0625: "Collections"

This forum is for the individual discussion thread that goes with each new comic.

Moderators: Moderators General, Prelates, Magistrates

Domovoi
Posts: 215
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2007 9:37 am UTC

Re: "Collections" Discussion

Postby Domovoi » Thu Aug 20, 2009 5:10 pm UTC

Guess what! Maybe you are exaggerating the evils of DRM? After all, why should the other guy always be wrong about this?

User avatar
Zorlin
Posts: 950
Joined: Sat May 30, 2009 2:31 am UTC
Location: Perth, Western Australia

Re: "Collections" Discussion

Postby Zorlin » Thu Aug 20, 2009 5:18 pm UTC

neoliminal wrote:Would SOMEONE please just write a freaking perl script to do this faster than any human could do it? I'm so freaking tired of the pissing war that lasts for pages about who was FRIST PIST <sic>.
Will paypal $20 and my dignity if this works.

I wrote a SCAR script that does this. It correctly formats the post, and gives me an opportunity to add commentary before posting. It takes about 5-7 seconds to completely build the post, as it allows for lag in loading the page, switching tabs and such.

I have another one which, when combined with ReloadEvery, will automatically trigger the other one when the comic is posted.

I don't use them much because it's not meant to be a contest, but if I posted them would you paypal me your dignity?
Mysterious wizard rabbit of unknown proportions.

Check out #xkcd-hugs movie night! Watch movies with your fellow xkcdians.

Meaux_Pas wrote:You're all mad.

User avatar
neoliminal
Posts: 626
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2009 6:39 pm UTC

Re: "Collections" Discussion

Postby neoliminal » Thu Aug 20, 2009 5:54 pm UTC

Zorlin wrote:
neoliminal wrote:Would SOMEONE please just write a freaking perl script to do this faster than any human could do it? I'm so freaking tired of the pissing war that lasts for pages about who was FRIST PIST <sic>.
Will paypal $20 and my dignity if this works.

I wrote a SCAR script that does this. It correctly formats the post, and gives me an opportunity to add commentary before posting. It takes about 5-7 seconds to completely build the post, as it allows for lag in loading the page, switching tabs and such.

I have another one which, when combined with ReloadEvery, will automatically trigger the other one when the comic is posted.

I don't use them much because it's not meant to be a contest, but if I posted them would you paypal me your dignity?



I think you are miss quoting me, sir. You and your púca are trying to seriously undermine my attempt to create unanimous restraint in the community.

I'm not willing to pay for a script, I'm willing to pay for people, ALL people to restrain themselves for 1 hour. (although on hindsight I'm just moving the marker back an hour...)

But should no one post for an hour, the first one to post the thread after an hour will get my $20 and self respect. Any sooner and I keep my $20 and self respect... dammit.

Now you and your púca go and cut and past my .sig some places already.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0073YYXRC
Read My Book. Cost less than coffee. Will probably keep you awake longer.
[hint, scary!]

User avatar
Zorlin
Posts: 950
Joined: Sat May 30, 2009 2:31 am UTC
Location: Perth, Western Australia

Re: "Collections" Discussion

Postby Zorlin » Thu Aug 20, 2009 6:06 pm UTC

Bleh, I did misquote - I must have missed that last part when removing the rest.

That sounds pretty good - but I want your self-respect, and I know for a fact that such a thing would not occur. If regular readers of the forums are showing restraint, newbies will post a thread and be like "zomg i cant beleive thur wasnt one yetz" and we're back where we started.
Mysterious wizard rabbit of unknown proportions.

Check out #xkcd-hugs movie night! Watch movies with your fellow xkcdians.

Meaux_Pas wrote:You're all mad.

User avatar
neoliminal
Posts: 626
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2009 6:39 pm UTC

Re: "Collections" Discussion

Postby neoliminal » Thu Aug 20, 2009 7:15 pm UTC

Zorlin wrote:Bleh, I did misquote - I must have missed that last part when removing the rest.

That sounds pretty good - but I want your self-respect, and I know for a fact that such a thing would not occur. If regular readers of the forums are showing restraint, newbies will post a thread and be like "zomg i cant beleive thur wasnt one yetz" and we're back where we started.


You'll have to find something else to exchange for my self respect. However I'll warn you that as far as self respect goes, mine is pretty light.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0073YYXRC
Read My Book. Cost less than coffee. Will probably keep you awake longer.
[hint, scary!]

User avatar
Zorlin
Posts: 950
Joined: Sat May 30, 2009 2:31 am UTC
Location: Perth, Western Australia

Re: "Collections" Discussion

Postby Zorlin » Thu Aug 20, 2009 7:49 pm UTC

neoliminal wrote:You'll have to find something else to exchange for my self respect. However I'll warn you that as far as self respect goes, mine is pretty light.

I'd settle for the $20, actually.
Mysterious wizard rabbit of unknown proportions.

Check out #xkcd-hugs movie night! Watch movies with your fellow xkcdians.

Meaux_Pas wrote:You're all mad.

User avatar
neoliminal
Posts: 626
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2009 6:39 pm UTC

Re: "Collections" Discussion

Postby neoliminal » Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:13 pm UTC

Zorlin wrote:
neoliminal wrote:You'll have to find something else to exchange for my self respect. However I'll warn you that as far as self respect goes, mine is pretty light.

I'd settle for the $20, actually.


Me too.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0073YYXRC
Read My Book. Cost less than coffee. Will probably keep you awake longer.
[hint, scary!]

Valisk
Posts: 3
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2009 1:42 pm UTC

Re: "Collections" Discussion

Postby Valisk » Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:50 pm UTC

You will probably all revile me for saying this.
Even if you have read all of Terry Pratchett's books, i don't think you have fully experienced them until you have listened to Nigel Plainer and or Stephen Briggs. They bring the books to life in such a way as I would not have believed until I heard it myself.

My personal favorite character to hear is Detritus. Then probably the Nak Mak Feegle.

What a strange coincidence that they are both read with a Scottish accent.


Anyway, for the main Discworld line the Vimes story line is my favorite, then for the side lines Tiffany Aching is tops.

What do you guys think is the best?

As far as the comic is concerned.

About 9.5 gig should do for all of the audio books off of Audible.com :D

User avatar
phillipsjk
Posts: 1213
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2008 4:09 pm UTC
Location: Edmonton AB Canada
Contact:

Re: "Collections" Discussion

Postby phillipsjk » Fri Aug 21, 2009 1:06 am UTC

Domovoi wrote:Guess what! Maybe you are exaggerating the evils of DRM? After all, why should the other guy always be wrong about this?


You may be correct. As I suggested, here is Article 11 of the 1996 WIPO treaty:
WIPO wrote:Contracting Parties shall provide adequate legal protection and effective legal remedies against the circumvention of effective technological measures that are used by authors in connection with the exercise of their rights under this Treaty or the Berne Convention and that restrict acts, in respect of their works, which are not authorized by the authors concerned or permitted by law.
- http://www.wipo.int/treaties/en/ip/wct/trtdocs_wo033.html

Read and understand. It should take over 5 minutes. By that I mean: every word is significant.

Am I wrong? Am I exaggerating the evils of DRM?

Hint: Is the Article self-consistent?

PS: What definition of "or" are they using? I am assuming a logical OR. More likely "choose exactly one."
Did you get the number on that truck?

osj1961
Posts: 7
Joined: Fri Aug 14, 2009 4:20 pm UTC

Re: "Collections" Discussion

Postby osj1961 » Fri Aug 21, 2009 2:04 am UTC

phillipsjk wrote:
Domovoi wrote:Guess what! Maybe you are exaggerating the evils of DRM? After all, why should the other guy always be wrong about this?


You may be correct. As I suggested, here is Article 11 of the 1996 WIPO treaty:
WIPO wrote:Contracting Parties shall provide adequate legal protection and effective legal remedies against the circumvention of effective technological measures that are used by authors in connection with the exercise of their rights under this Treaty or the Berne Convention and that restrict acts, in respect of their works, which are not authorized by the authors concerned or permitted by law.
- http://www.wipo.int/treaties/en/ip/wct/trtdocs_wo033.html

Read and understand. It should take over 5 minutes. By that I mean: every word is significant.

Am I wrong? Am I exaggerating the evils of DRM?

Hint: Is the Article self-consistent?

PS: What definition of "or" are they using? I am assuming a logical OR. More likely "choose exactly one."


Does it really matter if they're using an inclusive or exclusive "or" in this sentence? FWIW I think they mean "choose one or the other,
or both."

-Joe

User avatar
pbnjstowell
Posts: 74
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2009 5:35 am UTC
Location: Middle of Washington, USA

Re: "Collections" Discussion

Postby pbnjstowell » Fri Aug 21, 2009 7:32 am UTC

Valisk wrote:You will probably all revile me for saying this.
Even if you have read all of Terry Pratchett's books, i don't think you have fully experienced them until you have listened to Nigel Plainer and or Stephen Briggs. They bring the books to life in such a way as I would not have believed until I heard it myself.

I do not revile you.
If only audiobooks were as cheap as paperbacks! Of these, I'd own both.
I love Nigel.

I 'read' most of Terry's books for the first time through my ears.

I had actually read a couple random ones before, but then I got a job where I sat in one place and did a lot of mindless work... so I had to do something else with my brain. My library had an amazing books-on-tape collection, and I kept going back to Pratchett again and again.

(As a side note: If you're trying to listen to books to stay awake, don't use A Brief History of Time, or The Silmarillion.)
Never trust a dog with orange eyebrows.

User avatar
phillipsjk
Posts: 1213
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2008 4:09 pm UTC
Location: Edmonton AB Canada
Contact:

Re: "Collections" Discussion

Postby phillipsjk » Fri Aug 21, 2009 7:38 am UTC

osj1961 wrote:Does it really matter if they're using an inclusive or exclusive "or" in this sentence? FWIW I think they mean "choose one or the other,
or both."

-Joe


I this case, I think the answer is "no," it does not matter. More important is the relationship of the word 'or' to the word 'and'.

I interpret it to mean any laws passed must penalize both:
  • Acts (with respect to their works) which are not authorized by the authors concerned.
  • Acts (with respect to copyrighted works in general) which are not permitted by law.


My interpretation may be wrong, that is why I ask. I neglected to detail my exact feelings on DRM (aside from the alien landing analogy, and that it is evil) .

Edit:
pbnjstowell wrote:As a side note: If you're trying to listen to books to stay awake, don't use A Brief History of Time, or The Silmarillion.

LOL: It may vary from person to person.
Did you get the number on that truck?

Domovoi
Posts: 215
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2007 9:37 am UTC

Re: "Collections" Discussion

Postby Domovoi » Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:32 am UTC

phillipsjk wrote:
Domovoi wrote:Guess what! Maybe you are exaggerating the evils of DRM? After all, why should the other guy always be wrong about this?


You may be correct. As I suggested, here is Article 11 of the 1996 WIPO treaty:
WIPO wrote:Contracting Parties shall provide adequate legal protection and effective legal remedies against the circumvention of effective technological measures that are used by authors in connection with the exercise of their rights under this Treaty or the Berne Convention and that restrict acts, in respect of their works, which are not authorized by the authors concerned or permitted by law.
- http://www.wipo.int/treaties/en/ip/wct/trtdocs_wo033.html

Read and understand. It should take over 5 minutes. By that I mean: every word is significant.


Okay.

Am I wrong? Am I exaggerating the evils of DRM?


Yes.

Mortlach
Posts: 1
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2009 2:03 pm UTC

Re: "Collections" Discussion

Postby Mortlach » Fri Aug 21, 2009 2:08 pm UTC

I love Terry Pratchett's work. Im fairly sure I have all his novels in English and also in Dutch, my native tongue. Being fond of translating, I always want to see what the translator made of the puns or play on words.

sithwalrus
Posts: 13
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 8:12 pm UTC

Re: "Collections" Discussion

Postby sithwalrus » Fri Aug 21, 2009 2:43 pm UTC

W00T!!!!
diskworld FTW!!!!
thats all i had to say really... i don't think the comic was that funny though.

User avatar
phillipsjk
Posts: 1213
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2008 4:09 pm UTC
Location: Edmonton AB Canada
Contact:

Re: "Collections" Discussion

Postby phillipsjk » Sat Aug 22, 2009 3:29 am UTC

Domovoi wrote:
phillipsjk wrote:Am I wrong? Am I exaggerating the evils of DRM?


Yes.


I am going assume you weren't just being "contrary" or "cute."

To answer your original question, I have reason to believe I am not exaggerating the effects of DRM because I try to use specific examples:
  • Devices must obey two masters. For example, DVD players may refuse to respond to specific user button presses at the discretion of the DVD producer.
  • An "authorized player" is needed to play back "protected content." This implies that the concept of a "general-purpose" computer is obsolete; at least for consumer use.
  • High Definition Content Protection over HDMI/DVI connections has no direct benefit for the end-user. Consumers are asked to put up with more expensive, less reliable, and more power-hungry devices for the privilege of viewing "premium content."

Since I am not exaggerating about what DRM actually does, we must have a fundamental disagreement over whether it is actually evil.

I assert that any legislation implementing Article 11 of the 1996 WIPO treaty must be evil because it is not self-consistent, while imposing heavy penalties.

The Article requires "effective legal remedies" (meaning jail time) "against the circumvention of" ('circumvention' means 'to render ineffective, avoid') "effective technological measures" (meaning DRM) "that are used by authors in connection with the exercise of their rights under this Treaty ..." (This part is a little muddy for me). Truly "effective" "technological measures" would not need legal protection, hence the contradiction. This contradiction is a major problem because "effective legal remedies" are required to prevent you from looking behind the curtain.

Dropping the word "effective" from "technological measures" would not be any better. In that case, it would be possible to violate the law without realizing it. For example, if an auto-loading file (using autorun.ini) is used to implement "copy protection," somebody using an alternate OS such as GNU/Linux or Mac OS (or a locked-down Windows installation) would have no obvious way of knowing which files are "copy protected." DRM is an attempt to put the genie back in the bottle. Major electronic companies such as "Hitachi, Intel, (Panasonic), Sony and Toshiba" (Intel DTCP page) are working hard to put it back, but there is reason to believe that DRM can never be truly effective.

Returning to "that are used by authors in connection with the exercise of their rights under this Treaty ...":
This implies that DRM must conform to copyright law (else be open to circumvention). The reason I call this section "muddy" is that IMHO, it is a legal mess. Some exceptions to copyright law, such as "fair use" are not clear until decided by a judge in a court of law. In the case of DRM, programmers for the content providers or lawyers for licensing administrators (in the distribution key sense) are interpreting copyright law. This makes any Government-backed DRM scheme biased in favor of the "content producers" at the expense of the general public. There is another effect as well: with every "consumer device" locked down by DRM, the barrier to entry for distributing new, independent content is raised.

The Article is one long run-on sentence, but the following portion worries me as well: "and that restrict acts, in respect of their works, which are not authorized by the authors concerned." Assuming that 'and' goes with "Contracting Parties shall provide adequate legal protection and effective legal remedies," the above paragraph is moot. A publisher could develop some kind of weird geo-fenced DRM for their e-book that prevents you from reading it in the bathroom ("for safety reasons") and there would be nothing (legal) you could to about it. That is to say, I believe that section allows publishers to write their own arbitrarily restrictive copyright laws.

Please point out where I over-looked something or made an error in logic.

I believe that the powers granted by the 1996 copyright treaty (Article 11 in particular) are completely unreasonable, and ignore the contributions every individual makes to their culture. Legislating that digital works be more restrictive than analog works [Citation Needed]1 appears to be an attempt to turn back progress, and as such, is evil. That is not to say the old way of doing things is evil: on the contrary. The direct attempt to manipulate scientific progress in order to preserve copyright[Citation Needed]2 is what is evil.

Further Reading (I don't claim to have read all the information listed):

  1. I used to think the goal of DRM was to make digital works act more like analog works (for example: forcing transcoding on every copy; degrading quality). Now, I am not so sure.
  2. I think it is not yet clear if DRM will encourage or stifle Computing Science research.

Edit: It's GNU/Linux, not just "Linux."
Last edited by phillipsjk on Wed Dec 09, 2009 6:05 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
Did you get the number on that truck?

User avatar
pbnjstowell
Posts: 74
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2009 5:35 am UTC
Location: Middle of Washington, USA

Re: "Collections" Discussion

Postby pbnjstowell » Mon Aug 24, 2009 6:34 am UTC

phillipsjk wrote:Edit:
pbnjstowell wrote:As a side note: If you're trying to listen to books to stay awake, don't use A Brief History of Time, or The Silmarillion.

¡This cheese is burning me!: It may vary from person to person.


Agreed. Results may vary.

Both are amazing books. But they require full attention in order to process. Let me rephrase... "If you're trying to listen to books to stay awake while doing anything more brain-consuming than stirring soup, don't use the aforementioned..."
Never trust a dog with orange eyebrows.

User avatar
neoliminal
Posts: 626
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2009 6:39 pm UTC

Re: "Collections" Discussion

Postby neoliminal » Thu Sep 23, 2010 5:09 pm UTC

Best new comic in awhile, although I think the iPad has replaced the Kindle. I feel sad for the girl, but ultimately she is right.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0073YYXRC
Read My Book. Cost less than coffee. Will probably keep you awake longer.
[hint, scary!]


Return to “Individual XKCD Comic Threads”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 112 guests