1781: "Artifacts"

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1781: "Artifacts"

Postby markfiend » Wed Jan 04, 2017 1:37 pm UTC

Image
Title text "I didn't even realize you could HAVE a data set made up entirely of outliers."

also known as the "shotgun plot"
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Re: 1781: "Artifacts"

Postby somitomi » Wed Jan 04, 2017 1:48 pm UTC

This reminds me of the time I had to draw the circle diagram of an asynchronous motor. The trickiest part is of course finding a circle "close enough" to about a dozen points on a sheet of graph paper.
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Re: 1781: "Artifacts"

Postby Whizbang » Wed Jan 04, 2017 1:50 pm UTC

I usually just go with the dartboard graphing method. Then we play a game of "Pin the Root Cause on the Dashboard" game.

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Re: 1781: "Artifacts"

Postby Carteeg_Struve » Wed Jan 04, 2017 1:58 pm UTC

Title text "I didn't even realize you could HAVE a data set made up entirely of outliers."


Of course. It's usually called "propaganda".

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Re: 1781: "Artifacts"

Postby qvxb » Wed Jan 04, 2017 2:22 pm UTC

"The data clearly shows ..." or "The data clearly show ..."? "Let the discussion begin", said John Smith aka Pedantic Man.

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Re: 1781: "Artifacts"

Postby cellocgw » Wed Jan 04, 2017 3:04 pm UTC

markfiend wrote:Title text "I didn't even realize you could HAVE a data set made up entirely of outliers."

also known as the "shotgun plot"


Dunno 'bout that -- unless you're using the gangster short-barrel version :twisted: a shotgun blast produces a pretty well-organized pattern on the target.
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Re: 1781: "Artifacts"

Postby markfiend » Wed Jan 04, 2017 3:22 pm UTC

cellocgw wrote:
markfiend wrote:Title text "I didn't even realize you could HAVE a data set made up entirely of outliers."

also known as the "shotgun plot"


Dunno 'bout that -- unless you're using the gangster short-barrel version :twisted: a shotgun blast produces a pretty well-organized pattern on the target.

:lol: take it up with Dr Asimov, it's one of his anecdotes I'm referencing :mrgreen:
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Re: 1781: "Artifacts"

Postby orthogon » Wed Jan 04, 2017 3:35 pm UTC

The question of how one should correctly "handle one's artifacts" immediately made me think of Rambling Syd Rumpo's Song of the Bogle Clencher. The relevant bit comes in the third verse, around 3:52:

Kenneth Williams as Rambling Syd Rumpo wrote:Although I'm over eighteen now
My bogles still I clench.
And I will flutter me artefacts
at any passing wench.


(I was sure it was "hammer me artefacts" but I'm probably confusing it with one of his other works).
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Re: 1781: "Artifacts"

Postby cellocgw » Wed Jan 04, 2017 5:15 pm UTC

markfiend wrote:
cellocgw wrote:
markfiend wrote:Title text "I didn't even realize you could HAVE a data set made up entirely of outliers."

also known as the "shotgun plot"


Dunno 'bout that -- unless you're using the gangster short-barrel version :twisted: a shotgun blast produces a pretty well-organized pattern on the target.

:lol: take it up with Dr Asimov, it's one of his anecdotes I'm referencing :mrgreen:


I take it you are thinking of this one?
AsimovShotgun.PNG
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Re: 1781: "Artifacts"

Postby Sableagle » Wed Jan 04, 2017 6:04 pm UTC

cellocgw wrote:
markfiend wrote:Title text "I didn't even realize you could HAVE a data set made up entirely of outliers."

also known as the "shotgun plot"


Dunno 'bout that -- unless you're using the gangster short-barrel version :twisted: a shotgun blast produces a pretty well-organized pattern on the target.


There's an upper limit on ball size for that. #4 buckshot or smaller does pretty well out of a 20-gauge and is it weird that I know that but don't know the maximum ball size that patterns evenly from the more popular 12?

Spoiler:
From theboxotruth.com and a 12-gauge shotgun,
#1 buck:
Image
#00 buck:
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image

From shootersforum.com and a 12-gauge,
#7½ birdshot:
Image

More in the cluster than outlying, but it's not a very even spread even then. You can pay a fortune to have your shotgun filled and polished and sculpted and whatever else by Purdey to get really even patterns and remove those blank spots so the clays can't slip through unscathed, but the #000 and #00 is never going to pattern evenly.

Other sites:
Image
Image
Image
Image


Quite how this translates to science in terms of your balls being too big to stack in your tube I can't say, but it could be considered an illustration of the problem with small sample sizes.
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Re: 1781: "Artifacts"

Postby mathmannix » Wed Jan 04, 2017 6:13 pm UTC

did anybody else think the objection was going to be about either
(1) his use of mixed tenses? "The data prove that..."
or
(2) the fact that he said that the data "prove[s]" rather than "indicate[s]" or something similar?
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Re: 1781: "Artifacts"

Postby The Snide Sniper » Wed Jan 04, 2017 6:35 pm UTC

Re: the title text: having a data set made entirely out of outliers is impossible. The most outliers you can have in a data set is half the values.
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Re: 1781: "Artifacts"

Postby cellocgw » Wed Jan 04, 2017 7:41 pm UTC

The Snide Sniper wrote:Re: the title text: having a data set made entirely out of outliers is impossible. The most outliers you can have in a data set is half the values.


[citation needed] The definition of "outlier" is usually based on data being N*sigma from the mean or median, but it doesn't have to be. Suppose some genius defines his outliers as being sigma/N away from the mean :twisted:
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Re: 1781: "Artifacts"

Postby markfiend » Wed Jan 04, 2017 7:49 pm UTC

cellocgw wrote:I take it you are thinking of this one?
AsimovShotgun.PNG

:lol: Let you google that for me

Yes indeed. Thanks.
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Re: 1781: "Artifacts"

Postby Quizatzhaderac » Wed Jan 04, 2017 7:59 pm UTC

I find that I very strongly associate this setup to pick up attempts. "Do you work for Fed-ex? 'cause you have a nice package!"
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Re: 1781: "Artifacts"

Postby Aubri » Wed Jan 04, 2017 10:47 pm UTC

Yow. I think the speaker is gonna need skin grafts after that burn.

qvxb wrote:"The data clearly shows ..." or "The data clearly show ..."? "Let the discussion begin", said John Smith aka Pedantic Man.

That depends entirely on whether you think information makes up a set of discrete elements, like apples, or the elements vanish into a uniform whole, like sand.

mathmannix wrote:did anybody else think the objection was going to be about either
(1) his use of mixed tenses? "The data prove that..."

Some people feel that "data" is plural.

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Re: 1781: "Artifacts"

Postby flicky1991 » Wed Jan 04, 2017 10:56 pm UTC

*sigh*

Some people call it plural, some people call it singular, neither is more correct than the other, use what you like. All that matters is that you communicate clearly. My first sentence there shouldn't have separated distinct clauses with commas like that, but you all knew what I meant - it wasn't a mistake that causes any confusion. The more I learn about the "correct" rules of grammar, the less I care.

I could already tell what people were going to be debating in this thread just from reading the strip. :P
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Re: 1781: "Artifacts"

Postby Omegaman » Wed Jan 04, 2017 11:19 pm UTC

The Snide Sniper wrote:Re: the title text: having a data set made entirely out of outliers is impossible. The most outliers you can have in a data set is half the values.

Hmm... Take a dataset where half the values are outliers. Filter the data to remove the inliers. What does your dataset now consist of?

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Re: 1781: "Artifacts"

Postby Mikeski » Wed Jan 04, 2017 11:54 pm UTC

1781 wrote:"I didn't even realize you could HAVE a data set made up entirely of outliers."

I've just derived the rule that proves all these exceptions!

Omegaman wrote:
The Snide Sniper wrote:Re: the title text: having a data set made entirely out of outliers is impossible. The most outliers you can have in a data set is half the values.

Hmm... Take a dataset where half the values are outliers. Filter the data to remove the inliers. What does your dataset now consist of?

Political polling, I think...
Last edited by Mikeski on Thu Jan 05, 2017 12:08 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 1781: "Artifacts"

Postby Soupspoon » Thu Jan 05, 2017 12:06 am UTC

flicky1991 wrote:I could already tell what people were going to be debating in this thread just from reading the strip. :P

Yeah, well... Cueball's graphs apparently don't have labelled axes, so... pbbbt...

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Re: 1781: "Artifacts"

Postby tofudragon7 » Thu Jan 05, 2017 5:10 am UTC

flicky1991 wrote:Some people call it plural, some people call it singular, neither is more correct than the other, use what you like. All that matters is that you communicate clearly. My first sentence there shouldn't have separated distinct clauses with commas like that, but you all knew what I meant - it wasn't a mistake that causes any confusion.


It's certainly a mistake that causes annoyance—and one that you'd rarely see a conference speaker make (people would probably point it out to them afterwards). Maybe in non-academic writing, data is often erroneously singularized, but in an actual statistics talk it's about as out of place as saying "As you can clearly sees from the data" or "We finds that the data show."

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Re: 1781: "Artifacts"

Postby Copper Bezel » Thu Jan 05, 2017 7:53 am UTC

tofudragon7 wrote:It's certainly a mistake that causes annoyance

You can be annoyed about whatever you damn well please, but when a thing is done with intention, it is by definition not a mistake in the sense meant here.

You came very close to a valid point in distinguishing the speaker's context, but to say at the same time that "data" as a mass noun in everyday speech is erroneous more than compensates for any credibility otherwise established.
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Re: 1781: "Artifacts"

Postby orthogon » Thu Jan 05, 2017 8:37 am UTC

Copper Bezel wrote:
tofudragon7 wrote:It's certainly a mistake that causes annoyance

You can be annoyed about whatever you damn well please, but when a thing is done with intention, it is by definition not a mistake in the sense meant here.

You came very close to a valid point in distinguishing the speaker's context, but to say at the same time that "data" as a mass noun in everyday speech is erroneous more than compensates for any credibility otherwise established.


Part of the problem is that there are two quite distinct senses of the word (though they're somewhat converging - see below). In the statistical sense of "experimental observations" it's traditionally treated as a plural in careful writing, although even there somebody wanting to refer to an individual observation is more likely to call it a data point or data item than a datum, which I suspect betrays a certain lack of conviction.

Then we have the sense "information stored and processed by a computer system". This is almost invariably treated as a mass noun. For me, the following get big fat linguist's asterisks:
  • How many data have you used this month?
  • Where do the data get stored in my phone?
In this sense you never see datum, since if you start peering that closely at computer data you're going to see individual bits, bytes, characters or whatever, not individual "data", whatever they might be. It's natural to think of data as being a synonym for information, especially since both are measured in bits, and since these days we all deal with such large quantities of it, its quantised, discrete nature is all but irrelevant. (Information itself isn't quantised anyway, of course).

The convergence arises now we have Big Data, in which, broadly speaking, computer data is treated as experimental data. The two senses, which have been coexisting harmoniously despite their difference in grammatical number, are likely to come into conflict. My money is on mass noun.
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Re: 1781: "Artifacts"

Postby Pfhorrest » Thu Jan 05, 2017 8:45 am UTC

Many records constitute much information.

Many data constitute much data.
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Re: 1781: "Artifacts"

Postby Copper Bezel » Thu Jan 05, 2017 8:55 am UTC

Nicely put.

Yeah, that's a really good point, orthogon. After posting, I was thinking similarly that "the data is on this flash drive" and "the data are on this flash drive" would be two different statements, in the same sense that it would be to a cartographer that "the datums are on this flash drive." And you're absolutely right that the fundamental reason is that there's no such thing as a digital datum, though I hadn't considered "data point" on the other side implying the same thing about questionable notions of atomism in the tables of figures. I'd also been thinking that the usage a person encounters more could easily slip into the other.

But I hadn't considered that there really are cases where it's ambiguous which sense of the word is being used - in fact, I've probably been thinking of "big data" as the "digital data" rather the than "data points" sense of the word up to now, just prompted by the computing context, when by all rights it should be the "data points" kind. But when you leave "data" about yourself wherever you go, that's the "digital data" kind, which then gets sucked up into someone's "big data"....
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Re: 1781: "Artifacts"

Postby PinkShinyRose » Thu Jan 05, 2017 10:47 am UTC

orthogon wrote:The convergence arises now we have Big Data, in which, broadly speaking, computer data is treated as experimental data. The two senses, which have been coexisting harmoniously despite their difference in grammatical number, are likely to come into conflict. My money is on mass noun.

I thought "big data" was a marketing term for large databases with data collected and analysed by computers for patterns and random significance. I would consider every entry in a database a datum, just like when they're entered into spss from some paper sheet. Who organises and analyses their data on paper these days? Nearly every datum is stored as computer data nowadays.

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Re: 1781: "Artifacts"

Postby ps.02 » Thu Jan 05, 2017 6:38 pm UTC

PinkShinyRose wrote:I thought "big data" was a marketing term for large databases with data collected and analysed by computers for patterns and random significance.

Yeah, seems to me "big data" means data viewed and analyzed only in the aggregate, where the individual data almost don't matter at all.

Then there's the phrase Big ____ meaning the political and economic clout wielded by corporations in a powerful market sector (Pharma, Organic, Telecom, Oil). In that sense I suppose you could complain that, e.g., "our privacy laws are all controlled by Big Data."

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Re: 1781: "Artifacts"

Postby x7eggert » Thu Jan 05, 2017 10:35 pm UTC

Carteeg_Struve wrote:
Title text "I didn't even realize you could HAVE a data set made up entirely of outliers."


Of course. It's usually called "propaganda".


Usually people don't know what "propaganda" means.

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Re: 1781: "Artifacts"

Postby orthogon » Fri Jan 06, 2017 9:17 am UTC

ps.02 wrote:
PinkShinyRose wrote:I thought "big data" was a marketing term for large databases with data collected and analysed by computers for patterns and random significance.

Yeah, seems to me "big data" means data viewed and analyzed only in the aggregate, where the individual data almost don't matter at all.


Surely what you just defined there is simply statistics?
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Re: 1781: "Artifacts"

Postby rmsgrey » Fri Jan 06, 2017 2:16 pm UTC

My understanding of Big Data is that it refers to scenarios where data that would historically have been processed by sampling and statistical analysis is instead crunched through in its entirety.

For example, the conventional approach to opinion polls is to carefully select a few hundred or few thousand people and treat their opinions as representative; the big data approach would be to contact everyone and add up the numbers directly.

It means using raw computational power rather than seeking insight and understanding of the data to enable you to manipulate it.

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Re: 1781: "Artifacts"

Postby Copper Bezel » Fri Jan 06, 2017 2:40 pm UTC

Just going by the Wikipedia page, it's characterized by a tangle of related characteristics, no one of which is absolutely necessary or solely sufficient to qualify a thing as "big data". Compare "reggae". But it seems that most of its characteristics are tools involved in, processes developed for, methods that become possible when, or applications made possible by, acquiring or analyzing very large data sets.

Which is to say that it seems to refer to data, which is big.

Or data which are many, I suppose.
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Re: 1781: "Artifacts"

Postby orthogon » Fri Jan 06, 2017 2:48 pm UTC

rmsgrey wrote:My understanding of Big Data is that it refers to scenarios where data that would historically have been processed by sampling and statistical analysis is instead crunched through in its entirety.

For example, the conventional approach to opinion polls is to carefully select a few hundred or few thousand people and treat their opinions as representative; the big data approach would be to contact everyone and add up the numbers directly.

It means using raw computational power rather than seeking insight and understanding of the data to enable you to manipulate it.


The Wikipedia page certainly mentions "volume" and specifically the use of non-subsampled data as one ingredient. But historically, you sampled the population mainly for economic reasons: you couldn't afford to ask everyone. The point is that with Big Data you either have the information anyway for some other reason (e.g. text of blog posts or newspaper articles), or your "respondents" are entering the data ostensibly or actually for some other purpose (e.g. social media interaction), or you are able to gather the data automatically (e.g. by using smartphone location information) when previously you'd have had to ask people.
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Re: 1781: "Artifacts"

Postby ucim » Fri Jan 06, 2017 2:51 pm UTC

It seems to me from usage that Big Data refers to the use of statistical techniques to extract information from a dataset that can only be extracted when the dataset is seaish enough, especially when subsequently using the information extracted to go back and predict individual data points based on tiny subsets of the relevant data.

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Re: 1781: "Artifacts"

Postby Flumble » Fri Jan 06, 2017 2:55 pm UTC

I'm not yet convinced "big data" isn't just a buzzword.

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Re: 1781: "Artifacts"

Postby ps.02 » Sun Jan 08, 2017 6:38 am UTC

Flumble wrote:I'm not yet convinced "big data" isn't just a buzzword.

Oh, it is. Even buzzwords have actual meanings, though, sometimes even fairly specific meanings. What makes them buzzwords is that many or most people who use one don't really grasp its meaning.

Anyway, let's move on to yuge data, tremendous data. We can collect and analyze it bigly.

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Re: 1781: "Artifacts"

Postby Eternal Density » Sun Jan 08, 2017 11:00 am UTC

See also: MtG Aether Revolt.
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