1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby mojacardave » Wed Aug 27, 2014 10:12 am UTC

drazen wrote:I, too, was trying to figure out how to work in the other lyrics that didn't fit the TMNT pattern.


It's more a case that you can sing the ENTIRE chorus, with any of the lyrics on the page.

Orange County Business Council
Orange County Business Council
Orange County Business Council
Heroes in a half-shell
Turtle power

Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon
Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon
Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon
Heroes in a half-shell
Turtle power

etc.

It's a stress pattern comic, which is very xkcd, rather than an 'alternate words to a song' comic, which is very un-xkcd.

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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby Vir4030 » Wed Aug 27, 2014 10:25 am UTC

*sigh* You are all a bunch of nitpicking fools.

It's quite clear that the syllable pattern is only for the "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles" part of the song. I might have been confused for half a second when I tried to sing the 4th entry to the "Heroes in a half-shell" part, but the confusion was lifted almost instantaneously when I realized what was going on.

Also, even though I'm from the Midwest, I realize that the word "Orange" always has two syllables when used as part of a syllable stress pattern.

I enjoyed this comic, and was glad to see it. I still think it's fun two days in :)

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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby gmalivuk » Wed Aug 27, 2014 12:22 pm UTC

I think it's more accurate to say "orange" has one or two syllables in verse, depending on what's needed to fit the meter. Much as -ed endings are pronounced in Shakespeare.
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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby shokoshu » Wed Aug 27, 2014 12:35 pm UTC

Is it just me being German, or are some trochees equaller than others?
Because I might pronounce a ^_^_^_^_ pattern as ^___^___:
TEEEEnagemutant NINNNjaturtles (mumbling on the un-stressed syllables optional).
Reverse is likewise possible due to trochee fixation - ^^^_^_^_ becoming ^_^_^_^_ .
(Is "Einstein" ^^ or ^_?)

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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby gmalivuk » Wed Aug 27, 2014 12:37 pm UTC

A trochee is always one stressed syllable followed by one unstressed one, by definition.

If you cram more of either type of syllable in there, it's not a trochee any more.
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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby dp2 » Wed Aug 27, 2014 1:16 pm UTC

shokoshu wrote:Is it just me being German, or are some trochees equaller than others?
Because I might pronounce a ^_^_^_^_ pattern as ^___^___:
TEEEEnagemutant NINNNjaturtles (mumbling on the un-stressed syllables optional).
Reverse is likewise possible due to trochee fixation - ^^^_^_^_ becoming ^_^_^_^_ .
(Is "Einstein" ^^ or ^_?)

Oddly enough, the song isn't sung as trochees but as iambs. Normally each word is a trochee*, but the song emphasizes the even syllables.

* unless it's in a question. "Teenage?" "Mutant?"

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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby orthogon » Wed Aug 27, 2014 1:56 pm UTC

dp2 wrote:
shokoshu wrote:Is it just me being German, or are some trochees equaller than others?
Because I might pronounce a ^_^_^_^_ pattern as ^___^___:
TEEEEnagemutant NINNNjaturtles (mumbling on the un-stressed syllables optional).
Reverse is likewise possible due to trochee fixation - ^^^_^_^_ becoming ^_^_^_^_ .
(Is "Einstein" ^^ or ^_?)

Oddly enough, the song isn't sung as trochees but as iambs. Normally each word is a trochee*, but the song emphasizes the even syllables.

I'd never thought about it, but that's a result of the music putting the accent on the offbeats (2 and 4), as is common in the majority of western popular music since around 1950 [citation needed]. Effectively the stress pattern of the lyrics work in antiphase to the music. A lot of rock is like that (think "Give me ALL your lovin' (!) / all your HUGS and kisses TOO") . The downbeat is so strong psychologically that it makes its presence felt even when it's not emphasised by the drums; so it sounds ok to have stressed syllables on the downbeat. In fact, leaving the downbeat unaccented musically is part of what gives reggae and son cubano their distinctive sound. Then again, you can play with it too, and make the accented offbeats line up with the stressed syllable, or a mixture (e.g. "Born in the USA"). Wow. There really is a lot to songwriting.
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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby david.windsor » Wed Aug 27, 2014 8:50 pm UTC

It doesn't work for me, my brain keeps using the theme from "Inspector Gadget" :?
"All those ... moments, will be lost ... in time, like tears ... in rain."

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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby gmalivuk » Thu Aug 28, 2014 12:54 am UTC

dp2 wrote:Oddly enough, the song isn't sung as trochees but as iambs. Normally each word is a trochee*, but the song emphasizes the even syllables
No, it just has them at a higher pitch. In speaking this often corresponds with stress, but obviously pitch and tone are somewhat separated from the rest of pronunciation in songs.
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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby dp2 » Thu Aug 28, 2014 1:37 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
dp2 wrote:Oddly enough, the song isn't sung as trochees but as iambs. Normally each word is a trochee*, but the song emphasizes the even syllables
No, it just has them at a higher pitch. In speaking this often corresponds with stress, but obviously pitch and tone are somewhat separated from the rest of pronunciation in songs.

Maybe so, but they certainly aren't being sung as trochees, with the odd syllables emphasized.

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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby gmalivuk » Thu Aug 28, 2014 1:46 am UTC

I'd say they're still trochees, with the syllable length and previously mentioned psychological effect of the downbeat contributing more to trochee stress than mere pitch and spoken volume do to the iambs.
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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby Shmuel » Thu Aug 28, 2014 3:50 am UTC

dp2 wrote:Maybe so, but they certainly aren't being sung as trochees, with the odd syllables emphasized.

Sure they are!

Here, have a demonstration. First time through is sung as per the original, with trochaic stresses; second time is forced into iambic stresses.

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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby Klear » Thu Aug 28, 2014 1:08 pm UTC

The link seems dead, but I just love the file name:

"tmnt-trochaic-vs-iambic"

That's SO xkcd.

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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby gmalivuk » Thu Aug 28, 2014 1:16 pm UTC

Or if you'd like yet another earworm, consider "I am the very model of a modern major-general," which is iambic. Switch the words back and forth and it's clear the TMNT theme is trochaic.
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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby Shmuel » Thu Aug 28, 2014 2:28 pm UTC

Klear wrote:The link seems dead

Oops. Sorry! I had thought SoundCloud's "private" setting was the same as YouTube's "unlisted"; that is, that if you had the URL, you could hear it. I just set it to "public" instead.

I just love the file name:

"tmnt-trochaic-vs-iambic"

That's SO xkcd.

This is true. :)

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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby mathmannix » Thu Aug 28, 2014 3:15 pm UTC

BlitzGirl wrote:
mathmannix wrote:Yes, but some Americans pronounce Moscow as "moss-koh", rather than the correct[citation needed] Americanization of "ma's cow" (which is how Moscow, Idaho is pronounced - it doesn't rhyme with its state.)

Anecdotally, people who actually live in Moscow, Idaho, pronounce their city's name as moss-koh. So it does rhyme with the state.

Source: Half my family lives there.
See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_idaho


Interesting. While I was willfully disagreeing with Wikipedia, I will not disagree with you and your family evidence. However, I wonder if it has changed over time - my grandfather lived there in the 1930's (I don't believe I currently have relatives there), and when we visited there in the 1990's, he told me that it was pronounced "ma's cow."
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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby orthogon » Thu Aug 28, 2014 3:19 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:Or if you'd like yet another earworm, consider "I am the very model of a modern major-general," which is iambic. Switch the words back and forth and it's clear the TMNT theme is trochaic.

But interestingly, it starts with what we jazzers call a "pickup"[1], i.e. a note before the first proper bar (=measure), such that the stressed syllables fall on the downbeats. From a musical standpoint, the distinction between trochees and iambs is less relevant; the stressed-unstressed sequence just goes on relentlessly and the difference is when you jump on and off; it's more about where the phrases begin and end than about the putative "feet" that make them up. Similarly, in my head the sequence carries on through the gaps between lines; so iambic pentameter is really a sequence of eight "beats" with three silent ones between the lines. (That's one reason why I wouldn't make a good Shakespearean actor!) Eight is a much more natural bar length than five, the late, great Dave Brubeck notwithstanding.

[1] I'd be interested to hear from a classical musician what the correct term is!
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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby freezeblade » Thu Aug 28, 2014 4:04 pm UTC

orthogon wrote:[1] I'd be interested to hear from a classical musician what the correct term is!


the term you are looking for is Anacrusis, however, it's hardly used in the circles that I run in, which prefer the same term you use. There's quite a bit of crossover between the jazz circles and classical circles for my insterment family though (woodwind).
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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby drachefly » Thu Aug 28, 2014 4:54 pm UTC

Introbulus wrote:
San Fran Sam wrote:well, goes to show how old I am. I have heard of the TMNT but am absolutely clueless as to what their theme song is.


And it's not as if you don't know who they are, if that avatar of yours is any indication (unless I'm totally mistaken, it's from the comic isn't it?)


Actually, that's Usagi Yojimbo, who has his own series. They crossed over for, like, one issue. If you were an Usagi Yojimbo reader, it wasn't obvious that it was a crossover.

mathmannix wrote:Yes, but some Americans pronounce Moscow as "moss-koh", rather than the correct[citation needed] Americanization of "ma's cow" (which is how Moscow, Idaho is pronounced - it doesn't rhyme with its state.)


FWIW, Russians pronounce it 'mosk-VA'.

shokoshu wrote:Because I might pronounce a ^_^_^_^_ pattern as ^___^___:


I am capable of understanding this, but cannot unsee the Japanese-style winking smilies.

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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby Polixenes » Thu Aug 28, 2014 4:57 pm UTC

Vis the discussion of orange versus ornge...

Spotted Giant Flying Squirrel

..would not work for my Canadian wife who pronounces Squirrel with one syllable. Squirl.

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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby Mikeski » Thu Aug 28, 2014 10:03 pm UTC

Polixenes wrote:Vis the discussion of orange versus ornge...

Spotted Giant Flying Squirrel

..would not work for my Canadian wife who pronounces Squirrel with one syllable. Squirl.

That's a fairly common USAan pronunciation for it, too. And it's the proper British one, per the Oxford English dictionary.

Which makes "squirreled" (skwerld) a longer one-syllable word than the nine-letter ones mentioned earlier, like "strengths".

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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby Znirk » Fri Aug 29, 2014 7:43 am UTC

orthogon wrote:I'd be interested to hear from a classical musician what the correct term is!

Another term that's used is upbeat, but of course that's a little polysemic.

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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby orthogon » Fri Aug 29, 2014 9:17 am UTC

freezeblade wrote:
orthogon wrote:[1] I'd be interested to hear from a classical musician what the correct term is!


the term you are looking for is Anacrusis, however, it's hardly used in the circles that I run in, which prefer the same term you use. There's quite a bit of crossover between the jazz circles and classical circles for my insterment family though (woodwind).

Much obliged! I'm totally using that at the next jam session I go to! "ok, two bars in, watch out for the anacrusis..." (I'm also technically a woodwinder, but limited to the sax).
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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby ThemePark » Mon Sep 01, 2014 9:20 am UTC

drachefly wrote:
mathmannix wrote:Yes, but some Americans pronounce Moscow as "moss-koh", rather than the correct[citation needed] Americanization of "ma's cow" (which is how Moscow, Idaho is pronounced - it doesn't rhyme with its state.)


FWIW, Russians pronounce it 'mosk-VA'.

As do us Danes. And spell it the same.
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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby Klear » Mon Sep 01, 2014 11:23 am UTC

ThemePark wrote:As do us Danes. And spell it the same.


You spell it Москва? =P

But yeah, it's the same in Czech, and, I suspect, all other Slavic languages.

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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby keggerius » Wed Sep 03, 2014 6:50 am UTC

The very next thing I saw in my feed reader after this comic was a Diesel Sweeties comic entitled "Pumpkin Spice Illuminati". Made my whole day.

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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby Steve the Pocket » Wed Sep 24, 2014 7:00 pm UTC

Pumpkin Spice Illuminati
Pumpkin Spice Illuminati
Pumpkin Spice Illuminati
Judging coffee drinkers! Every fall!


:D
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Baige.

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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby DR6 » Sun Sep 28, 2014 7:57 am UTC

orthogon wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:Or if you'd like yet another earworm, consider "I am the very model of a modern major-general," which is iambic. Switch the words back and forth and it's clear the TMNT theme is trochaic.

But interestingly, it starts with what we jazzers call a "pickup"[1], i.e. a note before the first proper bar (=measure), such that the stressed syllables fall on the downbeats. From a musical standpoint, the distinction between trochees and iambs is less relevant; the stressed-unstressed sequence just goes on relentlessly and the difference is when you jump on and off; it's more about where the phrases begin and end than about the putative "feet" that make them up. Similarly, in my head the sequence carries on through the gaps between lines; so iambic pentameter is really a sequence of eight "beats" with three silent ones between the lines. (That's one reason why I wouldn't make a good Shakespearean actor!) Eight is a much more natural bar length than five, the late, great Dave Brubeck notwithstanding.

[1] I'd be interested to hear from a classical musician what the correct term is!



Interestingly enough, this is apparently how accentuation is analized in German poems too, at least AFAIK. Even Spanish only gives importance to the number of syllables and the accentuation of the last word, rather than the accentuation of all of them.

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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby orthogon » Wed May 06, 2015 1:22 pm UTC

The IET just sent me an e-mail entitled "Graphene-powered super-spiders" (the phrase doesn't appear in the article itself, sadly).

EDIT: The full subject was "Facebook driving up voter turnout; graphene-powered super-spiders". They were so close with the first headline as well: they just needed something like "boosting" instead of "driving up".
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby WolfieMagnes » Tue Jul 28, 2015 10:45 pm UTC

Klear wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:In case anyone is getting tired of the TNMT theme running through thwir heads, the following also by sheer fortuitous coincidence have the same stress pattern:

"Here's a llama there's a llama",
"And another little llama", and
"Fuzzy llama fluffy llama".


You MONSTER!


It gets worse.

See, when I first saw this comic, all I could think was "Do you want to build a snowman?"

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Re: 1412: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Postby mathmannix » Wed Jul 29, 2015 1:20 pm UTC

Steve the Pocket wrote:Pumpkin Spice Illuminati
Pumpkin Spice Illuminati
Pumpkin Spice Illuminati
Judging coffee drinkers! Every fall!


:D

"Every autumn" works better...
I hear velociraptor tastes like chicken.


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