1386: "People are Stupid"

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Re: 1386: "People are Stupid"

Postby Weeks » Thu Jun 26, 2014 1:31 am UTC

Or maybe she's a platypus.
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Re: 1386: "People are Stupid"

Postby SecondTalon » Thu Jun 26, 2014 1:32 am UTC

Khaz wrote:
SecondTalon wrote:So now imma read another goddamn thread and figure out who's the asshole and reprimand them and can you people stop making me do work?

I'm the asshole. Saved you some work.

Give me this reprimand thing it sounds delicious

You aren't nearly as bad as the racist shitstain xenophobic fucker earlier.
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heuristically_alone wrote:I have been informed that this is called writing a book.

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Re: 1386: "People are Stupid"

Postby addams » Thu Jun 26, 2014 1:35 am UTC

TG333 wrote:From my experience it´s not that the majority of people are stupid, but that the subset of stupid people is much more visible than the rest. You don´t really recognize the two hundred cars every morning on your way to work merging friendly and thoughtful, but once that moron cuts your lane you´ll find a nice stereotype of stupid (people from town X, Prius driver, women, men, the elderly, the young - whatever feature you fancy the most that day).

This post reminds me of the One Liner:
"Be Kind; Others are fighting a hard battle."

I am too stupid to figure out who said it first.
It rings so true; Maybe, no one said it First.

Maybe it has been true so long and said so many times,
There is no first time. Can we learn to say it, again?
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
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Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: 1386: "Stupid People are Stupid"

Postby Trickster » Thu Jun 26, 2014 1:51 am UTC

Jave D wrote:I know it's not what you meant, but somehow I can't shake the suspicion that you are, in fact, not a woman at all but a gigantic chicken who can lay eggs.

I'd insert an image of Chicken Boo here but I'm fairly certain it would break forum rules (or at least decorum--nobody here posts ponies jegus what is wrong with society today).

But, yes: I meant that I can process eggs for culinary purposes which do not actually come out of or from my body in particular.

I'd insert an image of Kevin McDonald here but... eh y'all get the subtexts by now

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Re: 1386: "People are Stupid"

Postby Brace » Thu Jun 26, 2014 2:08 am UTC

This post had objectionable content.
Last edited by Brace on Mon Oct 06, 2014 12:46 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 1386: "Stupid People are Stupid"

Postby SecondTalon » Thu Jun 26, 2014 3:46 am UTC

Trickster wrote:I'd insert an image of Chicken Boo here but I'm fairly certain it would break forum rules (or at least decorum--nobody here posts ponies jegus what is wrong with society today).

watch as I rage against the machine

Image

And Mark McKinney was Chicken Lady.
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heuristically_alone wrote:I have been informed that this is called writing a book.

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Re: 1386: "People are Stupid"

Postby Tova » Thu Jun 26, 2014 3:49 am UTC

Khaz wrote:Oh Randall. Love xkcd to death but now and then you just piss me off with a preachy statement like this.

<rand snipped>


I agree. My half-arsed theory is that he is now deliberately targeting the "relevant xkcd" demographic. More and more of his comics appear to be deliberately designed to be pasted into internet arguments.

Oh, yes. "Someone is wrong on the internet," indeed.

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Re: 1386: "People are Stupid"

Postby SecondTalon » Thu Jun 26, 2014 3:52 am UTC

Y'all do read the superior science comic, SMBC, right?
heuristically_alone wrote:I want to write a DnD campaign and play it by myself and DM it myself.
heuristically_alone wrote:I have been informed that this is called writing a book.

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Re: 1386: "People are Stupid"

Postby BlitzGirl » Thu Jun 26, 2014 3:55 am UTC

Science Makes Babies Cry? Of course I follow it!

Oh, you mean the other SMBC.
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Re: 1386: "People are Stupid"

Postby SecondTalon » Thu Jun 26, 2014 4:07 am UTC

No, you were right the first time.
heuristically_alone wrote:I want to write a DnD campaign and play it by myself and DM it myself.
heuristically_alone wrote:I have been informed that this is called writing a book.

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Re: 1386: "People are Stupid"

Postby Brace » Thu Jun 26, 2014 4:26 am UTC

This post had objectionable content.
Last edited by Brace on Mon Oct 06, 2014 12:46 am UTC, edited 2 times in total.
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http://xkcd.com/774/

Postby BlitzGirl » Thu Jun 26, 2014 4:27 am UTC

SecondTalon Moderates Babbling Chaos is always good for a read, too.

What was this thread about again? Oh yes, people are stupid.

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Re: 1386: "People are Stupid"

Postby Steve the Pocket » Thu Jun 26, 2014 4:30 am UTC

I think there are two valid interpretations of this strip. One is that Randall believes everyone who says "people are stupid" is an arrogant douchebag who think they're the real-life One Sane Man. The other is that there are simply a lot of such people out there, and that the use of that phrase should be considered a possible warning sign. See also: People saying they "don't suffer fools gladly", which often tends to mean "I'm an asshole to everyone I perceive as being less intelligent than me, and I'm not especially picky about who I put in that category." At least in my experience.

SecondTalon wrote:I come in to a thread about a comic.

I see arguments about the usage of nuclear weapons. In a three page thread.

Thread drift is one thing.

How the hell did y'all get that off-topic? That's what I'd like to know and, until now, was too lazy to find out.

For what it's worth, I would have put money on the "Social Security will destroy the white man" guy to be the main reason this thread had already reached 4 pages in less than a day.

I also assumed the "History suggests this won't happen" was meant to be a joke, but that's more because sarcastically saying "It's never happened before!" has become something of a running gag in my household.
cephalopod9 wrote:Only on Xkcd can you start a topic involving Hitler and people spend the better part of half a dozen pages arguing about the quality of Operating Systems.

Baige.

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Re: 1386: "People are Stupid"

Postby Eebster the Great » Thu Jun 26, 2014 4:35 am UTC

Findel wrote:
50% of the population are below average intelligence.


Errr, that's just not true. It's not how averages work.

If you have 10 people, 1 with an IQ of 130 and the rest all have IQs of 90. Then the average IQ is 94 and 90% of the people are below average.

Does anyone know what the actual percentage of people with below average IQs is?

Well that may not be how a hypothetical absolute measure of intelligence would work (e.g. raw scores on IQ tests), but it certainly IS how IQ works. The median and mean IQs are both 100 by definition.

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Re: 1386: "People are Stupid"

Postby addams » Thu Jun 26, 2014 4:49 am UTC

Brace wrote:I think most of what passes for stupidity is just laziness and lack of discipline.

ok. That may be true.
Ambition and self discipline are easier for some than for others.

Those two things Can be Taught!
Why are we not teaching them??

Because we don't know?
We can't teach something we don't know.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
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Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: 1386: "People are Stupid"

Postby Pfhorrest » Thu Jun 26, 2014 5:30 am UTC

Brace wrote:
SecondTalon wrote:Y'all do read the superior science comic, SMBC, right?

Existentialism =/= determinism. Most existentialists were actually concerned with the ramifications of human freedom, so the common understanding isn't just wrong but pretty much exactly opposite to fact. A deterministic outlook is also based on an inductive leap and therefore no more scientific than the concept of free will. This will never stop pissing me off.

I feel like I missed a segue here. What does the contrast of existentialism and determinism have to do with xkcd and SMBC? Are you saying one is analogous to the other?
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Re: 1386: "People are Stupid"

Postby Eebster the Great » Thu Jun 26, 2014 7:01 am UTC

I don't get how being inductive makes something unscientific. Determinism might be unscientific for other reasons (e.g. being unfalsifiable), but all science is inductive.

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Re: 1386: "People are Stupid"

Postby zanglebert » Thu Jun 26, 2014 7:20 am UTC

mmmh, the sweet, sweet irony...


The comic:

Be excellent to each other. Don't act all superior because of some perceived (and actually kinda doubtful) intellectual superiority.


The discussion in here about said comic:

Don't tell me not to feel superior, Randall! Clearly, I am objectively smarter than those plebs, so that rule doesn't apply to me.

or:

[lecturing tone] Aaactually, there can be more than 50% of the population below average IQ... you see, when talking about the median... [/lecturing tone]


I will close with the wise words of Neil deGrasse Sagan, the authoritative source on intelligence and professional quote making:

In this moment, I am euphoric. Not because of any phony god’s blessing. But because, I am enlightened by my intelligence.
Last edited by zanglebert on Thu Jun 26, 2014 11:38 am UTC, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: 1386: "Stupid People are Stupid"

Postby orthogon » Thu Jun 26, 2014 8:13 am UTC

Trickster wrote:
unus vox wrote:...the word "average" is being used more colloquially, in reference to something more akin to the mode (there, are you happy?) of people's interactions with others.

Given that there aren't distinct intellect "classes" of people, you might mean median?


A continuous distribution can have a mode, too: it's the value for which the probability density is maximum. Taking height as an example, if the mode is, say, 165.2cm, then more people will be within, say, a millimetre of 165.2cm than are within a millimetre of any other height, even though almost nobody is exactly 165.2cm tall. The choice of a millimetre is irrelevant; actually it should be an infinitesimal interval, so in principle a micron would be a closer approximation but you'd start worrying about sampling error. For a Normal Distribution the mode is also equal to the mean and median.

SecondTalon wrote:I come in to a thread about a comic.

I see arguments about the usage of nuclear weapons. In a three page thread.


But Sir/Miss, Mr Gmal lets us go off topic and doublepost and everything... ;-)
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

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Re: 1386: "People are Stupid"

Postby Dryhad » Thu Jun 26, 2014 8:44 am UTC

IQ doesn't just "follow" the normal distribution, it's defined as normally distributed. Using this to claim that intelligence is therefore also normally distributed is begging the question.

Much of what I came here to say has already been said, and xkcd 603 has even been brought up already, but I do want to add that this comic and that one share an odd characterisation of "intelligent" people who say things that are monumentally unintelligent yet are still blindly accepted as being intelligent. It's almost as though intelligence is some socio-political group like a culture or something, and just as you can't deny that someone is a Scotsman on the grounds that he has sugar in his porridge, you also can't deny that someone is intelligent on the grounds that he argues for a horrendously inefficient (not to mention morally abhorrent) eugenics program as a solution to a problem that doesn't exist outside of Lamarckian fantasy. I mean, smart people can say stupid things, sure, but it always seemed odd to me that the character in 603 was just accepted as smart despite doing so, and likewise with this comic.

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Re: 1386: "People are Stupid"

Postby mr-mitch » Thu Jun 26, 2014 12:29 pm UTC

I recently watched Men In Black and I'd tend to agree with something they commented on.
People are stupid. Individually, they aren't. Groups of people act in weird ways.But if you have a conversation with a person on normal things most often they seem reasonable.

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Re: 1386: "People are Stupid"

Postby Brace » Thu Jun 26, 2014 12:31 pm UTC

This post had objectionable content.
Last edited by Brace on Mon Oct 06, 2014 12:46 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 1386: "People are Stupid"

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Jun 26, 2014 2:26 pm UTC

zanglebert wrote:mmmh, the sweet, sweet irony...


The comic:

Be excellent to each other. Don't act all superior because of some perceived (and actually kinda doubtful) intellectual superiority.


The discussion in here about said comic:

Don't tell me not to feel superior, Randall! Clearly, I am objectively smarter than those plebs, so that rule doesn't apply to me.


At the risk of sounding arrogant, assuming a normal distribution of intelligence, for any given definition of intelligence, a substantial number of people ARE significantly smarter than average, and an even larger number of people might grow frustrated from interacting with those lower on the curve.

It's not inherently incorrect to believe that you are superior in regards to x if you actually are. I accept that there are people who are objectively smarter than me for any given definition of smarter, just like there are people who are stronger, faster, or what have you.

The human dislike of clearly quantifying smarter doesn't really change this. It's like a person who is thin observing that people are getting fat. Yes. We are. In the wrong context, this might be rude or what not, but it's not actually wrong.

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Re: 1386: "People are Stupid"

Postby Whizbang » Thu Jun 26, 2014 2:29 pm UTC

I'm not fat. I'm big boned. And retaining water. And wearing thick/heavy clothes that don't flatter my figure. And the lighting is bad.

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Re: 1386: "People are Stupid"

Postby Brace » Thu Jun 26, 2014 3:00 pm UTC

This post had objectionable content.
Last edited by Brace on Mon Oct 06, 2014 12:46 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 1386: "People are Stupid"

Postby moiraemachy » Thu Jun 26, 2014 3:12 pm UTC

Brace wrote:
Eebster the Great wrote:I don't get how being inductive makes something unscientific. Determinism might be unscientific for other reasons (e.g. being unfalsifiable), but all science is inductive.

Induction is impossible. Read Popper. It's a heuristic we use because it has the highest probability of being true, but it's not epistemologically sound past that, and literally the entire history of science is filled with examples of a trend ceasing to hold. In general, that's what it means for something to be falsified.

Or just read this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_induction. You might want to go deeper if it's your thing, but beware: pedant territory. ("How can you be sure that something has been falsified?", "can you reach any conclusion about the world through your senses?", "what does it mean to know something?" and my favourite, "how can you be certain that you are certain of something?")

How to win at epistemology: always ask "how can you be certain of that?", always answer "I don't know". Maybe "I can't know", if you are feeling bold.

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Re: 1386: "Stupid People are Stupid"

Postby DougDean » Thu Jun 26, 2014 3:16 pm UTC

HES wrote:50% of the population are below average intelligence.
Actually, 50% of the population are below the median intelligence.

Actually, stupidity as most often used, doesn't refer to actual intelligence, but bad judgement and foolish choices. Many intelligent people I have known have been responsible for egregiously stupid behavior such as believing in anthropocentric global warming despite the mountain of evidence against it (stable or lowering temperatures) and despite the growing amount of evidence of dishonest scientific practices (fudging the actual data to match the computer models) whereas I have known a good many mentally retarded people who use every last iota of the intelligence they have, exhibit very good judgement and are not by any definition of the word stupid.

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Re: 1386: "Stupid People are Stupid"

Postby speising » Thu Jun 26, 2014 3:27 pm UTC

DougDean wrote:
HES wrote:50% of the population are below average intelligence.
Actually, 50% of the population are below the median intelligence.

if you want to be pedantic, you should first inform youself, eg. even by reading this thread.
we can only apply IQ here, since this is the only quantified definition of intelligence we have.
IQ is defined as normal distribution. average=median=mean=mode.

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Re: 1386: "People are Stupid"

Postby Klear » Thu Jun 26, 2014 3:31 pm UTC

SecondTalon wrote:Y'all do read the superior science comic, SMBC, right?


This reminded me of the votey on this comic.

BlitzGirl wrote:Science Makes Babies Cry? Of course I follow it!

Oh, you mean the other SMBC.


I can't believe there are only two hits on google for the phrase "Science Makes Babies Cry". One of them is you, just now, and the other is "Pseudo-Science Makes Babies Cry", so it doesn't even count.

Eebster the Great wrote:Well that may not be how a hypothetical absolute measure of intelligence would work (e.g. raw scores on IQ tests), but it certainly IS how IQ works. The median and mean IQs are both 100 by definition.


I believe that was the case when the tests were created. Average intelligence has increased a little bit in the meantime. They might be adjusting the tests to compensate though, not sure about that.

zanglebert wrote:mmmh, the sweet, sweet irony...


The comic:

Be excellent to each other. Don't act all superior because of some perceived (and actually kinda doubtful) intellectual superiority.


I don't see how you get that from the comic. I see a guy being an asshole to the other guy because he thinks he's acting superior to others.

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Re: 1386: "People are Stupid"

Postby zanglebert » Thu Jun 26, 2014 3:35 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
zanglebert wrote:mmmh, the sweet, sweet irony...


The comic:

Be excellent to each other. Don't act all superior because of some perceived (and actually kinda doubtful) intellectual superiority.


The discussion in here about said comic:

Don't tell me not to feel superior, Randall! Clearly, I am objectively smarter than those plebs, so that rule doesn't apply to me.


At the risk of sounding arrogant, assuming a normal distribution of intelligence, for any given definition of intelligence, a substantial number of people ARE significantly smarter than average, and an even larger number of people might grow frustrated from interacting with those lower on the curve.

It's not inherently incorrect to believe that you are superior in regards to x if you actually are. I accept that there are people who are objectively smarter than me for any given definition of smarter, just like there are people who are stronger, faster, or what have you.

The human dislike of clearly quantifying smarter doesn't really change this. It's like a person who is thin observing that people are getting fat. Yes. We are. In the wrong context, this might be rude or what not, but it's not actually wrong.


Hence my phrasing: "to feel superior".

There is stating empirical facts. And then there is gloating/ridiculing/dismissing opinions/in general: being a dick because of something that is taken to be an empirical fact, but in most circumstances where it is used, is just the vague intuition that the fact applies here.

It's not like every time someone writes "Damn, people who believe X are so stupid" sets up a proper IQ test for the group in question before making that claim... in fact, I'd say that happened exactly zero times in the entire history of the Internet :D

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Re: 1386: "People are Stupid"

Postby orthogon » Thu Jun 26, 2014 4:02 pm UTC

Brace wrote:So it's difficult to imagine someone with an IQ of 120 getting angry at someone with an IQ of 110 for anything effectively caused by their lower IQ, ...

I have the privilege to work with some extremely intelligent people, and I've certainly seen someone of well above average intelligence get frustrated with a colleague of only slightly less stellar intellect because of their difficulty in grasping something. This can lead to actual anger when someone goes away and implements something "wrongly" because they failed to grasp the complex theoretical principle. In fairness it's probably more often a question of differences in areas of specialism rather than a different intelligence levels on some one-dimensional scale, but I've definitely seen both. Hell, I've been one of the parties on more than one occasion.
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

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Re: 1386: "Stupid People are Stupid"

Postby Trickster » Thu Jun 26, 2014 5:24 pm UTC

SecondTalon wrote:watch as I rage against the machine

dude you are the machine that doesn't count :V

SecondTalon wrote:And Mark McKinney was Chicken Lady.

Yes, but Kevin looks a lot more like a chicken without any makeup...

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Re: 1386: "People are Stupid"

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Jun 26, 2014 5:27 pm UTC

Klear wrote:
Eebster the Great wrote:Well that may not be how a hypothetical absolute measure of intelligence would work (e.g. raw scores on IQ tests), but it certainly IS how IQ works. The median and mean IQs are both 100 by definition.


I believe that was the case when the tests were created. Average intelligence has increased a little bit in the meantime. They might be adjusting the tests to compensate though, not sure about that.


Scoring is frequently adjusted, yes, so that median/mean remain 100. Flynn Effect is the traditional name for the increase. Disagreement exists about how much of that is a real increase in intelligence, because people can't really agree on what intelligence is, but it does seem likely that the human race is getting more intelligent over time on the long scale.

And yeah, other meanings that an subjective measurement of others to yourself could be meant by the statement...but those are not necessarily wrong either. I'm afraid I disagree with the premise of this particular comic. Sniping at the self important is fun, to be sure, but this is more "culturally normal expression of frustration" than "everyone who says this is some kind of elitist".

orthogon wrote:
Brace wrote:So it's difficult to imagine someone with an IQ of 120 getting angry at someone with an IQ of 110 for anything effectively caused by their lower IQ, ...

I have the privilege to work with some extremely intelligent people, and I've certainly seen someone of well above average intelligence get frustrated with a colleague of only slightly less stellar intellect because of their difficulty in grasping something. This can lead to actual anger when someone goes away and implements something "wrongly" because they failed to grasp the complex theoretical principle. In fairness it's probably more often a question of differences in areas of specialism rather than a different intelligence levels on some one-dimensional scale, but I've definitely seen both. Hell, I've been one of the parties on more than one occasion.


This is an actual thing, yes. I'm aware that I am *very* arrogant in some respects, and have to watch this...but surely some insight into this can be grasped by nearly anyone, as they watch obviously terrible campaigns collect piles of money on kickstarter, or people promote obviously ridiculous causes(say, anti-vaccination), etc. There are many things out there about which you can clearly say "yes, this is stupidity", and which seem to be strangely accepted.

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Re: 1386: "People are Stupid"

Postby speising » Thu Jun 26, 2014 5:40 pm UTC

i am often frustrated by the stupidity of others, but also of my own.

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Re: 1386: "People are Stupid"

Postby StapleHorseOctopus » Thu Jun 26, 2014 5:50 pm UTC

Can we get back to discussing unexisting nuclear warheads being used to eradicate stupid fucker asshole smartasses but in fact turning average intelligence people into platypi and/or chickens with LSD?

Wait, I think I mixed some stuff up there...does that make me a victim, too?

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Re: 1386: "People are Stupid"

Postby eran_rathan » Thu Jun 26, 2014 6:10 pm UTC

Brace wrote:Induction is impossible. Read Popper.


Godwin's Law, corollary II (Popper's Law): If you include the words "Read Popper." in any post, for whatever reason, you've immediately lost the argument. Go sit by a lake.
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Re: 1386: "People are Stupid"

Postby Brace » Thu Jun 26, 2014 6:21 pm UTC

This post had objectionable content.
Last edited by Brace on Mon Oct 06, 2014 12:46 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 1386: "People are Stupid"

Postby eran_rathan » Thu Jun 26, 2014 6:26 pm UTC

Brace wrote:What an authoritarian response.



Just because you claim to have read Popper doesn't mean you understand it (that's both a generic 'you' and directed 'you', just so that we're clear).
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Re: 1386: "People are Stupid"

Postby Brace » Thu Jun 26, 2014 6:27 pm UTC

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Re: 1386: "People are Stupid"

Postby Introbulus » Thu Jun 26, 2014 6:48 pm UTC

I'm going to go by pure logic here, and conclude that Whitehat is right on the mark.

There are <1 people in the world who are, by some measure, stupid.

Therefore, (some) people are stupid.

Also known as the 'sucker born every minute' theory of thought.

And I'm no statistician, but I'm fairly certain people in the world (me included) do some pretty stupid things, and I'd like to see us acknowledge those stupid things, not to feel superior, but to learn from them. And to discourage repetition of mistakes (except for scientific progress of course).
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