0513: "Friends"

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Neon Rain
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby Neon Rain » Sat Dec 06, 2008 1:14 pm UTC

So suppose someone knew they were the type of person who would become a "Nice Guy". They also knew that they would never find the courage to flat out tell the object of their affections that they liked them. It has been established that being the "Nice Guy" makes you a "Bad Person"; I agree with this sentiment. So would that person, if they didn't want to be a bad person, be morally obligated to not be friends with any females? Or find some excuse to leave (another poster mentioned taking a job somewhere far away) if he felt he was falling for someone?

On a side note, should I consider myself fortunate that I'd never find myself in this situation because I'm not nice? Not that I try to be, but I usually come off to people as quite blunt, rude, etc. Is just being a plain jerk (actual jerk, not what the "Nice Guy" considers a jerk) better or worse than being the "Nice Guy"?

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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby mikbeth » Sat Dec 06, 2008 1:20 pm UTC

Neon Rain wrote:So suppose someone knew they were the type of person who would become a "Nice Guy". They also knew that they would never find the courage to flat out tell the object of their affections that they liked them. It has been established that being the "Nice Guy" makes you a "Bad Person"; I agree with this sentiment. So would that person, if they didn't want to be a bad person, be morally obligated to not be friends with any females? Or find some excuse to leave (another poster mentioned taking a job somewhere far away) if he felt he was falling for someone?

On a side note, should I consider myself fortunate that I'd never find myself in this situation because I'm not nice? Not that I try to be, but I usually come off to people as quite blunt, rude, etc. Is just being a plain jerk (actual jerk, not what the "Nice Guy" considers a jerk) better or worse than being the "Nice Guy"?



No, I think it's what it's always about, growing up and accepting responsibility. It's not her fault the "nice guy" has a crush on her and it's that mentality that gets you in trouble. I've had crushes on girls that were not reciprocated. I told them I couldn't handle the emotions I was feeling at the moment. She took it personally(which is arguable as to whether or not she should have, but again, we can't control our emotions.) but I took a break, then a year later, something brought us back together and now were great friends. It still hurts sometimes when she tells me about her boyfriends, but I deal with that and realize it's my emotion to deal with and not hers, and I keep looking forward and dating and don't expect anything from her.
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Marlayna
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby Marlayna » Sat Dec 06, 2008 1:32 pm UTC

Thundercloud wrote:Except I didn't quite realise (Or accept) that the reason why I was still friends with them was because of that long-term plan.
Maybe it wasn't. :roll:
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The Scale
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby The Scale » Sat Dec 06, 2008 1:39 pm UTC

william wrote:
The Scale wrote:
Flewellyn wrote:One thing I have to wonder at, is the number of (presumably) men here who are saying "Oh, this is so me!", and not realizing that the comic is not on their side.

Seriously. The comic is saying this is a bad thing to do. Bad thing! No do!

Sheesh.


I agree that it's a bad thing to do, but I'm not sure the comic is picking sides. The guy is in the wrong, but I still feel bad for him. Imagine how lonely he must be to construct such a fantasy.


No! You CANNOT and MUST NOT show sympathy for the Internet Nice Guy(tm)! That is forbidden!


Internet Nice Guy <tm> ... Bad?
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slaufer
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby slaufer » Sat Dec 06, 2008 1:40 pm UTC

god damn, there's so much black and white in this thread i'm half expecting charlie chaplin to pop out of my browser and do a little jig

Tenth Speed Writer
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby Tenth Speed Writer » Sat Dec 06, 2008 3:49 pm UTC

RANDALL.

I told you to stop stalking me, damn it! D<






But what about those of us who never actually intend for these sort relationships to develop? It's not terribly difficult for otherwise jointly-platonic yet close friendships to break down into a similar pattern given the right sequence of events in each individual's personal life.
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purpleshoes
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby purpleshoes » Sat Dec 06, 2008 4:13 pm UTC

I just want to rearticulate that "Became friends, feelings changed, romance blossomed etc.", or even becoming friends with someone who you're attracted to as a person because you'd like to know them better, is a different option than "Cause someone to trust you, take advantage of them when they're weak even though you know it's not what they want." The first has happened to me. We were friends, we were both dating other people, we respected those relationships (instead of, say, calling every girl who dates him a skank and every dude who dates her a jerk), and then there was a long stretch of naturally-occurring relationshiplessness for both of us, previously non-occurring feelings started occurring, and one of us sat the other down and went, "Look, you're pretty cool. I am just saying if you want to give a fling a ... fling, then I am totally onboard with that plan. If not, I will feel awkward for a while but it'll be okay."

We actually went away and thought about it, and then the more doubtful party came back and said "Yes, that is a totally awesome idea". So far it's been the happiest relationship of my life, with bonus points for being nerd/nerd.

JennyWren
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby JennyWren » Sat Dec 06, 2008 4:58 pm UTC

OK, I can't read more "omgthisisme" posts (too many!) but wanted to mention something which may or not have already been brought up.

IMO while pursuing a friendship for the sole purpose of developing an eventual relationship is dishonest, there's certainly nothing wrong with being friends first if it helps you to determine whether or not you really do want a relationship with someone. I know women (men probably too, but I see women do this way worse - and I'm a woman) can change abruptly into different people when they start dating someone. Their attitudes and behaviour patterns change, they spend time with different friends (or no friends!), etc. Being the "guy" friend for a while, while she goes through other relationships, might give you a chance to observe her approach to relationships. Do you want to date the kind of person that she becomes when she is with someone?

In all honesty, if you aren't friends with someone, a relationship won't last. This doesn't mean that you must be friends FIRST, but relationships where the two people love each other but don't actually LIKE each other seem so common, and never work out. After 20 years, you'd better be friends as well, or else...
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby ThemePark » Sat Dec 06, 2008 4:59 pm UTC

valiance. wrote:I have to say this comic is brilliant and the alt text is the icing on the cake. The Nice Guy (TM) is truly a friend with detriments i.e. a friend-- He's WORSE than a normal friend.

TheAmazingRando wrote:It isn't like people need to give reasons for not dating someone, anyway. Any reason is just a rationalization of a particular feeling (or, really, a lack of feeling), and it's those feelings, not the reasons for them, that matter. It doesn't matter if the reason is entirely honest (and, really, we're probably all guilty of lying a bit to avoid hurting the feelings of people we care about), the point is that she just isn't into you, there's probably nothing you can do to change that, and entertaining hope to the contrary is just going to hurt you (and possibly her) in the long run.


This is really brilliant. I've tried and failed to think of times when the reasons behind the no might matter. Never thought of this. This and what mythago said. There's also a difference between telling a little white lie to a guy to spare his feelings and lying to a girl to protect your own fragile ego from the shock of being rejected. Even though the former is dishonest, at least the intent is selfless; in the end the Nice Guy (TM) isn't looking out for anyone but himself.

I can't say I don't enjoy all the nice guy whining, since some of it is pretty funny; but it's always wholly inaccurate and misdirected.

This really is not brilliant.

Personally, I can think of lots of times where the reasons behind the no WOULD matter. Namely, when they can cause you to grow.

"Listen, I like you and all, wanna go out on a date?"
- "No, quite frankly you have a horrible hygiene, go wash yourself". Hmm, I guess I COULD start taking showers more than once a month.
- "No, I've noticed how you've been manipulating me for the last few years, being a good friend with other intentions, secretly hoping that I would one day see just how wonderful you would be as a boyfriend." Hmm, I see. I'm sorry, I never intentionally wanted to do that. But you're right, I will try to change.
- "No, you've quite honestly been coming on too strong". Sorry baby, that's just my charisma.

(Added exaggeration for comedic effect/affect (yes, I know which one is the right one)).

See? There ARE times where the reasons behind the no DOES matter. It's called growing up.

I'm not saying that every guy in every situation would behave that maturely, or even that a guy wouldn't be pissed off at first with being told something like that, but any mature guy would after a while contemplate what had been said, and if he decided she was right and wanted to change, he'd apologize to her for his outburst.

And personally, having such reasons shoved in your face might not be fun, but being dishonest about your reasons is a thousand times worse. Saying "Listen, you're a nice guy but I'm just not that into you" (Woo, go, Sex and the City!) just doesn't help anyone, when the reasons behind are really different.
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Stay_Puft_marshmallows
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby Stay_Puft_marshmallows » Sat Dec 06, 2008 5:37 pm UTC

Seriously. How many readers failed to realize that "But he doesn't respect you!" is a punch line?
text goes where?

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LittleKey
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby LittleKey » Sat Dec 06, 2008 5:44 pm UTC

Kokuro wrote:So, wish me luck guys.


good luck.

hahaha i like this one, it's such a realistic situation.

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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby armandtanzarian » Sat Dec 06, 2008 6:02 pm UTC

That comic actually became reality for me last night. My best friend and high school crush finally came out and said she liked me too.

Unfortunately she's now halfway around the world, its been 7 years, and she's still a little scared of my pot-smoking habit. Yay life.

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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby spacefem » Sat Dec 06, 2008 10:40 pm UTC

sigh. a nice guy who secretly resents a girl for not being in love with him is not a nice guy.

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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby ParanoidAndroid » Sat Dec 06, 2008 11:02 pm UTC

Frankie wrote:Corollary: Advice to young women:

1: If you have a "nice" male friend who hangs around you (as opposed to you hanging around him, or both of you hanging around someone else) for hours at a time, he wants to have a relationship &/or sex with you.

Even him. Yes, he is like that. Really.


Wait a second. This may be true for some guys, maybe even most guys, but not all. As a counterexample, I present, um, myself. There are girls that I am great friends with that I would never even consider for sex or a relationship. No, they aren't hideous, and no, I'm not gay. I have been told by these girls on separate occasions that they see me almost like a brother. I thought that was awesome, because they almost feel like my sisters. We hang out and do stuff. We talk a lot. Sometimes I try to help them with their "boy drama" (when they want my advice). Guess what? I even tell them positive things about the guys that they like/date/whatever, because they're pretty cool guys.

That said, I admit that I have been the "Nice Guy" in the past, though I was not as bad as most nice guys are, it seems (not that that excuses it). I still feel uncomfortable knowing when it is the right time to ask someone out, but I guess I'll just have to work on that. Right now, though, I'm just looking for friends. As much as I'd like to have a wonderful relationship now, it's just not going to happen any time soon. If I meet some girl that I'd like to ask out, I'll ask her out. Well, that's the plan at least...

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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby mrbaggins » Sat Dec 06, 2008 11:31 pm UTC

Well shit.

There's a girl I think likes me I've been considering/trying to ask "Hey, what the hell's going on here".

Unfortunately (Or not, whatever), girl reads xkcd, and has now seen this. And she knows I do.

So any attempt to find out what's going on will be rather tainted methinks.
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby ADXCKGuy » Sat Dec 06, 2008 11:31 pm UTC

Wow Randy. Dark.
I love it. :twisted:

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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby vodka.cobra » Sat Dec 06, 2008 11:37 pm UTC

Wow, this DID turn into a BAWWWWWW thread.
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valiance.
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby valiance. » Sat Dec 06, 2008 11:49 pm UTC

ThemePark wrote:
valiance. wrote:I have to say this comic is brilliant and the alt text is the icing on the cake. The Nice Guy (TM) is truly a friend with detriments i.e. a friend-- He's WORSE than a normal friend.

TheAmazingRando wrote:It isn't like people need to give reasons for not dating someone, anyway. Any reason is just a rationalization of a particular feeling (or, really, a lack of feeling), and it's those feelings, not the reasons for them, that matter. It doesn't matter if the reason is entirely honest (and, really, we're probably all guilty of lying a bit to avoid hurting the feelings of people we care about), the point is that she just isn't into you, there's probably nothing you can do to change that, and entertaining hope to the contrary is just going to hurt you (and possibly her) in the long run.


This is really brilliant. I've tried and failed to think of times when the reasons behind the no might matter. Never thought of this. This and what mythago said. There's also a difference between telling a little white lie to a guy to spare his feelings and lying to a girl to protect your own fragile ego from the shock of being rejected. Even though the former is dishonest, at least the intent is selfless; in the end the Nice Guy (TM) isn't looking out for anyone but himself.

I can't say I don't enjoy all the nice guy whining, since some of it is pretty funny; but it's always wholly inaccurate and misdirected.

This really is not brilliant.

Personally, I can think of lots of times where the reasons behind the no WOULD matter. Namely, when they can cause you to grow.

"Listen, I like you and all, wanna go out on a date?"
- "No, quite frankly you have a horrible hygiene, go wash yourself". Hmm, I guess I COULD start taking showers more than once a month.
- "No, I've noticed how you've been manipulating me for the last few years, being a good friend with other intentions, secretly hoping that I would one day see just how wonderful you would be as a boyfriend." Hmm, I see. I'm sorry, I never intentionally wanted to do that. But you're right, I will try to change.
- "No, you've quite honestly been coming on too strong". Sorry baby, that's just my charisma.

(Added exaggeration for comedic effect/affect (yes, I know which one is the right one)).

See? There ARE times where the reasons behind the no DOES matter. It's called growing up.

I'm not saying that every guy in every situation would behave that maturely, or even that a guy wouldn't be pissed off at first with being told something like that, but any mature guy would after a while contemplate what had been said, and if he decided she was right and wanted to change, he'd apologize to her for his outburst.

And personally, having such reasons shoved in your face might not be fun, but being dishonest about your reasons is a thousand times worse. Saying "Listen, you're a nice guy but I'm just not that into you" (Woo, go, Sex and the City!) just doesn't help anyone, when the reasons behind are really different.


What are the chances someone would ever reject a friend so bluntly? Compound that with a very small chance of him actually taking her "advice" and I see very low potential for growth there. But you're right that's not 0 potential for growth--I'll concede that it can be useful to know someone's reasons for not dating you. But it's also very easy to fall into the trap of a guy wanting to change in accordance with her wishes, which will likely never even work; because it's not taking her at her word. She's not into you, move on.

[cynic] I also don't think it's necessarily a good idea to all be more honest with each other. People don't like their flaws pointed out, self-delusion is the key to happiness. [/cynic]

and how is "Listen, you're a nice guy but I'm just not that into you" a lie? It's not an in-depth summary of all the guy's flaws, but from her perspective it's true. For whatever reason, she's just not into him; sometimes there's nothing wrong with him (except that he's a nice guy TM). Maybe there are no hygiene flaws or social faux pas and she just doesn't reciprocate his romantic feelings. "I'm just not that into you" is like the stock non-lie; it's a simple statement of fact. "I have a boyfriend" or "I'm a lesbian" or "I'm from Tau Ceti" might be lies (but aren't necessarily) but "I'm just not that into you" isn't even a reason.

mikbeth wrote:
There's also a difference between telling a little white lie to a guy to spare his feelings and lying to a girl to protect your own fragile ego from the shock of being rejected. Even though the former is dishonest, at least the intent is selfless; in the end the Nice Guy (TM) isn't looking out for anyone but himself.


You're making the assumption that a white lie to a guy to spare his feelings is selfless, which I would posit is not. Whenever I have ever lied to a girl to protect her feelings, it has almost always admittedly been to not have to deal with the bad feelings. Pain is something we don't want to deal with, but is often a necessary outcome of certain situations, especially relationship situations.


Good point, it's not necessarily selfless, but I'd argue a white lie in this case is often the right thing to do. As I said above, there's little to be gained from the truth in this case, especially at the moment of rejection. How likely are you to take advice from someone who's just emotionally rejected you and is now accurately cataloguing your flaws in painful detail?

And I'd urge you not to discount the element of selflessness entirely; I think there is some consideration for the other person's feelings in the case of a white lie. Though she might be trying to avoid the pain and awkwardness of having to deal with someone whose feelings she just hurt, I'd argue that in this case her primary motivation is not to hurt his feelings any more than she already is by rejecting him--especially since they're friends. The guy's main motivation seems to be avoiding rejection by never bringing the issue up and instead trying to sneak his way into her heart. It's fundamentally dishonest; he often knows he'd be rejected outright if he broached the issue, so he hides his true intentions. We're talking about a guy who plans on taking sexual advantage of a friend in a moment of weakness--someone who is practicing long term deception; not merely telling a one time white lie.

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mythago
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby mythago » Sun Dec 07, 2008 12:04 am UTC

We hang out and do stuff.


Did you even read the post you were replying to? Frankie did not say "all men are like this" or "every male friend you have is like this", but nice friends who hang around you, as opposed to the two of you hanging out together.
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mythago
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby mythago » Sun Dec 07, 2008 12:09 am UTC

ThemePark wrote:I'm not saying that every guy in every situation would behave that maturely, or even that a guy wouldn't be pissed off at first with being told something like that, but any mature guy would after a while contemplate what had been said, and if he decided she was right and wanted to change, he'd apologize to her for his outburst.


Problem is that we're not talking about the mature guy who can handle rejection appropriately. THAT guy would have made Choice #1 in the comic - asking her out, and if she says no, moving on. Non-Mature Nice Guy is the one who will explode and call her a bitch, end their friendship, tell all their mutual friends a bizarre tale about how she used him, continue to hang around her because "she'll change her mind", or whatever. And, speaking from experience, that may happen even if her no is completely unqualified, ie "No, not you, and not ever."

I've been teaching my daughters that 'no' is a complete sentence. If a guy who is otherwise a friend has problems meeting women other than you and you want to help him, it's a good thing to pull him aside and tell him e.g. he needs not to stare at women's breasts when he's talking to them. Beyond that, they do not owe anyone an excuse for refusing to sleep with them, and the guy who asks them out is not entitled to demand an excuse, which he may then weigh for adequacy before he decides whether or not her "no" is acceptable.

Remember, Randall's not making fun of the genuinely nice guy who has developed feelings for a female friend, and wants to let her know without screwing up the friendship. He's talking about the manipulative creep who doesn't care about treating her like another person with the right to make choices for herself.
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby BlueNight » Sun Dec 07, 2008 12:59 am UTC

Neon Rain wrote:So suppose someone knew they were the type of person who would become a "Nice Guy". They also knew that they would never find the courage to flat out tell the object of their affections that they liked them. It has been established that being the "Nice Guy" makes you a "Bad Person"; I agree with this sentiment. So would that person, if they didn't want to be a bad person, be morally obligated to not be friends with any females? Or find some excuse to leave (another poster mentioned taking a job somewhere far away) if he felt he was falling for someone?


No, he needs to learn how to have the courage to allow the other person to make a free choice to participate in a relationship (or not), instead of manipulating. It does NOT mean never finding love, but it DOES mean having the courage to fail.

Neon Rain wrote:On a side note, should I consider myself fortunate that I'd never find myself in this situation because I'm not nice? Not that I try to be, but I usually come off to people as quite blunt, rude, etc. Is just being a plain jerk (actual jerk, not what the "Nice Guy" considers a jerk) better or worse than being the "Nice Guy"?


A person can be manipulative through inappropriately high OR low levels of attention. I once had a manipulative friend who used alternating levels of low and high attention as his main tool, so when I unintentionally made a pun (not even a particularly clever one) and he laughed uproariously for several minutes, it struck me as odd, possibly disingenuous, and certainly manipulative.

The key to being a real friend is to care about the other person as a person, not to care about what you can obtain from them, whether that's sex, money, attention... or even genuine friendship. You may find yourself to be a friend to someone who isn't your friend; reciprocity is not guaranteed.

This is also true of lovers.

A real friend (or lover) would know that when you state things bluntly, you are being yourself. The trick is to find people who don't care about such things. Doing this takes practice. With said practice, you will find many real friends, and quite a few possible lovers.
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby Neon Rain » Sun Dec 07, 2008 1:34 am UTC

BlueNight wrote:
Neon Rain wrote:So suppose someone knew they were the type of person who would become a "Nice Guy". They also knew that they would never find the courage to flat out tell the object of their affections that they liked them. It has been established that being the "Nice Guy" makes you a "Bad Person"; I agree with this sentiment. So would that person, if they didn't want to be a bad person, be morally obligated to not be friends with any females? Or find some excuse to leave (another poster mentioned taking a job somewhere far away) if he felt he was falling for someone?


No, he needs to learn how to have the courage to allow the other person to make a free choice to participate in a relationship (or not), instead of manipulating. It does NOT mean never finding love, but it DOES mean having the courage to fail.


I think its been pretty clearly established that owning up to his feelings is the best option for the "Nice Guy", but I was thinking more on a moral-theoretical level; not actually what the "Nice Guy" should do, but rather if he did X, would it be immoral, etc.

On that note, while I'm sure there are a lot of people who are "manipulative" like this, I think there are also a lot of people who want to have a friendship with someone they have a crush on without expecting anything more than just that, at least consciously, because they just care about them, and like the person as a person. I don't see how anyone can claim to "love" someone, and yet not want a mutual friendship with them :? . It seems counter intuitive. Are the "genuine friends" who happen to have a crush on the person the same as the "Nice Guy", just not admitting it to themselves? From the previous discussion in the thread, it the sense I got was that anyone who is "dishonest" about there feelings is automatically selfish; yet if the other is clearly not attracted to you and you make no issue of your attraction to the other and just try to be a good friend, is that still detrimental to them?

BlueNight wrote:The key to being a real friend is to care about the other person as a person, not to care about what you can obtain from them, whether that's sex, money, attention... or even genuine friendship. You may find yourself to be a friend to someone who isn't your friend; reciprocity is not guaranteed.


Woah...emphasis mine. Are you saying that wanting to be someone's friend is an ulterior motive? How can you be a friend to someone without wanting their friendship? I can see how you might not get their friendship, but not I don't see how you couldn't want it at all...

Anyway, I think what I'm trying to ask is that if the "Nice Guy" in the comic didn't try to manipulate the girl and is genuinely supportive of her (for example in relationships instead of trying to tear them down, etc.), and yet still harbored feelings for her, would he still be being a "bad" person for not saying those feelings? While clearly it would be self-detrimental, and...well just plain stupid, would it be morally wrong?

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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby SneakyMongo » Sun Dec 07, 2008 1:46 am UTC

aprogressivist wrote:The "Nice Guy" has admitting to the girl that his desire for friendship is predicated on dishonesty, and that really he just wants to entrap her into a dependency with him, which he'll then use to exploit her loneliness.


Yes, and?

aprogressivist wrote: What, precisely, is respectful towards the girl in the Nice Guy's exposition?


Nothing.

aprogressivist wrote: being dishonest and manipulating someone is much more jerkish behaviour than that of the so-called "jerks".


Only if he is caught.

EDIT: Simply because something is immoral does not mean it is the incorrect course of action.
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby TinFoil » Sun Dec 07, 2008 2:04 am UTC

You know what this comic reminded me of? The first time I had dijon mustard.

I was eating a hot dog at a party my friend was throwing and wanted some mustard. The only bottle I could find was dijon mustard. I didn't know there was even a difference, I just thought dijon was the brand name. I spread on a healthy serving and noticed it looked different than mustard I was accustom to. I took a sniff, I recall it smelling stronger than yellow mustard. I glanced around, looking for an alternate food source, but the grill had a line forming, I knew I was stuck with the choice I made. As I bit into the hot dog, I started out being pleasantly surprised. It was new, but tasty. Another bite in, not quite as pleasant, but I could see myself liking this stuff. A few more bites in, here comes the regret. I smile nervously, trying to ignore the yellow mustard I had recently spotted at the end of the table... Oh the thought of how good that yellow mustard would taste right now; the very sight intoxicating my taste buds. As I went in for another bite, I saw the line to the grill was virtually gone. Without making a huge scene, but not trying to hide my actions, I pitched the hot dog I had gotten and went back for another with the yellow mustard bottle in hand.

Oh, and nearly every girlfriend I've ever had... It reminds me of that too.

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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby Ari » Sun Dec 07, 2008 3:29 am UTC

lysandra wrote:I wouldn't date a guy I couldn't be friends with. If they can't be a friend without being creepy, I doubt they'll be able to be a boyfriend without being creepy either.


Which is exactly why this comic is so creepy when taken seriously, I think.

Tenth Speed Writer wrote:But what about those of us who never actually intend for these sort relationships to develop? It's not terribly difficult for otherwise jointly-platonic yet close friendships to break down into a similar pattern given the right sequence of events in each individual's personal life.


The point is that if someone you're into tells you they just want to be friends, if you still want to be friends, you have to accept that. You're allowed to have feelings, just don't be the creepy guy who thinks of himself as the "nice guy" (Or nice girl, although I hope this archetype doesn't span genders) that has to manipulatively and passive-aggressively tear down everyone the object of their affection is or might be interested in. There's a reason "But he doesn't respect you!" is in the last panel. It's a punch line that is supposed to telegraph quite clearly that we're talking about the creepy guys here, not the tragically-shy, or people who date their friends.

Apparently obliviousness is stronger than sarcasm :D

Stay_Puft_marshmallows wrote:Seriously. How many readers failed to realize that "But he doesn't respect you!" is a punch line?


And a high-five for you for beating me to that point. :)
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby Seo » Sun Dec 07, 2008 3:48 am UTC

me: do you have work again in the morning?
her: Nope
her: Tomorrow at 3
me: then why don't i come over, and we can watch a movie or something before you go to sleep
me: Oh me yarm, today's XKCD comic is why!
her: I don't know what that is

The names have been changed to protect. . .me.


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I have to go think now.

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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby Archosaur » Sun Dec 07, 2008 4:03 am UTC

I had no idea I was doing this until I read this comic.

Thanks for the slap in the face.

It won't happen again.

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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby Flewellyn » Sun Dec 07, 2008 4:08 am UTC

SneakyMongo wrote:EDIT: Simply because something is immoral does not mean it is the incorrect course of action.


Yes, actually, that is precisely what it means.

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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby scwizard » Sun Dec 07, 2008 4:21 am UTC

william wrote:
scwizard wrote:
william wrote:Yeah. If you're shy, you deserve to NEVER have a girlfriend!

Hmm, if you're unable to make clear to your friend that you're in love with her does that make you a bad person?

I would say yes. The second you want something out of the relationship that they doesn't know you want, you open up the door for manipulation.

Ya that's kind of harsh, but it's what I really believe.

So bad communication(not deliberate; accidental) is actively evil? Odd position to take.

Lack of communication opens up the door for evil yes. This is not the only instance where this is true.

Being shy is a serious problem if it it's to the point where you can't communicate when it's REALLY IMPORTANT to.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ (I really wish I could just double post)


Ok time to argue the other side.

The problem of telling your friend that you're in love with, that you're in love with them, is that it's a bad idea practically.

From what I'd heard girls are less likely to fall for guys who like them, that they're more interested in guys that show in an indirect way that they're a bit interested, and then act uninterested.

Therefore by telling your friend directly that you're in love with them you're shooting yourself in the foot, it makes it so that she's less likely to fall in love with you.
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Re: Questioning Creepyness etc.

Postby RoyW » Sun Dec 07, 2008 4:35 am UTC

xinu wrote:Moreover, if I *know* (from own observation as well as from a friend who had it from her in unmistakable words) that she isn't interested in me, is there really any point in telling her that I might have a crush on her? What for? I don't like the dishonesty, and I seriously contemplated telling her -- but I can't see any good coming from it. It wouldn't help me, and it wouldn't help her; it would be awkward and painful for both; she would be less open from now on; and I would see even less of her. (Though admittedly there is not very much to loose on that last account: She doesn't avoid me so far, but doesn't seek my company either.)

Actually, it can be useful to tell her on several levels - it can clear the air, it can help you move on to hear the 'no' from her directly (I've got good women friends who I used to have crushes on, but don't now). Just make it clear that that's how _you_ feel, and accept her response for what it is. It's going to be awkward, but it doesn't need to be painful.

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Re: Questioning Creepyness etc.

Postby scwizard » Sun Dec 07, 2008 4:48 am UTC

xinu wrote:One thing there is no doubt about: The guy in this comic intentionally planning to manipulate her; trick her into a relationship, while fully aware that she will never really love him -- this is definitely creepy.

However, as some (few) people pointed out, this conscious, negative train of thought in the comic is highly ironical on purpose. Certainly very few actual people ending up in such a pattern really have this kind of creepy intentions. Rather, most of them -- including all the "story of my life" posters here, I am sure -- will be really wanting to become friends (friends is something), while also hoping that perhaps someday she will actually genuinely fall in love with them... (Which, according to various posts here, seems a perfectly possible outcome.)

But many many people here exclaim that trying to become friends with a girl, while wanting a deeper relation, is already creepy by itself! I wonder, is that really so? I must say that I fail to see why it would be. Seriously, what's wrong with trying to become friends, while -- secretly or not -- hoping that it might develop into more in time; that the deeper feelings will be requited too? It's certainly gutless, and in a way dishonest, if the hope is kept secret. It's probably also not the best working approach to get the desired. But creepy? Manipulative? I can't see anything of that. It's not like she suffers any harm from him having stronger feelings... On the contrary, she might get a very good friend.

If you REALLY WANT something from someone, the way to get it is either to tell them what you want and see if they'll give it to you, or manipulate them into giving it to you.

You can enter into this type of relationship and tell yourself you'll never be manipulative, but you'll find yourself breaking this promise to yourself because you REALLY WANT HER. You may not be even conscious that you're doing the things you're doing because you think it will increase your chances of you and her ending up together, but that is the reason.
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby william » Sun Dec 07, 2008 5:06 am UTC

DarkGhost89 wrote:The other is if you think from a girl perspective: if you were a girl, why would she want a doormat, yes man, suck up, passive aggressive, kid? How does it respect her by being fake and dishonest? Even moreso, how can you respect yourself if you are putting yourself in emotional hell spending time with with her, getting all attached and everything, but cultivate none of that in her? Just setting up for a very painful day. The jerk is a jerk, but at least he possess the qualities that makes him attractive, even though it may not work long term.

This is bullshit. I am sick and tired of "Sure, he's an abusive boyfriend, but at least he's confident when he does it!"
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby thenotestaken » Sun Dec 07, 2008 5:27 am UTC

I know so many of these guys! Every serious relationship I've had has grown out of a friend liking me, and most of my other guy friends have liked me at some point in the past but we stayed friends.

The only advice I can give to all the lovesick boys posting in this thread is that if you are trying to be our friend but you actually like us, we can tell. We know. I've had friends confess to me years later that there was a time when they were crushing, and when I tell them that I knew the whole time it's amazing how well you guys think you're pulling off the sneaky friend. But at that point, even if we're open to new possibilities, the ball is in your court. The thing to do is really try and objectively read her signals as to whether she's possibly interested in you romantically--and either proceed or recede.

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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby william » Sun Dec 07, 2008 5:33 am UTC

SneakyMongo wrote:He manipulated her into entering a relationship with him, build a deep connection, and eventually forged something greater. That he did this through duplicitous means is irrelevant.

It's like that joke about hipsters who voted for Mccain "ironically". It's still a vote for Mccain at the end of the day.

Actually I think this may be more like the elderly Jews who voted for Buchanan, which also has the advantage of being something that actually happened rather than a joke about the staleness of irony. Some of you people are doing the equivalent of cussing out said elderly Jews.

The Scale wrote:Internet Nice Guy <tm> ... Bad?

I was venting at the fact that some of the sentiment in this thread seemed to verge on the ridiculous. So I dialed it up a notch.

gilead26 wrote:Well said, just ask, the worst she can do is say no, and if you're really friends the worst you'll have to deal with is a day or two of awkwardness

Actually, that's not true. The worst she can do is say "I'll think about it", avoid you for a week, and then say no.
SecondTalon wrote:A pile of shit can call itself a delicious pie, but that doesn't make it true.

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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby ParanoidAndroid » Sun Dec 07, 2008 7:12 am UTC

mythago wrote:
We hang out and do stuff.


Did you even read the post you were replying to? Frankie did not say "all men are like this" or "every male friend you have is like this", but nice friends who hang around you, as opposed to the two of you hanging out together.


Actually, he said "as opposed to you hanging around him, or both of you hanging around someone else". Hanging out together was not mentioned specifically. Anyway, it can be difficult to differentiate between hanging out "together" and hanging out "around", depending on how you look at it. Debating over semantics about stuff like this really isn't important, though. Perhaps I just communicated some of my frustration in an unclear manner. I'm just tired of hearing crap about how I can't be friends with a girl without being secretly interested in her romantically or sexually. I can (and do) call these girls up to see if they want to meet for lunch or something, and they feel comfortable with me because they've known me for years and know that I would never try to make a move on them or anything of that sort.

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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby JayDee » Sun Dec 07, 2008 8:19 am UTC

william wrote:
gilead26 wrote:Well said, just ask, the worst she can do is say no, and if you're really friends the worst you'll have to deal with is a day or two of awkwardness
Actually, that's not true. The worst she can do is say "I'll think about it", avoid you for a week, and then say no.
I can think of worse. She could be freaked out and ashamed. So freaked out she mindlessly inflicts considerable violence upon you, leaving you in hospital, probably quadraplegic. A video of this fight (or accident or whatever. Not sure of the details) ends up on youtube. And aside from that, she is so ashamed that you asked that her only option is Seppuku. And everyone knows that she died because of you.

Unlikely, perhaps, but also still far from the worst she can do, I'd say.
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby Nifar » Sun Dec 07, 2008 8:20 am UTC

I would like to put forward that the "Friends" thing works (or, at least, it worked for me), but it's a long, slow process. I still think it's better to get to know someone before you date them, and befriending them certainly does that.
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby scwizard » Sun Dec 07, 2008 10:31 am UTC

Related stuff I found on 4chan (god damnit I need to stop going there)

This nice guy was not the manipulative sort portrayed in the comic (see, he's being honest with her about his feelings). He didn't deserve this:

Image

From the perspective of the (ex?) boyfriend of the girl in the comic:

Image
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby DVC » Sun Dec 07, 2008 11:27 am UTC

I have a burning need to point out that, sometimes guys DO just want to be friends with a girl.

*Sometimes* this friendship may lead to deeper feelings but that isn't always the intention to start with, and it might never turn out that way.

If someone says they want to be friends, believe them, it's better than second guessing everything they do and a lot less stressful.

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Re: Questioning Creepyness etc.

Postby Marlayna » Sun Dec 07, 2008 12:24 pm UTC

scwizard wrote:You can enter into this type of relationship and tell yourself you'll never be manipulative, but you'll find yourself breaking this promise to yourself because you REALLY WANT HER. You may not be even conscious that you're doing the things you're doing because you think it will increase your chances of you and her ending up together, but that is the reason.
You're making people out to be worse than they really are.
Archosaur wrote:I had no idea I was doing this until I read this comic.

Thanks for the slap in the face.

It won't happen again.
And you probably believe yourself to be worse than you really are.
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Those who can read binary numbers and those who can't.


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