0509: "Induced Current"

This forum is for the individual discussion thread that goes with each new comic.

Moderators: Moderators General, Prelates, Magistrates

User avatar
Bani
Posts: 26
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2007 2:36 am UTC
Location: São Paulo, BR
Contact:

0509: "Induced Current"

Postby Bani » Wed Nov 26, 2008 5:07 am UTC

Forum moderators: feel free to delete this thread
Last edited by Bani on Wed Nov 26, 2008 5:19 am UTC, edited 3 times in total.

User avatar
rubber314chicken
Posts: 595
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2008 3:07 am UTC

0509: "Induced Current"

Postby rubber314chicken » Wed Nov 26, 2008 5:07 am UTC

Image
http://xkcd.com/509/

Alt Text: The MythBusters need to tackle whether a black hole from the LHC could REALLY destroy the world.


All I have to say is.... I hope eyebrows are involved, no, harmed in the making of this.
Last edited by rubber314chicken on Wed Nov 26, 2008 5:09 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
Official Thread-Jacker

SecondTalon wrote:Semen! I said semen! tee hee!

GodShapedBullet
Posts: 686
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 7:59 pm UTC
Location: Delaware
Contact:

Re: "Induced Current" Discussion

Postby GodShapedBullet » Wed Nov 26, 2008 5:09 am UTC

It's there now.

It sort of implies that after the MythBusters prove that the LHC is relatively safe, they will attempt to prove the myth by destroying the earth.

Anyway, people are kind of snickity about having their threads in the right format, so you might want to go over to the other one.
Last edited by GodShapedBullet on Wed Nov 26, 2008 5:10 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.

Doctor Kumquat
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed Nov 26, 2008 5:06 am UTC

Re: "Induced Current" Discussion

Postby Doctor Kumquat » Wed Nov 26, 2008 5:09 am UTC

Took long enough for someone to post this...

Anyway, keeping the Mythbusters in business is always good fun.

User avatar
niko7865
Posts: 536
Joined: Sun Jan 21, 2007 11:47 am UTC
Location: All over washington state, USA
Contact:

Re: "Induced Current" Discussion

Postby niko7865 » Wed Nov 26, 2008 5:09 am UTC

Why is no one posting, i thought it was awesome. I also think mythbusters should recreate the moon landing.

Image
Title text: The MythBusters need to tackle whether a black hole from the LHC could REALLY destroy the world.
http://xkcd.com/509/
21/m/athletic/white&nerdy/washington/straight/???
Image

VHBT
Posts: 50
Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2008 8:18 pm UTC

Re: "Induced Current" Discussion

Postby VHBT » Wed Nov 26, 2008 5:10 am UTC

Actually, there probably aren't too many people who would want to see a show based on the black hole idea. People would either be expecting the show to be very dangerous or very boring. Of course, there are probably a few people who would want it done just to scare the people in the first group.
Last edited by VHBT on Wed Nov 26, 2008 5:12 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
TheHand
Posts: 178
Joined: Mon May 05, 2008 8:03 am UTC

Re: "Induced Current" Discussion

Postby TheHand » Wed Nov 26, 2008 5:10 am UTC

There's going to be another season of mythbusters? Let us see if this myth is bustable!

GodShapedBullet
Posts: 686
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 7:59 pm UTC
Location: Delaware
Contact:

Re: "Induced Current" Discussion

Postby GodShapedBullet » Wed Nov 26, 2008 5:10 am UTC

VHBT wrote:The LHC idea sounds a bit scary but would probably make for a very boring show.


It would be the last show they ever make, as they would try and prove the myth and destroy the world.

User avatar
rubber314chicken
Posts: 595
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2008 3:07 am UTC

Re: "Induced Current" Discussion

Postby rubber314chicken » Wed Nov 26, 2008 5:11 am UTC

Doctor Kumquat wrote:Took long enough for someone to post this...

Anyway, keeping the Mythbusters in business is always good fun.

I didn't really feel worthy of creating the thread, and apparently so did the rest of the forum.
Official Thread-Jacker

SecondTalon wrote:Semen! I said semen! tee hee!

User avatar
SwissArmyAnts
Posts: 42
Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2008 3:43 am UTC

Re: "Induced Current" Discussion

Postby SwissArmyAnts » Wed Nov 26, 2008 5:12 am UTC

Well it took long enough...

Weird though, I was just talking to someone about the Van Allen belts and the Mythbusters.
Of course, it was actually a YouTube argument about the Apollo moon landings, but at least I have an excuse to say...

"RANDALL, GET OUT OF MY HEAD..."
CALVINIST ARGUMENT, a.k.a. TERTULLIAN'S ARGUMENT
(1) If God exists, then he will let me watch you be tortured forever.
(2) I rather like that idea.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

GodShapedBullet
Posts: 686
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 7:59 pm UTC
Location: Delaware
Contact:

Re: "Induced Current" Discussion

Postby GodShapedBullet » Wed Nov 26, 2008 5:13 am UTC

Hey, so is beret guy the new fall guy or something? I had no idea he was this gullible.

User avatar
Nasaniaru
Posts: 33
Joined: Mon Nov 03, 2008 5:21 am UTC
Location: Norton
Contact:

Re: "Induced Current" Discussion

Postby Nasaniaru » Wed Nov 26, 2008 5:15 am UTC

I was yet again a little overwhelmed by the science but I absolutely LOVED the punchline in the Alt Text. But yeah, MythBusters destroying the world after proving the LHC is harmless would probably be the best explosion since the Cement Mixer one. Although I do realize that if they were to create a circumstance that would imitate the conditions set in the myth, it would probably be more of an implosion.

But needless to say, another fantastic comic Randall.
A tree planted near the water bears fruit, but only when the time is right. Its leaves won't ever wither and it brings prosperity to all.

Move forward and continue to move forward. Do not come to a standstill. This is my Priority One!

User avatar
rubber314chicken
Posts: 595
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2008 3:07 am UTC

Re: "Induced Current" Discussion

Postby rubber314chicken » Wed Nov 26, 2008 5:17 am UTC

Nasaniaru wrote:Although I do realize that if they were to create a circumstance that would imitate the conditions set in the myth, it would probably be more of an implosion.

We'd also be too dead to see the episode air. So they'd have to do it in front of a live audience..... of THE WORLD!!!
Official Thread-Jacker

SecondTalon wrote:Semen! I said semen! tee hee!

Quantum Jack
Posts: 13
Joined: Wed Nov 26, 2008 5:11 am UTC

Re: "Induced Current" Discussion

Postby Quantum Jack » Wed Nov 26, 2008 5:18 am UTC

The alt-text does not appear on the "xkcd.com" page, but does appear on the comic 509 page... interesting.

User avatar
phlip
Restorer of Worlds
Posts: 7573
Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2006 3:56 am UTC
Location: Australia
Contact:

Re: "Induced Current" Discussion

Postby phlip » Wed Nov 26, 2008 5:20 am UTC

OK, so maths time: how strong are the deviations in the magnetic field caused by the solar wind, and how long would a piece of wire have to be to get a significant induced voltage from this?

Quantum Jack wrote:The alt-text does not appear on the "xkcd.com" page, but does appear on the comic 509 page... interesting.

Probably just a caching artefact... it works for me.

Code: Select all

enum ಠ_ಠ {°□°╰=1, °Д°╰, ಠ益ಠ╰};
void ┻━┻︵​╰(ಠ_ಠ ⚠) {exit((int)⚠);}
[he/him/his]

User avatar
joee
Posts: 227
Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2007 5:53 am UTC

Re: "Induced Current" Discussion

Postby joee » Wed Nov 26, 2008 5:20 am UTC

This thread was first, I wouldn't be so hasty, Bani.

I wonder if I can be bothered memorising that and spouting it next time someone asks me that question.
Hi glasnt.

User avatar
gryphusnick
Posts: 2
Joined: Wed May 07, 2008 7:57 am UTC
Location: India
Contact:

Re: "Induced Current" Discussion

Postby gryphusnick » Wed Nov 26, 2008 5:21 am UTC

rubber314chicken wrote:
Nasaniaru wrote:Although I do realize that if they were to create a circumstance that would imitate the conditions set in the myth, it would probably be more of an implosion.

We'd also be too dead to see the episode air. So they'd have to do it in front of a live audience..... of THE WORLD!!!


How does it make a difference either way?
are you suggesting a black hole might be created that will rob the earth of only CERN, or at max, europe, leaving the rest as such? hmmm... that's a thought.

User avatar
gryphusnick
Posts: 2
Joined: Wed May 07, 2008 7:57 am UTC
Location: India
Contact:

Re: "Induced Current" Discussion

Postby gryphusnick » Wed Nov 26, 2008 5:22 am UTC

Quantum Jack wrote:The alt-text does not appear on the "xkcd.com" page, but does appear on the comic 509 page... interesting.


guess it's fixed now, or was a one-off thing for QJack

FearfulFerret
Posts: 13
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2008 10:15 pm UTC

Re: "Induced Current" Discussion

Postby FearfulFerret » Wed Nov 26, 2008 5:28 am UTC

GodShapedBullet wrote:
VHBT wrote:The LHC idea sounds a bit scary but would probably make for a very boring show.


It would be the last show they ever make, as they would try and prove the myth and destroy the world.


They'd debunk the myth quite firmly, and then set out to replicate the results. They always show what it would take for the myth to work, after all.

Could it be that the man in the jaunty beret is Mr. Hyneman himself?

EDIT: no, it can't be. The comic clearly shows the beret either being transparent only on the left side of the head (unlikely) or simply that it is worn at a jaunty angle worn on the right side of the head, whereas Jamie always wears his on the left side of his head. I'm honestly suspecting that it's Jamie's evil twin or something.

User avatar
vodka.cobra
Posts: 371
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2008 6:50 pm UTC
Location: Florida
Contact:

Re: "Induced Current" Discussion

Postby vodka.cobra » Wed Nov 26, 2008 5:35 am UTC

Well, a black hole from the LHC... COULD... destroy the world, if the LHC COULD make a large and/or stable enough black hole. :P
If the above comment has anything to do with hacking or cryptography, note that I work for a PHP security company and might know what I'm talking about.

User avatar
SwissArmyAnts
Posts: 42
Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2008 3:43 am UTC

Re: "Induced Current" Discussion

Postby SwissArmyAnts » Wed Nov 26, 2008 5:45 am UTC

FearfulFerret wrote:
EDIT: no, it can't be. The comic clearly shows the beret either being transparent ...


Yeah, I was wondering about that too.

It looks like it's been fix'd though, so it's all good.
CALVINIST ARGUMENT, a.k.a. TERTULLIAN'S ARGUMENT
(1) If God exists, then he will let me watch you be tortured forever.
(2) I rather like that idea.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

User avatar
pyroman
Posts: 346
Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2008 5:35 am UTC
Location: University at Buffalo
Contact:

Re: "Induced Current" Discussion

Postby pyroman » Wed Nov 26, 2008 5:49 am UTC

I feel that if the mythbusters where to test the LHC thing about the black holes they would be able to throw together a test rig in about 20 min (cut down to a 30 sec time lapse scene of course) switch it on see that the eath was still around. then go hmm lets see what it would take to destroy the earth.... and then that would be the last episode.


additonally,

TheHand wrote:There's going to be another season of mythbusters? Let us see if this myth is bustable!


busting this one would result in a paradox as the only way for them to bust it would be to test it but in order to test it they would need to make another episode which means it cant be busted so either it cant be busted or captain kirk gets to watch more robots heads blow up.
They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin

FearfulFerret
Posts: 13
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2008 10:15 pm UTC

Re: "Induced Current" Discussion

Postby FearfulFerret » Wed Nov 26, 2008 5:58 am UTC

Yeah, the magical beret seems to have been fixed. It's still on the right (as in, wrong) side of the head, though. I thought it was the nihilist again, but I doubt he has much use for extension cords.

Also, it's not a paradox. It is simply inevitable that either the myth will be busted when they finish the next season or it will remain untested (fully, anyway) until it can be proven that it will never happen. And in that case, it probably won't be the Mythbusters that tested it.

DSDM
Posts: 112
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 5:14 am UTC

Re: "Induced Current" Discussion

Postby DSDM » Wed Nov 26, 2008 6:01 am UTC

GodShapedBullet wrote:
VHBT wrote:The LHC idea sounds a bit scary but would probably make for a very boring show.


It would be the last show they ever make, as they would try and prove the myth and destroy the world.


At the very least it would probably destroy Buster once and for all.

Carnildo
Posts: 2023
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2008 8:43 am UTC

Re: "Induced Current" Discussion

Postby Carnildo » Wed Nov 26, 2008 6:02 am UTC

phlip wrote:OK, so maths time: how strong are the deviations in the magnetic field caused by the solar wind, and how long would a piece of wire have to be to get a significant induced voltage from this?


Somewhere between hundreds and thousands of miles, depending on the flare.

ABCS_Firebird
Posts: 2
Joined: Wed Nov 26, 2008 5:35 am UTC

Re: "Induced Current" Discussion

Postby ABCS_Firebird » Wed Nov 26, 2008 6:04 am UTC

Its not exactly the same thing as in the comic, but an (atleast for german speaking people) interesting video about sun flares and earths magnetic field can be found here: http://www.br-online.de/br-alpha/alpha-centauri/alpha-centauri-erdmagnetfeld-2005-ID1207917447092.xml

In this episode he (a german prof for astrophysics) discusses what would happen if earths magnetic field disappeared. The interesting thing is: The protons and electrons colliding with earths atmosphere are differently slowed down resulting in potential difference and current, which builds up magnetic filaments in the earths atmosphere protecting us from the radiation.

Just for people who might be interested .. :wink:

GreenGlowingGoo
Posts: 1
Joined: Wed Nov 26, 2008 6:31 am UTC

Re: "Induced Current" Discussion

Postby GreenGlowingGoo » Wed Nov 26, 2008 6:35 am UTC

gryphusnick wrote:
rubber314chicken wrote:
Nasaniaru wrote:Although I do realize that if they were to create a circumstance that would imitate the conditions set in the myth, it would probably be more of an implosion.

We'd also be too dead to see the episode air. So they'd have to do it in front of a live audience..... of THE WORLD!!!


How does it make a difference either way?
are you suggesting a black hole might be created that will rob the earth of only CERN, or at max, europe, leaving the rest as such? hmmm... that's a thought.


No, they're saying that if they were taping it, cause we'd be killed by the black hole, without seeing the show. So if it's a live broadcast, we'd be aware of what they were doing and be there to know why the world is being destroyed as it happened.

zarquan
Posts: 1
Joined: Wed Nov 26, 2008 7:08 am UTC

Re: "Induced Current" Discussion

Postby zarquan » Wed Nov 26, 2008 7:14 am UTC

Interestingly, the theory in this comic is true. Granted an extension cord would be too short by several orders of magnitude to be affected, but the effect of induced current was first noticed on long distance telegraph lines.
http://www.spaceweather.gc.ca/cable_e.php
http://www.tgo.uit.no/saba/sabathesis/Intro.html

The actual instances of induced current are not caused by the spin of the earth though, but by the pressure of the charged particles pushing the magnetic field lines through conductors on the earth's surface. At least that's what I understand the cause to be.

therocket
Posts: 22
Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2007 4:34 am UTC

Re: "Induced Current" Discussion

Postby therocket » Wed Nov 26, 2008 7:34 am UTC

Anything to keep the Mythbusters around.

leifbk
Posts: 33
Joined: Wed Nov 26, 2008 7:24 am UTC
Location: Bærum, Norway
Contact:

Re: "Induced Current" Discussion

Postby leifbk » Wed Nov 26, 2008 7:37 am UTC

My first post on this forum:

If mankind ever decide to build a Space Elevator, the induction effect is probably one of the problems the engineers will have to overcome. The optimal type of building material (carbon fiber?) may even be super-leading, so I'd expect some very interesting electro-magnetic phenomenæ to happen.

TheBlackCat
Posts: 14
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 5:23 pm UTC

Re: "Induced Current" Discussion

Postby TheBlackCat » Wed Nov 26, 2008 7:44 am UTC

Having the mythbusters deal with this is not that implausible. Check out this book: Death from the Skies!: These Are the Ways the World Will End . . ..

And then look at who the sixth review on the book is by:
Adam Savage, from Discovery Channel's Mythbusters


Solar flares are chapter 2, by the way.

User avatar
BwaHaHa
Posts: 26
Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2008 4:37 am UTC

Re: "Induced Current" Discussion

Postby BwaHaHa » Wed Nov 26, 2008 7:48 am UTC

This is just a thought, but could the man in the white baret be the antithesis of Black Hat Man?

They seem to perceive the world in completely different ways. Plus; angular hat versus rounded baret, white versus black. Any others?
Image
Now there are three of them.
There are three ____.

User avatar
phillipsjk
Posts: 1213
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2008 4:09 pm UTC
Location: Edmonton AB Canada
Contact:

Re: "Induced Current" Discussion

Postby phillipsjk » Wed Nov 26, 2008 8:41 am UTC

This comic would explain so much (about conspiracy theories) except...

MythBusters doesn't do historical conspiracy theories as far as I know. There is nothing to test in a spectacular fashion.
Did you get the number on that truck?

User avatar
Patashu
Answerful Bignitude
Posts: 378
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2007 8:54 am UTC
Contact:

Re: "Induced Current" Discussion

Postby Patashu » Wed Nov 26, 2008 8:51 am UTC

My first thought upon reading this was 'surely if this were true the enormous power lines would be the first to have an effect'

Oh well.

serrath
Posts: 59
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 4:50 am UTC

Re: "Induced Current" Discussion

Postby serrath » Wed Nov 26, 2008 9:16 am UTC

Actually, chances of LHC creating a black hole AND destroying the world are null. For it to create a black hole, you have to buy into Hawking's theory, and if you do, thanks to Hawking radiation that black hole would evaporate almost immediately anyway. Funny enough, you wouldn't have to watch Mythbusters to know if the world ended or not, a quick check out the window might do the trick once they fix the damn thing.

User avatar
dennisw
Posts: 441
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2008 9:09 am UTC
Location: Appearing pro se AND pro bono!
Contact:

Re: "Induced Current" Discussion

Postby dennisw » Wed Nov 26, 2008 9:26 am UTC

Patashu wrote:My first thought upon reading this was 'surely if this were true the enormous power lines would be the first to have an effect'

Oh well.


They would. See this.
Try the Printifier for xkcd. You can now scale the comic between 50 and 150%.

I find these very useful: Common Errors in English Usage (web site) and Eats, Shoots & Leaves (book). You may, too.

e pluribus unum
Unleash unlicensed ungulates!

cyberblade
Posts: 73
Joined: Tue Jul 08, 2008 4:38 pm UTC

Re: "Induced Current" Discussion

Postby cyberblade » Wed Nov 26, 2008 9:57 am UTC

Took me a minute to dig this up, but here it is: http://www.leasticoulddo.com/comic/20081001

Still, the alt-text was funny too-and I'm sure it's something lots of us have thought about...

Edit: Is the guy in the comic stealing lines from the BOFH or is he the BOFH?

Carnildo
Posts: 2023
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2008 8:43 am UTC

Re: "Induced Current" Discussion

Postby Carnildo » Wed Nov 26, 2008 10:02 am UTC

leifbk wrote:My first post on this forum:

If mankind ever decide to build a Space Elevator, the induction effect is probably one of the problems the engineers will have to overcome. The optimal type of building material (carbon fiber?) may even be super-leading, so I'd expect some very interesting electro-magnetic phenomenæ to happen.


The current leading candidate for space elevator material, nanotube/epoxy ribbon, is an insulator. The only electrical effect you'd need to deal with is electrostatic buildup from various sources, and that will probably dissipate on its own.

Free-orbiting conducting tethers, on the other hand, have real potential. If you apply a voltage to the tether, it generates thrust, allowing it to move to a higher orbit; conversely, if you attach an electrical load to it, the tether will generate electricity while moving to a lower orbit.

Zeromaru
Posts: 1
Joined: Wed Nov 26, 2008 11:31 am UTC

Re: "Induced Current" Discussion

Postby Zeromaru » Wed Nov 26, 2008 11:36 am UTC

Regarding the alt text, I coincidentally recently wrote a paper that involved a section on micro black holes such as the ones that might be produced by the LHC.

I calculated that the Hawking temperature of one such black hole would be on the order of 10^30 kelvin (that's 30 zeros people). Very hot, yes, but the black hole of that size itself only has about 2 gigajoules internal energy, which is relatively tame (about half a ton of TNT).

Xuthos
Posts: 1
Joined: Wed Nov 26, 2008 11:55 am UTC

Re: "Induced Current" Discussion

Postby Xuthos » Wed Nov 26, 2008 12:03 pm UTC

The company I work with deals with cable and DSL lines. I sometimes check these sites when I see large scale outages:

http://www.swpc.noaa.gov/rt_plots/satenv.html
http://www.swpc.noaa.gov/rt_plots/kp_3d.html
http://www.swpc.noaa.gov/rt_plots/bou_12h.html


Return to “Individual XKCD Comic Threads”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: keldor and 92 guests