonging to an over-arching species. If they were not (yet) angels, or demons, what group are these scabs coming from?

Well, I'm assuming heavenly unions work something like their Earthly counterpart. Presumably, first came the angel union, then came legislation requiring heaven to hire union angels only, then came new legislation ending the union security agreement and allowing "workplace freedom" (as they are currently calling it in Ohio), or the right to work without a union. The shifting politics of heaven can just be glimpsed from a careful reading of the Old Testament and parallel the fickle whims of YHWH.

If we're still sticking with Satan as the union boss here, that story would require all of the loyal/non-rebel angels (those who didn't join the union/Satan) to have been fired during the time period that only union angels could be hired, which I don't think you'll find any suggestion of even in apocrypha like Milton. (Yes I know Milton is not technically apocryphal in the religious studies sense, not like the Gospel of Thomas and such are, but I'm failing to come up for another word for "something largely treated as canon (in the fandom sense) but which is technically not", as Milton's works are to the Christian mythology).
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Re: 1330: "Kola Borehole"

Postby addams » Fri Feb 21, 2014 4:39 am UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:
Quizatzhaderac wrote:Right, but you said there was "new legislation passed that allowed heaven to hire non-union angels", which implies the old legislation didn't. Which in turn seems to imply some kind of fiat unionmade up term, a concept I'm not familiar with.

Also, in our extended analogy, the difference between angels and demons is political, both groups belonging to an over-arching species. If they were not (yet) angels, or demons, what group are these scabs coming from?

Ignoring Eebster's contribution to this metaphor, I think "angel" is just the species in general, and they were all non-union to begin with, working directly for the sole proprietor. Then Lucifer said fuck that shit, got a bunch of them to unionize (with him as their union boss), and everyone in the new union was promptly fired and demonized (literally... dubbed "demons" and sent into a lake of fire), leaving only the remaining non-union angels still working there.

No. Really?
The way I heard the story it was very Romantic, highly Intellectual and Passionate.
Like Family Law. On a good day.

You have it moved over to Labor Law?
That will make sorting things out easier.

Family Law is Hard.
Labor Law is Rational.

The Angels are Union?
What are the lowly humans?

Are we like a crop?
Like Beef? Like corn or wheat?
Or; Are we a product? Like dishes or structures?

Where do humans fit in?
We are like the seeds of wheat?

Each one is not much.
Together they are 'much'.

ech. I don't believe in the Big Guy in the Sky.
If I am going to entertain the idea.

I like the Family Law story.
Two Beautiful Creatures that love one another with Passion.
Then who knows what happened?

A Divorce?
NEVER! (?)

They may have gone their separate ways for a while.
Such Passion. Such Tenderness.

I think after all this time,
they are fine with one another.

They don't have any interest in you.
None. They are interested in each other.

I like that translation.
Love two beautiful gay Gods.

And; Do good work.
Inside a Labor Union;
Whenever possible.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: 1330: "Kola Borehole"

Postby Eebster the Great » Fri Feb 21, 2014 8:55 am UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:
Eebster the Great wrote:
Quizatzhaderac wrote:Right, but you said there was "new legislation passed that allowed heaven to hire non-union angels", which implies the old legislation didn't. Which in turn seems to imply some kind of fiat unionmade up term, a concept I'm not familiar with.

Also, in our extended analogy, the difference between angels and demons is political, both groups belonging to an over-arching species. If they were not (yet) angels, or demons, what group are these scabs coming from?

Well, I'm assuming heavenly unions work something like their Earthly counterpart. Presumably, first came the angel union, then came legislation requiring heaven to hire union angels only, then came new legislation ending the union security agreement and allowing "workplace freedom" (as they are currently calling it in Ohio), or the right to work without a union. The shifting politics of heaven can just be glimpsed from a careful reading of the Old Testament and parallel the fickle whims of YHWH.

If we're still sticking with Satan as the union boss here, that story would require all of the loyal/non-rebel angels (those who didn't join the union/Satan) to have been fired during the time period that only union angels could be hired, which I don't think you'll find any suggestion of even in apocrypha like Milton. (Yes I know Milton is not technically apocryphal in the religious studies sense, not like the Gospel of Thomas and such are, but I'm failing to come up for another word for "something largely treated as canon (in the fandom sense) but which is technically not", as Milton's works are to the Christian mythology).

Well the Bible only mentions the war in heaven in Revelation, so we're never going to get a clear picture of it. Human labor unions didn't exist at the time, so people wrote it as best they could understand. God probably didn't see fit for humans to know the bureaucratic details of heaven.


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