1606: "Five-Day Forecast"

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Re: 1606: "Five-Day Forecast"

Postby keithl » Fri Nov 20, 2015 7:43 pm UTC

Wooloomooloo wrote:Typical useless short-term forecasts. What if I need reliable data for the next five big bangs?!?
Then you should be using Planck scale temperature units, 1 TP = 1.416833e32 K . Today in Portland Oregon it is a chilly 1.95e-30 TP. If the Earth collides with a relativistic black hole this afternoon, the temperature may rise to a few μTP. In spite of the chill, I should bring some quark screen lotion.

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Re: 1606: "Five-Day Forecast"

Postby rmsgrey » Fri Nov 20, 2015 7:44 pm UTC

Vehemence wrote:Once our solar system consumes itself, days and years will cease having any meaning. Crap, I made myself sad.


Unlike hours, minutes and seconds, which clearly have obvious objective meanings? :P

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Re: 1606: "Five-Day Forecast"

Postby Flumble » Fri Nov 20, 2015 7:48 pm UTC

rmsgrey wrote:
Vehemence wrote:Once our solar system consumes itself, days and years will cease having any meaning. Crap, I made myself sad.


Unlike hours, minutes and seconds, which clearly have obvious objective meanings? :P

What about weeks? Surely weeks must have some meaning left in them. Poor weeks, lost in the endless void without any of its friends. :?

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Re: 1606: "Five-Day Forecast"

Postby mathmannix » Fri Nov 20, 2015 7:50 pm UTC

rmsgrey wrote:
Vehemence wrote:Once our solar system consumes itself, days and years will cease having any meaning. Crap, I made myself sad.


Unlike hours, minutes and seconds, which clearly have obvious objective meanings? :P


Well, seconds are defined based on the radioactive decay of cesium, right? No reason that should change anytime soon... and I'm pretty sure minutes and hours are defined as exactly 60 and 3600 seconds (respectively), not as approximate fractions of the day.
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Re: 1606: "Five-Day Forecast"

Postby orthogon » Fri Nov 20, 2015 8:28 pm UTC

mathmannix wrote:
rmsgrey wrote:
Vehemence wrote:Once our solar system consumes itself, days and years will cease having any meaning. Crap, I made myself sad.


Unlike hours, minutes and seconds, which clearly have obvious objective meanings? :P


Well, seconds are defined based on the radioactive decay of cesium, right? No reason that should change anytime soon... and I'm pretty sure minutes and hours are defined as exactly 60 and 3600 seconds (respectively), not as approximate fractions of the day.

What would we do if we colonised an Earth-like planet with an awkward rotational period, like 36 hours? Could we adjust to the long days, or would we have to stick to a terrestrial routine, day and night be damned?
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Re: 1606: "Five-Day Forecast"

Postby Pfhorrest » Fri Nov 20, 2015 8:42 pm UTC

keithl wrote:1.95e-30 TP

Why use a positive order of magnitude prefix and a negative order of magnitude together? Why not just say 1.95e-18 P, or better still just 1.95 aP?
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Re: 1606: "Five-Day Forecast"

Postby Flumble » Fri Nov 20, 2015 8:46 pm UTC

orthogon wrote:
mathmannix wrote:Well, seconds are defined based on the radioactive decay of cesium, right? No reason that should change anytime soon... and I'm pretty sure minutes and hours are defined as exactly 60 and 3600 seconds (respectively), not as approximate fractions of the day.

What would we do if we colonised an Earth-like planet with an awkward rotational period, like 36 hours? Could we adjust to the long days, or would we have to stick to a terrestrial routine, day and night be damned?

By that time "human" will probably mean a vat in a brain... or vice versa. So both ignoring the daily cycle and living by it should be trivial.

If the hypothetical is Mars with a 36-hour day, then we'll probably just cling to our circadian cycle. It's what researchers at the Poles and in Spaaaaace do too.

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Re: 1606: "Five-Day Forecast"

Postby orthogon » Fri Nov 20, 2015 9:07 pm UTC

Flumble wrote:
orthogon wrote:
mathmannix wrote:Well, seconds are defined based on the radioactive decay of cesium, right? No reason that should change anytime soon... and I'm pretty sure minutes and hours are defined as exactly 60 and 3600 seconds (respectively), not as approximate fractions of the day.

What would we do if we colonised an Earth-like planet with an awkward rotational period, like 36 hours? Could we adjust to the long days, or would we have to stick to a terrestrial routine, day and night be damned?

By that time "human" will probably mean a vat in a brain... or vice versa. So both ignoring the daily cycle and living by it should be trivial.

If the hypothetical is Mars with a 36-hour day, then we'll probably just cling to our circadian cycle. It's what researchers at the Poles and in Spaaaaace do too.

Well, yes, if the natural light-dark cycle is 12 months or 45 minutes, as for those people, then of course you just have to ignore it. That's why I was wondering about an "awkward" cycle: too close to terrestrial days to ignore, since then you'd have light days and dark days; but a bit too far away to simply shrink or stretch ourselves to fit the natural cycle.
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Re: 1606: "Five-Day Forecast"

Postby SuicideJunkie » Fri Nov 20, 2015 10:23 pm UTC

Simply colonize the 36 hour day planet with night owls, and let the morning people colonize the planets with 16 hour days.
Then everybody can be happy.

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Re: 1606: "Five-Day Forecast"

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Nov 20, 2015 10:58 pm UTC

SuicideJunkie wrote:Simply colonize the 36 hour day planet with night owls, and let the morning people colonize the planets with 16 hour days.
Then everybody can be happy.


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Re: 1606: "Five-Day Forecast"

Postby ucim » Fri Nov 20, 2015 11:31 pm UTC

rmsgrey wrote:Except that 0F isn't actually the equilibrium point of saturated NaCl brine/ice
Yeah, I guess knowing where I am, I should'a checked before posting. But it's "close enough for government work"TM. :)

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Re: 1606: "Five-Day Forecast"

Postby Vehemence » Sat Nov 21, 2015 12:50 am UTC

rmsgrey wrote:
Vehemence wrote:Once our solar system consumes itself, days and years will cease having any meaning. Crap, I made myself sad.


Unlike hours, minutes and seconds, which clearly have obvious objective meanings? :P

Hours, minutes, and seconds weren't time measurements used in the comic. However, seconds are a time period based on radioactive decay now, and minutes and hours can be defined as extensions thereof. Days and years, however, are measurements which are implicitly based on the rotation and revolution of the earth, respectively, and would lose all meaning and basis if Earth or Sol ceased to exist.

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Re: 1606: "Five-Day Forecast"

Postby rmsgrey » Sat Nov 21, 2015 2:44 am UTC

Vehemence wrote:
rmsgrey wrote:
Vehemence wrote:Once our solar system consumes itself, days and years will cease having any meaning. Crap, I made myself sad.


Unlike hours, minutes and seconds, which clearly have obvious objective meanings? :P

Hours, minutes, and seconds weren't time measurements used in the comic. However, seconds are a time period based on radioactive decay now, and minutes and hours can be defined as extensions thereof. Days and years, however, are measurements which are implicitly based on the rotation and revolution of the earth, respectively, and would lose all meaning and basis if Earth or Sol ceased to exist.


Days can also be defined as an extension of seconds/minutes/hours - 86400 seconds is a rounder number in base 12 (42000) or base 60 (O00), and is a convenient length for a supplementary unit.

Seconds may be defined in terms of radioactive decay nowadays (specifically in terms of the frequency of the radiation emitted by a particular state transition of a particular isotope) but that definition involves a "magic number" - a pseudo-arbitrary constant, chosen with great care to come as close as is practical to 1/86400 of the Earth's rotation period relative to the Sun. The definition of a second may be possible to apply without reference to local astronomical conditions, but it is just as based on the Earth's motion as the definition of a day - it just hides it better.

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Re: 1606: "Five-Day Forecast"

Postby Paradoxica » Sat Nov 21, 2015 3:06 am UTC

Vehemence wrote:Once our solar system consumes itself, days and years will cease having any meaning. Crap, I made myself sad.


Ten seconds after the last panel I got an existential crisis. I need to work on this.
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Re: 1606: "Five-Day Forecast"

Postby Plasma Mongoose » Sat Nov 21, 2015 5:31 am UTC

The last couple of forecasts should have being in Kelvin.
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Re: 1606: "Five-Day Forecast"

Postby Copper Bezel » Sat Nov 21, 2015 5:57 am UTC

No, I prefer it this way. Kelvin is what you actually use in real life to describe those kinds of temperatures, even in the US. The joke of describing the temperature of space on cosmological time scales in F° is brilliant in its own.
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Re: 1606: "Five-Day Forecast"

Postby gormster » Sat Nov 21, 2015 12:37 pm UTC

sotanaht wrote:Fahrenheit is perfectly viable for measuring ambient weather temperatures. The 0 and 100 are actually useful in that situation, with 0 being very cold, while 100 is very hot. Both require extra precautions but are completely survivable. Compare Celsius where 0 is a bit chilly and 100 is near-instantly lethal. Not as much granularity in the measurements either, with less than a 50 degree spread of commonly useful numbers and entire seasons of less than 10 degree variation.


sotanaht wrote: Compare Celsius where 0 is a bit chilly


sotanaht wrote:0 is a bit chilly


sotanaht wrote:a bit chilly


You know when people say "it's fucking freezing"? Yeah, that's 0°C. That's what "freezing" means. 0°C is abnormally cold for ~70% of the world's population.
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Re: 1606: "Five-Day Forecast"

Postby SFX » Sat Nov 21, 2015 12:46 pm UTC

sotanaht wrote:Fahrenheit is perfectly viable for measuring ambient weather temperatures. The 0 and 100 are actually useful in that situation, with 0 being very cold, while 100 is very hot. Both require extra precautions but are completely survivable. Compare Celsius where 0 is a bit chilly and 100 is near-instantly lethal.
Yep. 0 being where even brine will freeze, and a 100 your internal body temperature (or it was supposed to be when he made up the scale)

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Re: 1606: "Five-Day Forecast"

Postby speising » Sat Nov 21, 2015 1:56 pm UTC

I can't give a rat's fart for when brine freezes. I do care for temperatures when i have to watch out for slippery ice patches, though.

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Re: 1606: "Five-Day Forecast"

Postby SuicideJunkie » Sat Nov 21, 2015 3:06 pm UTC

gormster wrote:You know when people say "it's fucking freezing"? Yeah, that's 0°C. That's what "freezing" means. 0°C is abnormally cold for ~70% of the world's population.
I find the most inconvenient temperatures are in the 1-6 degree range.
Once you break through the zero point, the water stops moving around so much, and it allows the shorts and sandals combo to work again.
It is also nice that you can walk down the street with an ice cream cone and not worry about it melting if you take your time to enjoy it.

The streets tend to clear up too, making the commute easier; I haven't researched it but I suspect it is because many other drivers start deciding to not go places.

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Re: 1606: "Five-Day Forecast"

Postby armandoalvarez » Sat Nov 21, 2015 3:34 pm UTC

Of all our bad units in the U.S., Fahrenheit is the least bad.*

The true advantage of SI units is the ease of unit conversion. You don't have to think or get out a calculator to figure out how many meters are in 3.2km, whereas you would have to work to figure out how many feet are in 3.2 miles. But with temperature, there is almost no unit conversion. Other than physicists who use millidegrees when approaching absolute zero (who often use scientific notation and Kelvin anyway), there's almost no unit conversion in temperature.

The main other advantage cited for Celsius is that it's based on the temperature at which water boils and freezes. But that was only an advantage when the system was being created. If the meter had been based off of some stick that Joseph-Louis Lagrange found rather than one ten-millionth the distance from the equator to the North pole, the meter would be no less useful. Literally every phenomenon other than water boiling and freezing occurs at a temperature that must be looked up or memorized. Memorizing that water freezes at 32F isn't much more of a challenge than memorizing that body temperature is approximately 37C.

I'm not saying that the SI world should switch to Fahrenheit. I'm just saying it's a lot less of a problem than all our other units. And if you grew up in Fahrenheit, it's a comfortable system. You get used to statements like "highs will be in the mid-sixties," or "bundle up, lows will be in the 20s."

*Volume is probably the worst. So much unnecessary math to do unit conversion.

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Re: 1606: "Five-Day Forecast"

Postby Whizbang » Sat Nov 21, 2015 4:23 pm UTC

SuicideJunkie wrote:
gormster wrote:You know when people say "it's fucking freezing"? Yeah, that's 0°C. That's what "freezing" means. 0°C is abnormally cold for ~70% of the world's population.
I find the most inconvenient temperatures are in the 1-6 degree range.
Once you break through the zero point, the water stops moving around so much, and it allows the shorts and sandals combo to work again.
It is also nice that you can walk down the street with an ice cream cone and not worry about it melting if you take your time to enjoy it.

The streets tend to clear up too, making the commute easier; I haven't researched it but I suspect it is because many other drivers start deciding to not go places.


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Re: 1606: "Five-Day Forecast"

Postby rmsgrey » Sat Nov 21, 2015 6:13 pm UTC

SFX wrote:
sotanaht wrote:Fahrenheit is perfectly viable for measuring ambient weather temperatures. The 0 and 100 are actually useful in that situation, with 0 being very cold, while 100 is very hot. Both require extra precautions but are completely survivable. Compare Celsius where 0 is a bit chilly and 100 is near-instantly lethal.
Yep. 0 being where even brine will freeze, and a 100 your internal body temperature (or it was supposed to be when he made up the scale)


Except he went for 96 because it's easier to divide water-freezing-to-body-temperature into 64 equal segments than into 68 equal segments. Also, the scale was originally based on three reference points - some particular brine freezing at 0F, pure water freezing at 32F, and body temperature at 96F. The modern Fahrenheit scale is defined differently, as water freezing at 32F and boiling at 212F (a 180 degree difference).

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Re: 1606: "Five-Day Forecast"

Postby SFX » Sat Nov 21, 2015 7:55 pm UTC

rmsgrey wrote:Except he went for 96 because it's easier to divide water-freezing-to-body-temperature into 64 equal segments than into 68 equal segments. Also, the scale was originally based on three reference points - some particular brine freezing at 0F, pure water freezing at 32F, and body temperature at 96F. The modern Fahrenheit scale is defined differently, as water freezing at 32F and boiling at 212F (a 180 degree difference).
Sounds legit.

You know, once we get temperature into metric, we need to change time to metric as well. Then everything will be super easy to figure out.

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Re: 1606: "Five-Day Forecast"

Postby kelly_holden » Sat Nov 21, 2015 11:24 pm UTC

gormster wrote:You know when people say "it's fucking freezing"? Yeah, that's 0°C. That's what "freezing" means. 0°C is abnormally cold for ~70% of the world's population.

You live in Sydney. You know perfectly well that we start complaining it's "freezing" at about 15°C.
I dunno how correct your 70% is, but I suppose there is a lot of densely populated land at tropical and sub-tropical latitudes.

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Re: 1606: "Five-Day Forecast"

Postby Zacen299 » Sun Nov 22, 2015 12:32 am UTC

No "freezing" is -20°C with windchill and -30°C without seriously people do you not know that to be freezing you need to be able to easily get frostbite? :P Also for the record where I live last I checked it takes -40°C without windchill to actually close our schools which I both get and deeply terrifies me. What is wrong with where I live?

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Re: 1606: "Five-Day Forecast"

Postby SFX » Sun Nov 22, 2015 1:45 am UTC

Much of the worlds population has never experienced freezing.

Yet

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Re: 1606: "Five-Day Forecast"

Postby kelly_holden » Sun Nov 22, 2015 1:59 am UTC

Zacen299 wrote:No "freezing" is -20°C with windchill and -30°C without seriously people do you not know that to be freezing you need to be able to easily get frostbite? :P Also for the record where I live last I checked it takes -40°C without windchill to actually close our schools which I both get and deeply terrifies me. What is wrong with where I live?

Okay, yes, that's the point where the cold gets dangerous, as opposed to a bit uncomfortable to someone adapted to a warm temperate climate. On the other hand, I have to wonder how well you'd cope with the sort of days where the heat is dangerous. We had two days in a row above body temperature this week, and it's not even bloody summer yet.

SFX wrote:Much of the worlds population has never experienced freezing.

Yet

Yet?

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Re: 1606: "Five-Day Forecast"

Postby xtifr » Sun Nov 22, 2015 3:04 am UTC

I agree that 15°C is freezing. 0°C is an uninhabitable wasteland where only the completely insane ever venture. At that sort of temperature, frozen water can fall from the sky. Frozen! Water! You do realize that we're basically made of water, yes? No one with a lick of sense should ever want to be anywhere near a place where the stuff you're made from turns solid! :shock:
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Re: 1606: "Five-Day Forecast"

Postby Copper Bezel » Sun Nov 22, 2015 3:27 am UTC

I thought humans were made of brine?
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Re: 1606: "Five-Day Forecast"

Postby gmalivuk » Sun Nov 22, 2015 5:28 am UTC

Vehemence wrote:Once our solar system consumes itself, days and years will cease having any meaning. Crap, I made myself sad.

You're going to die in a few decades at most, regardless, so days and years already don't have any meaning.

(No, I made you sad.)
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Re: 1606: "Five-Day Forecast"

Postby Mikeski » Sun Nov 22, 2015 5:29 am UTC

xtifr wrote:No one with a lick of sense should ever want to be anywhere near a place where the stuff you're made from turns solid! :shock:
The stuff I'm made from is already a solid, though a fairly pliable one. Do you think of yourself as a liquid?

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Re: 1606: "Five-Day Forecast"

Postby Zacen299 » Sun Nov 22, 2015 8:54 am UTC

kelly_holden wrote:Okay, yes, that's the point where the cold gets dangerous, as opposed to a bit uncomfortable to someone adapted to a warm temperate climate. On the other hand, I have to wonder how well you'd cope with the sort of days where the heat is dangerous. We had two days in a row above body temperature this week, and it's not even bloody summer yet.


I'm gonna go with badly from what experience I do have. It gets to about 25°C in the summer and I can barely deal with that, I never plan on going further south than this, I know what I can deal with and anything above 25°C can stay far far away from me.

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Re: 1606: "Five-Day Forecast"

Postby SFX » Sun Nov 22, 2015 2:21 pm UTC

The Moomin wrote:Image


Adding a 5 decade and five century forecast would have made it better. Or worse. It's hard to really say.

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Re: 1606: "Five-Day Forecast"

Postby CharlieP » Mon Nov 23, 2015 9:18 am UTC

SFX wrote:You know, once we get temperature into metric, we need to change time to metric as well.


Can you explain what you actually mean by this? Given that, you know, the second is a base unit of SI...
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Re: 1606: "Five-Day Forecast"

Postby SFX » Mon Nov 23, 2015 11:54 am UTC

CharlieP wrote:
SFX wrote:You know, once we get temperature into metric, we need to change time to metric as well.


Can you explain what you actually mean by this? Given that, you know, the second is a base unit of SI...


SI contains non metric units, like the degree, minute and second of arc, and of course second, minute, hour, day, week, month and year. You can't actually make time metric, nor would anyone agree to it, because it would be insane.

In other words, I was joking.
Last edited by SFX on Mon Nov 23, 2015 12:03 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 1606: "Five-Day Forecast"

Postby SFX » Mon Nov 23, 2015 12:02 pm UTC

kelly_holden wrote:Yet?


Yet.

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Re: 1606: "Five-Day Forecast"

Postby Diadem » Mon Nov 23, 2015 1:05 pm UTC

SFX wrote:You can't actually make time metric, nor would anyone agree to it, because it would be insane.

Metric time makes perfect sense. What doesn't make sense is basing it on the second. Define a metric second as 1/100,000 of a day. So 1 metric second is 0.864 seconds. That's a convenient interval. A thousand metric seconds will be about a quarter of an hour, which is also a nice length of time for many purposes. You will still have an inconvenient conversion from days to years which can't be escaped, but the system would overall be a lot simpler than it is now.

I highly doubt it's worth the conversion cost, switching to metric time would be insanely expensive. But that's another story.
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Re: 1606: "Five-Day Forecast"

Postby Neil_Boekend » Mon Nov 23, 2015 1:06 pm UTC

Zacen299 wrote:
kelly_holden wrote:Okay, yes, that's the point where the cold gets dangerous, as opposed to a bit uncomfortable to someone adapted to a warm temperate climate. On the other hand, I have to wonder how well you'd cope with the sort of days where the heat is dangerous. We had two days in a row above body temperature this week, and it's not even bloody summer yet.


I'm gonna go with badly from what experience I do have. It gets to about 25°C in the summer and I can barely deal with that, I never plan on going further south than this, I know what I can deal with and anything above 25°C can stay far far away from me.

We had a training where one of the examples used was a conference on a tropical island in 35°C heat. It was about deciding who could go and who couldn't. I was the only one in a group of 40 that simply said I wouldn't want to go.
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Re: 1606: "Five-Day Forecast"

Postby puppysized » Mon Nov 23, 2015 1:16 pm UTC

I have always thought it's useful that -40°C=-40°F. A winter or two ago, we hit that (if you include windchill). To add my opinion in, it's below freezing outside right now, which isn't really unpleasant for me. The air tastes much more refreshing when it's cold, I like 0°C.


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