2050: "6/6 Time"

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Re: 2050: "6/6 Time"

Postby The Moomin » Tue Sep 25, 2018 8:59 am UTC

All you need is a piece of paper which what has the time writted upon it that it is.

What time is it Eccles?
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Re: 2050: "6/6 Time"

Postby Sableagle » Tue Sep 25, 2018 9:14 am UTC

Well, I can't top a goon Show reference, so have a holiday photograph.

niauropsaka wrote:I read this comic and thought, "Isn't this how local time already works in parts of Arabia?"


Image

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Re: 2050: "6/6 Time"

Postby djn » Tue Sep 25, 2018 9:32 am UTC

sotanaht wrote:I still don't see why we can't just have a single universal time. Sure 00:00 might be the middle of the day some places and the middle of the night others, but what's it matter? It's just a number. If "lunchtime" is about 04:00 because that's when the sun is at it's zenith for the day, what's it matter that the clock says 4? Basically we'd be mapping the sun to the clock, rather than mapping the clock to the sun, and I think that would work much better on a global scale.


May I interest you in Swatch Internet Time? It splits each day into 1000 beats (of 1.44 minutes), with 0 arbitrarily set to midnight CET, since that's the timezone of Swatch' headquarters. This makes @250 six in the morning for me in Norway, and sometime in the night for the different parts of the US - but since it's just a number, that's not a big problem. It was meant to facilitate international scheduling of meetings and the like; a meeting at @600 is at the same time for everyone, with no ambiguities. (Of course, international scheduling still needs to care about the respective local times; scheduling a meeting at 0430 local time is never entirely popular.)

Also, I just noticed it's 20 years old this year. Huh.

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Re: 2050: "6/6 Time"

Postby speising » Tue Sep 25, 2018 11:03 am UTC


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Re: 2050: "6/6 Time"

Postby cellocgw » Tue Sep 25, 2018 11:03 am UTC

JohnTheWysard wrote:There was a clock on the Berkeley campus at one point (until somebody stole it and graffitied "Time is running out!" on its plinth) that ran by getting an electric pulse once a minute from a master clock in another location.

I'd have kept the clock and replaced its controller with a Geiger counter triggered by cosmic rays, but shielded to send one pulse a minute... ON AVERAGE. Sometimes eight in a second, sometimes half an hour between.


in which case the clock would both be correct and incorrect until you observed it.
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Re: 2050: "6/6 Time"

Postby sonar1313 » Tue Sep 25, 2018 1:02 pm UTC

sotanaht wrote:I still don't see why we can't just have a single universal time. Sure 00:00 might be the middle of the day some places and the middle of the night others, but what's it matter? It's just a number. If "lunchtime" is about 04:00 because that's when the sun is at it's zenith for the day, what's it matter that the clock says 4? Basically we'd be mapping the sun to the clock, rather than mapping the clock to the sun, and I think that would work much better on a global scale.

Because if you're trying to decide whether to call someone in China, you have to sit there wondering if 10 PM is a rude time to call, or not. The "just a number" is what we use to know what people in different parts of the globe are doing.

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Re: 2050: "6/6 Time"

Postby jamesh » Tue Sep 25, 2018 2:01 pm UTC

That's even worse than the old system used in Saudi Arabia where sunset happened at the same time every day. That just caused daily changes to the UTC offset rather than changes to the duration of a fundamental unit of time.

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Re: 2050: "6/6 Time"

Postby SuicideJunkie » Tue Sep 25, 2018 2:38 pm UTC

sonar1313 wrote:Because if you're trying to decide whether to call someone in China, you have to sit there wondering if 10 PM is a rude time to call, or not. The "just a number" is what we use to know what people in different parts of the globe are doing.

Isn't it symmetrical with timezones? You have to come up with a number of hours for how far ahead/behind they are in their schedule, and then decide if it is a decent time to call.

Let your clock be: https://xkcd.com/1335/, minus the "6"s.

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Re: 2050: "6/6 Time"

Postby cellocgw » Tue Sep 25, 2018 3:26 pm UTC

sonar1313 wrote:
sotanaht wrote:I still don't see why we can't just have a single universal time. Sure 00:00 might be the middle of the day some places and the middle of the night others, but what's it matter? It's just a number. If "lunchtime" is about 04:00 because that's when the sun is at it's zenith for the day, what's it matter that the clock says 4? Basically we'd be mapping the sun to the clock, rather than mapping the clock to the sun, and I think that would work much better on a global scale.

Because if you're trying to decide whether to call someone in China, you have to sit there wondering if 10 PM is a rude time to call, or not. The "just a number" is what we use to know what people in different parts of the globe are doing.


That's why we're all going to move underground, with artificial daylight that goes on and off at the same time [blah blah no relativistic simultaneity] everywhere.
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Re: 2050: "6/6 Time"

Postby ijuin » Tue Sep 25, 2018 3:54 pm UTC

Obviously we need to fully decouple our activity cycles from the solar cycle and instead wake and sleep at the same time worldwide.

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Re: 2050: "6/6 Time"

Postby Mikeski » Tue Sep 25, 2018 4:00 pm UTC

ijuin wrote:Obviously we need to fully decouple our activity cycles from the solar cycle and instead wake and sleep at the same time worldwide.

Welcome to the life of the engineer.

Gotta work with people in the USA, Taiwan, Germany, and India? It helps to be non-24 to start with.

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Re: 2050: "6/6 Time"

Postby djn » Tue Sep 25, 2018 4:10 pm UTC



One of the things I appreciate with beats is that they never really tried to be your only time format; it's more of an intermediate form. Having to decide "is @160 a sensible time to call an Australian" would typically be resolved by converting back to local time. Of course, in a cyberpunk future where it takes over, you could also have a lookup tool for showing you directly when in the local day it falls.

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Re: 2050: "6/6 Time"

Postby sonar1313 » Tue Sep 25, 2018 4:33 pm UTC

SuicideJunkie wrote:
sonar1313 wrote:Because if you're trying to decide whether to call someone in China, you have to sit there wondering if 10 PM is a rude time to call, or not. The "just a number" is what we use to know what people in different parts of the globe are doing.

Isn't it symmetrical with timezones? You have to come up with a number of hours for how far ahead/behind they are in their schedule, and then decide if it is a decent time to call.

Yes, and I have a terrific idea for how to standardize that. First, we'll divide the world up into 24 areas, or "zones", one for each hour of the day.....

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Re: 2050: "6/6 Time"

Postby SuicideJunkie » Tue Sep 25, 2018 5:00 pm UTC

sonar1313 wrote:Yes, and I have a terrific idea for how to standardize that. First, we'll divide the world up into 24 areas, or "zones", one for each hour of the day.....
That's why I said symmetrical. Its just a mirror image of timezones.

The current timezone system wouldn't be so bad if people just stopped screwing around with it multiple times per year.

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Re: 2050: "6/6 Time"

Postby bazza » Tue Sep 25, 2018 9:42 pm UTC

This is effectively how the Japanese used to tell time: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_clock, albeit with 12 hours in a day instead of 24.

They got to make this work with mechanical clocks, by moving the hour markers throughout the year to compensate for the different length of a temporal hour on any particular day. There's even a Japanese guy (Masahiro Kikuno) making mechanical wrist watches where the hour markers move: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1moRfIXCfak (the important part is at 17 minutes in). He'll sell you one, but you have to tell him what latitude you live at so that he can fit the correct cam to give you accurate temporal hours time.

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Re: 2050: "6/6 Time"

Postby somitomi » Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:01 pm UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:
rmsgrey wrote:
Pfhorrest wrote:We should just fix reality to be more convenient for timekeeping. Make days/months/years the same ratio (24 days a month, 24 months a year? years about 1.5x longer than they are now so days stay the same) and each always the same length. Divide days, hours, and minutes by that same ratio too, so a second is 1/24^3 days.


While we're at it, we should probably do something about that circle constant...

Yeah, we could just give all of space a slight curvature and make tau exactly six!

I think we should start with repairing that entropy nonsense.
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Re: 2050: "6/6 Time"

Postby Truffant » Wed Oct 03, 2018 6:14 am UTC

If I recall some university lessons from a long time ago, there were some gnostic/jewish/babylonian sects who had a year of 12 months of 30 days each and the 4 or 5 remaining days for a full solar year were beyond time(keeping) or out of time. And after those days, the ordered year did start again.

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Re: 2050: "6/6 Time"

Postby rmsgrey » Wed Oct 03, 2018 2:08 pm UTC

Truffant wrote:If I recall some university lessons from a long time ago, there were some gnostic/jewish/babylonian sects who had a year of 12 months of 30 days each and the 4 or 5 remaining days for a full solar year were beyond time(keeping) or out of time. And after those days, the ordered year did start again.


I don't know about historical examples, but Tolkien used pretty much the exact same idea for Shire Reckoning. And it's a recurring motif in fantasy (where the calendar comes up at all).

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Re: 2050: "6/6 Time"

Postby ucim » Wed Oct 03, 2018 2:53 pm UTC

The Ecclesiastical Calendar of the OTT uses thirteen months of four weeks of seven days, and one "month" of either one or two days to realign. Of course there are different words for everything, but that's the OTT.

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Re: 2050: "6/6 Time"

Postby ijuin » Wed Oct 03, 2018 3:01 pm UTC

Truffant wrote:If I recall some university lessons from a long time ago, there were some gnostic/jewish/babylonian sects who had a year of 12 months of 30 days each and the 4 or 5 remaining days for a full solar year were beyond time(keeping) or out of time. And after those days, the ordered year did start again.


Probably Babylonian—the Abrahamic religions tend to dislike interrupting the holy cycle of Sabbath days, which has been the largest sticking point against adopting any calendars that have days that are outside of that cycle.

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Re: 2050: "6/6 Time"

Postby Pfhorrest » Wed Oct 03, 2018 4:44 pm UTC

The Jewish calendar does have a kind of similar thing, with months that track the lunar cycle precisely (which of course does not align precisely with the solar cycle) and a 13th month that's fiddly in ways I don't exactly recall to keep the whole thing from drifting wildly out of sync with the solar cycle.
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Re: 2050: "6/6 Time"

Postby Arcorann » Sun Oct 07, 2018 1:07 am UTC

Truffant wrote:If I recall some university lessons from a long time ago, there were some gnostic/jewish/babylonian sects who had a year of 12 months of 30 days each and the 4 or 5 remaining days for a full solar year were beyond time(keeping) or out of time. And after those days, the ordered year did start again.

You might be thinking of the Coptic calendar, an offshoot of the Egyptian calendar that is still used by the Coptic church today, or perhaps the Ethiopian calendar or one of the Zoroastrian calendars.

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Re: 2050: "6/6 Time"

Postby WriteBrainedJR » Sun Oct 07, 2018 7:11 am UTC

sonar1313 wrote:
sotanaht wrote:I still don't see why we can't just have a single universal time. Sure 00:00 might be the middle of the day some places and the middle of the night others, but what's it matter? It's just a number. If "lunchtime" is about 04:00 because that's when the sun is at it's zenith for the day, what's it matter that the clock says 4? Basically we'd be mapping the sun to the clock, rather than mapping the clock to the sun, and I think that would work much better on a global scale.

Because if you're trying to decide whether to call someone in China, you have to sit there wondering if 10 PM is a rude time to call, or not. The "just a number" is what we use to know what people in different parts of the globe are doing.

This problem could be solved pretty easily by having a single universal time and using email to schedule such international calls ahead of time. (Having a single universal time would also make scheduling international calls way easier, because instead of having to convert back and forth between "my time" and "your time," everyone knows their availability relative to "the time.") If something is urgent enough that there's no time to schedule it, then it's probably also less important to worry about being rude than to worry about the consequences of not calling. If there's not enough time to schedule back and forth but there is time to wait a few hours to make the call, you could get a rough idea of when is a good time by consulting a geochron or googling "typical waking hours in China."

I'm not sure if finding a live geochron or waking hours in China would be the easier google search in that hypothetical world, but it took me about five minutes to find a live geochron online and I didn't even know what they were called when I started out, so we're not talking about something horribly inconvenient.

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Re: 2050: "6/6 Time"

Postby Hafting » Mon Oct 08, 2018 12:08 pm UTC

sotanaht wrote:I still don't see why we can't just have a single universal time.


Ouch. Consider movies. People now doing things at really weird times - because it was made for/in another timezone. No way to notice if someone start their work day early or eat a late dinner - either of which may be plot points.

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Re: 2050: "6/6 Time"

Postby ijuin » Mon Oct 08, 2018 3:48 pm UTC

We already HAVE a universal time—it’s UTC—“Universal Time, Coordinated. However, most people like to use their own time zone for daily activities, and only use UTC for record keeping or deliberate international coordination.

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Re: 2050: "6/6 Time"

Postby WriteBrainedJR » Mon Oct 08, 2018 5:07 pm UTC

Hafting wrote:Ouch. Consider movies.

I only grant consideration to media if the writing is good. Maybe if Hollywood actually starts reading scripts again, and filming writers' best work, instead of deciding before hand what movies to make and then ordering scripts for them, movies will once again become worthy of consideration.

Hafting wrote:People now doing things at really weird times - because it was made for/in another timezone. No way to notice if someone start their work day early or eat a late dinner - either of which may be plot points.

Honestly, that's pretty easy to fix. In the first case, just show them arriving, and nobody else is there yet. The second is a tiny bit trickier, because it requires a piecemeal solution. Then again, variety is good. If the character is eating out, have a waiter come up and tell the character to go home because the restaurant is closing. For meals at home, if the movie is set during the summer (which seems to be the default setting for movies), just show that it's dark out. If it's not set during the summer, you could show the character's roommate/romantic partner/whatever dressed for bed, and possibly have them express surprise about how late the character is eating. If it's not summer, the character lives alone, and is eating at home, you can use the moon. If none of those fit, just include a line about how late it is.

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Re: 2050: "6/6 Time"

Postby Leovan » Mon Oct 08, 2018 5:34 pm UTC

Culture differences themselves already causes some of the shift between expected daylight and activity. I never understood how in all those American movies people had time to make that huge breakfast before work and it's bright sunshine outside. They even did chores in the morning. Then I moved to the US and I realized that in Switzerland I was used to going to work between 6-7 am and stores closing at 6pm. Now I'm told to come to work at 9am and many stores don't even open till 10am, but they're open till 10pm too. Now I have time to make pancakes too!

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Re: 2050: "6/6 Time"

Postby sonar1313 » Mon Oct 08, 2018 6:16 pm UTC

WriteBrainedJR wrote:
sonar1313 wrote:
sotanaht wrote:I still don't see why we can't just have a single universal time. Sure 00:00 might be the middle of the day some places and the middle of the night others, but what's it matter? It's just a number. If "lunchtime" is about 04:00 because that's when the sun is at it's zenith for the day, what's it matter that the clock says 4? Basically we'd be mapping the sun to the clock, rather than mapping the clock to the sun, and I think that would work much better on a global scale.

Because if you're trying to decide whether to call someone in China, you have to sit there wondering if 10 PM is a rude time to call, or not. The "just a number" is what we use to know what people in different parts of the globe are doing.

This problem could be solved pretty easily by having a single universal time and using email to schedule such international calls ahead of time. (Having a single universal time would also make scheduling international calls way easier, because instead of having to convert back and forth between "my time" and "your time," everyone knows their availability relative to "the time.") If something is urgent enough that there's no time to schedule it, then it's probably also less important to worry about being rude than to worry about the consequences of not calling. If there's not enough time to schedule back and forth but there is time to wait a few hours to make the call, you could get a rough idea of when is a good time by consulting a geochron or googling "typical waking hours in China."

I'm not sure if finding a live geochron or waking hours in China would be the easier google search in that hypothetical world, but it took me about five minutes to find a live geochron online and I didn't even know what they were called when I started out, so we're not talking about something horribly inconvenient.

There's still no reason to believe this is any simpler than looking up a time zone. Scheduling a phone call? Defeats the entire purpose of a device where you can immediately speak to someone anywhere in the world.

Everyone knows their own availability relative to "the time", but why would it ever be considered easier to look up someone else's availability than to simply look up a time zone?

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Re: 2050: "6/6 Time"

Postby WriteBrainedJR » Mon Oct 08, 2018 7:06 pm UTC

sonar1313 wrote:
WriteBrainedJR wrote:
sonar1313 wrote:
sotanaht wrote:I still don't see why we can't just have a single universal time. Sure 00:00 might be the middle of the day some places and the middle of the night others, but what's it matter? It's just a number. If "lunchtime" is about 04:00 because that's when the sun is at it's zenith for the day, what's it matter that the clock says 4? Basically we'd be mapping the sun to the clock, rather than mapping the clock to the sun, and I think that would work much better on a global scale.

Because if you're trying to decide whether to call someone in China, you have to sit there wondering if 10 PM is a rude time to call, or not. The "just a number" is what we use to know what people in different parts of the globe are doing.

This problem could be solved pretty easily by having a single universal time and using email to schedule such international calls ahead of time. (Having a single universal time would also make scheduling international calls way easier, because instead of having to convert back and forth between "my time" and "your time," everyone knows their availability relative to "the time.") If something is urgent enough that there's no time to schedule it, then it's probably also less important to worry about being rude than to worry about the consequences of not calling. If there's not enough time to schedule back and forth but there is time to wait a few hours to make the call, you could get a rough idea of when is a good time by consulting a geochron or googling "typical waking hours in China."

I'm not sure if finding a live geochron or waking hours in China would be the easier google search in that hypothetical world, but it took me about five minutes to find a live geochron online and I didn't even know what they were called when I started out, so we're not talking about something horribly inconvenient.

There's still no reason to believe this is any simpler than looking up a time zone. Scheduling a phone call? Defeats the entire purpose of a device where you can immediately speak to someone anywhere in the world.

Everyone knows their own availability relative to "the time", but why would it ever be considered easier to look up someone else's availability than to simply look up a time zone?

It's not easier, but it is better, because scheduling a call ensures that the person you want to talk to is available. A timezone just means many people in a place are available. It doesn't mean the person you want to call is available. Maybe he works an odd shift. Maybe he's using that time to do something productive, and your phone meeting would interrupt it for the sake of a phone meeting. Maybe he's having sex with his wife.

Also, for me personally, you have to schedule the call if you want to get me on the phone. If I get a phone call I didn't agree to take, I'm not going to answer it. If you actually want an answer from me, text.

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Re: 2050: "6/6 Time"

Postby rmsgrey » Mon Oct 08, 2018 9:50 pm UTC

WriteBrainedJR wrote:
sonar1313 wrote:Everyone knows their own availability relative to "the time", but why would it ever be considered easier to look up someone else's availability than to simply look up a time zone?
It's not easier, but it is better, because scheduling a call ensures that the person you want to talk to is available. A timezone just means many people in a place are available. It doesn't mean the person you want to call is available. Maybe he works an odd shift. Maybe he's using that time to do something productive, and your phone meeting would interrupt it for the sake of a phone meeting. Maybe he's having sex with his wife.


It might not mean many people are available either, depending on cultural differences - like calling early afternoon during siesta, or late afternoon after people have finished work for the day. Looking up their availability means you don't get tripped up by these quirks.

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Re: 2050: "6/6 Time"

Postby Mikeski » Tue Oct 09, 2018 12:42 am UTC

ijuin wrote:We already HAVE a universal time—it’s UTC—“Universal Time, Coordinated. However, most people like to use their own time zone for daily activities, and only use UTC for record keeping or deliberate international coordination.

So the Brits and a few African nations get to be on normal time? Bah! Temporal colonialism!

And Iceland and Portugal, I guess. But really, just because they have The Doctor doesn't mean they get to decide what time it is.

I suppose, going by population, either India's or China's time zone should be the standard one. India's being permanently half-an-hour off the rest of the world would be the funniest, so I vote for that.

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Re: 2050: "6/6 Time"

Postby Soupspoon » Tue Oct 09, 2018 8:06 am UTC

Mikeski wrote:So the Brits and a few African nations get to be on normal time? Bah! Temporal colonialism!
Right now we're on UTC+1.

But, yes, this is normal time. Even UTC+0 people are currently in error.

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Re: 2050: "6/6 Time"

Postby Keyman » Tue Oct 09, 2018 1:20 pm UTC

Mikeski wrote:
ijuin wrote:We already HAVE a universal time—it’s UTC—“Universal Time, Coordinated. However, most people like to use their own time zone for daily activities, and only use UTC for record keeping or deliberate international coordination.

So the Brits and a few African nations get to be on normal time? Bah! Temporal colonialism!

And Iceland and Portugal, I guess. But really, just because they have The Doctor doesn't mean they get to decide what time it is.


That's the best reason I've heard so far. I mean, if Time Lords shouldn't, who should?
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Re: 2050: "6/6 Time"

Postby rmsgrey » Tue Oct 09, 2018 6:26 pm UTC

Keyman wrote:
Mikeski wrote:
ijuin wrote:We already HAVE a universal time—it’s UTC—“Universal Time, Coordinated. However, most people like to use their own time zone for daily activities, and only use UTC for record keeping or deliberate international coordination.

So the Brits and a few African nations get to be on normal time? Bah! Temporal colonialism!

And Iceland and Portugal, I guess. But really, just because they have The Doctor doesn't mean they get to decide what time it is.


That's the best reason I've heard so far. I mean, if Time Lords shouldn't, who should?


Lots of planets have a Greenwich...


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