1742: "Will It Work"

This forum is for the individual discussion thread that goes with each new comic.

Moderators: Moderators General, Prelates, Magistrates

User avatar
thunk
Posts: 440
Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2016 3:29 am UTC
Location: Arguably Exiled

1742: "Will It Work"

Postby thunk » Wed Oct 05, 2016 6:26 am UTC

Image

alt-text: 'Copy and paste from a random thread on a website' is the hardest to predict, and depends on the specific website, programming language, tone of the description, and current phase of the moon.

Prediction for next comic title: "It Won't Work".
Free markets, free movement, free plops
Blitz on, my friends Quantized, GnomeAnne, and iskinner!
troo dat

ThemePark
Posts: 450
Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2008 5:42 pm UTC
Location: Århus, Denmark

Re: 1742: "Will It Work"

Postby ThemePark » Wed Oct 05, 2016 6:37 am UTC

But Will It Blend?
I have traveled from 1979 to be a member of the unofficial board Council of Elders. Phear M3

User avatar
jonhaug
Posts: 23
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2015 12:44 pm UTC

Re: 1742: "Will It Work"

Postby jonhaug » Wed Oct 05, 2016 6:39 am UTC

Being a person who loves things like Lisp and simple window managing stuff, I have yet to see that the Sawfish window manager works out of the box in Ubuntu or Mint Linux distributions. Installing directly from the package manager "aptitude install sawfish" and is thus the "very likely" end of the scale, it didn't work. :-(

/Jon

jrogers
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2013 7:04 pm UTC

Re: 1742: "Will It Work"

Postby jrogers » Wed Oct 05, 2016 6:52 am UTC

jonhaug wrote:Being a person who loves things like Lisp and simple window managing stuff, I have yet to see that the Sawfish window manager works out of the box in Ubuntu or Mint Linux distributions. Installing directly from the package manager "aptitude install sawfish" and is thus the "very likely" end of the scale, it didn't work. :-(

/Jon


I just ran "aptitude install sawfish" on my Ubuntu 16.04 system and it installed just fine. I started it with "sawfish --replace" and it died with
waiting for the previous manager to go away.

Lisp backtrace:
#6 open-structures ((rep rep.regexp rep.system rep.io.files rep.io.processes sawfish.wm sawfish.wm.util.groups sawfish.wm.util.display-window sawfish.wm.util.compat sawfish.wm.ext.error-handler sawfish.wm.ext.apps-menu sawfish.wm.edge.conf sawfish.wm.edge.actions sawfish.wm.frames sawfish.wm.menus sawfish.wm.commands.launcher sawfish.wm.ext.wallpaper sawfish.wm.prg.compton sawfish.wm.prg.conky sawfish.wm.prg.diodon sawfish.wm.prg.fehlstart sawfish.wm.prg.idesk sawfish.wm.prg.nm-applet sawfish.wm.prg.pancake sawfish.wm.prg.trayer sawfish.wm.prg.xgamma sawfish.wm.prg.xmobar sawfish.wm.prg.xmodmap sawfish.wm.prg.xsettingsd))
#4 make-structure (() #<closure 2114978 @ user> #<closure 2114950 @ sawfish.wm> user)
#2 load ...
#1 run-byte-code ...

error--> (file-error "No such file or directory" "sawfish/wm/ext/wallpaper")

User avatar
rhomboidal
Posts: 759
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2011 5:25 pm UTC
Contact:

Re: 1742: "Will It Work"

Postby rhomboidal » Wed Oct 05, 2016 7:45 am UTC

"Minimal configuration" actually refers to constellation positions.

Tub
Posts: 308
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2011 3:13 pm UTC

Re: 1742: "Will It Work"

Postby Tub » Wed Oct 05, 2016 8:38 am UTC

Not pictured, at the far bottom end of the graph: "Code on my local drives"

User avatar
sfmans
Posts: 97
Joined: Mon Jun 23, 2014 9:09 am UTC
Location: High Peak, UK

Re: 1742: "Will It Work"

Postby sfmans » Wed Oct 05, 2016 8:40 am UTC

Tub wrote:Not pictured, at the far bottom end of the graph: "Code on my local drives"


Not pictured, several thousands pixels even further down:

"Example projects from CodeProject or ExpertSexchange"

User avatar
cellocgw
Posts: 1760
Joined: Sat Jun 21, 2008 7:40 pm UTC

Re: 1742: "Will It Work"

Postby cellocgw » Wed Oct 05, 2016 11:21 am UTC

He left out "code snippets posted to TheDailyWTF "

Maybe those are plotted along the imaginary axis.
https://app.box.com/witthoftresume
Former OTTer
Vote cellocgw for President 2020. #ScienceintheWhiteHouse http://cellocgw.wordpress.com
"The Planck length is 3.81779e-33 picas." -- keithl
" Earth weighs almost exactly π milliJupiters" -- what-if #146, note 7

kurkosdr
Posts: 17
Joined: Thu May 20, 2010 4:51 pm UTC

Re: 1742: "Will It Work"

Postby kurkosdr » Wed Oct 05, 2016 2:46 pm UTC

App Stores being on the same level as package managers? That can't be right... Has Randall ever heard of dependency hell?

PS: Yes I know the concept of dependencies and package managers is the academically correct way to conserve space blah blah blah, but the ability to have an entire app packaged as a single apk is pretty sweet. Desktop Linux tried to copy this with app image, but it doesn't work because every distro is slightly different from each other... In fact even close versions of the same distro are different enough to make an app image fail on one but work on the other.

User avatar
Copper Bezel
Posts: 2416
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 6:35 am UTC
Location: Web exclusive!

Re: 1742: "Will It Work"

Postby Copper Bezel » Wed Oct 05, 2016 3:20 pm UTC

They're working on it, and it's going to be distro specific, but a version of the app store model is eventually going to be the normal mode of operation on the leading Linuxes, via Snap for Ubuntu and glick2 for everything else.
So much depends upon a red wheel barrow (>= XXII) but it is not going to be installed.

she / her / her

User avatar
Flumble
Yes Man
Posts: 1943
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2012 9:35 pm UTC

Re: 1742: "Will It Work"

Postby Flumble » Wed Oct 05, 2016 3:45 pm UTC

Everything's gonna be docker images, isn't it?

golden.number
Posts: 15
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2015 4:08 pm UTC

Re: 1742: "Will It Work"

Postby golden.number » Wed Oct 05, 2016 4:42 pm UTC

For me it's almost always anything that requires make and/or requires a specific dependency that isn't in the standard repositories.

teelo
Posts: 734
Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2010 11:50 pm UTC

Re: 1742: "Will It Work"

Postby teelo » Wed Oct 05, 2016 6:52 pm UTC

He forgot "first install Windows 95..."

User avatar
Copper Bezel
Posts: 2416
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 6:35 am UTC
Location: Web exclusive!

Re: 1742: "Will It Work"

Postby Copper Bezel » Wed Oct 05, 2016 7:02 pm UTC

Flumble wrote:Everything's gonna be docker images, isn't it?

Ha! Yes.
So much depends upon a red wheel barrow (>= XXII) but it is not going to be installed.

she / her / her

User avatar
pogrmman
Posts: 323
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2016 10:53 pm UTC
Location: Probably outside

Re: 1742: "Will It Work"

Postby pogrmman » Wed Oct 05, 2016 7:17 pm UTC

I wonder what Randall is working on right now. Of the last 4 comics, only "Rosetta" was non-related to working on something. Especially with "Fixing Problems" and this one...

On another note, package managers can be great. The key word is "can". The packages are rarely the problem. The dependencies are. Especially with portage...

User avatar
Eternal Density
Posts: 5472
Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2008 12:37 am UTC
Contact:

Re: 1742: "Will It Work"

Postby Eternal Density » Wed Oct 05, 2016 8:27 pm UTC

Some code sources are more honest: https://ardour.org/building_linux.html
Building Ardour on Linux
Stop!
Do you really need to do this? We provide ready-to-run packages of Ardour. Unless you are a developer with experience compiling and building applications from source, this document is not for you. Please go back to the download page

We do not provide support for building from source. We do not make regular efforts to keep this page up to date. Please do not ask for help with this process.
Though that's partly because they charge money for prebuilt downloads. Open source doesn't mean open build process.
cellocgw wrote:He left out "code snippets posted to TheDailyWTF "

Maybe those are plotted along the imaginary axis.
Plz email me teh codez.
Play the game of Time! castle.chirpingmustard.com Hotdog Vending Supplier But what is this?
In the Marvel vs. DC film-making war, we're all winners.

Cervisiae Amatorem
Posts: 57
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2011 5:47 pm UTC

Re: 1742: "Will It Work"

Postby Cervisiae Amatorem » Wed Oct 05, 2016 8:37 pm UTC

pogrmman wrote:I wonder what Randall is working on right now. Of the last 4 comics, only "Rosetta" was non-related to working on something. Especially with "Fixing Problems" and this one...

On another note, package managers can be great. The key word is "can". The packages are rarely the problem. The dependencies are. Especially with portage...


Let's go back for each of his epic comics and see what the topic was for the previous 10 comics.

"big plans"
"a lot more planning than I anticipated"
"it will be worth the effort"
"a lot more work than I anticipated"
"it will be worth the effort.. right?"
"frustration"
"frustration"
"frustration"
"success!"
"big plans.."

Much like my sex life..

Draco18s
Posts: 84
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2008 7:50 am UTC

Re: 1742: "Will It Work"

Postby Draco18s » Wed Oct 05, 2016 8:43 pm UTC

Yeah, I've been here.
I once was tasked with getting some code running so that the rest of my senior design group could build stuff on top of it.

First red flag was that the project was based around X3D which is awful, to begin with.
Second red flag was that the code in question was a "tech demo for functionality."
Third red flag was that one of our professors knew the guys that wrote the code in question and that if we "had any problems, I can just call them." (TLDR: it took four months).
Fourth red flag was that there was a much more complete alternative that was not yet available to the public and all I had to do to get it was get the group to ask one of our professors to email the company requesting it for educational purposes. No one in my group ever replied to that email.
Fifth red flag was that it was "download this zip and do the following..." which involved some minimal configuration.

Turned out that I had got it working, but had no idea that it was working because "working" was a super relative term.

ps.02
Posts: 378
Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2013 8:02 pm UTC

Re: 1742: "Will It Work"

Postby ps.02 » Wed Oct 05, 2016 9:22 pm UTC

pogrmman wrote:package managers can be great. The key word is "can". The packages are rarely the problem. The dependencies are. Especially with portage...

I'm not familiar with portage, but with most package managers, in fact, dependencies are expressed as packages. Which transforms your statement into: "The packages are rarely the problem. Other packages are."

Is that what you meant to say? On the face of it, this doesn't make much sense. But maybe your use of the term the dependencies meant something else?

xtifr
Posts: 296
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 6:38 pm UTC

Re: 1742: "Will It Work"

Postby xtifr » Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:30 pm UTC

kurkosdr wrote:App Stores being on the same level as package managers? That can't be right... Has Randall ever heard of dependency hell?


I've...heard of dependency hell. Haven't actually seen it in decades (pretty much since Debian started shipping apt).

Heck, even their older, much-despised dselect tool would at least show you a list of the packages you needed and allow you to manually select them for installation. Which falls a bit short of something I'd refer to as "hell". PITA at worst.

(This isn't always possible with RPM-based systems, since RPM has file dependencies as well as package dependencies, and there's no easy way to see which packages may offer a particular file. Fortunately, file dependencies are rarely used with RPM, probably for just this reason.)

App stores, on the other hand, put you into download hell, because they bundle all the dependencies, so every time a library needs an update, you have to download fifty gigantic updated packages instead of just the one tiny library package. (Some of the new app-store technologies, like flatpack, are trying to get around this, but I'm not entirely sure how successful they'll be.) Since I'm already downloading tons of stuff every day, I do not want to switch to a model which increases that by a factor of hundreds or thousands. I plan to avoid app stores like the plague!
"[T]he author has followed the usual practice of contemporary books on graph theory, namely to use words that are similar but not identical to the terms used in other books on graph theory."
-- Donald Knuth, The Art of Computer Programming, Vol I, 3rd ed.

rmsgrey
Posts: 3074
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2011 6:35 pm UTC

Re: 1742: "Will It Work"

Postby rmsgrey » Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:33 pm UTC

teelo wrote:He forgot "first install Windows 95..."


...in DosBox.

User avatar
Copper Bezel
Posts: 2416
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 6:35 am UTC
Location: Web exclusive!

Re: 1742: "Will It Work"

Postby Copper Bezel » Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:53 pm UTC

xtifr wrote:(Some of the new app-store technologies, like flatpack, are trying to get around this, but I'm not entirely sure how successful they'll be.) Since I'm already downloading tons of stuff every day, I do not want to switch to a model which increases that by a factor of hundreds or thousands. I plan to avoid app stores like the plague!

Modern app stores generally already use delta changes, to my understanding....
So much depends upon a red wheel barrow (>= XXII) but it is not going to be installed.

she / her / her

User avatar
Eebster the Great
Posts: 2739
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2008 12:58 am UTC

Re: 1742: "Will It Work"

Postby Eebster the Great » Thu Oct 06, 2016 3:06 am UTC

This is absolutely ridiculous. Everyone knows the probability of code running successfully depends on the phase of Venus, not the Moon.

Tub
Posts: 308
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2011 3:13 pm UTC

Re: 1742: "Will It Work"

Postby Tub » Thu Oct 06, 2016 10:06 am UTC

ps.02 wrote:I'm not familiar with portage, but with most package managers, in fact, dependencies are expressed as packages. Which transforms your statement into: "The packages are rarely the problem. Other packages are."

portage is used by gentoo, which has three features that make package management incredibly difficult: it's a rolling release distro, everything is compiled from source, and it has USE flags.

USE flags mean that your packages can have certain features compiled in or not. For example
dev-libs/openssl USE="asm sslv3 tls-heartbeat zlib -bindist -gmp -kerberos -rfc3779 -sctp -sslv2 -static-libs -vanilla"

Disabling features you don't need (kerberos) or features you really really shouldn't use any more (sslv2) seems smart. But these options complicate dependencies. If kerberos is enabled, the package depends on app-crypt/mit-krb5, if kerberos is disabled, it does not.

And then you don't just depend on other packages, you also depend on their use flags. curl has the flags +ssl and +kerberos. If both are enabled, depend on openssl, but require that openssl is installed with +kerberos, too!

Last but not least, it's a rolling distro, so multiple (incompatible) versions are available in the same package tree, and you need to specify the compatible versions in your dependencies. I need openssl at least 0.98, but not newer than 1.0.1 due to API changes.

Oh, and then there are compile time dependencies and runtime dependencies. linux-headers are usually just a compile time dependency, but the distinction is more important for closely related packages. A needs B to run, but B cannot be compiled without A. Xorg's glamor links against libgl, mesa links against xorg's libs etc. These circular dependencies exist more often than you'd think - you just don't notice them on binary packages, because then they're someone else's problem.

Got all that? Time for a real-world example. Look at libreoffice-5.2.2.2.ebuild, the variables COMMON_DEPEND, RDEPEND and DEPEND. Complicated enough? With the high number of possible configurations, the chance to miss a dependency or a conflict are enormous. Many reported bugs are "package A doesn't compile" and the answer is usually "set USE=X on package B" or "install package B", sometimes even "uninstall package C". If you're really unlucky, "install a different compiler". These requirements should have been specified in the package, but they weren't.

Sometimes I'm surprised that it works at all. But with a little care and occasional manual intervention, it does.

User avatar
Flumble
Yes Man
Posts: 1943
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2012 9:35 pm UTC

Re: 1742: "Will It Work"

Postby Flumble » Thu Oct 06, 2016 1:00 pm UTC

Tub wrote:portage is used by gentoo, which has three features that make package management incredibly difficult: it's a rolling release distro, everything is compiled from source, and it has USE flags.

It must be a good thing though, because the internet keeps telling me to install Gentoo. (Joke's on them, I unironically use a windows phone!)
I haven't had problems with the rolling release that is Arch. Well, except for the one time they had new master keys for the package manager and I ended up reinstalling arch because I couldn't figure out how to insert these new keys. :roll:

User avatar
Solra Bizna
Posts: 48
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2015 6:44 pm UTC

Re: 1742: "Will It Work"

Postby Solra Bizna » Thu Oct 06, 2016 5:37 pm UTC

Hello, I'm Solra, and I'm a Gentooholic.

I was a fervent Gentoo/portage user. I didn't mind spending days compiling things. (One of my main computers was a 100MHz Power Mac.) Then, one day, I decided it was time to update.

Unbeknownst to me, a major package (expat) had been changed in a messy, non-backwards-compatible fashion a few months before.

After days of trying to repair the system, I gave up and installed Debian. I haven't looked back. Now that I'm older, and have things to use my computer for other than "play around to get it working", I really appreciate the fact that Debian... works. Prudent policies and careful releases aside, being a binary-based distribution helps a lot, for reasons Tub pointed out.

Plus, Sawfish works out of the box. :)

xtifr
Posts: 296
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 6:38 pm UTC

Re: 1742: "Will It Work"

Postby xtifr » Thu Oct 06, 2016 6:49 pm UTC

Copper Bezel wrote:
xtifr wrote:(Some of the new app-store technologies, like flatpack, are trying to get around this, but I'm not entirely sure how successful they'll be.) Since I'm already downloading tons of stuff every day, I do not want to switch to a model which increases that by a factor of hundreds or thousands. I plan to avoid app stores like the plague!

Modern app stores generally already use delta changes, to my understanding....


Yeah, that's what I was referring to with "trying to get around this".

Anyway...great. So now I have to rely on a bunch of random developers who don't know or care about each other to get the various libraries on my system right. What if one of them misses a security alert and includes an older, buggy version of a critical library in a new version of their bundled package? How is the system supposed to know that it shouldn't download that part of the bundle? And it only helps if none of them put the libraries in funny places (which too many of them seem to do).

No, I'll take the version where someone who cares about integration is sitting in the middle trying to make sure these apps all work together and don't conflict, thank you very much. Yes, it means it may take a little longer to get the latest-and-greatest version, but for the overwhelming majority of the apps, I honestly don't care. If there were a particular app where I absolutely needed the latest-and-greatest, I might consider getting the app-store version, but for the most part, I'm sticking with avoid-like-plague. App store is a developer's dream, but a user's nightmare.

Yes, my attitude may have something to do with the fact that I'm running Debian testing, which actually has all the apps, instead of something like Fedora or Ubuntu where you have to rely on third-party or semi-official semi-supported "universe" repositories, but anyone else can do the same! :P :wink:
"[T]he author has followed the usual practice of contemporary books on graph theory, namely to use words that are similar but not identical to the terms used in other books on graph theory."
-- Donald Knuth, The Art of Computer Programming, Vol I, 3rd ed.

User avatar
Copper Bezel
Posts: 2416
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 6:35 am UTC
Location: Web exclusive!

Re: 1742: "Will It Work"

Postby Copper Bezel » Thu Oct 06, 2016 8:34 pm UTC

xtifr wrote:
Copper Bezel wrote:
xtifr wrote:(Some of the new app-store technologies, like flatpack, are trying to get around this, but I'm not entirely sure how successful they'll be.) Since I'm already downloading tons of stuff every day, I do not want to switch to a model which increases that by a factor of hundreds or thousands. I plan to avoid app stores like the plague!

Modern app stores generally already use delta changes, to my understanding....


Yeah, that's what I was referring to with "trying to get around this".

So read "trying to get around this" as "have successfully solved the problem, as is necessary to make the thing work at all". Gotcha.
So much depends upon a red wheel barrow (>= XXII) but it is not going to be installed.

she / her / her

RogueCynic
Posts: 359
Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2009 10:23 pm UTC

Re: 1742: "Will It Work"

Postby RogueCynic » Fri Oct 07, 2016 4:12 am UTC

pogrmman wrote:I wonder what Randall is working on right now. Of the last 4 comics, only "Rosetta" was non-related to working on something. Especially with "Fixing Problems" and this one...

On another note, package managers can be great. The key word is "can". The packages are rarely the problem. The dependencies are. Especially with portage...


If Randall is working on something and isn't sure it will work, here's a joke for him. I wrote Fedora 24 on a usb 3.0 flashdrive and blew away the controller. http://superuser.com/questions/411715/gigabyte-ga-970a-ud3-mobo-wont-boot-from-usb-flash-driveIt seems the drivers were written for Windows 98.
I am Lord Titanius Englesmith, Fancyman of Cornwood.
See 1 Kings 7:23 for pi.
If you put a prune in a juicer, what would you get?

reval
Posts: 76
Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2016 2:56 pm UTC

Re: 1742: "Will It Work"

Postby reval » Fri Oct 07, 2016 2:26 pm UTC

I hate seeing App Store on the likely end of the "will it work scale". I want to yell, "yeah, and you know why?"

Because it's not working for you. It's working for the plutocrats who gave you a closed platform that you don't control. You bought it. Now it's working. You're working. You're working for them.

Sure it works, but only by going in the wrong direction.

Tyndmyr
Posts: 10130
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:38 pm UTC

Re: 1742: "Will It Work"

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Oct 07, 2016 4:18 pm UTC

reval wrote:I hate seeing App Store on the likely end of the "will it work scale". I want to yell, "yeah, and you know why?"

Because it's not working for you. It's working for the plutocrats who gave you a closed platform that you don't control. You bought it. Now it's working. You're working. You're working for them.

Sure it works, but only by going in the wrong direction.


Living mostly on the opposite end of that spectrum at the moment, that seems lovely.

Just following some guide, that leaves out "obvious" twerking and hasn't been updated in several major releases, invariably results in heartburn.

User avatar
Old Bruce
Posts: 57
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2016 2:27 pm UTC

Re: 1742: "Will It Work"

Postby Old Bruce » Fri Oct 07, 2016 6:32 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:...
Just following some guide, that leaves out "obvious" twerking and hasn't been updated in several major releases, invariably results in heartburn.


I sure hope you meant tweeking.

damn that is hard spell.

ps.02
Posts: 378
Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2013 8:02 pm UTC

Re: 1742: "Will It Work"

Postby ps.02 » Fri Oct 07, 2016 6:41 pm UTC

Old Bruce wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:leaves out "obvious" twerking

I sure hope you meant tweeking.
damn that is hard spell.

They did. Pretty sure this forum has a filter that takes t w e a k and turns it into t w e r k. At some point, long ago, this was thought to be funny.

User avatar
SecondTalon
SexyTalon
Posts: 25656
Joined: Sat May 05, 2007 2:10 pm UTC
Location: Louisville, Kentucky, USA, Mars. HA!
Contact:

Re: 1742: "Will It Work"

Postby SecondTalon » Fri Oct 07, 2016 8:07 pm UTC

Still is
heuristically_alone wrote:I want to write a DnD campaign and play it by myself and DM it myself.
heuristically_alone wrote:I have been informed that this is called writing a book.

rmsgrey
Posts: 3074
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2011 6:35 pm UTC

Re: 1742: "Will It Work"

Postby rmsgrey » Fri Oct 07, 2016 11:36 pm UTC

Eebster the Great wrote:This is absolutely ridiculous. Everyone knows the probability of code running successfully depends on the phase of Venus, not the Moon.


I thought it depended on the phase of Phobos, as viewed from Deimos? Or was it Deimos from Phobos? Which one's the small one and which one's the really small one?

xtifr
Posts: 296
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 6:38 pm UTC

Re: 1742: "Will It Work"

Postby xtifr » Sat Oct 08, 2016 2:14 am UTC

Copper Bezel wrote:
xtifr wrote:
Copper Bezel wrote:
xtifr wrote:(Some of the new app-store technologies, like flatpack, are trying to get around this, but I'm not entirely sure how successful they'll be.) Since I'm already downloading tons of stuff every day, I do not want to switch to a model which increases that by a factor of hundreds or thousands. I plan to avoid app stores like the plague!

Modern app stores generally already use delta changes, to my understanding....


Yeah, that's what I was referring to with "trying to get around this".

So read "trying to get around this" as "have successfully solved the problem, as is necessary to make the thing work at all". Gotcha.

No, by "trying to get around this" I mean, "have come up with a half-assed solution which will certainly create as many problems as it solves."
"[T]he author has followed the usual practice of contemporary books on graph theory, namely to use words that are similar but not identical to the terms used in other books on graph theory."
-- Donald Knuth, The Art of Computer Programming, Vol I, 3rd ed.

User avatar
Copper Bezel
Posts: 2416
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 6:35 am UTC
Location: Web exclusive!

Re: 1742: "Will It Work"

Postby Copper Bezel » Sat Oct 08, 2016 3:22 am UTC

Yeah, no. There's no massive duplication of libraries if they're linked off anyway and only downloaded new when they're needed. It's the same boxes of the same code as the repo model. When two apps are written against different versions of the same library, which is where the repo model simply breaks and does not work, you have a slightly bigger download. Dear me, what shall we do.

The security issue is a valid one, but don't pretend this other shit is.
So much depends upon a red wheel barrow (>= XXII) but it is not going to be installed.

she / her / her

User avatar
grkvlt
Posts: 21
Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2011 6:42 am UTC
Contact:

Re: 1742: "Will It Work"

Postby grkvlt » Sat Oct 08, 2016 7:07 am UTC

reval wrote:Because it's not working for you. It's working for the plutocrats who gave you a closed platform that you don't control. You bought it. Now it's working. You're working. You're working for them.


No, it works because of that first step there - you *bought* the app. And, some of that money went towards the developer of the app, and some went to the owners and developers of the store. Don't underestimate the incentive that money provides to people to make them do actual work, instead of the least amount possible. In cases where free, open source alternatives work, you will usually be able to discern the hidden hand of capitalism at work behind the scenes, with some corporation paying its employees, or paying contractors, to put in the required effort to solve the annoying problems and breakages that are left alone as 'the user can solve that themselves' by others.
distributed systems hacker abstract visitor pattern {{citation-needed}}

ps.02
Posts: 378
Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2013 8:02 pm UTC

Re: 1742: "Will It Work"

Postby ps.02 » Sat Oct 08, 2016 7:52 am UTC

Copper Bezel wrote:When two apps are written against different versions of the same library, which is where the repo model simply breaks and does not work,

That is an interesting assertion that depends a great deal on how poorly the repository and its software are designed and maintained, say, on a scale of Debian to rpmfind.net circa 1998.

So, I mean, if your experience with software repositories is more on the rpmfind.net-in-1998 end of the scale, I can see why you'd think that. But as I'm sure xtifr remembers*, Debian migrated libc, its most core library, the one every package on the entire system (except the Linux kernel itself) depends on directly or indirectly, between three mutually incompatible versions, without breaking running systems. You could have libc4 and libc5 and libc6 all on one system, each used by whichever apps were built for them. Including whole chains of libraries.

Migrating the entire Debian system between libc versions took quite awhile (partly because there was no real urgency, as everything continued to work) - but I can recall no point when any applications were broken or uninstallable on account of the transitions.

*This was in 1996. I think he was around.

User avatar
orthogon
Posts: 2690
Joined: Thu May 17, 2012 7:52 am UTC
Location: The Airy 1830 ellipsoid

Re: 1742: "Will It Work"

Postby orthogon » Sat Oct 08, 2016 10:10 am UTC

grkvlt wrote:
reval wrote:Because it's not working for you. It's working for the plutocrats who gave you a closed platform that you don't control. You bought it. Now it's working. You're working. You're working for them.


No, it works because of that first step there - you *bought* the app. And, some of that money went towards the developer of the app, and some went to the owners and developers of the store. Don't underestimate the incentive that money provides to people to make them do actual work, instead of the least amount possible. In cases where free, open source alternatives work, you will usually be able to discern the hidden hand of capitalism at work behind the scenes, with some corporation paying its employees, or paying contractors, to put in the required effort to solve the annoying problems and breakages that are left alone as 'the user can solve that themselves' by others.

In theory, that's how it ought to work. In practice, you get fantastic and awful free stuff and fantastic and awful paid-for stuff. Working against the capitalist mechanism you describe, there's something good about the open-source free software approach. You've got people doing the work because they love it, not just to put bread on the table; many of them are young and idealistic about the methods they apply, as opposed to old, jaded and full of bad habits; some are doing it to get experience so they can get a paid job; and its being free provides a larger user base who will test and even bug-fix the code. The economics and psychology of open-source are interesting.
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.


Return to “Individual XKCD Comic Threads”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 33 guests