1790: "Sad"

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cupric
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Re: 1790: "Sad"

Postby cupric » Thu Jan 26, 2017 6:21 pm UTC

niauropsaka wrote:
At this point, i don't expect anyone outside the pro-life activist movement to even notice this year's protests.


A testable assertion. Cool!

I guess we'll see.

----------------

Edit

Politico front page just now:

Image

I could give other examples, but I think you get the idea.
Last edited by cupric on Sat Jan 28, 2017 3:28 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 1790: "Sad"

Postby cupric » Thu Jan 26, 2017 6:54 pm UTC

Quey wrote:If I'm missing something, and I'm really just experiencing cognitive dissonance, please, point that shit out.


If I understand you correctly, you are simply saying that you disapprove of Trump's appointments and policies, and that you think he will be unsuccessful and highly unpopular as president.

No cognitive dissonance in that. I'm more hopeful than you, but it wouldn't surprise me all that much if Trump crashed and burned now that he has to actually govern.

But that's a far cry from Trump being a monster, and his administration being a replay of 1930's Germany. Go listen to the Madonna and Ashley Judd speeches, or go read some of the more, ah, exuberant posts in the Trump presidency thread. That's cognitive dissonance.

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Re: 1790: "Sad"

Postby cupric » Thu Jan 26, 2017 7:42 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:Scott Adams blows a lot of wind, but don't let it fool you. Yeah, he was more correct on Trump than most other pundits. But his track record of prediction is still pretty lousy.


I partly agree. Especially about him blowing a lot of wind. I doubt I'd like him if I met him in person.

When I say his predictions have played out "astoundingly well", it might sound like I'm agreeing with all his hype and self promotion, but I'm not. What I mean is that his predictions were much closer to correct than can plausibly be explained by dumb luck. His track record of predicting the election was not great in the absolute sense -- which is true of everybody from Nate Silver on down -- but excellent relative to almost everyone else's.

Put another way, it would be astounding to me if Scott Adams managed to make as many correct calls as he did without his persuasion model of politics having some predictive power. He has earned the right to have serious people pay attention to his predictions of what happens next in the Trump administration.

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Re: 1790: "Sad"

Postby cupric » Thu Jan 26, 2017 7:58 pm UTC

niauropsaka wrote:
cupric wrote:For reference, can you give an example of an action that the new administration could take that you would consider monstrous?

Hamstringing EPA when pollinator insects just got declared endangered. Which he seems to have just done. So, yeah, I guess I can call him a monster now. Thanks for the term.


Oh, you mean this EPA?

Image

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Re: 1790: "Sad"

Postby Pfhorrest » Thu Jan 26, 2017 9:11 pm UTC

Context? Looks like a muddy river. Lots of rivers are muddy sometimes.
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Re: 1790: "Sad"

Postby WibblyWobbly » Thu Jan 26, 2017 9:19 pm UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:Context? Looks like a muddy river. Lots of rivers are muddy sometimes.

The vivid color of the river suggests mine pollution. The picture url suggests the Animas River, which was apparently polluted by EPA workers in 2015 when they removed a plug holding back mine waste (arsenic, cadmium, lead, aluminum, copper) that had been leaking for years. The spill was apparently ~3 million gallons, opposed to the 200-300 gallons/minute leaking out already over the course of years. So what is being suggested is that the EPA causes a far greater amount of harm trying to fix pollution than if they'd just left everything alone, I suppose, and that we'd be far better off without it. I think.

Source: 2015 Gold King Mine waste water spill - Wikipedia

Edits: trying to be more precise.

Edit-edit: Apparently the vivid yellow color is due to oxidation of dissolved iron? It would be almost pretty if it weren't lethal.

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Re: 1790: "Sad"

Postby netsplit » Thu Jan 26, 2017 9:45 pm UTC

WibblyWobbly wrote:
Pfhorrest wrote:Context? Looks like a muddy river. Lots of rivers are muddy sometimes.

The vivid color of the river suggests mine pollution. The picture url suggests the Animas River, which was apparently polluted by EPA workers in 2015 when they removed a plug holding back mine waste (arsenic, cadmium, lead, aluminum, copper) that had been leaking for years. The spill was apparently ~3 million gallons, opposed to the 200-300 gallons/minute leaking out already over the course of years. So what is being suggested is that the EPA causes a far greater amount of harm trying to fix pollution than if they'd just left everything alone, I suppose, and that we'd be far better off without it. I think.

Source: 2015 Gold King Mine waste water spill - Wikipedia

Edits: trying to be more precise.

Edit-edit: Apparently the vivid yellow color is due to oxidation of dissolved iron? It would be almost pretty if it weren't lethal.


from your own wiki link wrote:The EPA team returned in July 2015 to continue the work. They found that a landslide had covered the drainage pipes.[15]:42 When the slide was cleared, seepage was again observed at a level about 6 feet above the bottom of the mine entrance, which they thought was the level of pooled water behind the plug.[15]:46 They planned to excavate the entrance beginning from the level of the top of the mine tunnel down to what they took to be the top of the water, insert a pipe through that clearance, and drain the pooled water.[15]:47-52 DRMS and the EPA discussed the plan and came to an agreement. However, they had misjudged the level of the water in the tunnel.

At around 10:51 AM on August 5, the backhoe operator saw a spurt of clear water spray about 2 ft out of a fracture in the wall of the plug, indicating that the mine tunnel was full of pressurized water.[note 1] Failure of the plug produced uncontrolled release within minutes.[15]:52-59 Rushing to Cement Creek, the torrent of water washed out the access road to the site.[15]:60



So just so we're clear, one mistake negates all the good the EPA does?

One mistake putting out a fire, means we don't need a fire department. They just make it worse. Let it burn
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Re: 1790: "Sad"

Postby netsplit » Thu Jan 26, 2017 9:46 pm UTC

As an IT worker, this comic is a major GOMHR moment for me.
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Re: 1790: "Sad"

Postby Heimhenge » Thu Jan 26, 2017 9:48 pm UTC

WibblyWobbly wrote:
Edit-edit: Apparently the vivid yellow color is due to oxidation of dissolved iron? It would be almost pretty if it weren't lethal.


Had to take a course in limnology to meet my distribution credits, and don't remember that much, but unless the color balance is WAY off that is not a "muddy" river. Dissolved iron is a good guess from the color, and that means not much O2 left for the ecosystem. Looks dead to me.

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Re: 1790: "Sad"

Postby WibblyWobbly » Thu Jan 26, 2017 9:53 pm UTC

netsplit wrote:
WibblyWobbly wrote:
Pfhorrest wrote:Context? Looks like a muddy river. Lots of rivers are muddy sometimes.

The vivid color of the river suggests mine pollution. The picture url suggests the Animas River, which was apparently polluted by EPA workers in 2015 when they removed a plug holding back mine waste (arsenic, cadmium, lead, aluminum, copper) that had been leaking for years. The spill was apparently ~3 million gallons, opposed to the 200-300 gallons/minute leaking out already over the course of years. So what is being suggested is that the EPA causes a far greater amount of harm trying to fix pollution than if they'd just left everything alone, I suppose, and that we'd be far better off without it. I think.

Source: 2015 Gold King Mine waste water spill - Wikipedia

Edits: trying to be more precise.

Edit-edit: Apparently the vivid yellow color is due to oxidation of dissolved iron? It would be almost pretty if it weren't lethal.


from your own wiki link wrote:The EPA team returned in July 2015 to continue the work. They found that a landslide had covered the drainage pipes.[15]:42 When the slide was cleared, seepage was again observed at a level about 6 feet above the bottom of the mine entrance, which they thought was the level of pooled water behind the plug.[15]:46 They planned to excavate the entrance beginning from the level of the top of the mine tunnel down to what they took to be the top of the water, insert a pipe through that clearance, and drain the pooled water.[15]:47-52 DRMS and the EPA discussed the plan and came to an agreement. However, they had misjudged the level of the water in the tunnel.

At around 10:51 AM on August 5, the backhoe operator saw a spurt of clear water spray about 2 ft out of a fracture in the wall of the plug, indicating that the mine tunnel was full of pressurized water.[note 1] Failure of the plug produced uncontrolled release within minutes.[15]:52-59 Rushing to Cement Creek, the torrent of water washed out the access road to the site.[15]:60



So just so we're clear, one mistake negates all the good the EPA does?

One mistake putting out a fire, means we don't need a fire department. They just make it worse. Let it burn


Not in my view. Mine tailings dams have presented one of the largest hazards for heavy metals poisoning and ecological disasters in recent history. Take a look at a list of environmental disasters from the last century and you'll find at least a dozen huge tailings spills, most often caused by lax maintenance and an unwillingness on the part of mining companies to police their lethal wastes. Some actively engage in tailings dumps into rivers and other bodies of water - easier than building a shoddy dam that's going to blow out years down the line, eh? So we very clearly can't depend on the mining companies to police themselves - they're so shit at it, they might as well go around to any villages around their mines and shoot the villagers in the head.

The EPA made a huge mistake in the release of tailings from Gold King Mine. You can't dispute that. But a.) they wouldn't have had to be there if the mining companies actually gave a damn about the mine environment when they abandon a mine; b.) the fact that they were responsible means they're prepared to head up the cleanup, which now gets pushed to the forefront instead of being a peripheral issue in the area; and c.) as you say, one mistake does not a total failure make.

I presented that information to give context on cupric's post, which seems to be saying we can't trust the EPA because they screwed up once, albeit in a major way. I wholeheartedly disagree, but that's just me.

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Re: 1790: "Sad"

Postby gmalivuk » Thu Jan 26, 2017 10:13 pm UTC

cupric wrote:But that's a far cry from Trump being a monster, and his administration being a replay of 1930's Germany.
The platform as laid out on whitehouse.gov and his executive orders are extremely fascist looking.

Gag orders on scientists and others who might say things contrary to the administration's platform strikes you as business-as-usual?
A weekly list of crimes by immigrants? That doesn't strike you as at all, I dunno, Holocausty?

That you're too naive to see the writing on the wall doesn't mean it isn't there.
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Re: 1790: "Sad"

Postby WibblyWobbly » Thu Jan 26, 2017 10:15 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:That you're too naive to see the writing on the wall doesn't mean it isn't there.


Naive is a more generous interpretation than I would have offered.

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Re: 1790: "Sad"

Postby gmalivuk » Thu Jan 26, 2017 10:19 pm UTC

I just got home and haven't yet read much that pisses me off, so at this point I've still got a large reserve of restraint when it comes to dealing with that sort of head-in-the-sand fascism denier/apologist.
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Re: 1790: "Sad"

Postby Steve the Pocket » Fri Jan 27, 2017 12:19 am UTC

At this point maybe it would be better for everyone involved if we just made it an instant-ban to say anything positive about Trump; no productive conversation can be had with these cunts and most of them seem to just be randos registering specifically to drop in and argue with us.
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Re: 1790: "Sad"

Postby Pfhorrest » Fri Jan 27, 2017 12:24 am UTC

That sounds like the kind of thing a Trump supporter would claim their opposition would do. I'd like to always be able to put "falsely" before "claim" in a sentence like that, so please don't.
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Re: 1790: "Sad"

Postby gmalivuk » Fri Jan 27, 2017 12:28 am UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:That sounds like the kind of thing a Trump supporter would claim their opposition would do. I'd like to always be able to put "falsely" before "claim" in a sentence like that, so please don't.
Given that Trump supporters don't actually care about truth or falsehood, I'm not sure what difference it makes, if any.
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Re: 1790: "Sad"

Postby Tova » Fri Jan 27, 2017 12:34 am UTC

I came here to write about this comic made me laugh harder than any xkcd comic has in a long time. Maybe throw in a self-deprecating comment about how my mid-life crises may have fed into that.

And here I find the thread has quickly devolved into a bitchy political fight.

That makes me sad.

Going back to read the comic now. Reflect on some pseudo-philosophical nonsense about how everyone reads a different comic. And maybe write some new code.

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Re: 1790: "Sad"

Postby gmalivuk » Fri Jan 27, 2017 12:45 am UTC

Tova wrote:And here I find the thread has quickly devolved into a bitchy political fight.
cupric joined the forum solely to whine about "I'm With Her", and many of the rest of us have a strong preference for not seeing our country descend into overt fascism, so the combination is bound to cause some friction.
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Re: 1790: "Sad"

Postby cupric » Fri Jan 27, 2017 6:05 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
Tova wrote:And here I find the thread has quickly devolved into a bitchy political fight.
cupric joined the forum solely to whine about "I'm With Her"...


Guilty as charged! That comic was both overtly political and completely lame. The accompanying discussion thread was either going to be a political circle jerk or a political argument, and I do not apologize at all for helping to assure it was the latter.

This comic, on the other hand, was only tangentially political, but I still don't think I did anything wrong by mentioning Scott Adams' blog.

What I do apologize for is trolling niauropsaka. The result was 100% predictable, and since this comic actually is funny, the discussion thread deserved better than a pissing match. (Although please look back at the thread and note I'm not the one doing the pissing.)

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Re: 1790: "Sad"

Postby niauropsaka » Fri Jan 27, 2017 6:19 am UTC

cupric wrote:
niauropsaka wrote:
cupric wrote:For reference, can you give an example of an action that the new administration could take that you would consider monstrous?

Hamstringing EPA when pollinator insects just got declared endangered. Which he seems to have just done. So, yeah, I guess I can call him a monster now. Thanks for the term.


Oh, you mean this EPA?

Image

Defunding the EPA makes it work less well, and GOP administrations since the 1980's have tried to cut it back as "wasteful." But environmental problems were worse before.

Ever hear of a river catching fire?
https://savingtheplaces.com/2016/05/12/ ... and-today/

I'm old enough to remember when Love Canal was the horror story in the news.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love_Canal

I think EPA's staff and funding need to be increased threefold for a start.

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Re: 1790: "Sad"

Postby Thesh » Fri Jan 27, 2017 6:23 am UTC

cupric, have you tried emailing Randall a list of topics he's allowed to talk about? Perhaps he just doesn't know that you, personally, do not like his political beliefs.
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Re: 1790: "Sad"

Postby Euphonium » Fri Jan 27, 2017 6:27 am UTC

alanbbent wrote:Oh jeez. Look, I'm not happy about the election either. But what is it about Randall and so many other babies

lol

If shutting up and taking it is what you think characterizes adulthood, I'd hate to see the kind of world those adults would create.

that think it's a good idea to keep dwelling on it, complaining about it


Because that's how you keep a destructive force in check--by refusing to shut up about it, by keeping the pressure up.

and alienating approximately half of their reader/customer base


Yeah, because it's not like some things are more important than readership or anything...

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Re: 1790: "Sad"

Postby niauropsaka » Fri Jan 27, 2017 6:37 am UTC

Tova wrote:I came here to write about this comic made me laugh harder than any xkcd comic has in a long time. Maybe throw in a self-deprecating comment about how my mid-life crises may have fed into that.

And here I find the thread has quickly devolved into a bitchy political fight.

That makes me sad.

Going back to read the comic now. Reflect on some pseudo-philosophical nonsense about how everyone reads a different comic. And maybe write some new code.

I'm sorry. It isn't exactly a political comic, but I identified with it, and I've been angry about USA politics lately.
_

cupric, if you're going to "troll" an environmentalist about the EPA on a board full of science nerds, expect to be corrected at length. I have forgotten more about biology and environmental sciences than you have ever known, and I'm not even close to the most educated person here.

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Re: 1790: "Sad"

Postby Thesh » Fri Jan 27, 2017 7:13 am UTC

Euphonium wrote:If shutting up and taking it is what you think characterizes adulthood, I'd hate to see the kind of world those adults would create.


I hate to be the one to break it to you but that's kind of the world we live in today (and have for most of recorded history).
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Re: 1790: "Sad"

Postby niauropsaka » Fri Jan 27, 2017 7:57 am UTC

"That's just the way it is. Some things'll never change."
Hah, but...

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Re: 1790: "Sad"

Postby peterdavidcarter » Fri Jan 27, 2017 12:52 pm UTC

So basically Randal was doing the exact same thing and was too blind to see it, so she reflected it back at him. Women, eh! Who knew?

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Re: 1790: "Sad"

Postby JPatten » Fri Jan 27, 2017 1:17 pm UTC

I did not think of Seasonal Affective Disorder OR the political landscape. My honest first thought was that this was an Intensely personal comic.
THe narrative that went through my head was that this was Randall and his /gf (or is it wife now?) and that the cancer was making a re-appearance and had been for some time and that was weighing heavily. I can image that tha tcould be extremely draining emotionally and cause withdrawal emotionally, particularly if the diagnosis was grim or dire.

To be honest, if you had polled people on the right 8 years ago they would have been worried / upset about what might happen with the Obama Presidency. Now the lft is worried about a trump Presidency. We survived Obama, we will survive Trump. A president should nt have the power to make or break the country.
I am NOT a trump fan but I do not think I will descend into political arguments.
I will say that falling apart emotionally over someone who has a temporary job is problematic.

The best solution? Get congress and the states involved and have them wrest power back from the president. Reduce the power of the federal government and return it to the states and local governments. Government is best when it is accountable, and it is most accountable at the local and state level.

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Re: 1790: "Sad"

Postby Mutex » Fri Jan 27, 2017 1:19 pm UTC

JPatten wrote:We survived Obama, we will survive Trump.


I love how in your mind that logically follows.

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Re: 1790: "Sad"

Postby pogrmman » Fri Jan 27, 2017 1:44 pm UTC

JPatten wrote:I did not think of Seasonal Affective Disorder OR the political landscape. My honest first thought was that this was an Intensely personal comic.


This was my first thought as well. Maybe it's because I'm basically trying to ignore the deluge of politics everywhere, but my initial impression of this was not one about politics.

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Re: 1790: "Sad"

Postby markfiend » Fri Jan 27, 2017 1:57 pm UTC

JPatten wrote:To be honest, if you had polled people on the right 8 years ago they would have been worried / upset about what might happen with the Obama Presidency. Now the lft is worried about a trump Presidency. We survived Obama, we will survive Trump.

Yes but the right was worried about whether or not Obama was a Muslim or a Kenyan, afraid he was going to send in the Black UN Helicopters, none of which were realistic or rational concerns.

The left is worried about Trump destroying healthcare, women's reproductive freedom, freedom of the press... all of which he's already started to do.
JPatten wrote:A president should nt have the power to make or break the country.

No, "Should," maybe not... but he does.
JPatten wrote:The best solution? Get congress and the states involved and have them wrest power back from the president. Reduce the power of the federal government and return it to the states and local governments. Government is best when it is accountable, and it is most accountable at the local and state level.

Congress is controlled by the GOP. They will do nothing to rein Trump in.
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Re: 1790: "Sad"

Postby karhell » Fri Jan 27, 2017 2:22 pm UTC

pogrmman wrote:
JPatten wrote:I did not think of Seasonal Affective Disorder OR the political landscape. My honest first thought was that this was an Intensely personal comic.


This was my first thought as well. Maybe it's because I'm basically trying to ignore the deluge of politics everywhere, but my initial impression of this was not one about politics.

Same here. To me it was simply a comic about dealing with a depressed person.
Also, can we please keep the political discussion out of here ? There are dedicated threads for that.
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Re: 1790: "Sad"

Postby netsplit » Fri Jan 27, 2017 2:46 pm UTC

JPatten wrote:The best solution? Get congress and the states involved and have them wrest power back from the president. Reduce the power of the federal government and return it to the states and local governments. Government is best when it is accountable, and it is most accountable at the local and state level.


Any day now the Michigan state government will be accountable for it did to Flint.... Any day now...
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Re: 1790: "Sad"

Postby pogrmman » Fri Jan 27, 2017 3:58 pm UTC

karhell wrote:
pogrmman wrote:
JPatten wrote:I did not think of Seasonal Affective Disorder OR the political landscape. My honest first thought was that this was an Intensely personal comic.


This was my first thought as well. Maybe it's because I'm basically trying to ignore the deluge of politics everywhere, but my initial impression of this was not one about politics.

Same here. To me it was simply a comic about dealing with a depressed person.
Also, can we please keep the political discussion out of here ? There are dedicated threads for that.


Yep. This is pretty much what I thought. I also agree to try and lessen the politics in this thread -- I mean, I'm ok reading it, but it's not my favorite.

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Re: 1790: "Sad"

Postby JPatten » Fri Jan 27, 2017 4:03 pm UTC

Mutex wrote:
JPatten wrote:We survived Obama, we will survive Trump.


I love how in your mind that logically follows.


Would it have been better to say "We survived Bush, we will survive Trump?"

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Re: 1790: "Sad"

Postby JPatten » Fri Jan 27, 2017 4:06 pm UTC

karhell wrote:
This was my first thought as well. Maybe it's because I'm basically trying to ignore the deluge of politics everywhere, but my initial impression of this was not one about politics.

Same here. To me it was simply a comic about dealing with a depressed person.
Also, can we please keep the political discussion out of here ? There are dedicated threads for that.[/quote]

Having had episodes of depression and family who was diagnosed with depression I can state that the apathy is definitely a sign. Of course anger can come forth too. Anger at feeling so adrift

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Re: 1790: "Sad"

Postby Euphonium » Fri Jan 27, 2017 4:39 pm UTC

JPatten wrote:We survived Obama, we will survive Trump.


"We survived a nice steak dinner, of course we'll survive this cup full of poison and piss."

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Re: 1790: "Sad"

Postby Euphonium » Fri Jan 27, 2017 4:41 pm UTC

JPatten wrote:
Mutex wrote:
JPatten wrote:We survived Obama, we will survive Trump.


I love how in your mind that logically follows.


Would it have been better to say "We survived Bush, we will survive Trump?"


"We survived cold, tough steak and day-old bread, of course we'll survive this cup full of poison and piss."

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Re: 1790: "Sad"

Postby gmalivuk » Fri Jan 27, 2017 5:11 pm UTC

I think you're forgetting some of Bush's bullshit.

"We survived a cup full of piss, we will survive this cup full of piss and poison."
Unless stated otherwise, I do not care whether a statement, by itself, constitutes a persuasive political argument. I care whether it's true.
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Re: 1790: "Sad"

Postby Sableagle » Fri Jan 27, 2017 5:32 pm UTC

Heimhenge wrote:
WibblyWobbly wrote:
Edit-edit: Apparently the vivid yellow color is due to oxidation of dissolved iron? It would be almost pretty if it weren't lethal.


Had to take a course in limnology to meet my distribution credits, and don't remember that much, but unless the color balance is WAY off that is not a "muddy" river. Dissolved iron is a good guess from the color, and that means not much O2 left for the ecosystem. Looks dead to me.


I have a tube of paint called Cadmium Yellow that's almost exactly that colour.
Oh, Willie McBride, it was all done in vain.

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Re: 1790: "Sad"

Postby pscottdv » Fri Jan 27, 2017 7:16 pm UTC

It would actually quite an interesting study to see if, and how much, productivity in the US has changed since the election.


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