1672: "Women on 20s"

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1672: "Women on 20s"

Postby @maniexx » Mon Apr 25, 2016 1:26 pm UTC

Image

Title text: I get that there are security reasons for the schedule, but this is like the ONE problem we have where the right answer is both easy and straightforward. If we can't figure it out, maybe we should just give up and just replace all the portraits on the bills with that weird pyramid eye thing.


I like what the EU has done with our currency. Just some made up bridges. At least there's no way to make that political.

Also, it would be quite fun if Martin Shkreli did end up on currency.
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Re: 1672: "Women on 20s"

Postby mvpxiv » Mon Apr 25, 2016 1:36 pm UTC

Being not in the USA I don't quite get the reference, could somebody link to what it refers to?

Thanks!

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Re: 1672: "Women on 20s"

Postby cellocgw » Mon Apr 25, 2016 1:48 pm UTC

While we're at it, why not modify the $100 bill with the following text:

For use by drug dealers and the CIA Bribe Team only
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Re: 1672: "Women on 20s"

Postby Keyman » Mon Apr 25, 2016 2:17 pm UTC

mvpxiv wrote:Being not in the USA I don't quite get the reference, could somebody link to what it refers to?

Thanks!
We're designing some new money, or redesigning some existing money, and, as we usually do, we're making it a referendum, and then squabbling over the results. Here's kinds of a summary - though still lots of historical and pop-cultural references that may not be totally clear. http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/21/us/wo ... .html?_r=0

I think we're lucky the new $20 bill doesn't feature Boaty McBoatface!
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Re: 1672: "Women on 20s"

Postby cryptoengineer » Mon Apr 25, 2016 2:34 pm UTC

[Disclaimer: Not my field of study, but in interested amatuer.]

Modifying the images is a security issue, for a couple reasons.

1. Optical bill recognition machines may need to be altered.

2. The images actually contain embedded machine-recognizable information, which is used by
color copiers to know 'don't copy this'.

If you look at a current $20, the obverse (the side with the White House) shows a pattern of
very small, faint '20"s printed all over the blank areas in yellow ink. They actually fall into a
specific pattern which is recognized by color copiers and some image editing software. The
'0's form what is called a EURion Constellation

The pattern is used by many countries bills, often incorporated into the image, for example as a flock of birds, or
a pattern of musical notes.

As a result, you can't just make arbitrary image changes with cut-and-paste.

[Actually, I'd be cool with the Eye in the Pyramid]

CE

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Re: 1672: "Women on 20s"

Postby HES » Mon Apr 25, 2016 2:42 pm UTC

Interesting timing, in that we Brits have a similar women-on-banknotes argument going on. We're gaining one, but losing another, so will remain at 1/5.
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Re: 1672: "Women on 20s"

Postby Quizatzhaderac » Mon Apr 25, 2016 2:59 pm UTC

mvpxiv wrote:Being not in the USA I don't quite get the reference, could somebody link to what it refers to?

Thanks!
The "Trail of Tears" was a forced relocation of Native Americans in which ten thousand people died from exposure, starvation, and other affects of the relocation. The event was also exceptional in that the Supreme Court had ruled the relocation unlawful.

Andrew Jackson (aka King Andrew) was a president who greatly expanded the powers of the US executive. He is considered especially responsible for the trail of tears. He is on the US $20 bill, which is the bills ATMs most frequently dispense.

Harriet Tubman was an escaped slave who spend her free life helping other slaves escape.
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Re: 1672: "Women on 20s"

Postby Mokurai » Mon Apr 25, 2016 3:26 pm UTC

What are these facts doing here?! Where is my XKCD comic for today?

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Re: 1672: "Women on 20s"

Postby Lazar » Mon Apr 25, 2016 3:38 pm UTC

@maniexx wrote:I like what the EU has done with our currency. Just some made up bridges.

They're real bridges now.
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Re: 1672: "Women on 20s"

Postby Steve the Pocket » Mon Apr 25, 2016 4:30 pm UTC

Todd in the Shadows (Channel Awesome's music critic) had a great comeback to the "Jackson on the back" bullshit: He said it was like that episode of South Park where the town flag was redesigned from a picture of white people lynching a black man to a multi-ethnic group of people lynching a black man.
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Re: 1672: "Women on 20s"

Postby The Moomin » Mon Apr 25, 2016 4:37 pm UTC

Lazar wrote:
@maniexx wrote:I like what the EU has done with our currency. Just some made up bridges.

They're real bridges now.


So does that make the town that built them a forgery as it is replicating banknotes?
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Re: 1672: "Women on 20s"

Postby trpmb6 » Mon Apr 25, 2016 4:39 pm UTC

This is why I've always advocated that we remove people from our currency and names from our buildings. Both just deify people, for better or worse. Best to just do away with portraits completely. You'll never make everyone happy. In fact, my proposal probably infuriates the Pro-Portrait on American Currency movement. :Sigh:
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Re: 1672: "Women on 20s"

Postby Netreker0 » Mon Apr 25, 2016 5:04 pm UTC

Quizatzhaderac wrote:
mvpxiv wrote:Being not in the USA I don't quite get the reference, could somebody link to what it refers to?

Thanks!
The "Trail of Tears" was a forced relocation of Native Americans in which ten thousand people died from exposure, starvation, and other affects of the relocation. The event was also exceptional in that the Supreme Court had ruled the relocation unlawful.

Andrew Jackson (aka King Andrew) was a president who greatly expanded the powers of the US executive. He is considered especially responsible for the trail of tears. He is on the US $20 bill, which is the bills ATMs most frequently dispense.

Harriet Tubman was an escaped slave who spend her free life helping other slaves escape.


I'm torn. Andrew Jackson was a huge (and hugely effective) statist as you mention, an imperialistic expansionist, and probably something of a racist. (Not sure if he seemed exceptionally racist compared to most guys at the pub back then, but non-whites didn't fare too well under his policies. Then again, you could chalk that up to the whole expansionism thing, too.)

On the other hand, Andrew Jackson was a stone cold badass. The man won a duel against a superior marksman by devising the "let him shoot first and miss so I can take my time aiming strategy." Naturally, no plan survives first contact with the enemy, but Jackson still won by employing the "survive getting shot first, then shoot him to death" strategy. Then there was the time where, as President, he survived an assassination attempt and had to be pulled off the would be assassin as he tried to beat him to death with his cane. (Another badass fact, he carried a cane.) There's no scientific evidence for this assertion, but I firmly believe the assassin's guns both misfired because they were afraid of Andrew Jackson. Also, he threw raging cheese parties at the White House.

Then again, the same could be said for Harriet Tubman.

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Re: 1672: "Women on 20s"

Postby Flumble » Mon Apr 25, 2016 5:07 pm UTC

The Moomin wrote:
Lazar wrote:
@maniexx wrote:I like what the EU has done with our currency. Just some made up bridges.

They're real bridges now.


So does that make the town that built them a forgery as it is replicating banknotes?

Well, they don't have the holographic features or those EURions mentioned earlier or a denomination or currency. Also they're big and made of brick and metal.

I guess, when you look at it carefully, it's less of a forgery than a chair strapped to a bird. (obviously with the chair shouting that it's a €20 note)

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Re: 1672: "Women on 20s"

Postby keithl » Mon Apr 25, 2016 5:24 pm UTC

We should put pictures of body parts on US currency. That will encourage young people to go to medical school, and accumulate huge debt in order to work long hours for surprisingly low wages taking care of aging baby boomers like myself.

We can replace the picture of Andrew Jackson with a hemorrhoidal anus, since as others have noted he was a "bad ass".

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Re: 1672: "Women on 20s"

Postby Envelope Generator » Mon Apr 25, 2016 5:55 pm UTC

mvpxiv wrote:Being not in the USA I don't quite get the reference, could somebody link to what it refers to?

Thanks!


The comic title tied my brain in a knot for a moment before I had to give up and look at the comic itself. "Women on... their twenties? Women on the 2020's? Randall, what are you in?"
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Re: 1672: "Women on 20s"

Postby Mikeski » Mon Apr 25, 2016 6:07 pm UTC

It's a great idea to replace the portrait of our first Democratic president, a white man who owned hundreds of slaves, with a black Republican woman veteran, who's also a Christian saint.

(This is how you sort out people who are only in it for the identity politics.)

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Re: 1672: "Women on 20s"

Postby Mithiwithi » Mon Apr 25, 2016 6:23 pm UTC

cryptoengineer wrote:[Actually, I'd be cool with the Eye in the Pyramid]

CE


I would too, if only to screw with all the Illuminati conspiracy theorists. :D

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Re: 1672: "Women on 20s"

Postby ShadedKnight » Mon Apr 25, 2016 6:33 pm UTC

Mithiwithi wrote:
cryptoengineer wrote:[Actually, I'd be cool with the Eye in the Pyramid]

CE


I would too, if only to screw with all the Illuminati conspiracy theorists. :D


Agreed, but even if we showed a public interest in having the Eye on the face of every bill, how would we go about making sure that happens?

If we couldn't get Boaty McBoatface, what chance do we have here?

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Re: 1672: "Women on 20s"

Postby shinksma » Mon Apr 25, 2016 6:45 pm UTC

Delurking, might be my second or third post here...

Anyway, I had heard about the recent announcement of Harriet Tubman replacing Andrew Jackson on the $20 bill, and understood the general consensus was "good!".

As i read the xkcd comic, I was assuming that all these other weird shenanigans about Hamilton and the play, and the $10 bill and the mural, and that Jackson would still be on the $20 bill just the other side, were all just stupid jokes about government being bad at decisions. But no...that is exactly how it went down.

Sigh...

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Re: 1672: "Women on 20s"

Postby mosc » Mon Apr 25, 2016 6:48 pm UTC

I think something that's missed is if we were to list a singular individual who's face should be featured on a piece of paper from the US Treasury, it should be Alexander Hamilton. He has the most to do with how our banking system works of any man ever and is arguably the most historically significant non-president in american history.

I also find it hard to hate on Washington and Lincoln. That only leaves Jackson and Franklin on our major bills. Neither really belong, though Franklin is beloved in many ways and is now synonymous with the $100 bill. Honestly, I'm not sure I'd go with Tubman. I'd prefer Martin Luther King Jr. who to me along with the already mentioned Hamilton, Washington, and Lincoln are central figures in american morality well beyond just american history.
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Re: 1672: "Women on 20s"

Postby doogly » Mon Apr 25, 2016 7:17 pm UTC

Washington did presume to own people. Kind of a DQ in my book, but you know me, pretty out there leftist.
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Re: 1672: "Women on 20s"

Postby gmalivuk » Mon Apr 25, 2016 7:45 pm UTC

doogly wrote:Washington did presume to own people. Kind of a DQ in my book, but you know me, pretty out there leftist.
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Re: 1672: "Women on 20s"

Postby Tyndmyr » Mon Apr 25, 2016 7:53 pm UTC

doogly wrote:Washington did presume to own people. Kind of a DQ in my book, but you know me, pretty out there leftist.


Eh, still, strong historical premise for leaving him on the bill. Though, having him on the quarter as well as a dollar does seem like a bit much. Doubling up seems unnecessary given how many good historical candidates there are.

But yeah, Tubman on the $20 does seem super straightforward. Win/win, pretty much universal public support from what I can see. Sure, if you look hard enough, SOMEONE will grumble about any change, because curmedgeons are a thing, but overall, Jackson doesn't seem super popular. And wasn't he ANTI bank?

I see no point with screwing around with faces on the back of the bill. That seems like needless complication.

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Re: 1672: "Women on 20s"

Postby dtilque » Mon Apr 25, 2016 8:12 pm UTC

@maniexx wrote:I like what the EU has done with our currency. Just some made up bridges. At least there's no way to make that political.


You underestimate the ability of Americans to politicize anything!

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Re: 1672: "Women on 20s"

Postby Copper Bezel » Mon Apr 25, 2016 8:27 pm UTC

True point. Infrastructure investments are considered a liberal talking point, and bridges are the go-to illustration because we have a lot of poorly serviced bridges, even aside from the "bridge to nowhere" meme (a project whose proponents were actually conservatives, but conservatives with local interest, making it the go-to example of "pork barrel spending", disproportionate federal funding for pet local projects.)
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Re: 1672: "Women on 20s"

Postby The Moomin » Mon Apr 25, 2016 8:31 pm UTC

Flumble wrote:
The Moomin wrote:
Lazar wrote:
@maniexx wrote:I like what the EU has done with our currency. Just some made up bridges.

They're real bridges now.


So does that make the town that built them a forgery as it is replicating banknotes?

Well, they don't have the holographic features or those EURions mentioned earlier or a denomination or currency. Also they're big and made of brick and metal.

I guess, when you look at it carefully, it's less of a forgery than a chair strapped to a bird. (obviously with the chair shouting that it's a €20 note)


What? DAMMIT. Not again.

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Re: 1672: "Women on 20s"

Postby doogly » Mon Apr 25, 2016 8:32 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
doogly wrote:Washington did presume to own people. Kind of a DQ in my book, but you know me, pretty out there leftist.


Eh, still, strong historical premise for leaving him on the bill.

Yes, a very terrible history which should be torn down with pitchforks and torches.
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Re: 1672: "Women on 20s"

Postby Copper Bezel » Mon Apr 25, 2016 8:41 pm UTC

Unfortunately, time travel seems likely to be theoretically impossible.
So much depends upon a red wheel barrow (>= XXII) but it is not going to be installed.

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Re: 1672: "Women on 20s"

Postby Epod » Mon Apr 25, 2016 9:13 pm UTC

One other irony worth noting is that Andrew Jackson HATED the idea of a central national bank. The semi-official national bank at the time, called the "Bank of The United States" was due to have its charter renewed during the Jackson presidency. Jackson ordered all the federal government's money withdrawn from that bank and moved elsewhere. When a group of bankers called on him about the charter, he famously said, "You are a den of vipers and thieves. I intend to rout you out, and by the eternal God, I will rout you out." He would be pissed to know that he was destined to appear on a banknote issued by a subsequent semi-official bank.

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Re: 1672: "Women on 20s"

Postby Muswell » Mon Apr 25, 2016 10:19 pm UTC

HES wrote:Interesting timing, in that we Brits have a similar women-on-banknotes argument going on. We're gaining one, but losing another, so will remain at 1/5.


But if you look at the *other side* of all our banknotes (other than, for some reason I'm not sure of, the Guernsey £1 note), the ratio gets skewed a bit...

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Re: 1672: "Women on 20s"

Postby Omegaman » Mon Apr 25, 2016 10:38 pm UTC

Epod wrote:... he famously said, "You are a den of vipers and thieves. I intend to rout you out, and by the eternal God, I will rout you out."

I'll admit, that's a pretty awesome quote. Ok, so another mark in the bad ass column, but he was still a bit of a genocidal autocrat. I've never understood why he's on any of our currency or mentioned for anything more than being a disruptive influence in historical politics with a bit of a Chuck Noris swagger.

Now that I'm reading it again, this whole Hamilton musical thing really does make it sound like suddenly Hamilton has more fans than Jackson-- but where are all these Jackson fans? Is Team Jackson just lurking in the shadows behind the man behind the man?

What are the security arguments for not being able to issue bills in a different order? I'm kind of with Randal on this one-- this seems like an easy problem to solve...

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Re: 1672: "Women on 20s"

Postby armandoalvarez » Mon Apr 25, 2016 10:51 pm UTC

Who in their right mind at the Treasury came up with the idea of putting Jackson on the back? That's the most baffling part of this. I can see why they said, "Well the ten redesign is first so we're going to replace Hamilton," and I can understand how the backlash to that leads to the proposal to have them share the ten (which was also bizarre).

But why keep Jackson on the back of the twenty? Who is pushing for this? What's the rationale?

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Re: 1672: "Women on 20s"

Postby Heimhenge » Mon Apr 25, 2016 11:07 pm UTC

cryptoengineer wrote:[Disclaimer: Not my field of study, but in interested amatuer.]

Modifying the images is a security issue, for a couple reasons.

1. Optical bill recognition machines may need to be altered.

2. The images actually contain embedded machine-recognizable information, which is used by
color copiers to know 'don't copy this'.

If you look at a current $20, the obverse (the side with the White House) shows a pattern of
very small, faint '20"s printed all over the blank areas in yellow ink. They actually fall into a
specific pattern which is recognized by color copiers and some image editing software. The
'0's form what is called a EURion Constellation

The pattern is used by many countries bills, often incorporated into the image, for example as a flock of birds, or
a pattern of musical notes.

As a result, you can't just make arbitrary image changes with cut-and-paste.

[Actually, I'd be cool with the Eye in the Pyramid]

CE


Not my field either, but I can tell you this. My sister works for a graphic design company in Milwaukee (WI, US). When they installed the new high-tech printer/scanner/copier everyone at the company had to sit through a lecture by the installer. He explained that if anyone ever tried to copy or scan currency with the machine it would shut down and lock up. If that happened, they'd have to call the local Secret Service office to have some agent come in to reset the machine. Followed by lots of questions.

Don't know if that was just a scare tactic, or if it had to do with those EURion codes you mentioned. She tells me everyone is curious about what would really happen, but they're all too paranoid to actually try it.

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This explains it

Postby TrueNarnian » Mon Apr 25, 2016 11:14 pm UTC

Image

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Re: 1672: "Women on 20s"

Postby Soupspoon » Mon Apr 25, 2016 11:51 pm UTC

HES wrote:Interesting timing, in that we Brits have a similar women-on-banknotes argument going on. We're gaining one, but losing another, so will remain at 1/5.
Given that below 20% of elegible historic figures were women, for an original contemporary bias throughout British history that we can't do anything about, I think it's a decent ratio for practicality.

Not that I think it's a fuss over nothing (0/5 is not good, and it's right to be pointed out as significantly anomolous) but we can only do so much for each overlooked 'minority' who have so few candidates... Things are changing, though, so it is probable that a survey of historical figures one hundred years or so hence shall have become more representative of actual demographics. (Leaving the problem of how to balance the 2:3 split (alternate it?) while acomodating all significant ethnic groups to a fair degree, etc, and all the rest of the metrics one could consider...)

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Re: 1672: "Women on 20s"

Postby da Doctah » Tue Apr 26, 2016 12:33 am UTC

Soupspoon wrote:]Given that below 20% of elegible historic figures were women


It's even lower than that here in the US, where the canonical term for paper currency is "dead presidents". They've already violated that rule for Hamilton and Franklin. (One store even used precisely those two portraits in newspaper ads for a Presidents Day Sale.)

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Re: 1672: "Women on 20s"

Postby BlitzGirl » Tue Apr 26, 2016 12:50 am UTC

Yeah, I'm sick of dead people on our currency. Let's replace those portraits with cute little puppies.

Soupspoon wrote:Given that below 20% of elegible historic figures were women, for an original contemporary bias throughout British history that we can't do anything about, I think it's a decent ratio for practicality.

Ugh, I have a lot of problems with that sentence. But I think I'll just stick with imagining adorable mutt George Woofington on the dollar bill.
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Re: 1672: "Women on 20s"

Postby addams » Tue Apr 26, 2016 1:29 am UTC

ShadedKnight wrote:If we couldn't get Boaty McBoatface, what chance do we have here?

oh....
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/boaty ... 42551.html

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Re: 1672: "Women on 20s"

Postby cyanyoshi » Tue Apr 26, 2016 1:40 am UTC

armandoalvarez wrote:Who in their right mind at the Treasury came up with the idea of putting Jackson on the back? That's the most baffling part of this. I can see why they said, "Well the ten redesign is first so we're going to replace Hamilton," and I can understand how the backlash to that leads to the proposal to have them share the ten (which was also bizarre).

But why keep Jackson on the back of the twenty? Who is pushing for this? What's the rationale?


Maybe it has something to do with Jackson being the only president that saw the national debt fall to zero. Not that it had much to do with his monetary aptitude, but still. I don't get why he will be on the back of the $20 bill either. I'd rather see Polk or Roosevelt (either one) or pretty much anybody else.

...By the way, can we please finally stop making pennies? Like, seriously. Why on earth hasn't that been done already?
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