0513: "Friends"

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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby MrRubix » Fri Dec 05, 2008 3:17 pm UTC

The problem is, a lot of people seem to misinterpret where they fall along the spectrum from "nice guy" to "jerk." Nice guys tend to be doormats who have no boundaries, whereas jerks are very aggressive with their preferences. The healthy middle ground, obviously, is to be assertive yet respectful. "Nice guys" tend to lack the backbone necessary to stand up for what they want and don't want, and actually end to displace blame and not take responsibility for their actions. They're more prone to blaming a girl for not picking up on impossible cues of interest because they don't have the cajones to be forthcoming, and usually get frustrated when a girl continues to see them as nothing more than a friend even though their actions clearly fall in line otherwise. Nice guys, strangely enough, are *extremely* illogical doormats, and it can be irritating to hear the irresponsible ramblings of a bitter nice guy.

A doormat's really meant to be walked on -- not respected. Even if you're a guy who is otherwise witty, intelligent, funny, empathetic, etc, fawning over a girl and doing everything on her terms is a surefire way of getting her to lose respect for you.

What I mean by this is that if you are interested in someone, be assertive and go for them. I don't mind hearing out a friend who is having troubles with her relationship, but if I find myself interested in something more with said friend, I honestly don't see why I should hesitate in letting her know (at the proper time, of course). Even if you get rejected, it doesn't mean the friendship is forever strained or different. It's really only awkward if you make it awkward. I speak from experience on both sides of the coin, here.

There's a good reason why you hear of these "nice guy/jerk" scenarios so often. It's in your favor to approach it in a way that makes sense, as opposed to holding out for some hope that somehow your situation will somehow deviate drastically from the norm and that girls will "come around" and see things your way. I'd rather improve my chances. "Nice guys" could learn a lot from "jerks," and vice-versa.
Last edited by MrRubix on Fri Dec 05, 2008 3:22 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Note for the guy in the comic

Postby xkcdpasta » Fri Dec 05, 2008 3:19 pm UTC

Frankie wrote:Advice from a happily married guy who also used to be just like that guy:

1: The young women that you're pining after don't really want to date jerks. What they want is a man with confidence and excitement. Unfortunately they have a hard time telling the difference between confidence and arrogance.

2: If you truly want to have a shot with this one, do NOT spend all of your time puppydogging around her. Be nice when she's there, but make a conscious effort to do more things with other people, until you're ready to go for it and make your move right out in the open.

3: She'll probably turn you down anyways. Move on.

4: As they get older, a reasonable percentage of women realize that they're doing it wrong, and start considering nice guys even if they aren't quite as exciting. They still want confidence, and by the time you're older, you might discover that you gained some along the way.


Frankie says relax and move on.

P.S. With regards to 4. at what stage did this actually happen for you?
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby Savant Deviance » Fri Dec 05, 2008 3:20 pm UTC

Blurgle wrote:Nice guys are NEVER nice. They are the biggest jerks around.


*shakes head*

Good comic. True in a lot of aspects.
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby Sidescan » Fri Dec 05, 2008 3:21 pm UTC

MrRubix wrote:There's a good reason why you hear of these "nice guy/jerk" scenarios so often.

It's called "fundamental attribution bias", isn't it?
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Pedantry Corner

Postby xkcdpasta » Fri Dec 05, 2008 3:24 pm UTC

Technically its either "Correspondence bias" or "Fundamental attribution error". Easy to conflate the two. Or put here here instead of hear hear...!
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby MrRubix » Fri Dec 05, 2008 3:25 pm UTC

Sidescan wrote:
MrRubix wrote:There's a good reason why you hear of these "nice guy/jerk" scenarios so often.

It's called "fundamental attribution bias", isn't it?


Well, what kind of other factors do you feel would play a more important role here?
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby Aurora Firestorm » Fri Dec 05, 2008 3:26 pm UTC

I don't know what the heck this phenomenon is, girls wanting to date jerks. I mean, I've heard about it, but never seen it. I always thought it was an urban legend. I don't know any girl that wants a jerk. I don't want a jerk. I'm sure some women do, but is it really a majority, or even terribly noticeable?

I think the nice guys' failing is sometimes that they're too shy. Seriously, if you want a relationship and you're friends with two people, one is more arrogant but he's cool enough and asks you out, the nice guy loses. The last thing I'll do is turn down a potentially cool relationship just because maybe the nice guy over there might decide he likes me. He may be cool, but if he shows no interest, I shouldn't wait for him, right?


-Things seem to be moving slowly but surely toward the acquisition of benefits, possibly even romance... then he/she is dating someone out of the blue. No advice here but to wait, and meanwhile keep your options open. Failing to do so actually makes you less attractive. (If you're a guy, anyhow. I can't speak to the inverse.)


Gah. I hate this when it happens. That particular bomb got dropped on me earlier this year.



About the strip itself, I don't see why so many people think the comic is creepy. It's about a shy guy who really wants to date this girl, but he's afraid, so he's going to try to get close to her so maybe she'll see something in him. Seems like a good strategy to me -- my longest relationship was based on a really good starting friendship, and we're still great friends now even though we've broken up. Only problem with this is, it's possible your interest will run off and get another guy/girl while you're slowly working. It's a toss-up between scaring them off, catching them before they have feelings for you, and losing them to someone else.
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby xkcdpasta » Fri Dec 05, 2008 3:27 pm UTC

MrRubix wrote:
Sidescan wrote:
MrRubix wrote:There's a good reason why you hear of these "nice guy/jerk" scenarios so often.

It's called "fundamental attribution bias", isn't it?


Well, what kind of other factors do you feel would play a more important role here?


How much they can bench. Size/quality of junk/wallet. Face.
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby MrRubix » Fri Dec 05, 2008 3:28 pm UTC

xkcdpasta wrote:
MrRubix wrote:
Sidescan wrote:
MrRubix wrote:There's a good reason why you hear of these "nice guy/jerk" scenarios so often.

It's called "fundamental attribution bias", isn't it?


Well, what kind of other factors do you feel would play a more important role here?


How much they can bench. Size/quality of junk/wallet. Face.


Hear, hear
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby xkcdpasta » Fri Dec 05, 2008 3:30 pm UTC

Aurora Firestorm wrote:About the strip itself, I don't see why so many people think the comic is creepy. It's about a shy guy who really wants to date this girl, but he's afraid, so he's going to try to get close to her so maybe she'll see something in him. Seems like a good strategy to me -- my longest relationship was based on a really good starting friendship, and we're still great friends now even though we've broken up. Only problem with this is, it's possible your interest will run off and get another guy/girl while you're slowly working. It's a toss-up between scaring them off, catching them before they have feelings for you, and losing them to someone else.


If they go off with someone else then someone else had the right approach. Learn from someone else, he/she is a wise man/woman.
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby xkcdpasta » Fri Dec 05, 2008 3:31 pm UTC

MrRubix wrote:Hear, hear


I'm just going to come right out and say it: lol.
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby Aurora Firestorm » Fri Dec 05, 2008 3:32 pm UTC

If they go off with someone else then someone else had the right approach. Learn from someone else, he/she is a wise man/woman.


Assertiveness = good, yes. However, in terms of specific approaches, what worked for that person may not work on the next one you're pursuing. Each case is so specific.
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby Sidescan » Fri Dec 05, 2008 3:37 pm UTC

xkcdpasta wrote:Technically its either "Correspondence bias" or "Fundamental attribution error". Easy to conflate the two. Or put here here instead of hear hear...!

Thank you.
MrRubix wrote:Well, what kind of other factors do you feel would play a more important role here?

I'm not sure we need to look for any other factors.
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby MrRubix » Fri Dec 05, 2008 3:41 pm UTC

Regardless, I still stand behind my earlier points. The whole "friend zone" thing is actually not too hard to work around in many cases.
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby Armadillo Al » Fri Dec 05, 2008 3:41 pm UTC

Aurora Firestorm wrote:
If they go off with someone else then someone else had the right approach. Learn from someone else, he/she is a wise man/woman.


Assertiveness = good, yes. However, in terms of specific approaches, what worked for that person may not work on the next one you're pursuing. Each case is so specific.

Hear here?
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby xkcdpasta » Fri Dec 05, 2008 3:44 pm UTC

Aurora Firestorm wrote:
If they go off with someone else then someone else had the right approach. Learn from someone else, he/she is a wise man/woman.


Assertiveness = good, yes. However, in terms of specific approaches, what worked for that person may not work on the next one you're pursuing. Each case is so specific.


A worthwhile caveat, indeed. Someone else has only got it right with the person formerly known as the object of your affections (Now "that heartless bitch").
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby Rgeminas » Fri Dec 05, 2008 3:47 pm UTC

Aurora Firestorm wrote:
If they go off with someone else then someone else had the right approach. Learn from someone else, he/she is a wise man/woman.


Assertiveness = good, yes. However, in terms of specific approaches, what worked for that person may not work on the next one you're pursuing. Each case is so specific.


However, in the case that the subject in question pursues a specific type of girl (like me), understanding how to score one of them may be a great help in scoring a similar one for yourself.
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby FireZs » Fri Dec 05, 2008 3:48 pm UTC

Nah, being a "nice guy" still works. Here's how you do it:

1. Become friends with the girl
2. Ask her out
3. She says "but I see you as just a friend! NO."
4. Go have sex with multiple girls more attractive than she is
5. Ask her out again
6. She says yes!
7. Profit!

This is obviously an impossible sequence of events, but think about why it's impossible.
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby MrRubix » Fri Dec 05, 2008 3:49 pm UTC

FireZs wrote:Nah, being a "nice guy" still works. Here's how you do it:

1. Become friends with the girl
2. Ask her out
3. She says "but I see you as just a friend! NO."
4. Go have sex with multiple girls more attractive than she is
5. Ask her out again
6. She says yes!
7. Profit!

This is obviously an impossible sequence of events, but think about why it's impossible.


Damn you step 4.
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby xkcdpasta » Fri Dec 05, 2008 3:54 pm UTC

FireZs wrote:Nah, being a "nice guy" still works. Here's how you do it:

1. Become friends with the girl
2. Ask her out
3. She says "but I see you as just a friend! NO."
4. Go have sex with multiple girls more attractive than she is
4.1 Find a girl more attractive than she is and become friends.
4.2 Ask her out.
4.3 She says "but I see you as just a friend! NO."
4.4 Go have sex with multiple girls more attractive than she is
4.4.1 Find a girl more attractive than she is and become friends.
4.4..... Repeat until Jolie.
5. Ask her out again
6. She says yes!
7. Profit!

This is obviously an impossible sequence of events, but think about why it's impossible.
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby FireZs » Fri Dec 05, 2008 3:59 pm UTC

Very good guys! I hope we've learned something here today.
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby Nicole88 » Fri Dec 05, 2008 4:02 pm UTC

Funny, cuz it's true!
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I want to thank this thread for COMPLETELY CREEPING ME OUT.

Postby purpleshoes » Fri Dec 05, 2008 4:08 pm UTC

Key points:

1) Being a good friend is not like putting money in the blowjob bank. It is not like putting money in the "Oh me yarm SOME DAY WE WILL MARRY AND HAVE NERD BABIES" bank. If you are expending your precious energies on friendship with people because you expect some kind of future payoff, not because you enjoy that friendship for itself, then you are a creepster and deserve all the not-getting-laid you get.

2) "Loving" someone in a way where you seek to make them more unhappy or keep them from fulfilling their potential so that you can make them dependent and hold onto them is stupid and also creepy. And trying to emotionally coerce them into a relationship that they show no signs of particularly wanting is making someone more unhappy, so, fail all over.

3) If you're really, really stuck in the friend zone, consider the irritating but pressing question of attainability. Conventionally attractive people of all genders spend a lot of time and money to get that way, and dismissing the effort yourself while desiring the results in your intended will land you in the "I would date you but you smell faintly of feet, let's be friends" zone again and again. Yes, this sucks, but it's not actually unfair. It's precisely fair. If you're constantly demanding that other people consider you romantically even though you're kind of schlubby, you should be prepared to be as open-minded yourself. (I personally prefer to date other people who eat vegetables and exercise sometimes but would not in a million years spend valuable comic-books money on hair care products. It's worked for me!)
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby xkcdpasta » Fri Dec 05, 2008 4:11 pm UTC

The optimistic mysoginist:

1. Become friends with the girl
2. Ask her out
3. She says "but I see you as just a friend! NO."
4. Go have sex with multiple girls more attractive than she is
5. Profit

The carebear:

1. Become friends with the girl
2. Profit

Emo:

1. Become friends with the girl
2. Ask her out
3. She says "but I see you as just a friend! NO."
4. Angst
5. Poetry
6. Profit

The moth:

1. Become friends with the girl
2. Ask her out
3. She says "but I see you as just a friend! NO."
4. Ask her out
5. She says "but I see you as just a friend! NO."
6. Ask her out
7. She says "but I see you as just a friend! NO."
8. Ask her out
9. She says "but I see you as just a friend! NO."
12. Profit

The ninja:

1. Become friends with the girl
2. Ask her out
3. She says "but I see you as just a friend! NO."
4. Dispatch her swiftly and silently, flitting from her room like the breath of a shadow...
5. Profit

Randall:

1. Become friends with the girl
2. Ask her out
3. She says "but I see you as just a friend! NO."
4. Draw a cartoon.
5. Profit.
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby xkcdpasta » Fri Dec 05, 2008 4:13 pm UTC

Purple shoes - You're absolutely right. "I would date you but you smell faintly of feet, let's be friends zone" exists. The friend zone is just a silly construct used to justify a faint foot smell.
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby purpleshoes » Fri Dec 05, 2008 4:18 pm UTC

xkcdpasta - or a lack of flossing! Or an allergy to brunettes!
People are weird and shallow, which is what makes dating interesting?
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby Sidescan » Fri Dec 05, 2008 4:20 pm UTC

I nominate purpleshoes to do some of the face slapping for those people that are unwilling to do for themselves.
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Re: I want to thank this thread for COMPLETELY CREEPING ME OUT.

Postby FireZs » Fri Dec 05, 2008 4:21 pm UTC

Works the other way too:

1. Being a good fuck is not like putting money in the marriage bank. It is not like putting money in the "Oh me yarm SOME DAY WE WILL MARRY AND HAVE NERD BABIES" bank. If you are expending your precious energies on getting fucked by me because you expect some kind of future payoff, not because you enjoy getting fucked for itself, then you are a crazy bitch and deserve all the not-getting-married you get.

2. "Loving" someone in a way where you seek to make them more unhappy or keep them from fulfilling their potential so that you can make them dependent and hold onto them is stupid and also creepy. And trying to emotionally coerce them into a marriage that they show no signs of particularly wanting is making someone more unhappy, so, fail all over.
(No change needed, plenty of girls do this.)
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby FemaleEngineer » Fri Dec 05, 2008 4:21 pm UTC

Steroid:

I think you missed an Action.

Action: Meet girl. Talk to girl. Flirt with girl. Before becoming friends with girl (we're talking real friends, here... something that takes more than a couple weeks) ask girl out to dinner/coffee/date of choice.
Result: Girl is either attracted in return, is flattered, and says "yes," or girl wasn't interested in the first place and didn't flirt back/stopped returning phone calls/was all awkward around you.

For the record, this works. My now-husband managed to do the flirting/basic getting-to-know-you/sending signals of interest, and in less than a month I went from dating someone else and being in a miserable relationship to dating my now-husband, and a year later, we were engaged.

Shorter, snarkier me: It takes two to have a relationship, and if she's obviously not that in to you, then look for someone else.

I'd also like to put out two other scenarios to NOT do, one definitely more creepy than the other (and both of which have happened to me):

1) Decide you're in love with someone you've just met, has no interest in you, and isn't friends with you at all, then continue to follow/stalk said someone (and their friends, on the off chance that you might see them!) and think that you're friends with them when you're not. (I feel like this might just be poor execution of the comic, but creepy and deserving of mention, nonetheless.)

2) Pretend to be interested in someone, when you're actually only interested in friendship. (Strange reversal of the comic.) Also fairly heart-breaking to the other person if they actually fall for you, and then find out you have a long-term, long-distance relationship/fiancee.

EDIT: I'm the one who was stalked/tricked into a strange friendship, not the other way around. Just wanted to be clear: not a crazy person.

First-time poster/long time geek!
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby Archena » Fri Dec 05, 2008 4:23 pm UTC

Could we get a 'nice guys anonymous' going here?

I'm a recovering 'nice guy'. This comic reminded me of how silly that was, but in all fairness I was young. I suspect that those posting here who side with the nice guy will grow out of it too.

I'm trying to change my old ways. Met a girl I liked recently, and as a change to my usual scheme, I just plain asked her out on a date. And she said yes!

...then changed her mind and cancelled the next day :(

But still, better than the alternative.
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby mythago » Fri Dec 05, 2008 4:25 pm UTC

Aurora Firestorm wrote:I don't know what the heck this phenomenon is, girls wanting to date jerks. I mean, I've heard about it, but never seen it. I always thought it was an urban legend. I don't know any girl that wants a jerk. I don't want a jerk. I'm sure some women do, but is it really a majority, or even terribly noticeable?


See, the part you're missing is where "jerk" is defined as "any guy who is dating or having sex with a woman who won't date or have sex with you." The nicest, gentlest, smartest, most wonderful man in the world is a jerk if he's the boyfriend of a woman a Nice Guy™ wants to be with.

(And yes, there is a difference between nice guy, meaning "a guy who is a nice person," and a Nice Guy™, which is the passive-aggressive creepazoid who thinks being decent to women gets him reward points that he can eventually cash in to get laid, and who mutters darkly about how those stupid women only date jerks rather than prizes of the male half of the species i.e. him.)

Having been on the receiving end of this kind of nonsense, what I finally figured out is that part of the problem is women are trained to be nice, and not simply tell a guy no way nohow. (See: The Gift of Fear.) Tell the Nice Guy™ firmly that he may be a friend, but you do not want a relationship with him AND NEVER WILL - and then draw some solid boundaries, such as not letting him be your confidant about your relationship problems. I found that this tended to make the genuinely nice-but-pining guys happier because they weren't in emotional limbo, and the Nice Guys™ went whining off to be a limpet on some other potential target.
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Re: FireZs

Postby Sidescan » Fri Dec 05, 2008 4:25 pm UTC

Take another shot.
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby xkcdpasta » Fri Dec 05, 2008 4:29 pm UTC

I downed the bottle. And the post still didn't make sense.
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby FireZs » Fri Dec 05, 2008 4:32 pm UTC

mythago wrote:See, the part you're missing is where "jerk" is defined as "any guy who is dating or having sex with a woman who won't date or have sex with you." The nicest, gentlest, smartest, most wonderful man in the world is a jerk if he's the boyfriend of a woman a Nice Guy™ wants to be with.


No, it is possible to behave in such a way that would make you a jerk in the eyes of other men, but charming and nice to women.

Think about women who act in ways that really annoy you, but seem to be very charming to men. Same idea.
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby Jackpot » Fri Dec 05, 2008 4:33 pm UTC

*fart*

Image
Image

thanks claire.
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby xkcdpasta » Fri Dec 05, 2008 4:37 pm UTC

Genius. There's a joyful bitterness oozing from every wobbly mouse stroke!
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby purpleshoes » Fri Dec 05, 2008 4:38 pm UTC

FireZ, you're communicating this clearly, right?
And, say, not "dating" people who say up front that they're interested in your feelings?

Because calling people crazy bitches when you fail to communicate is hope-your-dick-falls-off jackassery, while saying pre-pantslessness "I just want sex, please do not call me afterwards" and dealing with the consequences is a brave hope for a better world.
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Re: I want to thank this thread for COMPLETELY CREEPING ME OUT.

Postby jfpbookworm » Fri Dec 05, 2008 4:38 pm UTC

purpleshoes wrote:If you're really, really stuck in the friend zone, consider the irritating but pressing question of attainability. Conventionally attractive people of all genders spend a lot of time and money to get that way, and dismissing the effort yourself while desiring the results in your intended will land you in the "I would date you but you smell faintly of feet, let's be friends" zone again and again.


It's amazing how much that "See, I don't want to consider that you might not be attracted to me" line gets glossed over. Nice Guys(TM) tend to assume that attractiveness is something women innately have to varying degrees; whereas attractiveness for men is totally extrinsic (i.e., "women aren't attracted to men, they're attracted to money or cars or power or fame or attitude"). As such, they can't see one of the main reasons a woman might choose someone else over his patient, pining, devoted self: she finds that someone else to be much more attractive.

Yes, this sucks, but it's not actually unfair. It's precisely fair. If you're constantly demanding that other people consider you romantically even though you're kind of schlubby, you should be prepared to be as open-minded yourself.


I don't quite agree with this, for two reasons. First, conventional attractiveness isn't a meritocracy; some conventionally attractive people put in effort, some don't put in all that much, and some people aren't going to be attractive no matter how much effort they put in. Second, while it's far less hypocritical to complain about looks bias when you're only willing to date supermodels, one's own open-mindedness doesn't guarantee that other folks will be similarly open-minded; there are plenty of people out their of both genders who are only willing to consider the top of their looks scale. Nothing to be done about it (on a personal scale, anyway), but that we can't change it doesn't make it right.
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby mythago » Fri Dec 05, 2008 4:42 pm UTC

FireZs wrote:No, it is possible to behave in such a way that would make you a jerk in the eyes of other men, but charming and nice to women.


Of course. It is also possible that 'jerk in the eyes of other men' means that you are actually kind and respectful to women, but you a) make the other guys look bad and/or b) are getting laid more than they are.

I would gently suggest that if one is pining away for a woman who doesn't reciprocate one's interest, one's judgment about her boyfriend is probably a little less than objective.
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Re: "Friends" Discussion

Postby Tanith157 » Fri Dec 05, 2008 4:43 pm UTC

By xkcdpasta
Is Tanith a girl's name? I knew a girl called Tanith once. She played Titania to my Bottom, talking of Shakespeare. If it is a girls name in this case then are you a girl looking to ask out another girl? If so, is the situation drawn here a familar one too?


Wow you read way to much into that, i'm a guy and tanith is a gaming alt I use. Its a name of planet in one of my favourite book series.
But I do know a ridiculous amount of bi girls, the comic is largely the same for them but with a lot of the talking stuff involving trying to find out if the other girl is bi/ lesbian and wondering how they'd react. I think more bi/les relationships are started though friends who know both are open to it than with hetrosexual people.

On the otherhand people who are open and confident about their sexuality are more willing to just go up to people. I remember one time I was out at a club with some mates and there was a really attractive girl. Told one of the girls that I was trying to work up the courage to go up and talk to her, she nodded her head and smiled approvingly of my attraction and said 'I think she's straight, I told her she was hot and she was a bit taken aback.' When I'd stopped laughing I went up to the girl and tried tallking to her, failed miserably. When recounted it to a differnt girl saying at least I had the confidence to try she said 'Oh my god she's so hot, I told her she had awsome hair'. That cheered me up a lot and stopped me feeling so silly.

In order to retain any sence of pride after telling this, id like to point out im 18 (British legal drinking age).
Tanith157
 
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Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2008 2:19 pm UTC

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