1761: "Blame"

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Re: 1761: "Blame"

Postby gmalivuk » Fri Nov 18, 2016 11:24 pm UTC

azule wrote:I was under the impression that your "friends" could be "friends of friends". Or, that you can reply to comments of people you're not friends with.

The comic was saying friends, though...
Yeah, but I was replying to Stargazer's comment on netsplit's post, which talked about Facebook but not about Facebook friends.
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Re: 1761: "Blame"

Postby Sheikh al-Majaneen » Sat Nov 19, 2016 12:28 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:I don't go to parties full of shitty people who vote for rapists and homophobes, so actually I'm pretty okay at parties.

Not as far as you know, but with an attitude like that, I can see why you'd be left in the dark.

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Re: 1761: "Blame"

Postby azule » Sat Nov 19, 2016 12:38 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
azule wrote:I was under the impression that your "friends" could be "friends of friends". Or, that you can reply to comments of people you're not friends with.

The comic was saying friends, though...
Yeah, but I was replying to Stargazer's comment on netsplit's post, which talked about Facebook but not about Facebook friends.

I think we all are going down the Facebook path more than the Facebook friends path. Just thought the comic's subject deserved another mention. Could be relevant. You never know. :wink:
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Re: 1761: "Blame"

Postby StCredZero » Sat Nov 19, 2016 12:52 am UTC

Version control programs and IDEs have "Blame," so why not social media apps?

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Re: 1761: "Blame"

Postby Pied typer » Sat Nov 19, 2016 1:20 am UTC

* immediately unfriends Randall *
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Re: 1761: "Blame"

Postby gmalivuk » Sat Nov 19, 2016 1:25 am UTC

Sheikh al-Majaneen wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:I don't go to parties full of shitty people who vote for rapists and homophobes, so actually I'm pretty okay at parties.
Not as far as you know, but with an attitude like that, I can see why you'd be left in the dark.
More like, a high enough portion of my friends are queer and/or rape survivors and/or people of color that any Trump supporter would know to keep very quiet around all of us.
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Re: 1761: "Blame"

Postby Sheikh al-Majaneen » Sat Nov 19, 2016 1:40 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
Sheikh al-Majaneen wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:I don't go to parties full of shitty people who vote for rapists and homophobes, so actually I'm pretty okay at parties.
Not as far as you know, but with an attitude like that, I can see why you'd be left in the dark.
More like, a high enough portion of my friends are queer and/or rape survivors and/or people of color that any Trump supporter would know to keep very quiet around all of us.

What I hear when I see "everyone who voted for Trump is a shitty person" is somebody calling nearly my entire family a bunch of shitty people for having priorities orthogonal to--not counter to--yours. Some of them despise the man but voted for him anyway in the general election because holy shit look at his competition. So, fuck you for that. Much like most everyone else, they are largely decent people.

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Re: 1761: "Blame"

Postby gmalivuk » Sat Nov 19, 2016 2:25 am UTC

Sheikh al-Majaneen wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:
Sheikh al-Majaneen wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:I don't go to parties full of shitty people who vote for rapists and homophobes, so actually I'm pretty okay at parties.
Not as far as you know, but with an attitude like that, I can see why you'd be left in the dark.
More like, a high enough portion of my friends are queer and/or rape survivors and/or people of color that any Trump supporter would know to keep very quiet around all of us.

What I hear when I see "everyone who voted for Trump is a shitty person" is somebody calling nearly my entire family a bunch of shitty people for having priorities orthogonal to--not counter to--yours. Some of them despise the man but voted for him anyway in the general election because holy shit look at his competition. So, fuck you for that. Much like most everyone else, they are largely decent people.
They didn't mind the racism or the xenophobia or the ableism or the advocacy of violence or the misogyny or the bragging about sexual assault, or the homophobia of his running mate, enough not to vote for him.

I do not care at all if they are your family, they made a shitty decision that put a lot of people in real danger. Whatever they or you tell yourselves about your "decency" to help you get to sleep at night, they significantly increased the chances of people in my family getting attacked or deported or left without healthcare. I'm not going to call them polite names after that and pretend it was just a "difference of opinion".

Your family put my family in danger, and I called your family shitty for it. The two are far from equivalent.
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Re: 1761: "Blame"

Postby Pfhorrest » Sat Nov 19, 2016 2:40 am UTC

As I said in an earlier thread: you don't personally have to want to gas the Jews to make voting for Hitler a black mark on your character. It's bad enough that you find his desire to do so not terrible enough to oppose him.
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Re: 1761: "Blame"

Postby Flumble » Sat Nov 19, 2016 2:57 am UTC

StCredZero wrote:Version control programs and IDEs have "Blame," so why not social media apps?

They do! Everything you say on social media is tagged with your name. And no one ever collaborates on something, so what's yours stays yours. (at least not in the sense of regular projects where you edit parts (that are not necessarily yours) and stick the parts together in a meaningful way to produce a result)
Either that or I'm ignorant about the possibilities of facebook/twitter/whatsapp/tumblr/google+/whatever.

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Re: 1761: "Blame"

Postby Sheikh al-Majaneen » Sat Nov 19, 2016 3:25 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
Sheikh al-Majaneen wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:
Sheikh al-Majaneen wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:I don't go to parties full of shitty people who vote for rapists and homophobes, so actually I'm pretty okay at parties.
Not as far as you know, but with an attitude like that, I can see why you'd be left in the dark.
More like, a high enough portion of my friends are queer and/or rape survivors and/or people of color that any Trump supporter would know to keep very quiet around all of us.

What I hear when I see "everyone who voted for Trump is a shitty person" is somebody calling nearly my entire family a bunch of shitty people for having priorities orthogonal to--not counter to--yours. Some of them despise the man but voted for him anyway in the general election because holy shit look at his competition. So, fuck you for that. Much like most everyone else, they are largely decent people.
They didn't mind the racism or the xenophobia or the ableism or the advocacy of violence or the misogyny or the bragging about sexual assault, or the homophobia of his running mate, enough not to vote for him.

I do not care at all if they are your family, they made a shitty decision that put a lot of people in real danger. Whatever they or you tell yourselves about your "decency" to help you get to sleep at night, they significantly increased the chances of people in my family getting attacked or deported or left without healthcare. I'm not going to call them polite names after that and pretend it was just a "difference of opinion".

Your family put my family in danger, and I called your family shitty for it. The two are far from equivalent.

Sure, but a vote for Hillary Clinton, big fan of Henry Kissinger, was a vote for a woman who advocated for and participated in the decapitation of multiple governments, abandoning the countries in the ensuing chaos. How many have died in Iraq, which she voted for? How many died in Libya? How many more would be dying in Syria had most Americans not shouted down that terrible idea? Do they not matter? How many people would die if Ukraine joins NATO? Do none of these people matter? Considering the darkness in human psychology and game theory, I fear the death toll from that last could possibly have stretched well into the billions, including you and all your friends and family. And me and all mine as well.

Admittedly, those were my reasons, not my family's, for not voting for her; theirs were largely economic, to the extent that we even talked about it. My reasons for not voting for Trump were somewhat along the lines of yours, but also because his potential clumsiness in foreign policy was as much in question as hers. However, in issues of social relations, there are far more people to appeal to and convince with the power to change things, than there are in issues of war.

Your friends and family are in no danger from the government under a Trump administration, though. All the worst things he promised in the debates will be tempered by the people he is hiring to run his government, and he will deny having ever said them. For a few brief moments, the jackasses who think 'the Trump train' (eugh) means they can do whatever they please will attempt to do so and learn very hard lessons (except you live in Massachusetts IIRC, so they will almost certainly be fine). Anyway, this new president is the one who defended Planned Parenthood in the middle of the Republican debates last year (listen as he talks out both sides of his mouth, or whatever the idiom is), and held up a rainbow flag during the RNC...and was cheered. I have little faith in him being a good president, but he will probably not be as bad as he is made out to be. The only thing I'm really worried about with him in there is climate change.
Last edited by Sheikh al-Majaneen on Sat Nov 19, 2016 3:29 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 1761: "Blame"

Postby gmalivuk » Sat Nov 19, 2016 3:29 am UTC

Sheikh al-Majaneen wrote:All the worst things he promised in the debates will be tempered by the people he is hiring to run his government
Have you paid literally any attention at all to who some of those people are? You think they'll temper Trump?
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Re: 1761: "Blame"

Postby Sheikh al-Majaneen » Sat Nov 19, 2016 3:34 am UTC

Why am I not surprised that the moment foreign policy comes up, your eyes glazed over. It's not like we don't live on the same planet with 7.X billion other human beings in nearly two hundred other countries, some of which are powerful, all of which have their own goals and aspirations.

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Re: 1761: "Blame"

Postby gmalivuk » Sat Nov 19, 2016 3:40 am UTC

I responded to the part of your post where you responded to me. (Incidentally I didn't like Clinton's hawkishness any more than the next person, but billions? Really?)

Do you really think the extremists Trump has hired are going to have a moderating influence on his policy?
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Re: 1761: "Blame"

Postby The Great Hippo » Sat Nov 19, 2016 3:48 am UTC

Sheikh al-Majaneen wrote:Sure, but a vote for Hillary Clinton, big fan of Henry Kissinger, was a vote for a woman who advocated for and participated in the decapitation of multiple governments, abandoning the countries in the ensuing chaos. How many have died in Iraq, which she voted for? How many died in Libya? How many more would be dying in Syria had most Americans not shouted down that terrible idea? Do they not matter? How many people would die if Ukraine joins NATO? Do none of these people matter? Considering the darkness in human psychology and game theory, I fear the death toll from that last could possibly have stretched well into the billions, including you and all your friends and family. And me and all mine as well.
So... don't vote for her? You clearly realize that you can vote for someone other than Clinton or Trump; doesn't your family realize that?
Sheikh al-Majaneen wrote:I have little faith in him being a good president, but he will probably not be as bad as he is made out to be. The only thing I'm really worried about with him in there is climate change.
So we should all just take it on your word that he's probably not going to be as bad as he looks, because he's probably not going to do the stuff he claimed he'd do? A vote for Trump isn't anything to get upset over, because it's pretty unlikely he'll kill all those Muslims he talked about killing? That's your argument?

I'm not going to pass judgment on anyone who voted Trump, but I also think it's pretty goddamn justifiable to pass judgment on anyone who voted Trump.

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Re: 1761: "Blame"

Postby Sheikh al-Majaneen » Sat Nov 19, 2016 3:51 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:I responded to the part of your post where you responded to me. (Incidentally I didn't like Clinton's hawkishness any more than the next person, but billions? Really?)

Do you really think the extremists Trump has hired are going to have a moderating influence on his policy?

Yes, billions. If you get into a hot war with a nuclear power like Russia, there is a risk that they will use their nuclear weapons.

My best guess for what Trump is doing now is trying to make it past the convening of the electoral college next month, making promises to Republicans that they will get what they want to reduce the chance of faithless electors. I won't consider it set in stone until his election is. I might be overestimating him; he's not the most honest of men. But at this point it is out of our hands and there's not much to do but put some hope in his dishonesty.

The Great Hippo wrote:So... don't vote for her? You clearly realize that you can vote for someone other than Clinton or Trump; doesn't your family realize that?

Sorry, I thought I mentioned that those were my specific objections to her, and that by and large, my family's reasons were largely economic (and that I didn't talk to them about it much--all I know for certain is that they thought Clinton was a worse choice). I voted for someone else.

Sheikh al-Majaneen wrote:I have little faith in him being a good president, but he will probably not be as bad as he is made out to be. The only thing I'm really worried about with him in there is climate change.
So we should all just take it on your word that he's probably not going to be as bad as he looks, because he's probably not going to do the stuff he claimed he'd do? A vote for Trump isn't anything to get upset over, because it's pretty unlikely he'll kill all those Muslims he talked about killing? That's your argument?

I'm not going to pass judgment on anyone who voted Trump, but I also think it's pretty goddamn justifiable to pass judgment on anyone who voted Trump.

He's already walked back on the denial of entry to Muslims. But as I said above...at this point there's not much left to do but put hope in his dishonesty and see what he does if the electoral college confirms him. Hopefully he walks back on climate change as well; the future is wide open and horrifyingly full of possibility.
Last edited by Sheikh al-Majaneen on Sat Nov 19, 2016 3:57 am UTC, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: 1761: "Blame"

Postby The Great Hippo » Sat Nov 19, 2016 3:56 am UTC

Sheikh al-Majaneen wrote:But at this point it is out of our hands and there's not much to do but put some hope in his dishonesty.
You realize that we're in a pretty fucked up place when the only way you can defend voting for someone is by claiming he's so dishonest he won't do any of the terrible things he said he'd do, right?

Like, I don't even know how to begin untangling that Gordian knot.

EDIT: And I still think it leaves plenty of room for judging the hell out of anyone who voted for him. If he's so goddamn dishonest, why did they support him anyway? I'm all for being non-judgmental, but I don't think somebody who holds Trump supporters in contempt is being ridiculous. There's plenty to feel contempt over, here.

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Re: 1761: "Blame"

Postby Sheikh al-Majaneen » Sat Nov 19, 2016 4:01 am UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:
Sheikh al-Majaneen wrote:But at this point it is out of our hands and there's not much to do but put some hope in his dishonesty.
You realize that we're in a pretty fucked up place when the only way you can defend voting for someone is by claiming he's so dishonest he won't do any of the terrible things he said he'd do, right?

Like, I don't even know how to begin untangling that Gordian knot.

I'm not defending voting for him there. I'm just saying that our part in the 2016 election is completed. There will be no do-overs, so there is little left for us to do but wait and see what happens next.

The Great Hippo wrote:EDIT: And I still think it leaves plenty of room for judging the hell out of anyone who voted for him. If he's so goddamn dishonest, why did they support him anyway? I'm all for being non-judgmental, but I don't think somebody who holds Trump supporters in contempt is being ridiculous. There's plenty to feel contempt over, here.

His dishonesty is my judgement.

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Re: 1761: "Blame"

Postby gmalivuk » Sat Nov 19, 2016 4:04 am UTC

Sheikh al-Majaneen wrote:If you get into a hot war with a nuclear power like Russia, there is a risk that they will use their nuclear weapons.
I sure feel much safer with the candidate Russia probably helped get into power.

russian-billboard.jpg


Sheikh al-Majaneen wrote:
The Great Hippo wrote:
Sheikh al-Majaneen wrote:But at this point it is out of our hands and there's not much to do but put some hope in his dishonesty.
You realize that we're in a pretty fucked up place when the only way you can defend voting for someone is by claiming he's so dishonest he won't do any of the terrible things he said he'd do, right?

Like, I don't even know how to begin untangling that Gordian knot.

I'm not defending voting for him there. I'm just saying that our part in the 2016 election is completed. There will be no do-overs, so there is little left for us to do but wait and see what happens next.
That's the same bullshit morriswalters was spouting in the N&A thread. Even if we couldn't do anything to prevent the inauguration (which is itself uncertain given the possibility of faithless electors, who presumably could be swayed by other things that happen between now and their vote), there is plenty of other things we can do other than politely waiting to see whether Trump is as dishonest as you hope. (And whether the extremists he's hired will suddenly decide to become moderates for no apparent reason.)

Also, you kind of are defending voting for him, in that you're arguing that people who voted for him can still be perfectly decent human beings.
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Re: 1761: "Blame"

Postby Sheikh al-Majaneen » Sat Nov 19, 2016 4:43 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
Sheikh al-Majaneen wrote:If you get into a hot war with a nuclear power like Russia, there is a risk that they will use their nuclear weapons.
I sure feel much safer with the candidate Russia probably helped get into power.

russian-billboard.jpg

Vladimir Putin is not a good man (good people rarely lack enough sense to hold such positions*). That said, I definitely feel less likely to die as a consequence of nuclear war. There's room for improvement, but also the breathing space required to think about what these improvements are and how to best make them happen.

*I originally meant positions like 'President of [Superpower]', but honestly, it works both ways.

That's the same bullshit morriswalters was spouting in the N&A thread. Even if we couldn't do anything to prevent the inauguration (which is itself uncertain given the possibility of faithless electors, who presumably could be swayed by other things that happen between now and their vote), there is plenty of other things we can do other than politely waiting to see whether Trump is as dishonest as you hope. (And whether the extremists he's hired will suddenly decide to become moderates for no apparent reason.)

Unless you are an elector, there is nothing you can do. I am not an elector so there is nothing I can do.

The earliest we will see what he intends to do is December 16. Perhaps at that point he will say "just kidding, climate change is real!". In my dreams. What else is there to do, go out and protest? The media won't cover it unless something gets broken, and then the narrative is one of "shame on you". This is what the ratings have shown works. This is a question I am asking honestly (and slightly drunkenly)--what meaningful, non-impotent actions can be done?

Also, you kind of are defending voting for him, in that you're arguing that people who voted for him can still be perfectly decent human beings.

I do not think that a person who voted for Hillary Clinton wants violent anarchy in distant countries to enrich certain corporations, though that was a virtual certainty with her. By the standards you have of Donald Trump's voters, what does that say about you, if you voted for her--even if you had reservations?

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Re: 1761: "Blame"

Postby The Great Hippo » Sat Nov 19, 2016 5:06 am UTC

Sheikh al-Majaneen wrote:I do not think that a person who voted for Hillary Clinton wants violent anarchy in distant countries to enrich certain corporations, though that was a virtual certainty with her. By the standards you have of Donald Trump's voters, what does that say about you, if you voted for her?
So, like -- you think it's credible to believe that a vote for Hillary puts more lives at risk than a vote for Donald?

I mean, I get it; Hillary is the status quo, and the status quo is horrifying. Don't vote for it. But you can't argue that a vote for Hillary Clinton is equivalent to a vote for Donald Trump -- like, what; do you sincerely think Hillary Clinton would destabilize the world more than Donald Trump would? Have you listened to this guy?

No matter how terrible you think she is, Hillary is still an experienced politician; Trump is a xenophobic demagogue with little to no impulse control. Which one of these people strikes you as more likely to start a war over a tweet?

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Re: 1761: "Blame"

Postby azule » Sat Nov 19, 2016 7:48 am UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:Which one of these people strikes you as more likely to start a war over a tweet?

Exactly. This is one of the reasons I voted for Hillary and would never vote for Trump. I don't have an affinity for Hillary, but this issue of his made the choice clear. If only we could have been more enthusiastic about Hillary then she would have won more than the popular vote. Her memes weren't dank enough. :(
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Re: 1761: "Blame"

Postby Spaceman_Spiff » Sat Nov 19, 2016 9:48 am UTC

gmalivuk, may I make a suggestion? On a piece of paper, write down some objectively measurable predictions for the next year or two of Trump's presidency. Put it in a safe place, look at it after a year or two, and see how accurate they turn out to be.

I have a prediction of my own. The Clinton Foundation will take in significantly less money now that it is clear that Bill and Hillary will not hold any official power (and Chelsea and the Clinton's friends won't anytime soon). If the Clinton Foundation really was a legitimate charity, it should get more money now that they can focus their attention on it, like Jimmy Carter did his. If it was mostly a way to funnel money to the Clintons in exchange for influence, then donations should drop considerably. We'll see what happens.

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Re: 1761: "Blame"

Postby Steve the Pocket » Sat Nov 19, 2016 10:49 am UTC

Stargazer71 wrote:You must be the life of every party you go to :roll: .

This is where the party ends.
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Re: 1761: "Blame"

Postby netsplit » Sat Nov 19, 2016 12:23 pm UTC

Sheikh al-Majaneen wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:
Sheikh al-Majaneen wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:I don't go to parties full of shitty people who vote for rapists and homophobes, so actually I'm pretty okay at parties.
Not as far as you know, but with an attitude like that, I can see why you'd be left in the dark.
More like, a high enough portion of my friends are queer and/or rape survivors and/or people of color that any Trump supporter would know to keep very quiet around all of us.

What I hear when I see "everyone who voted for Trump is a shitty person" is somebody calling nearly my entire family a bunch of shitty people for having priorities orthogonal to--not counter to--yours. Some of them despise the man but voted for him anyway in the general election because holy shit look at his competition. So, fuck you for that. Much like most everyone else, they are largely decent people.



If your family voted for Trump despite all the hateful things he says and does, they are deeply defective people, and you SHOULD be ashamed of them. What awful people they must be. Putin thanks them for their treason assistance too.
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Re: 1761: "Blame"

Postby ShuRugal » Sat Nov 19, 2016 12:46 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:You clearly realize that you can vote for someone other than Clinton or Trump; doesn't your family realize that?.


Most of America doesn't realize this. That's how we ended up with one monster elected to the presidency, and another came in second.

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Re: 1761: "Blame"

Postby Copper Bezel » Sat Nov 19, 2016 12:58 pm UTC

Well, requisite reminder that the US can only have two real candidates, in case anyone hasn't encountered that part.

But if you mean something else - I honestly can't find it surprising that few voters felt it was a perfect tossup between the two and would rather abstain from voting. But in part, that's because a lot of the people who felt that way were probably the same people who decided not to vote at all.
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Re: 1761: "Blame"

Postby gmalivuk » Sat Nov 19, 2016 1:21 pm UTC

Spaceman_Spiff wrote:gmalivuk, may I make a suggestion? On a piece of paper, write down some objectively measurable predictions for the next year or two of Trump's presidency. Put it in a safe place, look at it after a year or two, and see how accurate they turn out to be.

I have a prediction of my own. The Clinton Foundation will take in significantly less money now that it is clear that Bill and Hillary will not hold any official power (and Chelsea and the Clinton's friends won't anytime soon). If the Clinton Foundation really was a legitimate charity, it should get more money now that they can focus their attention on it, like Jimmy Carter did his. If it was mostly a way to funnel money to the Clintons in exchange for influence, then donations should drop considerably. We'll see what happens.

What purpose would my doing that serve? DO I need to quantify my prediction and then wait two years before I can say a VP who thinks it should be okay to torture LGBT people until they say they're cishet, and who thinks women should be forced to hold funerals for their miscarriages, will be bad for LGBT and reproductive rights? Do I need to wait and check my numbers before I can say a POTUS who called Mexicans rapists and drug dealers and who wants to create a Muslim registry will be bad for immigrants and Muslims? Or that one who wants more coal and a climate change denier to head the EPA will be bad for the environment?

Bad things are *already* happening to the abovementioned groups of people, at the hands of bigots emboldened by the election of a vocal and open bigot to the White House. I really don't see what use specific quantifiable predictions will be. Should I guess precisely how many people will be deported? How many will lose their healthcare? How many additional tons of carbon per capita the US will be producing by then?
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Re: 1761: "Blame"

Postby Sheikh al-Majaneen » Sat Nov 19, 2016 3:36 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:
Sheikh al-Majaneen wrote:I do not think that a person who voted for Hillary Clinton wants violent anarchy in distant countries to enrich certain corporations, though that was a virtual certainty with her. By the standards you have of Donald Trump's voters, what does that say about you, if you voted for her?
So, like -- you think it's credible to believe that a vote for Hillary puts more lives at risk than a vote for Donald?


A couple months ago, I finished a book that should have had no effect on my politics--Death's End, by the Chinese author Liu Cixin. It is science fiction, has nothing to do with politics, but gave me a good enough outside perspective of my values that I think I suddenly started understanding the mindset of neoconservatives like HRC in a way that is hard to put into words (though that might be because I'm sober).

To get to my point, I am also worried by how Donald Trump will use (and more specifically, if he would ruin) the American hegemony/the empire. I strongly considered voting for HRC at one point exactly because of this--she was more predicable than him and had experience handling it. If it's lost, it's not coming back; that power will most likely be held by people who have been struggling against liberal-democratic values within their own countries, and they would turn that power against us.

But I have to question how much the people who have been wielding American hegemony for as long as I remember value these liberal democratic values. In this regard there have been some policy changes when the presidency changes hands--trading torture for execution by drone, for example--but by and large they have been willing to act as if civil liberties are irrelevant (cf. Snowden leaks, Stingray, and so much more), behave as if regime change is a simple matter (cf. Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria), selling military hardware to police departments for use against...the people, &c. It almost seems as if these values have been traded away for the sake of continuation of the hegemony...in which case, what's the point? It disgusts me.

I mean, I get it; Hillary is the status quo, and the status quo is horrifying. Don't vote for it. But you can't argue that a vote for Hillary Clinton is equivalent to a vote for Donald Trump -- like, what; do you sincerely think Hillary Clinton would destabilize the world more than Donald Trump would? Have you listened to this guy?


Interesting question about destabilizing the world. Either choice was going to upset the stability of the world in some way. But the people who voted for Trump (in this case I'm actually talking about family) hope the resulting settling (after the unsettling) of the world to involve jobs flowing back into the US. If you lived in a place which had these jobs and lost them, and you know HRC is going to mean more of the same in even more places, why would you vote for her? What happens to these towns and cities when the only thing thing that keeps them afloat, giving truckers places to eat and sleep, goes to the machines?

No matter how terrible you think she is, Hillary is still an experienced politician; Trump is a xenophobic demagogue with little to no impulse control. Which one of these people strikes you as more likely to start a war over a tweet?

I do not think he would be allowed by the people who surround him and the people he trusts to start a war over a tweet.

I remember reading once about a night when Richard Nixon was drunk and decided to order the launching of the nukes at the Soviet Union. He was physically restrained by the White House staff.

netsplit wrote:If your family voted for Trump despite all the hateful things he says and does, they are deeply defective people, and you SHOULD be ashamed of them. What awful people they must be. Putin thanks them for their treason assistance too.

I'll repeat to you the same challenge I issued to gmalivuk:

It was a virtual certainty that a Hillary Clinton administration would lead to causing violent anarchy in distant countries in order to enrich certain corporations. By the standards you have of Donald Trump's voters, what does that say about you as a person, if you voted for her?
Last edited by Sheikh al-Majaneen on Sat Nov 19, 2016 4:12 pm UTC, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: 1761: "Blame"

Postby The Great Hippo » Sat Nov 19, 2016 3:48 pm UTC

Sheikh al-Majaneen wrote:But I have to question how much the people who have been wielding American hegemony for as long as I remember value these liberal democratic values. In this regard there have been some policy changes when the presidency changes hands--trading torture for execution by drone, for example--but by and large they have been willing to act as if civil liberties are irrelevant (cf. Snowden leaks), behave as if regime change is a simple matter (cf. Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria), selling military hardware to police departments for use against...the people, &c. It almost seems as if these values have been traded away for the sake of continuation of the hegemony...in which case, what's the point? It disgusts me.
That's understandable; it's an argument to reject both candidates. I am very open to this position.
Sheikh al-Majaneen wrote:I do not think he would be allowed by the people who surround him and the people he trusts to start a war over a tweet.

I remember reading once about a night when Richard Nixon was drunk and decided to order the launching of the nukes at the Soviet Union. He was physically restrained by the White House staff.
You understand the problem there, though, right? The actual lesson of that anecdote, true or false? That we put ourselves in a position where the only thing standing between us and nuclear annihilation was the White House staff's ability to physically restrain the president.

We should not be in a situation like that. We should not put ourselves in a situation like that. And yet -- here we are.

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Re: 1761: "Blame"

Postby Soupspoon » Sat Nov 19, 2016 4:23 pm UTC

I'm gonna ask you to expand upon your thoughts on the following...
Sheikh al-Majaneen wrote:How many people would die if Ukraine joins NATO?

...especially as to who would be to blame for any such a result.

You know, to bring this topic more or less back to the original subject of blame.

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Re: 1761: "Blame"

Postby Spaceman_Spiff » Sat Nov 19, 2016 5:06 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:What purpose would my doing that serve? DO I need to quantify my prediction and then wait two years before I can say a VP who thinks it should be okay to torture LGBT people until they say they're cishet, and who thinks women should be forced to hold funerals for their miscarriages, will be bad for LGBT and reproductive rights? Do I need to wait and check my numbers before I can say a POTUS who called Mexicans rapists and drug dealers and who wants to create a Muslim registry will be bad for immigrants and Muslims? Or that one who wants more coal and a climate change denier to head the EPA will be bad for the environment?

Bad things are *already* happening to the abovementioned groups of people, at the hands of bigots emboldened by the election of a vocal and open bigot to the White House. I really don't see what use specific quantifiable predictions will be. Should I guess precisely how many people will be deported? How many will lose their healthcare? How many additional tons of carbon per capita the US will be producing by then?


I have a few more predictions.
It will not "be okay to torture LGBT people until they say they're cishet".
Women will not "be forced to hold funerals for their miscarriages".
There will not be "a Muslim registry".
LGBT people will not be much worse off, and may be better off.
Women will not be much worse off, and may be better off.
Legal immigrants will not be much worse off, and may be better off.

As for what purpose will it serve, if you do that and find that you were wrong about a lot of things, then you might learn something in time for the next election.

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Re: 1761: "Blame"

Postby Copper Bezel » Sat Nov 19, 2016 5:36 pm UTC

It will not "be okay to torture LGBT people until they say they're cishet".
Women will not "be forced to hold funerals for their miscarriages".
There will not be "a Muslim registry".


He never said they would. The things you think you were responding to there weren't predictions, they were statements of known fact.
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Re: 1761: "Blame"

Postby Spaceman_Spiff » Sat Nov 19, 2016 5:46 pm UTC

Copper Bezel wrote:
It will not "be okay to torture LGBT people until they say they're cishet".
Women will not "be forced to hold funerals for their miscarriages".
There will not be "a Muslim registry".


He never said they would. The things you think you were responding to there weren't predictions, they were statements of known fact.


If those things don't actually happen, then you should question how factual those things were, how you "knew" them, and why you were worrying so much about them.
Last edited by Spaceman_Spiff on Sat Nov 19, 2016 5:50 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 1761: "Blame"

Postby The Great Hippo » Sat Nov 19, 2016 5:49 pm UTC

Spaceman_Spiff wrote:I have a few more predictions.
It will not "be okay to torture LGBT people until they say they're cishet".
Women will not "be forced to hold funerals for their miscarriages".
There will not be "a Muslim registry".
LGBT people will not be much worse off, and may be better off.
Women will not be much worse off, and may be better off.
Legal immigrants will not be much worse off, and may be better off.

As for what purpose will it serve, if you do that and find that you were wrong about a lot of things, then you might learn something in time for the next election.
What does it say about our country when the reasons we expect things won't get worse is because the leaders we've elected aren't powerful enough to make things worse?

We're not even talking about whether or not Trump wants to murder innocent Muslims; we already know he does (he's said so). We're talking about whether or not Congress will let him.

On a scale of 1 to 10, how fucked up is that?
Spaceman_Spiff wrote:If those things don't actually happen, then you should question how factual those things were and how you "knew" them.
The 'torture LGBT people until they say they're cishet' is actually something that's already happened, and might still be happening.

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Re: 1761: "Blame"

Postby morriswalters » Sat Nov 19, 2016 6:24 pm UTC

Copper Bezel wrote:
It will not "be okay to torture LGBT people until they say they're cishet".
Women will not "be forced to hold funerals for their miscarriages".
There will not be "a Muslim registry".


He never said they would. The things you think you were responding to there weren't predictions, they were statements of known fact.
At least in part, not factual. I linked out to Snopes which highlights the relevant law. There is currently no current Muslim registry. And like most things Trump says it may or may not happen. There are hurdles for listing Muslims already US citizens.
The Great Hippo wrote:What does it say about our country when the reasons we expect things won't get worse is because the leaders we've elected aren't powerful enough to make things worse?
It says that this is the same fucked up country it always was.

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Re: 1761: "Blame"

Postby Spaceman_Spiff » Sat Nov 19, 2016 6:33 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:What does it say about our country when the reasons we expect things won't get worse is because the leaders we've elected aren't powerful enough to make things worse?

We're not even talking about whether or not Trump wants to murder innocent Muslims; we already know he does (he's said so). We're talking about whether or not Congress will let him.

On a scale of 1 to 10, how fucked up is that?
Spaceman_Spiff wrote:If those things don't actually happen, then you should question how factual those things were and how you "knew" them.
The 'torture LGBT people until they say they're cishet' is actually something that's already happened, and might still be happening.


At this point, I really don't know what to say. You claim that Trump and Pence want to do these things, yet don't believe that they will actually happen. As time goes on, claims about them keep getting more hysterical and exaggerated. I asked for predictions that can be tested to try to bring reason back into the debate. Go ahead and freak yourself out if you want to, but please, remember what you say and see if it turns out to be justified. If it wasn't justified, remember that the next time you freak out.

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Re: 1761: "Blame"

Postby The Great Hippo » Sat Nov 19, 2016 7:06 pm UTC

Spaceman_Spiff wrote:At this point, I really don't know what to say. You claim that Trump and Pence want to do these things, yet don't believe that they will actually happen. As time goes on, claims about them keep getting more hysterical and exaggerated. I asked for predictions that can be tested to try to bring reason back into the debate. Go ahead and freak yourself out if you want to, but please, remember what you say and see if it turns out to be justified. If it wasn't justified, remember that the next time you freak out.
I think you might be misunderstanding me? I didn't say whether or not I think any of those things will happen (Did you confuse me with gmal?).

I'm just pointing out how messed up it is when our debate isn't about whether or not these public figures want to do these things -- they clearly want at least some of them... but rather, whether or not they'll be able to accomplish them (because they're not powerful enough to do all the things they want to do).

(Also, again: LGBTs have already been tortured until they confess to be cishets. That's already a thing; gay conversion camps are real, they've existed, and they may still exist. That's not a prediction; that's just a fact)
morriswalters wrote:At least in part, not factual. I linked out to Snopes which highlights the relevant law.
Yeah; as much as it irks me to agree with morriswalters, the 'force mothers to have funerals for miscarriages/abortions' thing seems to be a bit over the top.

It's more like 'have government agents dispose of fetuses in a respectful matter; if the mother wants to choose how/where, it's then their responsibility to pay'. I mean, there are plenty of reasons to say 'fuck Pence', but this doesn't sound like one of them.

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Re: 1761: "Blame"

Postby Tallest Skil » Sat Nov 19, 2016 7:14 pm UTC

netsplit wrote:If your family voted for Trump despite all the hateful things he says and does, they are deeply defective people, and you SHOULD be ashamed of them. What awful people they must be. Putin thanks them for their treason assistance too.


Learn what treason is. Then read Common Sense, the Federalist Papers, and the Constitution. Then apologize.

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Re: 1761: "Blame"

Postby addams » Sat Nov 19, 2016 7:48 pm UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:I feel sad. Bad things are happening.

If I were a better person bad things wouldn't be happening to me.
A good person could deal with these things and make them not bad,

or else not perceive these things as bad because they really aren't,
Spoiler:
I just wrongly think they are.
I am a monster.

oh, sigh...It is the Count our Blessings Time of Year.
Spoiler:
.......Count my blessings.
I not only have a keyboard.
I have an electric blanket. brrr...

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It is dark and cold out there, up here.
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Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
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Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
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