0541: "TED Talk"

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Re: "TED Talk" Discussion

Postby NThisStyle-10-6 » Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:38 am UTC

Reading halfway down the first page (instead of doing my required reading for my French class tomorrow, note), I have realized that enough people have already said what I logged in to post: I would TOTALLY watch a Ted Talk with either Mr. Munroe or the particular stickman portraying him in today's comic.

When that happens, there should be instant dissemination of information around the internets, although I'll probably not catch on until much, much later.

So yeah. To the Trobaritz!

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Re: "TED Talk" Discussion

Postby LockeXT » Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:42 am UTC

The correct way to do it is of course out of the parentheses. Like so: Blah blah blah (this is my comment) :)
so :P (:P)

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Re: "TED Talk" Discussion

Postby phantom16 » Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:48 am UTC

lol, i have always had this problem myself, it helps when some forums actually make it into a smiley for you, so you have a normal parentheses ending it. of course there is this one forum that will instead make the smiley into a really big smiley and completely dropping the last parentheses...

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Re: "TED Talk" Discussion

Postby drustvold » Tue Feb 10, 2009 6:12 am UTC

Platypodes wrote:
drustvold wrote:What about using literals.

so ...Linux (or BSD ':)' )

Putting other punctuation marks next to a smiley without spacing runs the risk of their seeming to be part of it, though.... And you wouldn't want a smiley that's raising one eyebrow while drooling.

Edit: or maybe you would. Who am I to judge?


It would be a surprisingly more accurate depiction.

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Re: "TED Talk" Discussion

Postby josephoenix » Tue Feb 10, 2009 6:47 am UTC

I don't have that problem, because, for some reason, I use brackets instead of parenthesis. So it'd be
tra la la [witty comment :-) ] more la la la
I speak the truth that shakes the silent night.

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Re: "TED Talk" Discussion

Postby Etni » Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:07 am UTC

A writer should try to avoid putting smilies in brackets, but if it's unavoidable, a space helps, so that it's not (like this [imath]:)[/imath]) but (like this [imath]:)[/imath] ). In forums where smilies automatically convert into images, it's not a problem because they look (like this :)).

I liked the solution where the smiley was turned around (like this [imath](:[/imath] ). Never thought of that one. Looks better!

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Re: "TED Talk" Discussion

Postby misterbubbles » Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:45 am UTC

I laughed so hard. Best xkcd I've seen in a really long time.

Coulda done without the last frame though.

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Re: "TED Talk" Discussion

Postby Fougare » Tue Feb 10, 2009 8:34 am UTC

"get out of my head" moment...

As said on the first page, emoticons should be used on "informal" situations, while proper parenthesis (as well as colon, semicolon, hyphen, and excessive list-forming comas) should be utilized in formal writing. However many times we write "semi" formal in forums and thus we have to mix them together, which was the case in a specific forum I frequent and I wasted about half an hour trying to figure out how to put the :) inside the ( ) without it looking odd... I think I'll stick with the "one or three" spaces

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Re: "TED Talk" Discussion

Postby Raistlan » Tue Feb 10, 2009 11:02 am UTC

josephoenix wrote:I don't have that problem, because, for some reason, I use brackets instead of parenthesis. So it'd be
tra la la [witty comment :-) ] more la la la


I registered to say that I also have used brackets instead of paranthesis since college 15 years ago. One of the reasons that I started doing that was for precisely this reason. I put a space after that smiley, as well [because I don't want people to try to figure out what the "square jaw" means :) ].

I once had a manager tell me that it annoyed him at first, but that he cut me some slack since I was very consistent with it.

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Re: "TED Talk" Discussion

Postby Monika » Tue Feb 10, 2009 12:26 pm UTC

Random832 wrote:
Monika wrote:I think using -- is a reasonable solution whereever dashes are not easily available. I am certainly not going to drag out the charachter map to create a dash on a forum or e-mail.

Alt-0151

Doesn't work on Linux. And I am not going to write a custom keyboard layout. -- is just fine. Even - is okay.
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Re: "TED Talk" Discussion

Postby dan3ny » Tue Feb 10, 2009 2:42 pm UTC

My issue with rendering : - ) as :-) is with character-set translation. When a " :-) " is sent to me from Outlook, Thunderbird chooses to show me instead, the letter 'J.' My brain has become quite accustomed to doing the translation, but it occurs to me that I have no idea if non-TBird users have any idea that this quirk exists. Or even if it's just me.

Next topic: What is the correct way to quote an emoticon? I tried above, but I'll admit I wasn't up to the task.

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Re: "TED Talk" Discussion

Postby dan3ny » Tue Feb 10, 2009 2:52 pm UTC

ConMan wrote:As for those asking why people do not use the emotional tags such as <g>, the answer should be simple - they are no longer standards-compliant, and should be replaced by a more modern equivalent <g />.


I'm having trouble parsing the RFC 2119 statement.

<g /> ? Or <g/> ?

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Re: "TED Talk" Discussion

Postby RanCorp » Tue Feb 10, 2009 2:55 pm UTC

Monika wrote:
Random832 wrote:
Monika wrote:I think using -- is a reasonable solution whereever dashes are not easily available. I am certainly not going to drag out the charachter map to create a dash on a forum or e-mail.

Alt-0151

Doesn't work on Linux. And I am not going to write a custom keyboard layout. -- is just fine. Even - is okay.

On Linux: Press and hold right SHIFT, then press right CTRL then release them both and type three hyphens and voilá: —

It may sound clumsy, but once you start doing it, it quickly develops into "muscle memory" (a.k.a. a basal ganglia reflex). Basically, you just kind of "roll" across the right-hand SHIFT and CTRL keys from top to bottom and then hit the key combination that yields the character you want.

The em-dash is, in fact, the easiest of all to use, since it uses only one distinct key after the compose initiation sequence. For a long list of compose keys for Linux, see http://hermit.org/Linux/ComposeKeys.html

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Re: "TED Talk" Discussion

Postby Clumpy » Tue Feb 10, 2009 4:53 pm UTC

And what about attempting to use possessives with words in quotation marks?

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Re: "TED Talk" Discussion

Postby Random832 » Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:17 pm UTC

dan3ny wrote:My issue with rendering : - ) as :-) is with character-set translation. When a " :-) " is sent to me from Outlook, Thunderbird chooses to show me instead, the letter 'J.'


That's because outlook uses the wingdings font instead of proper unicode.

The alt code for a proper unicode is..... Alt-1. I kid you not. It comes out a bit small in most fonts, though, i'm posting it here at 150%

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Re: "TED Talk" Discussion

Postby tetsujin » Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:59 pm UTC

Random832 wrote:
tetsujin wrote:
Random832 wrote:
Monika wrote:I think using -- is a reasonable solution whereever dashes are not easily available. I am certainly not going to drag out the charachter map to create a dash on a forum or e-mail.


Alt-0151

(Alt codes I have memorized: 0128, 0133, 0145-0148, 0149, 0150-0151, 0163, 1 ☺, 15, 20, 21, 0215)

Also, a bit of time spent with MSKLC can be very useful.

Of course, there are also alternatives for other systems - there's already a keyboard layout with option stuff on mac, and it's easy to write a new keyboard layout for X11 for linux/bsd


Works better if you have a numeric keypad, I bet. Does the alt+numpad thing work in Linux? I can't remember.


Nothing wrong with Alt-Fn-mjij.


Not all keyboards without numpad emulate it... Happy Hacking, for instance... Really, if it weren't for Blender I wouldn't even bother with the numpad.
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Re: "TED Talk" Discussion

Postby redking » Tue Feb 10, 2009 6:16 pm UTC

re: TED Talk, I go for "(that's what she said :) )" - as a programmer (you, not me), it would seem that to co-opt the closing parenthesis for the smilie would be more problematic than having the "unbalanced" look that 3 gives you...

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Re: "TED Talk" Discussion

Postby tetsujin » Tue Feb 10, 2009 6:21 pm UTC

redking wrote:re: TED Talk, I go for "(that's what she said :) )" - as a programmer (you, not me), it would seem that to co-opt the closing parenthesis for the smilie would be more problematic than having the "unbalanced" look that 3 gives you...


Yeah, the lexer parses the whole smiley as a single token. :D
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Re: "TED Talk" Discussion

Postby Brooklynxman » Tue Feb 10, 2009 6:25 pm UTC

http://pycon.blogspot.com/2009/02/randall-munroe.html

So thats what Randall did at that one. :)

In other words I think my screen is permenently damaged from spit out coke
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Re: "TED Talk" Discussion

Postby ryzvonusef (1151717) » Tue Feb 10, 2009 6:28 pm UTC

princessstacey wrote:It depends if the smiley is going to be turned into a picture or not.

(this looks fine :) )
(... and this : )
(... but not :)
(... or : ))



I like this version...
I swear I have faced this problem for so long!

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Re: "TED Talk" Discussion

Postby Shakauvm » Tue Feb 10, 2009 6:42 pm UTC

I always use the first way.

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Re: "TED Talk" Discussion

Postby DVC » Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:20 pm UTC

One solution would be not to actually use parentheses but instead use the word 'parenthetically' to begin a section in a comma pair, or parenthetically a dash pair :), that would work.

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Re: "TED Talk" Discussion

Postby sadleric » Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:53 pm UTC

TheSkyMovesSideways wrote:Interesting. So what if you wanted to indicate that a comment was an aside, or lessen the importance of a component of a sentence (such as an example appended to the end of a question in order to aid understanding, without distracting from the question itself)?


When I write casual forum posts, instant messages, and most emails, I try to keep my diction consistent with informal register. As such, I keep in mind the most important element of casual writing: quick readability. Smiley faces in my writing is used as the result of an aside or inside joke, so I think they are naturally indicative of a tangent or unimportant thought. Hell, how many IRC / IM users observe formal punctuation? The smiley faces seem to be a form of punctuation in and of itself -- a means of giving the tone of a response without face-to-face contact.

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Re: "TED Talk" Discussion

Postby ManaUser » Tue Feb 10, 2009 8:20 pm UTC

ConMan wrote:For example, if the statement were "I have to go in to work over the weekend (but then I have the following week off) :)", then removing the parenthesis leaves "I have to go in to work over the weekend :)", implying that the writer is pleased about having to work on the weekend rather than having time off (which we would assume is the more pleasing event).

Only because you failed to terminate the statement with a period. Had you included it, its placement after the emoticon would have revealed that the emoticon went with the parenthetical statement (and should should have been removed with it) :P.

dan3ny wrote:I'm having trouble parsing the RFC 2119 statement.

<g /> ? Or <g/> ?

<g/> is the "most correct", but <g /> is backwards compatible with traditional HTML.

Random832 wrote:The alt code for a proper unicode is..... Alt-1. I kid you not. It comes out a bit small in most fonts, though, i'm posting it here at 150%

Or ALT+2 if you're black... not to be racist or anything. :wink:

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Re: "TED Talk" Discussion

Postby Random832 » Tue Feb 10, 2009 8:28 pm UTC

what if it's in bright text on a black background?

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Re: "TED Talk" Discussion

Postby Monika » Tue Feb 10, 2009 8:32 pm UTC

RanCorp wrote:
Monika wrote:
Random832 wrote:
Monika wrote:I think using -- is a reasonable solution whereever dashes are not easily available. I am certainly not going to drag out the charachter map to create a dash on a forum or e-mail.

Alt-0151

Doesn't work on Linux. And I am not going to write a custom keyboard layout. -- is just fine. Even - is okay.

On Linux: Press and hold right SHIFT, then press right CTRL then release them both and type three hyphens and voilá: —

It may sound clumsy, but once you start doing it, it quickly develops into "muscle memory" (a.k.a. a basal ganglia reflex). Basically, you just kind of "roll" across the right-hand SHIFT and CTRL keys from top to bottom and then hit the key combination that yields the character you want.

The em-dash is, in fact, the easiest of all to use, since it uses only one distinct key after the compose initiation sequence. For a long list of compose keys for Linux, see http://hermit.org/Linux/ComposeKeys.html

RanCorp

Oh, how neat :) . And thanks for the extensive list!

Shift+Ctrl is not my compose key, though. I have set it to be the right windows key or the menu key next to it (one can press the one or the other, no need to press both). On my laptop, which lacks windows and menu keys, I have set it to the capslock key. I use it for ç ñ ø and as I prefer the nodeadkeys setting also for é è à ô, but I was not aware that I could do — so easily.
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Re: "TED Talk" Discussion

Postby Quantum Jack » Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:58 pm UTC

Mufasa wrote:I had to register just to say this...but, it's been done before
No links before you've introduced yourself with 5+ posts, please. Although this link goes to my favourite website in the world ever (The Chicago Manual of Style! However, I do prefer MLA, which is a prerequisite for these forums), and one I spend my days trawling through, so I'll allow it. Also it's pretty pertinent.

That article is a few years old. Fuck you, Randall.


The website you referred to asked the question, but failed to give an answer. Until there is an answer it is important to keep asking the question. Example:

Why does the apple fall?

I don't know... oh well. (result: physics never advances, or any science for that matter)

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Re: "TED Talk" Discussion

Postby dawesbr » Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:29 pm UTC

I haven't seen anyone else mention this:

No links before we know who you are. (This means >5 posts)

Yup, it was posted on TED!

EDIT: Evidently they're fans. Read the title.

Here's the text of what may be the correct the link back, if anyone wants to read it. - Hammer
http://blog.ted.com/2009/02/his_tedtalk_on.php

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Re: "TED Talk" Discussion

Postby OBloodyHell » Tue Feb 10, 2009 11:04 pm UTC

My usual solution (goes like this ;-) Heh.)

But that's just me.

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Re: "TED Talk" Discussion

Postby bersl2 » Tue Feb 10, 2009 11:43 pm UTC

Monika wrote:
RanCorp wrote:
Monika wrote:Doesn't work on Linux. And I am not going to write a custom keyboard layout. -- is just fine. Even - is okay.

On Linux: Press and hold right SHIFT, then press right CTRL then release them both and type three hyphens and voilá: —

It may sound clumsy, but once you start doing it, it quickly develops into "muscle memory" (a.k.a. a basal ganglia reflex). Basically, you just kind of "roll" across the right-hand SHIFT and CTRL keys from top to bottom and then hit the key combination that yields the character you want.

The em-dash is, in fact, the easiest of all to use, since it uses only one distinct key after the compose initiation sequence. For a long list of compose keys for Linux, see http://hermit.org/Linux/ComposeKeys.html

RanCorp

Oh, how neat :) . And thanks for the extensive list!

Shift+Ctrl is not my compose key, though. I have set it to be the right windows key or the menu key next to it (one can press the one or the other, no need to press both). On my laptop, which lacks windows and menu keys, I have set it to the capslock key. I use it for ç ñ ø and as I prefer the nodeadkeys setting also for é è à ô, but I was not aware that I could do — so easily.

You can set things such as compose keys ("multi-key"), group shifting keys (for changing language), and other shifts (level3 and level5 keys) through xorg.conf (Option "XkbOptions" in the keyboard section) or at runtime with setxkbmap. I have left shift+right shift to change my groups en_US <-> polytonic Greek, so I can do all sorts of awesomeness. ἄλλα; (Damnit, my dead circumflex is... well, dead.) I have it so that right alt is the 3rd level modifier, so I can use extra dead keys (formerly had it mapped to give all vowels macrons), and shift+right alt is my compose key. āēīōūȳ (Very useful for distinguishing manus from manūs, puella from puellā, and so on.)

But the rest of you probably have fancy GUI tools to do this for you. If you prize your sanity, you should not go digging around in the xkb files with the intent to actually understand them. The configuration language has almost no official documentation, and I had to look around for a while to find something that made it all make enough sense to actually create a (partial) symbol table (my previous solution for adding macrons, before I found out about Compose).

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Re: "TED Talk" Discussion

Postby dean.menezes » Tue Feb 10, 2009 11:45 pm UTC

Monika wrote:
Random832 wrote:
Monika wrote:I think using -- is a reasonable solution whereever dashes are not easily available. I am certainly not going to drag out the charachter map to create a dash on a forum or e-mail.

Alt-0151

Doesn't work on Linux. And I am not going to write a custom keyboard layout. -- is just fine. Even - is okay.

Compose, hyphen, hyphen, hyphen.

I have my menu key set to be compose.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compose_key

Also in GNOME, Ctrl-Shift-U 2014

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Re: "TED Talk" Discussion

Postby dan3ny » Tue Feb 10, 2009 11:54 pm UTC

sadleric wrote:When I write casual forum posts, instant messages, and most emails, I try to keep my diction consistent with informal register.


A hyperextraverbal oxymoron, or what-ever one might call a contradiction that consumes far more than its share of two words. I'm not sure whether to call you on it, or applaud you for it.

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Re: "TED Talk" Discussion

Postby dan3ny » Tue Feb 10, 2009 11:59 pm UTC

ManaUser wrote:
ConMan wrote:For example, if the statement were "I have to go in to work over the weekend (but then I have the following week off) :)", then removing the parenthesis leaves "I have to go in to work over the weekend :)", implying that the writer is pleased about having to work on the weekend rather than having time off (which we would assume is the more pleasing event).

Only because you failed to terminate the statement with a period. Had you included it, its placement after the emoticon would have revealed that the emoticon went with the parenthetical statement (and should should have been removed with it) :P.

Do I read correctly that you are advocating creating an exception to standard accepted practices in advocating punctuating a subordinate clause as if it were a complete sentence? :!!??!!:

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Re: "TED Talk" Discussion

Postby Platypodes » Wed Feb 11, 2009 2:17 am UTC

ManaUser wrote:
ConMan wrote:For example, if the statement were "I have to go in to work over the weekend (but then I have the following week off) :)", then removing the parenthesis leaves "I have to go in to work over the weekend :)", implying that the writer is pleased about having to work on the weekend rather than having time off (which we would assume is the more pleasing event).

Only because you failed to terminate the statement with a period. Had you included it, its placement after the emoticon would have revealed that the emoticon went with the parenthetical statement (and should should have been removed with it) :P.

Let me see if I'm following this about the period...

Are you saying that if the sentence were,
I have to go in to work over the weekend (but then I have the following week off) :).
then the period would somehow indicate that the emoticon goes with the parenthetical statement? 'Cause if so, I don't see it working that way at all.

Let's substitute something else for the emoticon. If you write,
I have to go in to work over the weekend (but then I have the following week off, yay).
the comma and the "yay" go with the parenthetical statement. But if you write,
I have to go in to work over the weekend (but then I have the following week off), yay.
the comma and the "yay" go with the nonparenthetical part.

That is, you read the nonparenthetical statement by dropping the parentheses and whatever is between them, which in this case leaves you with,
I have to go in to work over the weekend, yay.
I don't see why this would be any different with emoticons than with words.
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Re: "TED Talk" Discussion

Postby Random832 » Wed Feb 11, 2009 3:58 am UTC

dawesbr wrote:I haven't seen anyone else mention this:

No links before we know who you are. (This means >5 posts)

Yup, it was posted on TED!

EDIT: Evidently they're fans. Read the title.


Did anyone catch the link before it was censored? Best I can find is http://blog.ted.com/2009/02/his_tedtalk_on.php#comments but that doesn't fit with the title being the first indication that "they" are XKCD fans

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Re: "TED Talk" Discussion

Postby cranberrytuna » Wed Feb 11, 2009 4:44 am UTC

Meloncov wrote:I wonder what would happen if they actually did invite Randall to speak at siggraph.


My head would quite explode from awesomeness. On that note, this comic made my night because i've always wondered that AND i'm looking forward to siggraph. What a coincidence!! Oh me yarm guys! Randall's in my head!! (does anyone else think it's weird calling him by his first name when you don't know him.... I'm sarah by the way, randall, so now we're on even terms... sort of)

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Re: "TED Talk" Discussion

Postby ConMan » Wed Feb 11, 2009 5:20 am UTC

Random832 wrote:
dawesbr wrote:I haven't seen anyone else mention this:

No links before we know who you are. (This means >5 posts)

Yup, it was posted on TED!

EDIT: Evidently they're fans. Read the title.


Did anyone catch the link before it was censored? Best I can find is http://blog.ted.com/2009/02/his_tedtalk_on.php#comments but that doesn't fit with the title being the first indication that "they" are XKCD fans

I think M. Random is suggesting that the title, which refers to another xkcd strip, indicates that the person who posted that blog entry is a fan of the comic since they were aware of the other strip. Of course, they may have just browsed the recent archives and found that one.
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Re: "TED Talk" Discussion

Postby Random832 » Wed Feb 11, 2009 6:07 am UTC

bersl2 wrote:You can set things such as compose keys ("multi-key"), group shifting keys (for changing language), and other shifts (level3 and level5 keys) through xorg.conf (Option "XkbOptions" in the keyboard section) or at runtime with setxkbmap. I have left shift+right shift to change my groups en_US <-> polytonic Greek, so I can do all sorts of awesomeness. ἄλλα; (Damnit, my dead circumflex is... well, dead.) I have it so that right alt is the 3rd level modifier, so I can use extra dead keys (formerly had it mapped to give all vowels macrons), and shift+right alt is my compose key. āēīōūȳ (Very useful for distinguishing manus from manūs, puella from puellā, and so on.)

But the rest of you probably have fancy GUI tools to do this for you. If you prize your sanity, you should not go digging around in the xkb files with the intent to actually understand them. The configuration language has almost no official documentation, and I had to look around for a while to find something that made it all make enough sense to actually create a (partial) symbol table (my previous solution for adding macrons, before I found out about Compose).


I never learned xkb, mainly because I started doing this before dists were configured to use it out of the box. My tools were Xkeycaps (a somewhat clunky GUI that could graphically edit the keyboard and save an xmodmap file) and xmodmap (whose -pke option would create a file with a mostly self-explanatory format). I'm no longer on linux though.

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Re: "TED Talk" Discussion

Postby Monika » Wed Feb 11, 2009 2:34 pm UTC

bersl2 wrote:I have it so that right alt is the 3rd level modifier, so I can use extra dead keys (formerly had it mapped to give all vowels macrons), and shift+right alt is my compose key.

On German keyboards, there is no right alt key, instead there is Alt Gr, which is needed for writing @€|~²³{[]}\ on Windows (on Linux there are lots more available, every letter and number has a character with Alt Gr, too). Is this the same as 3rd level modifier? E.g. @ = Alt Gr + a, ² = Alt Gr + 2.
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Random832
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Re: "TED Talk" Discussion

Postby Random832 » Wed Feb 11, 2009 2:41 pm UTC

Monika wrote:
bersl2 wrote:I have it so that right alt is the 3rd level modifier, so I can use extra dead keys (formerly had it mapped to give all vowels macrons), and shift+right alt is my compose key.

On German keyboards, there is no right alt key, instead there is Alt Gr, which is needed for writing @€|~²³{[]}\ on Windows (on Linux there are lots more available, every letter and number has a character with Alt Gr, too). Is this the same as 3rd level modifier? E.g. @ = Alt Gr + a, ² = Alt Gr + 2.


"3rd level" - or, properly, "Level 3 Shift" is the ISO 9995 term for Alt Gr (The traditional X11 concept is "Mode_Switch", and the existence of both on current X11 systems can cause some confusion.). Alt Gr itself is the keycap label.


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