1810: "Chat Systems"

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The Synologist
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1810: "Chat Systems"

Postby The Synologist » Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:05 pm UTC

Image

Alt-text: "I'm one of the few Instagram users who connects solely through the Unix 'talk' gateway."

This is an exaggeration, but not by a huge amount. On my phone I've got and use to talk with people:
Skype
Line
WeChat
Slack
Messenger
SMS
WhatsApp

It is kinda ridiculous.

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Re: 1810: "Chat Systems"

Postby cjmcjmcjmcjm » Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:07 pm UTC

Now I have an xkcd I can use to help explain why I sometimes prefix IRC lines with T
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Re: 1810: "Chat Systems"

Postby AdShea » Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:08 pm UTC

The real question is how many of these are easily integrated into XMPP.

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Re: 1810: "Chat Systems"

Postby Mutex » Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:12 pm UTC

There should be a new chat system standard that handles ALL the use-cases.

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Re: 1810: "Chat Systems"

Postby leifbk » Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:13 pm UTC

He forgot Web forums.

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Re: 1810: "Chat Systems"

Postby AdShea » Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:21 pm UTC

And the comment section of certain blogs, but only after comment 300.

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Re: 1810: "Chat Systems"

Postby somitomi » Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:27 pm UTC

And this is why I was super grumbly about my sisters' idea of using a Whatsapp group chat for family communications. Why add another circle to this diagram on purpose?
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Re: 1810: "Chat Systems"

Postby jellybaby » Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:28 pm UTC

I want an app that draws a real version of this for my contacts

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Re: 1810: "Chat Systems"

Postby aldonius » Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:31 pm UTC

Interesting things going on with that Signal/iMessage intersection.

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Re: 1810: "Chat Systems"

Postby cellocgw » Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:42 pm UTC

So....

I use telephone voice calls. (and conference calls when forced to do so)
I use e-mail.
Once in a great while I use paper, folded, put into an envelope, and sent via U.S. Postal Service.

Guess I'm waaaaaay off this chart.
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Re: 1810: "Chat Systems"

Postby Ego » Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:55 pm UTC

My chat systems set diagram would consist mainly of huge, heavily overlapping skype and whatsapp sets. Hmmm. I can't remember exact moment when I stopped using email :roll:

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Re: 1810: "Chat Systems"

Postby Febrion » Mon Mar 13, 2017 5:41 pm UTC

This is how we get this...hi


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Re: 1810: "Chat Systems"

Postby Soupspoon » Mon Mar 13, 2017 6:11 pm UTC

The Synologist wrote:This is an exaggeration, but not by a huge amount. On my phone I've got and use to talk with people:
Skype
Line
WeChat
Slack
Messenger
SMS
WhatsApp

It is kinda ridiculous.


While I'm no stranger to all kinds of chat-type stuff, in the past, on my personal phone I currently use:

On my home computer, I use:

On all my work devices, I use:


...I find that it helps to be consistent. ;)

(Ok, I may occasionally SMS, but I wouldn't actually consider it a Chat system, any more than email is. And 90% of the incoming messages are from my service provider offering me things like 1000 free texts over the next week for £some. I've sent 14 texts since last November, and 11 of those were pocket-typed nonsense to the unlucky person who happens to be first in my address book. (I'm so, so sorry, Al...))

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Re: 1810: "Chat Systems"

Postby Keyman » Mon Mar 13, 2017 6:16 pm UTC

Ahh... so he's the one.

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Re: 1810: "Chat Systems"

Postby Flumble » Mon Mar 13, 2017 7:59 pm UTC

The real problem is: where do you store this contact information? All these programs like to use their own contact system, if at all.
You can get a pretty long way with an <information giant> account or exchange server that handles all your phone (and programs that interface with that contact book) and email contacts, but you'd have to write your own scripts for IRC contacts and AFAIK you're left to rot when it comes to things like facebook contacts.

Also where's Discord in this diagram? Do Randal and friends not play multiplayer games?

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Re: 1810: "Chat Systems"

Postby The Synologist » Mon Mar 13, 2017 9:08 pm UTC

Flumble wrote:The real problem is: where do you store this contact information? All these programs like to use their own contact system, if at all.
You can get a pretty long way with an <information giant> account or exchange server that handles all your phone (and programs that interface with that contact book) and email contacts, but you'd have to write your own scripts for IRC contacts and AFAIK you're left to rot when it comes to things like facebook contacts.

Also where's Discord in this diagram? Do Randal and friends not play multiplayer games?

Eh, I don't think many people would use Discord as a general chat service, which I think is the spirit of what Randall's talking about here.

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Re: 1810: "Chat Systems"

Postby bazza » Mon Mar 13, 2017 9:58 pm UTC

Flumble wrote:The real problem is: where do you store this contact information? All these programs like to use their own contact system, if at all.
You can get a pretty long way with an <information giant> account or exchange server that handles all your phone (and programs that interface with that contact book) and email contacts, but you'd have to write your own scripts for IRC contacts and AFAIK you're left to rot when it comes to things like facebook contacts.

Also where's Discord in this diagram? Do Randal and friends not play multiplayer games?


You can get on pretty well with things like BlackBerry's Hub. It sees into quite a lot of different types of account, and brings at least some semblance of order to the chaos... On BB10, Hub integrates all the major email service types, Facebook (before Facebook did away with it), Skype, SMS, MMS, BBM, Twiter, plus anything else if someone wrote a BB10 app for it and integrated it. It does the same for contacts too, and does a very nice job of recognising that 'Bob' on Skype is the same person as 'Robert Dwyer' in your Exchange contacts.

Now BlackBerry are Android-centric I suspect it's all down to them to make the Android version of Hub work with everything.

Running Hub does cause another problem. Without it you're checking some accounts regularly, and others you leave off glancing at the end of the day, etc. With it you get to know straight away when any of your accounts has got something new in it.

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Re: 1810: "Chat Systems"

Postby Crissa » Mon Mar 13, 2017 11:11 pm UTC

Gee, no one on IMO?

And I just walked past their offices on the other day when I visited a random Fry's. The one with the cactus and cowboy theme.

...And I use Discord as my 'basic chat of choice' now, although SMS is lighter but my SMS clients don't like each other so I have two SMS IDs.

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Re: 1810: "Chat Systems"

Postby RogueCynic » Tue Mar 14, 2017 3:08 am UTC

cellocgw wrote:So....

I use telephone voice calls. (and conference calls when forced to do so)
I use e-mail.
Once in a great while I use paper, folded, put into an envelope, and sent via U.S. Postal Service.

Guess I'm waaaaaay off this chart.


I may be one step closer to the chart than you. I have a phone, email and Skype account for one job. I also have access to a department account, so make that two steps. Though I do use Web forums for social chat once in a while...
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Re: 1810: "Chat Systems"

Postby Showsni » Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:05 am UTC

If we're just talking chatting with people, as in conversations, I suppose all I use (not counting face to face) is forums (fora?) and twitch. Maybe irc in rare cases.

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Re: 1810: "Chat Systems"

Postby orthogon » Tue Mar 14, 2017 9:56 am UTC

The way Facebook split out their messanger app from the main app is really annoying. My droid is constantly whinging about not having enough space and both apps are well over 150MB. (Seriously, wtf?) They really really want you to use the app, and have hobbled the mobile site so it redirects you to the Play store. Even requesting the desktop site only half works.

The thing is, I just don't understand why. What was wrong with having messaging right there in the main app? I realise they don't do things for my convenience, but I don't get what would be the data mining or advertising benefit of the split either.

It's a pain because people see you're active on Facebook so assume that you'll get their message. (Strangely, the messages get through to my smart watch, I just can't read them on the phone).
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Re: 1810: "Chat Systems"

Postby RCT Bob » Tue Mar 14, 2017 10:13 am UTC

orthogon wrote:The way Facebook split out their messanger app from the main app is really annoying. My droid is constantly whinging about not having enough space and both apps are well over 150MB. (Seriously, wtf?) They really really want you to use the app, and have hobbled the mobile site so it redirects you to the Play store. Even requesting the desktop site only half works.

The thing is, I just don't understand why. What was wrong with having messaging right there in the main app? I realise they don't do things for my convenience, but I don't get what would be the data mining or advertising benefit of the split either.

It's a pain because people see you're active on Facebook so assume that you'll get their message. (Strangely, the messages get through to my smart watch, I just can't read them on the phone).


I don't understand it either. I still remember the days when entire games fit on floppy discs. I just can't phantom why a simple chat app would require over 150MB of storage. The paranoid people will probably argue that most of that is spent on software designed to spy on the customers. I use WhatsApp and it's 45.4 MB on Windows Mobile. That's also ridiculously large for an app that has to do little more than send messages from one device to the other as well as some encryption, but only a fifth of Facebook Messenger apparently. If you compare it to some other app like Steam for Windows Mobile, that's only 10.4 MB. What do those Facebook apps have that costs so much storage?

Edit: Looking up Facebook app now in the Windows store. Approximate size is 292.5 MB, required RAM 2 GB. It's honestly ridiculous. Why does such an app require 2 GB RAM? Facebook messenger for Windows Mobile is approximately 229.7 MB. Doesn't display a RAM requirement in the store.

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Re: 1810: "Chat Systems"

Postby monban » Tue Mar 14, 2017 12:45 pm UTC

I'm a little surprised Randall doesn't seem to know about (or at least doesn't use) some of the more modern standards based communication protocols, notably xmpp (http://xmpp.org) and the upcoming matrix.org. They are explicitly designed to address the fragmentation problem by being open and interoperable. (Though whether or not they achieve this goal or simply become additional market fragments is admittedly a matter of some debate.)

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Re: 1810: "Chat Systems"

Postby BOLL » Tue Mar 14, 2017 1:07 pm UTC

I just have to add the wonkiest chat I've ever done.

This was more than 15 years ago, me and my cousin who lived in different towns wanted to play a networked game in multiplayer but it only had LAN support and no online. Our solution ended up being using a LAN tunnel over the internet, doing this the one using the tunnel lost internet access so that person only got access to the other person's LAN, but that meant the game was working.

The way we ended up communicating outside of the game was by creating numbered folders in a shared directory and writing our messages in the names of the folders. Simply refresh Explorer to see if the other person had written anything new.

The things one did... back then it was just a working solution to a problem though, didn't think much about at the time but years later it feels like a ridiculous concept to say the least.

(Edit: submitted this twice as I didn't register that the comment had to be approved the first time, whoops, not sure if the other one will appear or if it's been killed off already :P)
Last edited by BOLL on Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:17 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 1810: "Chat Systems"

Postby speising » Tue Mar 14, 2017 1:23 pm UTC

I assume there are tons of crucial resources, like animated meme gif's in those packages.

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Re: 1810: "Chat Systems"

Postby somitomi » Tue Mar 14, 2017 1:57 pm UTC

orthogon wrote: Even requesting the desktop site only half works.

Saying the desktop messenger half works is charitable at best. In all seriousness that thing is a mess now, when it doesn't lag, it freezes for seconds at a time and the page layout shifts around as you type. I honestly can't understand how it got past even alpha testing, considering it is worse than its predecessor. And this is the company trying to take over the internet (not that Google is any better)...
Last edited by somitomi on Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:33 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 1810: "Chat Systems"

Postby Envelope Generator » Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:12 pm UTC

Attempting to see if I have that Unix 'talk' gateway, whatever it is, apropos results suggested that my system has AppleTalk support.
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Re: 1810: "Chat Systems"

Postby ps.02 » Tue Mar 14, 2017 3:01 pm UTC

TRWTF is that this guy has over 50 people with whom he communicates in real-time chat. That seems absolutely bonkers to me. Not counting work, I have like a dozen. Active within the past week, about 5.

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Re: 1810: "Chat Systems"

Postby jc » Wed Mar 15, 2017 12:28 am UTC

The Synologist wrote:This is an exaggeration, but not by a huge amount. On my phone I've got and use to talk with people:
Skype
Line
WeChat
Slack
Messenger
SMS
WhatsApp

It is kinda ridiculous.

So you don't use the old "phone" system interface at all? (Actually, neither do I, muchly. I've made only one "phone call" in the past week.)
Last edited by jc on Wed Mar 15, 2017 2:26 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 1810: "Chat Systems"

Postby Graham Finch » Wed Mar 15, 2017 1:15 am UTC

A day later, this happens.

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Re: 1810: "Chat Systems"

Postby jgh » Wed Mar 15, 2017 6:18 am UTC

I use TALK wot I rote back in 1985. ;)

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Re: 1810: "Chat Systems"

Postby teelo » Wed Mar 15, 2017 1:51 pm UTC

Its missing a tiny empty circle for MSN.
Last edited by teelo on Wed Mar 15, 2017 8:22 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 1810: "Chat Systems"

Postby orthogon » Wed Mar 15, 2017 2:17 pm UTC

teelo wrote:Its missing a tiny empty circle for ICQ.

There is an ICQ circle. It contains only Ponytail, which is kind of sadder than it being completely empty! (Or do we assume that the author uses all of the systems?)
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Re: 1810: "Chat Systems"

Postby C.Paul.Butler@gmail.com » Wed Mar 15, 2017 3:27 pm UTC

I didn't see any reference to my first chat system: VMS Phone (ca 1984)

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Re: 1810: "Chat Systems"

Postby The Synologist » Wed Mar 15, 2017 4:14 pm UTC

jc wrote:
The Synologist wrote:This is an exaggeration, but not by a huge amount. On my phone I've got and use to talk with people:
Skype
Line
WeChat
Slack
Messenger
SMS
WhatsApp

It is kinda ridiculous.

So you don't use the old "phone" system interface at all? (Actually, neither do I, muchly. I've made only one "phone call" in the past week.)

You mean actually making calls to people? Aside from businesses I only do that if I have a question I need answered quickly.

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Re: 1810: "Chat Systems"

Postby chridd » Wed Mar 15, 2017 10:07 pm UTC

orthogon wrote:
teelo wrote:Its missing a tiny empty circle for ICQ.

There is an ICQ circle. It contains only Ponytail, which is kind of sadder than it being completely empty! (Or do we assume that the author uses all of the systems?)
I think we are assuming that the author uses all the systems (or at least, uses whatever's necessary); otherwise why would he care who uses what. Also she might talk to other people on ICQ who the author doesn't know.
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Re: 1810: "Chat Systems"

Postby rmsgrey » Thu Mar 16, 2017 4:28 pm UTC

I've used Pidgin since the days when it was called Gaim - at its peak, it supported every major chat system at the time - between the introduction of new systems, and certain major players "upgrading" to block third-party clients, it's no longer a panacea for chat-system overload.

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Re: 1810: "Chat Systems"

Postby Archgeek » Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:09 pm UTC

BOLL wrote:I just have to add the wonkiest chat I've ever done.

This was more than 15 years ago, me and my cousin who lived in different towns wanted to play a networked game in multiplayer but it only had LAN support and no online. Our solution ended up being using a LAN tunnel over the internet, doing this the one using the tunnel lost internet access so that person only got access to the other person's LAN, but that meant the game was working.

The way we ended up communicating outside of the game was by creating numbered folders in a shared directory and writing our messages in the names of the folders. Simply refresh Explorer to see if the other person had written anything new.

The things one did... back then it was just a working solution to a problem though, didn't think much about at the time but years later it feels like a ridiculous concept to say the least.

(Edit: submitted this twice as I didn't register that the comment had to be approved the first time, whoops, not sure if the other one will appear or if it's been killed off already :P)

BAHHahHaHa, that's great, and reminds me of an idiocy I engaged in with some co-workers at my last job: one of the systems we lab techs had to monitor and would log into at start of shift displayed a rolling activity log on the login page, including the usernames given for logon attempts, regardless of success. So one day we just started having a group chat in the form of attempted logons, with each line being a blatantly invalid username. It was crushingly silly.

rmsgrey wrote:I've used Pidgin since the days when it was called Gaim - at its peak, it supported every major chat system at the time - between the introduction of new systems, and certain major players "upgrading" to block third-party clients, it's no longer a panacea for chat-system overload.

Trillian and Miranda were like that, too. I'm frankly annoyed at those recent so-called upgrades, as it not only undermines my attempts to keep friends and familly on different services together, but means I'm probably going to have to get a whole new client for my ancient AIM account, which will put a big fat discontinuity in my chat logs.
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Re: 1810: "Chat Systems"

Postby hquene » Fri Mar 17, 2017 11:03 am UTC

Very helpful graph; I'd like to add my favourite Threema (https://threema.ch/en), which is also absent in the comments so far.


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