1485: "Friendship"

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1485: "Friendship"

Postby P13808 » Wed Feb 11, 2015 5:12 am UTC

[http://xkcd.com/1485/]Image[/url]
title="The only other Wikipedia vandalism that I would feel zero remorse about is editing the article on active US militia groups to replace "militia" with "fanclub""[/quote]


Any bets on how long before the Wikipedia page is locked down?

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Re: 1485: "Friendship"

Postby ahammel » Wed Feb 11, 2015 5:13 am UTC

He/Him/His/Alex
God damn these electric sex pants!

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Re: 1485: "Friendship"

Postby Andries » Wed Feb 11, 2015 5:20 am UTC

It would be interesting to see if this gets taken up here

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Re: 1485: "Friendship"

Postby rhomboidal » Wed Feb 11, 2015 5:32 am UTC

Can we even use "friend" anymore without paying a royalty fee to Facebook?

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Re: 1485: "Friendship"

Postby Quicksilver » Wed Feb 11, 2015 5:34 am UTC

Friendship is Magic!

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Re: 1485: "Friendship"

Postby sotanaht » Wed Feb 11, 2015 5:40 am UTC

rhomboidal wrote:Can we even use "friend" anymore without paying a royalty fee to Facebook?

I'd be more concerned about the Bronys

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Re: 1485: "Friendship"

Postby Klear » Wed Feb 11, 2015 6:22 am UTC

Andries wrote:It would be interesting to see if this gets taken up here


talk page wrote:27 xkcd
28 xkcd
29 Semi-protect article?

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Re: 1485: "Friendship"

Postby 100_Percen% » Wed Feb 11, 2015 6:24 am UTC

I was bored and changed it a few times. It reverts back within 5 minutes.

P13808
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Re: 1485: "Friendship"

Postby P13808 » Wed Feb 11, 2015 7:02 am UTC

Well that took all of an hour. You go, xkcd readership.

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Re: 1485: "Friendship"

Postby redbird71 » Wed Feb 11, 2015 9:10 am UTC


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Re: 1485: "Friendship"

Postby Envelope Generator » Wed Feb 11, 2015 9:42 am UTC

"No, this is the Model M Keyboard Fanclub meeting. The Model M Leopard Militia meets in the other building. That's a cool tank btw!"
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Re: 1485: "Friendship"

Postby keithl » Wed Feb 11, 2015 9:48 am UTC

This comic was a really bad idea. Expect retaliation against the xkcd website by a subset of angry wikipedia fans with equally poor impulse control. My apologies, wikipedians, we are not all vandals here.

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Re: 1485: "Friendship"

Postby Klear » Wed Feb 11, 2015 10:36 am UTC

keithl wrote:This comic was a really bad idea. Expect retaliation against the xkcd website by a subset of angry wikipedia fans with equally poor impulse control. My apologies, wikipedians, we are not all vandals here.


As if this hasn't happened before.

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Re: 1485: "Friendship"

Postby KarenRei » Wed Feb 11, 2015 11:09 am UTC

Just googled for "list of militias united states". Google gave me this:

Militia (United States) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militia_(United_States)
5 List of fanclub in the United States. 5.1 U.S. Federal fanclub forces; 5.2 U.S. states' fanclub. 6 See also; 7 Footnotes; 8 References. 8.1 Historic; 8.2 Further ...


Love this comic ;)

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Re: 1485: "Friendship"

Postby Andries » Wed Feb 11, 2015 12:03 pm UTC

Trying to decode the cultural references. My impression has always been that the concept of 'bromance' has more than a bit of homophobia attached to it. I take this to be Randall's point?

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Re: 1485: "Friendship"

Postby Kit. » Wed Feb 11, 2015 1:27 pm UTC

keithl wrote:Expect retaliation against the xkcd website by a subset of angry wikipedia fans with equally poor impulse control.

"What are you waiting for? Bring it in!"

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Re: 1485: "Friendship"

Postby peewee_RotA » Wed Feb 11, 2015 2:10 pm UTC

http://zeliepa.net/misc/bromance/

You're welcome


....
And if you want to bromancify another article
http://zeliepa.net/misc/bromance/bromance
Last edited by peewee_RotA on Wed Feb 11, 2015 2:19 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 1485: "Friendship"

Postby orthogon » Wed Feb 11, 2015 2:14 pm UTC

I always misdeportmantify the word bromance into bromide+romance, bromide being the substance allegedly given to soldiers to suppress their sex drive. It makes me think of a sort of chaste, saccharin relationship or perhaps of a prim, bowdlerised romantic novel.
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

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Re: 1485: "Friendship"

Postby peewee_RotA » Wed Feb 11, 2015 2:44 pm UTC

orthogon wrote:I always misdeportmantify the word bromance into bromide+romance, bromide being the substance allegedly given to soldiers to suppress their sex drive. It makes me think of a sort of chaste, saccharin relationship or perhaps of a prim, bowdlerised romantic novel.


I think Home Star Runner beat you to the punch on that one:
http://www.hrwiki.org/wiki/bike_thief
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Re: 1485: "Friendship"

Postby moody7277 » Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:10 pm UTC

orthogon wrote:I always misdeportmantify the word bromance into bromide+romance, bromide being the substance allegedly given to soldiers to suppress their sex drive. It makes me think of a sort of chaste, saccharin relationship or perhaps of a prim, bowdlerised romantic novel.


Sounds a little like what Borges described as the perfect English friendship.
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Re: 1485: "Friendship"

Postby Andries » Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:11 pm UTC

... so my sense is that Randall is doing to 'bromance' what Liz Feldman did to 'gay marriage'

Image

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Re: 1485: "Friendship"

Postby orthogon » Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:27 pm UTC

Andries wrote:... what Liz Feldman did to 'gay marriage'

I salute the sentiment, but not sure I agree with the logic. Surely, if there's one thing that can legitimately be described as gay or straight, it's a relationship (of which a marriage is an example). She may as well say "I parked my red car, or as I prefer to call it, my car". Are adjectives in general to be shunned? I'd rather live in a world where the "gay" in "gay marriage" is an interesting piece of additional information, perhaps helping the listener to get the pronouns right.
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

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Re: 1485: "Friendship"

Postby Andries » Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:39 pm UTC

Firstly, I am not sure whether the 'gay' in 'gay marriage' allows you to get the pronouns right. How can you tell whether it involves 2 gay men, or 2 gay women?

Secondly the point is not that all adjectives are to be shunned. It is that in some contexts, adjectives are loaded. If we say 'marriage', everyone assumes it involves heterosexual people; and every marriage between same sex people is flagged by that word 'gay', emphasizing its unusual nature in a world where heterosexuality is still referred to as normal.

It's like Tony Morrison's essay on the way racial identity is handled in mainstream American fiction. "How do we know a character is white? Because we are not told he is white.", Whereas every other character's race is always marked.

So, to take up Liz's point again; in the future, she (and I) would want sexual orientation to be so irrelevant to the issue of marriage that it's as unnecessary to say 'gay' with reference to marriage.

It's not a point about logic or grammar. It's a point about politics.

In a society which is not homobhobic, 'gay marriage' would not be a thing. And neither would 'bromance'.

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Re: 1485: "Friendship"

Postby Andries » Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:48 pm UTC

orthogon wrote:I always misdeportmantify....


I like that word. I imagine Miss Portman was like Mrs Malaprop, but only with misleading word combinations.

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Re: 1485: "Friendship"

Postby Mishrak » Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:52 pm UTC

KarenRei wrote:Just googled for "list of militias united states". Google gave me this:

Militia (United States) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militia_(United_States)
5 List of fanclub in the United States. 5.1 U.S. Federal fanclub forces; 5.2 U.S. states' fanclub. 6 See also; 7 Footnotes; 8 References. 8.1 Historic; 8.2 Further ...


Love this comic ;)



That's hilarious. I'm a little sad I missed as it looks like it's been reverted already (probably immediately).

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Re: 1485: "Friendship"

Postby peewee_RotA » Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:53 pm UTC

Andries wrote:It's a point about politics.


...and thus the thread was lost forever. Well it was fun while it lasted. Have fun exploding with the politics of a completely unrelated subject.
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Re: 1485: "Friendship"

Postby Andries » Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:55 pm UTC

Unrelated? It seems to me to the the point of the comic

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Re: 1485: "Friendship"

Postby sevenperforce » Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:56 pm UTC

Andries wrote:Firstly, I am not sure whether the 'gay' in 'gay marriage' allows you to get the pronouns right. How can you tell whether it involves 2 gay men, or 2 gay women?

Secondly the point is not that all adjectives are to be shunned. It is that in some contexts, adjectives are loaded. If we say 'marriage', everyone assumes it involves heterosexual people; and every marriage between same sex people is flagged by that word 'gay', emphasizing its unusual nature in a world where heterosexuality is still referred to as normal.

It's like Tony Morrison's essay on the way racial identity is handled in mainstream American fiction. "How do we know a character is white? Because we are not told he is white.", Whereas every other character's race is always marked.

As far as pronouns are concerned, he probably meant a case where the gender of one individual is already known. But still, calling it "gay marriage" is superfluous because you receive the same information if a man refers to his husband or a woman refers to her wife.

The presumption that marriage is straight unless otherwise modified is definitely a problematic one, and one to be avoided. Your example from literature is quite good. There was a bit of a stink about the casting of JLaw as Katniss in The Hunger Games. Many literary critics (white and black) had assumed Katniss was a biracial woman of color because of the way her father was described. But Rue was explicitly identified as a woman of color, so the majority of readers assumed that Katniss couldn't be.

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Re: 1485: "Friendship"

Postby Andries » Wed Feb 11, 2015 4:01 pm UTC

Meanwhile, there's a whole lot of stuff around Militias that I, as a non-American, don't quite get. It's a form of cosplay, right?

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Re: 1485: "Friendship"

Postby orthogon » Wed Feb 11, 2015 4:02 pm UTC

Andries wrote:It's like Tony Morrison's essay on the way racial identity is handled in mainstream American fiction. "How do we know a character is white? Because we are not told he is white.", Whereas every other character's race is always marked.

Do we in fact know this? How do we know that we know this? If the author doesn't say the character is white, how do we know he is white? Don't African-American readers imagine unspecified characters as being black? I certainly project myself into a novel; I don't care that it's set in New York City: the character is still liable to have a British accent. This seems like a circular argument, but to be fair I haven't read Morrison's book.
So, to take up Liz's point again; in the future, she (and I) would want sexual orientation to be so irrelevant to the issue of marriage that it's as unnecessary to say 'gay' with reference to marriage.

I wholeheartedly agree: unnecessary, but in my world it would still be OK, if the speaker wanted to be specific.
In a society which is not homophobic, 'gay marriage' would not be a thing.

Sure it would, just like 'straight marriage'. Just like 'red car' is a thing. It just wouldn't be an issue.
It's not a point about logic or grammar. It's a point about politics.

Yes, I guess that's it, in the end. But I feel that politics should be backed up by logic, otherwise it's just polemic. I'm happy to scoff when the other side do it; but when people on my side of the argument say things that sound good but then succumb to fridge logic, I feel uncomfortable. That's the issue I had with Michael Moore. But I may be wrong about this. Perhaps we need need to fight irrationality with irrationality.
peewee_RotA wrote:
Andries wrote:It's a point about politics.

...and thus the thread was lost forever. Well it was fun while it lasted. Have fun exploding with the politics of a completely unrelated subject.

Sorry, I don't want to do that. I've got so much to say on the issue of male-male friendship, I don't even know where to start! I will gladly concede, if necessary, that I'm being needlessly pedantic and endangering the cause of equal rights.
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

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Re: 1485: "Friendship"

Postby Klear » Wed Feb 11, 2015 4:38 pm UTC

sevenperforce wrote:The presumption that marriage is straight unless otherwise modified is definitely a problematic one, and one to be avoided.


Of course, in a perfect world with no discrimination at all, there would still be a lot more straight marriages than gay ones. I don't think it's much of a problem that I assume people I meet are right-handed, until I learn otherwise.

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Re: 1485: "Friendship"

Postby sevenperforce » Wed Feb 11, 2015 4:51 pm UTC

Klear wrote:
sevenperforce wrote:The presumption that marriage is straight unless otherwise modified is definitely a problematic one, and one to be avoided.


Of course, in a perfect world with no discrimination at all, there would still be a lot more straight marriages than gay ones. I don't think it's much of a problem that I assume people I meet are right-handed, until I learn otherwise.

Well, being left-handed hasn't always been a neutral topic either...

left handed.jpg

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Re: 1485: "Friendship"

Postby Klear » Wed Feb 11, 2015 4:59 pm UTC

sevenperforce wrote:Well, being left-handed hasn't always been a neutral topic either...


They are kinda sinister...

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Re: 1485: "Friendship"

Postby Boilerplate » Wed Feb 11, 2015 5:59 pm UTC

Andries wrote:... so my sense is that Randall is doing to 'bromance' what Liz Feldman did to 'gay marriage'


Sometimes, and annoying made-up word is just an annoying made-up word, and not fodder for homophobic implications (another annoying made-up or misused word).

As far as Liz, her "gay marriage" meme begs the question of whether marriage is a certain relationship contract between two people of any sex, or only between two people of the opposite sex. So it is persuasive only to those who already agree, meaning it persuades no one. (Note that "begs the question" is a phrase that it typically misused, if you're collecting literary annoyances).

You can have "lunch," but if it consists of eating an ice cream cone at midnight, it isn't lunch no matter what you and your friends agree to call it.

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Re: 1485: "Friendship"

Postby Klear » Wed Feb 11, 2015 6:07 pm UTC

Boilerplate wrote:You can have "lunch," but if it consists of eating an ice cream cone at midnight, it isn't lunch no matter what you and your friends agree to call it.


Well, if I have a lot of friends...

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Re: 1485: "Friendship"

Postby Andries » Wed Feb 11, 2015 6:08 pm UTC

Boilerplate wrote:
Sometimes, and annoying made-up word is just an annoying made-up word
.



Well, that's an interpretation, I guess. But it's like taking the chili pepper out of jalapeno sauce. What would the point be? You'd be taking a smart, pointed comic and making it blah.


Boilerplate wrote: and not fodder for homophobic implications (another annoying made-up or misused word).


What's made up? "implications"? Or "homophobic"? I think they are pretty fine words, and useful too!
Last edited by Andries on Wed Feb 11, 2015 6:11 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 1485: "Friendship"

Postby trpmb6 » Wed Feb 11, 2015 6:10 pm UTC

Clearly you all are missing the mark here.

Today is national "Make a friend day" in the US.
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Re: 1485: "Friendship"

Postby orthogon » Wed Feb 11, 2015 6:15 pm UTC

trpmb6 wrote:Clearly you all are missing the mark here.

Today is national "Make a friend day" in the US.

Is that part of National Brotherhood Week?
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

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Re: 1485: "Friendship"

Postby rmsgrey » Wed Feb 11, 2015 6:19 pm UTC

Judging solely by the bromance talk page (what? read the actual article? madness!) the main argument for keeping the article is that bromance is a totally new concept that never existed until someone invented the word 20 years ago, and is a totally unique and novel product of our times...

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Re: 1485: "Friendship"

Postby ilduri » Wed Feb 11, 2015 6:21 pm UTC

sevenperforce wrote:Well, being left-handed hasn't always been a neutral topic either...

Unfortunately, to some people, it still isn't.
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