0541: "TED Talk"

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BwaHaHa
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Re: "TED Talk" Discussion

Postby BwaHaHa » Mon Feb 09, 2009 5:59 am UTC

Mufasa wrote:I had to register just to say this...but, it's been done before

That article is a few years old. Fuck you, Randall.


I would like to note that the Chicago Manual of Style did not have an answer for us, so the ponderings of Mr. Monroe are valid.

Also, you have been docked 5 marriage points for the use of a cuss word.
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Re: "TED Talk" Discussion

Postby auto123 » Mon Feb 09, 2009 5:59 am UTC

Finally! Someone who understands the big problems that todays' programmers face! Thank you Randall.

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Re: "TED Talk" Discussion

Postby william » Mon Feb 09, 2009 6:00 am UTC

Backwards smileys suck because you can't do =D with a backwards smiley.
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Re: "TED Talk" Discussion

Postby jspenguin » Mon Feb 09, 2009 6:02 am UTC

Wait... Asia dolphin-training convention?
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Re: "TED Talk" Discussion

Postby ACalcutt » Mon Feb 09, 2009 6:05 am UTC

You could put everything in quotes...("so its taken literally...:-)")

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Re: "TED Talk" Discussion

Postby twild1990 » Mon Feb 09, 2009 6:07 am UTC

You can't help but wonder how he got banned from the Asia Dolphin-Training Convention.

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Re: "TED Talk" Discussion

Postby Mufasa » Mon Feb 09, 2009 6:10 am UTC

BwaHaHa wrote:
I would like to note that the Chicago Manual of Style did not have an answer for us, so the ponderings of Mr. Monroe are valid.

Also, you have been docked 5 marriage points for the use of a cuss word.


True enough, I suppose.

Also, I hereby apologize for cussing. Now give me my damn marriage points back!

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Re: "TED Talk" Discussion

Postby suppressiofalsi » Mon Feb 09, 2009 6:14 am UTC

Good to see someone else out there enjoys TED.
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Re: "TED Talk" Discussion

Postby BigRig » Mon Feb 09, 2009 6:14 am UTC

haha, I used to think I was the only one who actually used parentheses in an informal internet setting. Along with commas.

Well done, Randall.

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Re: "TED Talk" Discussion

Postby tetsujin » Mon Feb 09, 2009 6:18 am UTC

The IAU ban came after the 'redefinition of 'planet' to include the IAU president's mom' incident.


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Re: "TED Talk" Discussion

Postby dr7 » Mon Feb 09, 2009 6:24 am UTC

"...(or BSD <g>)..."

I'm sad to see "<g>" falling out of favor.
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Re: "TED Talk" Discussion

Postby Storm » Mon Feb 09, 2009 6:28 am UTC

I have a feeling he got banned from the Canadian Paleontology Conference due to his concerns that raptors pose a greater threat then most in the room were concerned. On the subject at hand, I feel as though having them end like this example is just wrong: (like this :). It feels like there should be and additional bracket.
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Re: "TED Talk" Discussion

Postby regalarius » Mon Feb 09, 2009 6:33 am UTC

Hey there! I signed up just to provide my genius solution to this.

I add spaces, and offset the first word after open-parenthesis by the same number of spaces. ( This makes it more symmetrical. : - ) )

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Re: "TED Talk" Discussion

Postby EugeneSlipped » Mon Feb 09, 2009 6:42 am UTC

YES, this has always bugged me. I've always just put a space in between the emoticon and the bracket, but it's never seemed quite right.

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Re: "TED Talk" Discussion

Postby BlueNight » Mon Feb 09, 2009 6:44 am UTC

On smilies: Best guess is extra whitespace between the smile and the close-paren (like this :) ); however, the use of a semicolon quickly turns it into an unintended smiley: the winking frown.

On the furry con bans: Randall probably made a completely sensible, yet offensive statement, in a very public way. Probably something like, "...but you're already anthropomorphic chimpanzees."
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Re: "TED Talk" Discussion

Postby Socks » Mon Feb 09, 2009 6:47 am UTC

Damn! As I started reading the comic, I got so excited that he would propose a good solution, but I was let down :(

Very amusing comic! And I like all the solutions people here have come up with. I've always been a proponent of adding an extra space. But I really like the backwards smiley idea. That would also solve my problem with my favorite smiley getting messed up by the replacement thing >:(

By the way, not sure if it's been mentioned, but for those of you who are trying to show how you put your smilies, but it is converting them to forum smilies, there is a check box at the bottom that says "Disable smilies."
Last edited by Socks on Mon Feb 09, 2009 6:52 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: "TED Talk" Discussion

Postby Platypodes » Mon Feb 09, 2009 6:48 am UTC

BigRig wrote:haha, I used to think I was the only one who actually used parentheses in an informal internet setting. Along with commas.

Are you kidding? I'm incapable of carrying on a conversation without parentheses.

Also, they serve an special purpose in IM/IRC of letting one discuss primary and secondary topics without confusion. For example:

Someone: So then he said, "You just don't understand what cuckoo clocks *mean* to me..."
Someone: (my friend Catherine keeps staring at me.)
Someone: and I said I just thought it was getting a little bit out of hand, and then he threw the begonia out the window.
Otherperson: WTF?
Otherperson: The one in that big clay pot?
Otherperson: (Did you forget to feed him?)
Someone: Yeah.
Someone: (Nope.)

If I end a parenthetical statement with an emoticon, I put a space between the emoticon and the actual closing parenthesis. It's a bit ugly, but it works. It never occurred to me to omit the second ")" altogether, and I have trouble seeing it as a legitimate option... If you did that, how would you ever know if the parenthetical statement was over or if the emoticon was (as it occasionally is) in the middle of the parenthetical statement?
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Re: "TED Talk" Discussion

Postby bereka » Mon Feb 09, 2009 6:49 am UTC

This is strangely timely. My first experience with this conundrum was in writing an email approximately... six minutes ago. I went with the extra space.

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Re: "TED Talk" Discussion

Postby Socks » Mon Feb 09, 2009 6:55 am UTC

Platypodes wrote:Also, they serve an special purpose in IM/IRC of letting one discuss primary and secondary topics without confusion.


I thought I was one of the few people that did that :S My attention span is too short to have just one conversation (and I typically type faster than whomever I am talking to, so I've gotta add a second [or even a third] conversation topic for something to do)

Speaking of which, do you ever get into the situation where you're having a second conversation and then you want to start a new topic? I have gone into bracket territory before in conversations ^_^


Oh, and another random point: What about periods? When you end a sentence with a smiley, do you also include a period? I always thought of smilies as sort of like something in parenthesis, so it would follow that the period would be after the smiley, but that looks downright ugly. But if you put the period before the smiley... Ex:"I like chicken. :) It is tasty" Then it seems like the smiley is part of the next sentence... (In that case I'd probably move the smiley to the end, but you know what I mean).
Last edited by Socks on Mon Feb 09, 2009 6:59 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: "TED Talk" Discussion

Postby vodka.cobra » Mon Feb 09, 2009 6:56 am UTC

BlueNight wrote:On smilies: Best guess is extra whitespace between the smile and the close-paren (like this :) ); however, the use of a semicolon quickly turns it into an unintended smiley: the winking frown.

On the furry con bans: Randall probably made a completely sensible, yet offensive statement, in a very public way. Probably something like, "...but you're already anthropomorphic chimpanzees."

Or it was a joke.
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Re: "TED Talk" Discussion

Postby dennisw » Mon Feb 09, 2009 6:57 am UTC

regalarius wrote:Hey there! I signed up just to provide my genius solution to this.

I add spaces, and offset the first word after open-parenthesis by the same number of spaces. ( This makes it more symmetrical. : - ) )

As for symmetry, I'm starting to lean more toward the balanced smiley for that others have mentioned. Although, rather than thinking of it as being based on Spanish punctuation as evidenced in "lol", I'm thinking of it more in the style of Lisp.*

* Which could get me banned from cons, too! (Lisp pun intended) :D
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Re: "TED Talk" Discussion

Postby mystichobo » Mon Feb 09, 2009 6:58 am UTC

I have problems with both methods as they imply that the "smiley" had a double chin.

Therefor I prefer to put my emoticons outside the brackets

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Re: "TED Talk" Discussion

Postby LittleKey » Mon Feb 09, 2009 6:59 am UTC

i switch to a different smiley. =) is pretty similar to =P and =D.

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Re: "TED Talk" Discussion

Postby Socks » Mon Feb 09, 2009 7:03 am UTC

Hm, I wonder if he released a cage of robotic raptors at any of those conferences he was banned from...
(Following Gates's lead)

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Re: "TED Talk" Discussion

Postby Your.Master » Mon Feb 09, 2009 7:10 am UTC

I never thought too much about it (doing this, that is :)).

Then again, I'm not a frequent user of emoticons in contexts that don't automatically transform them into real smilies. The one exception is in a bug's regression history or in code review comments, both of which involve a lot of parentheses. I always feel like such an asshole when I call out somebody's design flaws and outright mistakes (especially mistakes-that-are-obvious-in-retrospect-but-aren't-really-because-it-took-me-hours-to-track-it-down), but I do it anyway, so I feel compelled to soften it with a smiley.

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Re: "TED Talk" Discussion

Postby Platypodes » Mon Feb 09, 2009 7:43 am UTC

Socks wrote:
Platypodes wrote:Also, they serve an special purpose in IM/IRC of letting one discuss primary and secondary topics without confusion.


I thought I was one of the few people that did that :S My attention span is too short to have just one conversation (and I typically type faster than whomever I am talking to, so I've gotta add a second [or even a third] conversation topic for something to do)

Speaking of which, do you ever get into the situation where you're having a second conversation and then you want to start a new topic? I have gone into bracket territory before in conversations ^_^

I've used brackets, but not in quite the same way.... See, sometimes I fall into a slightly different format in which a second conversation is parenthetical but clearly related to the primary one, and a third conversation is parenthetical but clearly related to the second one. In that case, the third one goes in brackets within parentheses.

For instance:
Someone: So, I told him the cuckoo clocks were getting out of hand.
Someone: (He's got 43 of them FFS!)
Someone: and he had a fit.
Otherperson: Well, it's about time you said something.
Otherperson: (Geez, where does he put them all?)
Someone: He said I just didn't understand him....
Someone: (Mostly in the dining room. It's pretty distracting at dinnertime.)
Otherperson: (I should think it would be.)
Otherperson: ([Dining room? Don't you guys have an eat-in kitchen?])
Someone: ([No, we moved a couple months ago.])
Someone: (Have you ever tried to eat with 43 clocks cuckooing at you?)
Someone: I said understanding him wouldn't make it a @#$% bit easier to live in this house anymore.
Otherperson: ([Oh yeah, forgot about that.])
Otherperson: (Can't say I have.)
Someone: Then he threw the begonia out the window.

Socks wrote: Oh, and another random point: What about periods? When you end a sentence with a smiley, do you also include a period? I always thought of smilies as sort of like something in parenthesis, so it would follow that the period would be after the smiley, but that looks downright ugly. But if you put the period before the smiley... Ex:"I like chicken. :) It is tasty" Then it seems like the smiley is part of the next sentence... (In that case I'd probably move the smiley to the end, but you know what I mean).

Does anybody actually begin sentences with smileys? I'm accustomed to smileys always referencing what was said before them, and I never thought a period would change that, so I always put the period first. =)
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Re: "TED Talk" Discussion

Postby dennisw » Mon Feb 09, 2009 7:54 am UTC

Platypodes wrote:Otherperson: ([Oh yeah, forgot about that.])
Otherperson: (Can't say I have.)
Someone: Then he threw the begonia out the window.


Ummm, why don't you just use square brackets by themselves?

Also, for additional threads or levels of nesting, you can use curly braces { } and angle brackets < >.
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Re: "TED Talk" Discussion

Postby FireCrack » Mon Feb 09, 2009 8:15 am UTC

Man, this has bugged me forever!

We need to propose an official solution, something everyone can agree on that will work.

really, when I think about it, parentheses shouldn't be part of a smiley, considering they are supposed to be paired, unless you have some wierd two-face smilies...

like so: ( : )

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Re: "TED Talk" Discussion

Postby Platypodes » Mon Feb 09, 2009 8:22 am UTC

dennisw wrote:
Platypodes wrote:Otherperson: ([Oh yeah, forgot about that.])
Otherperson: (Can't say I have.)
Someone: Then he threw the begonia out the window.


Ummm, why don't you just use square brackets by themselves?

Because then you lose the sense of multiple levels that are in the same spirit as traditional parenthesis use (in which brackets within parentheses [like this] are proper). It's just a little nuance, but it seems to fit with how those conversations develop for me.
dennisw wrote:Also, for additional threads or levels of nesting, you can use curly braces { } and angle brackets < >.

Been there with the curly braces once or twice. I don't think I've ever had to take it as far as angle brackets. Just as well since I use those a lot for fake HTML and it'd be confusing to mix usages.
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Re: "TED Talk" Discussion

Postby eviloatmeal » Mon Feb 09, 2009 8:24 am UTC

FireCrack wrote:really, when I think about it, parentheses shouldn't be part of a smiley, considering they are supposed to be paired, unless you have some wierd two-face smilies...

This is very much my philosophy. I will favor a more "correct" syntax over keeping the parenthesis from looking weird if I am in need of inserting a smiley.

I actually have a few personal (until now) unwritten rules regarding smileys. A few of them include:

- Always include one space before and after a smiley.
- Do not include multiple spaces before or after a smiley.
- A smiley often serves as adequate pause in "speech", replacing the functionality of a comma (but only in informal contexts (and also potentially full stops (in even more informal contexts))).
- The = is a much more satisfying way of representing the eyes of a smiley.

Examples:

"Oh man, I need to use the bathroom =/ I'll be right back."

"... Linux (or BSD =) ) would..."

Also note my habit of putting a space after triple dots, but not before. I like this habit.
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Re: "TED Talk" Discussion

Postby phillipsjk » Mon Feb 09, 2009 8:37 am UTC

Random832 wrote:...Linux (or BSD ) would...

I think you win the thread...

Can't be represented in standard 7bit ASCII though. (I know the IBM character set has it, but how standard is that?)
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Re: "TED Talk" Discussion

Postby The Schwarz » Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:02 am UTC

Random832 wrote:
dennisw wrote:Similarly, I like how title text pretty much forces you to nest single quotes. I suppose you could fake it with doubled single quotes like so:

The IAU ban came after the ''redefinition of 'planet' to include the IAU president's mom'' incident.


gah... &quot;!

as in <img alt="TED Talk" title="The IAU ban came after the &quot;redefinition of 'planet' to include the IAU president's mom&quot; incident. (alt: TED Talk)" src="http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/ted_talk.png" />


Didn't anyone here hear of escaping? It works for as many levels as you want.
"The IAU ban came after the 'redefinition of \'planet\' to include the IAU president\'s mom' incident"

Oh, and as for the smileys - I prefer the C++-template approach: put a separating space between the smiley and the parentheses (like this :) ). This way, it doesn't look as weird/ugly as without a space (like this :)), it's easier to parse (for humans, at least), and if any automatic-thingy turns it into an actual smiley-picture, it still looks OK.

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Re: "TED Talk" Discussion

Postby drustvold » Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:06 am UTC

What about using literals.

so ...Linux (or BSD ':)' )

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Re: "TED Talk" Discussion

Postby JessicaDru » Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:14 am UTC

I second that japanese emote faces are much more conducive to code:
^_^
^_~ etc...

Also, did anyone attend the Bill conference this weekend? like Ted, but different.

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Re: "TED Talk" Discussion

Postby ThemePark » Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:15 am UTC

LordLandon wrote:
flexfalelo wrote:I use backwards smileys (:

Advantages:
- No annoying emoticon replacements.
- Smile looks down on the sentence it applies to.
- Slightly better bracket performance (this is an example (: )

- consistency
*all* emoticons are right-tilted, rather than having =) =( etc left-tilted, but D= and <3 right-tilted


I'm a big proponent of "backwards" smileys C=

But you can't do =D

Also, I prefer the first method (:)

That is all. ^^
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Platypodes wrote:...

If I end a parenthetical statement with an emoticon, I put a space between the emoticon and the actual closing parenthesis. It's a bit ugly, but it works. It never occurred to me to omit the second ")" altogether, and I have trouble seeing it as a legitimate option... If you did that, how would you ever know if the parenthetical statement was over or if the emoticon was (as it occasionally is) in the middle of the parenthetical statement?

If the emoticon is in the middle of the parenthetical statement, there is no such problem.
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Re: "TED Talk" Discussion

Postby Platypodes » Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:17 am UTC

drustvold wrote:What about using literals.

so ...Linux (or BSD ':)' )

Putting other punctuation marks next to a smiley without spacing runs the risk of their seeming to be part of it, though.... And you wouldn't want a smiley that's raising one eyebrow while drooling.

Edit: or maybe you would. Who am I to judge?
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Re: "TED Talk" Discussion

Postby Additives » Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:57 am UTC

BigRig wrote:haha, I used to think I was the only one who actually used parentheses in an informal internet setting. Along with commas.

Well done, Randall.


The use of punctuation in an informal setting, however losely, is still important to maintain easy readability. If we so easily let commas (and for that matter, parentheses), soon we will become overwhelemd with text walls as parigraphys and periods go down the drain.
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Re: "TED Talk" Discussion

Postby william » Mon Feb 09, 2009 10:08 am UTC

mystichobo wrote:I have problems with both methods as they imply that the "smiley" had a double chin.

Therefor I prefer to put my emoticons outside the brackets

I actually know somebody who does all of his smilies with double parens: i.e. =)) (although with : instead of = but if I used : you wouldn't be able to see the smilie)
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Re: "TED Talk" Discussion

Postby Gero » Mon Feb 09, 2009 10:11 am UTC

I'm thinking () parentheses are evol! Don't use them for anything but emoticons. If you find you're making a sentence and you're interrupting yourself, finish the sentence and get back to the second thought when you're done. I understand people used to need parentheses and the ability to break words in half for pagination back in the day they were doing it all by hand. Maybe you're writing with your quail pen, using your best ink, on some priceless parchment. You don't want to make mistakes, so if you haven't formulated a sentence well but you've already started writing it when you realise that, you need parentheses. Or maybe you come to the end of the page and the word isn't done. Fine, break it across to the next line. But now you're typing on a pc and everything you type isn't written in stone any more. If you want to come back later and improve your sentence, feel free. If you want to interrupt yourself, do so. But please come back afterwards and rethink the build and do better. The pc gives you that chance, please use it and you'll never need the parentheses again. And then you'll have all the emiticons your heart desires without any parentheses problems. No double chin ever!

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Re: "TED Talk" Discussion

Postby BigglesPiP » Mon Feb 09, 2009 10:24 am UTC

You need to escape the 1st right parenthesis:

...linux (or BSD :\) ) would...


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