1708: "Dehydration"

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Re: 1708: "Dehydration"

Postby Tyndmyr » Mon Jul 25, 2016 3:28 pm UTC

orthogon wrote:That a sleep cycle is about 90 minutes appears to be fairly uncontroversial, but multiplying this up to arrive at the correct duration for a whole night's sleep seems suspect. Presumably there's some variation amongst individuals, and a 6% change in the 90 minutes would turn the nominal 7.5 hours into anything from 7 to 8 hours. Added to that, the hypnogram on the comprehensive Wikipedia page on sleep suggests variation in the length and structure of sleep cycles even during one sleep episode in one individual. So whilst I think we can conclude that 45 minutes is probably a pessimal length of sleep for most people, without taking an EEG it's hard to draw any conclusions for exactly how long we should sleep at night.

The whole topic is absolutely fascinating, anyway.


Fitbit activity monitors are decent for tracking sleep cycles, in my experience. Given maybe a weeks data, it should be pretty obvious how long your cycles are, and give you a pretty good idea of when you should awake. It may not be *exactly* the same every day, but as gm says, a good estimate is enough for general practices.

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Re: 1708: "Dehydration"

Postby Eebster the Great » Mon Jul 25, 2016 3:36 pm UTC

solune wrote:
Eebster the Great wrote:The idea that urine gets clearer when it is wetter is true. The idea that many people can actually apply this truism in any practically useful way does not appear to be true, though there are exceptions.


Let me see if I understand the respective positions:

Thirparty is stating that "If your urine is dark yellow you should drink a glass of water" is a good rule of thumb.
-> it is good enough that if everyone used it, the average person would get healthier.

Eebster the Great is stating that: If your urine is dark yellow, there's a good probability that something other than dehydration is causing it.

Could you quantify your position ? Is it 70% of people who should not use the rule of thumb at all ? more ? less ?

More precisely here's the problem for which I want to do a Bayesian analysis:
1) I've observed my average pee to be light yellow (a term known only to me, but so is my observation)
2) I do not take food supplements of any kind and do not have any known medical condition
3) I observe my latest pee to be dark yellow
->What is the probability that my water need is less than a large glass of water ?

Are you thirsty? Then you should probably drink something. If not, then you don't need to worry about it. You could still drink if you like, or you could not.

My point was that the whole question in the first place was bad. The idea that we need to monitor our hydration externally is just wrong. For the vast majority of people the vast majority of the time, we just need to drink when we're thirsty. Tips like "drink a little more when you're sick" are helpful, but comparing your piss to a color chart is just not going to help. It's not an accurate or responsive measurement, and is generally both much less accurate and much less responsive than the sensation of thirst.

There are of course some exceptions, but "rules of thumb" should not be developed specifically for exceptional cases.

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Re: 1708: "Dehydration"

Postby SuicideJunkie » Mon Jul 25, 2016 8:03 pm UTC

I find it perplexing, but as far as I can tell, the women in my family do not know when they are hungry, never mind thirsty. Apparently it is a thing.

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Re: 1708: "Dehydration"

Postby solune » Tue Jul 26, 2016 7:56 am UTC

Eebster the Great wrote:Are you thirsty? Then you should probably drink something. If not, then you don't need to worry about it. You could still drink if you like, or you could not.


The initial reason for the comic is that a lot of doctors, including the French academy of medicine, have decided that the thirst mechanism is not working on some people, especially the young and the old ; And that a pre-computed dose of water is more efficient than relying on thirst alone.
Now, I'm neither old nor very young but I've found my sense of thirst lacking in the following: it does not take my mind out of a long gaming session, and it is sometimes difficult to distinguish it from hunger, tiredness or sugar addiction.

I should also mention that, as an autist, it is commonplace for me to replace common instinctive skills (emotion recognition, smiling, walking) with conscious algorithms.

Also influencing my position: a family history of kidney stones, a condition which according to wikipedia affects one person per thousand per year.

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Eebster the Great
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Re: 1708: "Dehydration"

Postby Eebster the Great » Tue Jul 26, 2016 8:59 am UTC

That would, to me, sound like an exception rather than a rule. Regardless, if you are so engrossed in gaming you forget to feel thirsty, how can you possibly remember to monitor your urine? This is honestly something I can't understand.

And again, remember that if your urine is dark, at best that means you were dehydrated hours ago.

I also simply don't buy this idea that if you're "thirsty but not aware that you're thirsty" (if that isn't a contradiction), you are in some sort of danger. I can't find any evidence that "dehydration" so mild an ordinary person couldn't even tell they were thirsty has any meaningful symptoms or increases risk of anything. There are a lot of claims out there that if you don't constantly keep tabs on your water consumption, it will affect your "energy" or "mood" or whatever, but no actual studies. That's kind of what this comic was talking about.

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Re: 1708: "Dehydration"

Postby Soupspoon » Tue Jul 26, 2016 12:24 pm UTC

Eebster the Great wrote:That would, to me, sound like an exception rather than a rule. Regardless, if you are so engrossed in gaming you forget to feel thirsty, how can you possibly remember to monitor your urine? This is honestly something I can't understand.

Automate the process using the device that already powers your gaming machine!

(Note: as described, there are some obvious problems with that thing, probably overlooked by that site. ;) )

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Re: 1708: "Dehydration"

Postby Neil_Boekend » Tue Jul 26, 2016 12:30 pm UTC

Of course, when drinking all that water you should be aware of the dihydrogenmonoxide risks:
Wikipedia wrote:Dihydrogen monoxide:
    *is also known as hydroxyl acid, and is the major component of acid rain.
    *contributes to the "greenhouse effect".
    *may cause severe burns.
    *contributes to the erosion of our natural landscape.
    *accelerates corrosion and rusting of many metals.
    *may cause electrical failures and decreased effectiveness of automobile brakes.
    *has been found in excised tumors of terminal cancer patients.
Despite the danger, dihydrogen monoxide is often used:
    *as an industrial solvent and coolant.
    *in nuclear power plants.
    *in the production of styrofoam.
    *as a fire retardant.
    *in many forms of cruel animal research.
    *in the distribution of pesticides. Even after washing, produce remains contaminated by this chemical.
    *as an additive in certain "junk-foods" and other food products.
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Re: 1708: "Dehydration"

Postby Soupspoon » Tue Jul 26, 2016 12:56 pm UTC

There's also "nilanol". Chemically, it lies in the strict sequence of ethanol, then methanol, then nilanol, and you of course know the problems with meths as part or whole fraction of your chosen tipple, so you can only imagine what nilanol does. Worryingly, it is found in most beers, wines and spirits in easily detectable amounts, and even in low-alcohol and supposed 'non-alcoholic' alternatives...

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Re: 1708: "Dehydration"

Postby Neil_Boekend » Tue Jul 26, 2016 1:02 pm UTC

Soupspoon wrote:There's also "nilanol". Chemically, it lies in the strict sequence of ethanol, then methanol, then nilanol, and you of course know the problems with meths as part or whole fraction of your chosen tipple, so you can only imagine what nilanol does. Worryingly, it is found in most beers, wines and spirits in easily detectable amounts, and even in low-alcohol and supposed 'non-alcoholic' alternatives...

That is freaking brilliant. Can I use that one and would you like to be referenced on places like the DHMO awareness Facebook group?
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Re: 1708: "Dehydration"

Postby orthogon » Tue Jul 26, 2016 1:43 pm UTC

Soupspoon wrote:There's also "nilanol". Chemically, it lies in the strict sequence of ethanol, then methanol, then nilanol, and you of course know the problems with meths as part or whole fraction of your chosen tipple, so you can only imagine what nilanol does. Worryingly, it is found in most beers, wines and spirits in easily detectable amounts, and even in low-alcohol and supposed 'non-alcoholic' alternatives...

I agree with Neil, that's excellent and a refreshing (!) improvement on dihydrogen monoxide, which is getting a bit tired.

Anyway, must go. I'm going to go and get wasted on propanol. Following your logic, that must be pretty benign, right?
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

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Re: 1708: "Dehydration"

Postby Soupspoon » Tue Jul 26, 2016 2:18 pm UTC

Neil_Boekend wrote:
Soupspoon wrote:There's also "nilanol". Chemically, it lies in the strict sequence of ethanol, then methanol, then nilanol, and you of course know the problems with meths as part or whole fraction of your chosen tipple, so you can only imagine what nilanol does. Worryingly, it is found in most beers, wines and spirits in easily detectable amounts, and even in low-alcohol and supposed 'non-alcoholic' alternatives...

That is freaking brilliant. Can I use that one and would you like to be referenced on places like the DHMO awareness Facebook group?

As you wish. Consider it public commons, blah-de-blah, no need for credit due and do rewrite it better (I'm sure you can, I hesitated over the possibility of "nilane", "zilchane", "zipane", etc, being the root organic moiety) and bulk it up however you wish.

(Surprised it's not been thought of before. But you seem more excited about it than I would have otherwise credited...)

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Re: 1708: "Dehydration"

Postby DavidSh » Tue Jul 26, 2016 2:50 pm UTC

Do I figure things correctly that nilane looks a lot like molecular hydrogen, that is, H2?

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Re: 1708: "Dehydration"

Postby Copper Bezel » Tue Jul 26, 2016 3:16 pm UTC

I'd imagine it's an OH group bonded to a single hydrogen.
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Re: 1708: "Dehydration"

Postby svenman » Tue Jul 26, 2016 3:20 pm UTC

DavidSh wrote:Do I figure things correctly that nilane looks a lot like molecular hydrogen, that is, H2?
No, it looks like C0H1OH. In other words, hydroxyl acid. In still other words... (left as an exercise to the reader)

Edit: effectively ninja'd by Copper Bezel.
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Re: 1708: "Dehydration"

Postby rmsgrey » Tue Jul 26, 2016 3:25 pm UTC

svenman wrote:
DavidSh wrote:Do I figure things correctly that nilane looks a lot like molecular hydrogen, that is, H2?
No, it looks like C0H1OH. In other words, hydroxyl acid. In still other words... (left as an exercise to the reader)

Edit: effectively ninja'd by Copper Bezel.


And both of you mis-read the question, which was about nilane (H(CH2)0H), not nilanol.

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Re: 1708: "Dehydration"

Postby svenman » Tue Jul 26, 2016 3:30 pm UTC

rmsgrey wrote:
svenman wrote:
DavidSh wrote:Do I figure things correctly that nilane looks a lot like molecular hydrogen, that is, H2?
No, it looks like C0H1OH. In other words, hydroxyl acid. In still other words... (left as an exercise to the reader)

Edit: effectively ninja'd by Copper Bezel.


And both of you mis-read the question, which was about nilane (H(CH2)0H), not nilanol.

Ch*rp it. You are right, and so is DavidSh.
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Re: 1708: "Dehydration"

Postby da Doctah » Tue Jul 26, 2016 3:47 pm UTC

svenman wrote:
DavidSh wrote:Do I figure things correctly that nilane looks a lot like molecular hydrogen, that is, H2?
No, it looks like C0H1OH. In other words, hydroxyl acid.


And you can just imagine the problems that could be caused by hydryl ether, (C0H1)2O.

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Re: 1708: "Dehydration"

Postby Flumble » Tue Jul 26, 2016 4:17 pm UTC

Isn't that a dinilyl ether?

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Re: 1708: "Dehydration"

Postby Eebster the Great » Tue Jul 26, 2016 4:31 pm UTC

None of these are as dangerous as oxidane though, which is responsible for thousands of times more death than ozone and is impossible to completely remove from the lower atmosphere.

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Re: 1708: "Dehydration"

Postby svenman » Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:04 pm UTC

Debating which one out of oxidane, dinilyl ether, hydryl, hydroxyl acid, nilanol and dihydrogen monoxide is the most dangerous looks rather pointless to me. I really doubt you will be able to find substantial statistical data as proof either way. Scientists aren't going to investigate a question like this; there's no money to be made from researching it.

On the other hand, there's also reason to suspect that completely removing all of these chemical compounds from our water supply might cause more harm than good.
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Re: 1708: "Dehydration"

Postby SuicideJunkie » Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:38 pm UTC

Another thing you may not be aware of is that most if not all companies make use of a legal loophole to avoid listing those names on the ingredients list of their products which contain them.

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Re: 1708: "Dehydration"

Postby Pfhorrest » Tue Jul 26, 2016 6:40 pm UTC

They are still legally required to be listed though, it's just allowable to use a more innocuous-sounding name, so you can still avoid them if you know what to look for.
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Re: 1708: "Dehydration"

Postby ucim » Tue Jul 26, 2016 6:56 pm UTC

Soupspoon wrote:Surprised it's not been thought of before.
I've done research on zeronol for many years, however I'm not at liberty to discuss the results. I don't think the public could handle it. There is no way to make the public water supply completely safe from these dangerous compounds, so going on about it only serves to fuel panic, and will lead to youtube videos about the supposed government conspiracy to keep the truth from people.

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Re: 1708: "Dehydration"

Postby orthogon » Tue Jul 26, 2016 6:59 pm UTC

ucim wrote:Remember - the only conspiracy is a failed conspiracy!

Jose

That reminds me: chemtrails are full of the stuff. What more proof of a conspiracy do you need?!
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Re: 1708: "Dehydration"

Postby Flumble » Tue Jul 26, 2016 11:03 pm UTC

orthogon wrote:
ucim wrote:Remember - the only conspiracy is a failed conspiracy!

Jose

That reminds me: chemtrails are full of the stuff. What more proof of a conspiracy do you need?!

Not only that, but the concrete inside the twin towers was infected with hydroxyl acid that was released when the fire spread and as a result the structural integrity was weakened. The construction workers presumably even knew about this!

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Re: 1708: "Dehydration"

Postby ucim » Tue Jul 26, 2016 11:29 pm UTC

Flumble wrote:The construction workers presumably even knew about this!
Not quite. The cement was made with "relatively" **koff** harmless hydrogen hydroxide, but in order to save money, hydroxyl acid was added as a stabilizer. This let them use expired hydrogen hydroxide that was purchased on the black market. Although management knew, the construction workers themselves were never told.

Emails leaked from confidential sources indicated that scientists had warned management from the outset that hydroxyl acid is a poor stabilizer for hydrogen hydroxide; and when heated leads to the creation of zeryl alcohol (or zeronol). This is what ultimately weakened the towers as the fire progressed and brought the towers down.

There never was any jet fuel.

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Re: 1708: "Dehydration"

Postby chridd » Wed Jul 27, 2016 8:25 am UTC

Soupspoon wrote:(Surprised it's not been thought of before. But you seem more excited about it than I would have otherwise credited...)
I've thought of it before, though I haven't written anything about it publicly (I called it nullanol).
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Re: 1708: "Dehydration"

Postby orthogon » Wed Jul 27, 2016 10:13 am UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:They are still legally required to be listed though, it's just allowable to use a more innocuous-sounding name, so you can still avoid them if you know what to look for.

Ah, yes. Quite often they'll list them as "aqua", especially for cosmetics and toiletries.

Spoiler:
Due to the phenomenal quantity of bollocks associated with any discussion of ingredients in cosmetics, particularly "chemicals", it's surprisingly hard to get to a decent, authoritative and comprehensible explanation for why this term is used. The relevant WP article is not only quite poorly written, but has clearly had so little attention that isn't even flagged as requiring improvement. Other sources suggest that "aqua" refers specifically to purified/distilled water.
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

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Re: 1708: "Dehydration"

Postby Soupspoon » Wed Jul 27, 2016 1:40 pm UTC

orthogon wrote:it's surprisingly hard to get to a decent, authoritative and comprehensible explanation for why this term ["aqua"] is used.
I'll read the article you link later, but it has always been my understanding that it's just pure sales(wo)manship. If you can get away with not saying "Polyisobutenileblahdeblah Acid" and instead say "Essence of Loveliness", then you're onto a winner. That's if you're not in the position to call it "our special ingredient, PI10, trapped within microscrubber particles that home in on your skin's dry spots.. " in the non-Ingredient bumf. And as long as you're following all advertising and package-labelling rules and regulations, why not?

Ditto, "water" doesn't actually sound very useful, and not (ironically) very moisturising, either.. "Aqua", however, is obviously something quite exotic and sounds like it actually does you good. Almost exactly the opposite of DHMO, in fact, to the equally uninitiated.

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Re: 1708: "Dehydration"

Postby Eebster the Great » Tue Aug 09, 2016 3:28 am UTC

I'm not sure about the exact details regarding labeling water in ingredients lists, but I don't think it is required in all cases. Certainly it is often listed, but it often isn't (as an example, at least in the U.S., meat can be pumped full of water with no labeling requirement whatsoever, even when that amounts to a substantial fraction of its weight.


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