0651: "Bag Check"

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fanas
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Re: "Bag Check" Discussion

Postby fanas » Mon Oct 19, 2009 6:42 pm UTC

hemflit wrote:Fanas, I don't know where you live or how much and what you fly - this is the common state of commercial passenger flight worldwide. The only difference in the US is that they insist more on taking your shoes off, and they make more of those (pseudo?)random extra checks. Nowhere in the world will you get a bottle of water onboard.

I'm not sure, I never been on a plane. I just find those security measures stupid. I could bet my ass that even if we removed all the security checkpoints, that there would be hardly any hijackings.

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Me321
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Re: "Bag Check" Discussion

Postby Me321 » Mon Oct 19, 2009 6:51 pm UTC

Comic JK wrote:I've thought this every time I entered the Empire State Building with my laptop--they have metal detectors, x-ray machines, etc. The system is so easy to subvert that it seems to exist more as a calming device. Really, it would only stop idiots.



Security stops the idiot terrorist, and intelligence stops the smart organized ones, all we have to worry about is the one loner that can sneak past both.

Muffinman42
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Re: "Bag Check" Discussion

Postby Muffinman42 » Mon Oct 19, 2009 6:55 pm UTC

What makes me laugh is the fact they give you the materials to make a knife on board the plane (plates, trays, plastic forks can all be broken to make a sharp edge). You could knock somebody out if you hit them hard enough with anything blunt.

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Re: "Bag Check" Discussion

Postby thicknavyrain » Mon Oct 19, 2009 6:58 pm UTC

Here's an amusing anecdote:

A friend of mine was recently chastised by the Indian border patrol for trying to take chillis on board the plane, which apparently could have been used to "blind the staff or passengers" or some shit like that. They walked him to the bin and made them throw them all away, even though he'd paid for them. Guess what they serve as plane food?

Personally, I think if he could have taken over the plane using chillis, he fucking deserves the plane.
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fanas
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Re: "Bag Check" Discussion

Postby fanas » Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:02 pm UTC

thicknavyrain wrote:Here's an amusing anecdote:

A friend of mine was recently chastised by the Indian border patrol for trying to take chillis on board the plane, which apparently could have been used to "blind the staff or passengers" or some shit like that. They walked him to the bin and made them throw them all away, even though he'd paid for them. Guess what they serve as plane food?

Personally, I think if he could have taken over the plane using chillis, he fucking deserves the plane.

Damn this, urge to hijack a plane is rising.

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Re: "Bag Check" Discussion

Postby Nitrocloud » Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:35 pm UTC

You'll need more than a hand grenade to hijack a normal commercial flight of a couple hundred passengers. Even if you have an M16, fully automatic, you'll be down for good by the time the first mag is empty. If you have a knife, you'll be down when the first person grabs a fire extinguisher or purse. If you have a grenade, you'd have a less painful death through suicide. Even if you had somehow killed all the John and Jane Does and even our beloved Bubbas, you'd be hard pressed getting through the cockpit door without a sizable explosive.

This is barring there being an Air Marshall on-board, in which case you're extremely hosed.

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Re: "Bag Check" Discussion

Postby Calski » Mon Oct 19, 2009 8:12 pm UTC

Nobody have mention on of the most common weapons on board. Tax-free alcohol. Sure you might not be able to hijack the plane but if you smash the bottles you have a stabbing weapon and if you ignite the alcohol you are gonna cause some trouble.

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Re: "Bag Check" Discussion

Postby SpringLoaded12 » Mon Oct 19, 2009 8:22 pm UTC

slightlydead wrote:A questioning look, in hand a bottle of liquid
the guard asks, nitroglycerin or gatorade?
I protest, everything in my bag is insipid
except the makeshift battery grenade


WIN.


Yes, Mr. Going-through-security-guy, you can overvolt your batteries given the proper wires and other equipment, which looks a helluva lot more like a bomb than just the batteries. Also, you can tear apart the soda cans they give you during the flight and make a crude but razor-sharp makeshift blade out of that. Bravo on finding one of the many small flaws in the paranoid TSA security regulations.

While airport regulations could be a lot worse, they're actually more lenient in other countries.
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Magic Molly
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Re: "Bag Check" Discussion

Postby Magic Molly » Mon Oct 19, 2009 8:43 pm UTC

SpringLoaded12 wrote:
slightlydead wrote:A questioning look, in hand a bottle of liquid
the guard asks, nitroglycerin or gatorade?
I protest, everything in my bag is insipid
except the makeshift battery grenade


WIN.


Yes, Mr. Going-through-security-guy, you can overvolt your batteries given the proper wires and other equipment, which looks a helluva lot more like a bomb than just the batteries. Also, you can tear apart the soda cans they give you during the flight and make a crude but razor-sharp makeshift blade out of that. Bravo on finding one of the many small flaws in the paranoid TSA security regulations.

While airport regulations could be a lot worse, they're actually more lenient in other countries.


Oh god, i once flew through israel. El al (the security there, for their main airline) gives you so many hoops to jump through. I was in a group, and every single one of us had to be individually interviewed to make sure they didn't think we might be planning something.

On a side note, though more time consuming, individual interviews, by trained people who had infinite stamina and did not know boredom, would be better than our current system.

Graff
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Re: "Bag Check" Discussion

Postby Graff » Mon Oct 19, 2009 8:53 pm UTC

What's amazing to me is you don't need any explosives at all to make a weapon:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girandoni_Air_Rifle

This is the gun that Lewis & Clark carried on their expedition. It was very effective and only used compressed air as a propellent for the bullets. You could create a simple weapon using a plastic tube, ceramic rounds, and a bladder to contain compressed air. It would be easily hidden in parts among your carry-on luggage and would be virtually undetectable.

You could also have parts of a metal frame of a carry-on case scored so that you could easily take it out and snap it into several sharp knives. When it goes through the scanner all it will appear to be is a flat metal bar that is part of the frame for the luggage.

There are also tons of toxic substances which are inert, harmless, and fairly undetectable under normal circumstances but with an electrical source (such as a laptop battery) you could dissociate them into a much more harmful form, say in the airplane bathroom.

I'm glad that there is a modicum of security in airports, it creates a barrier for the random irate person who might cause a disturbance on a whim. It also calms and reassures most ordinary passengers that travel is safe and that they are being protected. However, I don't think that any of the measures in place will stop a smart and determined terrorist from causing major trouble. All we are doing are making the terrorists find easier targets.

Besides which, does anyone honestly think that a terrorist could hijack a plane these days? Most people I know would rather jump the terrorist and make them kill everyone/crash the plane rather than have a repeat of the 9/11 Twin Towers attack.

cyberblade
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Re: "Bag Check" Discussion

Postby cyberblade » Mon Oct 19, 2009 9:12 pm UTC

Magic Molly wrote:Oh god, i once flew through israel. El al (the security there, for their main airline) gives you so many hoops to jump through. I was in a group, and every single one of us had to be individually interviewed to make sure they didn't think we might be planning something.

On a side note, though more time consuming, individual interviews, by trained people who had infinite stamina and did not know boredom, would be better than our current system.


I'll grant you that Israeli airport security is quite stricter that the US (I have not flown through there myself, but several family members have). However, there are several key points I think the US could learn from them-as you pointed out.

First off, these are trained professionals performing courteously, quickly, and quite excellently. They are also well compensated for their level on intelligence and professionalism. You'll be allowed your tweezers, but I've never heard of a reporter sneaking a gun or knife on "just for show". They interview every single passenger before boarding, and these agents are trained to look for any signs of deception, etc. They also check your ID against several databases, FBI, Interpol, and Shin Bet at least, probably more.

Secondly, this is no theater-this is not one point of show while the rest of the country, or the airport queue's are easy targets. Every El Al flight carries at least 2 trained operatives with firearms... No silly "Air Marshal", but military/spec ops/counter terrorist trained agent. And their cockpits have double doors with extra reinforcement, besides being piloted by ex fighter pilots. The planes also have missile countermeasures.

So yeah, here in the US we spend billions on theater... Let's make up our minds, either do it right-harden everything, or let it go. The one good thing that has come of this is the reinforced cockpits for the US. At this point, the most an attacker can do is destroy the plane, and a determined attacker will be able to until you step it up to the Israeli level.

Realistically though, security is about tradeoffs-making the effort not worth the reward. If the person is a raving lunatic (committing suicide to murder civilians pretty much puts them in that category for me, no matter their reasons) there is no way to make it not worth the reward... On a more practical basis, reinforced cockpit doors mean that there will not be another 9/11.

Here's a more likely scenario, one even I could do (and afford if I actually wanted to), an rpg fired out the top of a vehicle from the cellphone waiting lot in LAX (the landing planes come in a couple hundred feet up, nice and slow) would take out at least one plane, likely a couple, or part of a building or something as it crashed while having the effect of shutting down all air travel nationwide for days, LAX for a week or two likely, public transport in general nationwide... And you'll be driving off into downtown before anyone is near you (and an rpg isn't that difficult to come by in LA).

Yeah, it's ok, I'm already on a few lists no doubt from previous travel patterns so this doesn't really matter... But just in case, we were playing poker, all night.

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jakemaheu
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Re: "Bag Check" Discussion

Postby jakemaheu » Mon Oct 19, 2009 9:13 pm UTC

We're all going to end up on the FBI's watch list, people.

Great comic here, I've felt this way for a long time.

We take several laptops when we fly, usually a Toughbook (10lbs and made of metal for bludgeoning) and a Sylvania G Netbook (lithium-ion battery for explosion). The chargers are both about a pound each, so when swung around by the cords, they'd be quite painful. The detached part of the cords could be used to strangle someone. I'm a diabetic (type 1), so I also carry a vial of insulin (can kill non-diabetics, or could be replaced with an explosive solution), syringes (stabby), as well as lancets for testing my blood sugar. My headphones have a roughly 10-foot long rubbery cable, so more strangling there. I always keep several pens and pencils in a portfolio, which I enjoy drawing in (HL2:DM level design), so there's a few more stabbings. I also use a Nokia N800 Internet Tablet, which has a lithium-ion battery as well. It's also got a metal faceplate and two SD card slots, which I could hide shortened razor blades in. I'll occasionally bring along a screwdriver or something in case I need to tinker with one of my gadgets, so there's a few puncture wounds. My deck of cards could, of course, papercut several people too. The rechargable batteries I bring for the camera can explode under the right conditions, and the books that I bring could be used to hit someone. My dad occasionally goes to Las Vegas, too, and there are matchbooks in it when I get the bag back, so those can light things on fire (in-flight molotov cocktail, anyone?) and also burn people. Also, any cables that I bring (USB and many others) could choke people.

EDIT: And the plastic bags I carry my diabetic supplies could be used to suffocate someone, along with the Glucagon kits I bring (OUCH!)

Then there's always the pipe bombs.
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ivan85
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Re: "Bag Check" Discussion

Postby ivan85 » Mon Oct 19, 2009 9:42 pm UTC

When my unit deployed to Iraq we had more guns then people on board. We still couldn’t bring bottled water or full size shampoo bottle though.

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Re: "Bag Check" Discussion

Postby phillipsjk » Mon Oct 19, 2009 10:11 pm UTC

I think the terrorist themselves have done more to stop Hijackings than the TSA.

Let's pretend you are a non-suicidal terrorist, and you want to Hijack a plane for ransom. How are you going to pull that off without the passengers and crew assuming the worst and killing you?
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cyberblade
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Re: "Bag Check" Discussion

Postby cyberblade » Mon Oct 19, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

ivan85 wrote:When my unit deployed to Iraq we had more guns then people on board. We still couldn’t bring bottled water or full size shampoo bottle though.

Once again I'd like to emphasize the difference between trained professionals making rules and people who are forced to enforce stupid rules (I'm hoping that whomever enforced those rules only did so because they had to, not because they thought they were "doing the right thing").

This is what our theater brings us...

Automatic weaponsCheck
Live ammunitionCheck
Bottled waterNegative, too dangerous

nekomata
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Re: "Bag Check" Discussion

Postby nekomata » Mon Oct 19, 2009 10:20 pm UTC

Last time I flew I got into trouble for using an old memory DIMM as a key fob.
What did they think I was going to do? Fight my way to the onboard computers, take them apart mid flight, insert my stick of memory, then crash or take over the plane??

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Re: "Bag Check" Discussion

Postby Dobblesworth » Mon Oct 19, 2009 11:17 pm UTC

A certain keyring I have had attached to my house keys for 5-10 years now is this little bottle-opener. Essentially it handles the metal caps on your average Grolsch/Magners/Becks/Bulmers beverage; its bluntness means a little bit of positioning is needed.
Think it was last Christmas, somewhere en route in between Newcastle & Australia, or maybe the return flight, this little keyring got some particular attention. Must have flown with it tonnes of times in advance, but no, this happy chappy went for that keyring, gave it a shuftie, passed it over to his supervisor, who, possibly seeing how ineffective it was, smiled and waved me on.
Several years ago in France I got a bag check for a mathematical compass set. Frenchie initially tried strip-searching my teddy bear to see if it had drugs/a bomb/machete inside. 2002-ish I think; was probably after 11/9, but certainly not "500ml-soft-drink-Gate".

Kalos
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Re: "Bag Check" Discussion

Postby Kalos » Tue Oct 20, 2009 12:28 am UTC

Looks like Randy decided to jump on the bandwagon 5 years after even the lamest stand up comedians gave up on these jokes.

Anyway, if you want to deter terrorism, I feel like the Italian approach of "armed guards patrolling with unholstered sub-machine guns" kept me away from any pranking last time I was there.

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Re: "Bag Check" Discussion

Postby birdita » Tue Oct 20, 2009 12:30 am UTC

I'm going to be really upset if this ruins laptops on planes for everyone.


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Re: "Bag Check" Discussion

Postby Levi » Tue Oct 20, 2009 1:03 am UTC

A lot of these weapons you're talking about would be rather useless in taking over a plane (blunt objects, aluminum can razors, etc.). No one seems to have mentioned poisonous gases yet. Bring some of that and threaten to open it. Is the cockpit airtight?

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jakemaheu
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Re: "Bag Check" Discussion

Postby jakemaheu » Tue Oct 20, 2009 1:12 am UTC

Levi wrote:A lot of these weapons you're talking about would be rather useless in taking over a plane (blunt objects, aluminum can razors, etc.). No one seems to have mentioned poisonous gases yet. Bring some of that and threaten to open it. Is the cockpit airtight?


I suppose that the cockpit isn't airtight-- I've seen the door open on a lot of flights. How much poisonous gas could you store in a thermos/Nalgene bottle? Also, would it react with x-rays from the scanner?
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Magic Molly
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Re: "Bag Check" Discussion

Postby Magic Molly » Tue Oct 20, 2009 1:32 am UTC




Image

"In this situation, the best response would be to move away from the laptop quickly."

Really?

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Re: "Bag Check" Discussion

Postby gavinfoxx » Tue Oct 20, 2009 2:07 am UTC

If the poisonous gasses are like MOST poisonous gasses, they would just drop the air masks...

And airplanes are pressurized.. at high altitude. Low altitude planes are more likely to be open to the air at some point...

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Re: "Bag Check" Discussion

Postby essenceofthedark » Tue Oct 20, 2009 2:17 am UTC

xtifr wrote:
hemflit wrote: Nowhere in the world will you get a bottle of water onboard.

Yes, they figured out that liquids can be explosives. Once they figure out that solids and gases can also be explosives, the only thing you'll be allowed to carry onto a plane will be plasmas, neutronium, and maybe a black hole. :D

Actually, in Norway you can't get even an empty bottle aboard because of explosive gases XP NO bottles over the limit gets through security check.

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Re: "Bag Check" Discussion

Postby essenceofthedark » Tue Oct 20, 2009 2:19 am UTC

Muffinman42 wrote:What makes me laugh is the fact they give you the materials to make a knife on board the plane (plates, trays, plastic forks can all be broken to make a sharp edge). You could knock somebody out if you hit them hard enough with anything blunt.

lol, here they give us metal cutlery :D metal knives, yay!

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Re: "Bag Check" Discussion

Postby essenceofthedark » Tue Oct 20, 2009 2:27 am UTC

Nitrocloud wrote:You'll need more than a hand grenade to hijack a normal commercial flight of a couple hundred passengers. Even if you have an M16, fully automatic, you'll be down for good by the time the first mag is empty. If you have a knife, you'll be down when the first person grabs a fire extinguisher or purse. If you have a grenade, you'd have a less painful death through suicide. Even if you had somehow killed all the John and Jane Does and even our beloved Bubbas, you'd be hard pressed getting through the cockpit door without a sizable explosive.

This is barring there being an Air Marshall on-board, in which case you're extremely hosed.

I have several comments to this.

1. If you want to hijack a plane, you don't start shooting people right off the bat. You threaten everyone to stay calm by taking a hostage, which is a lot more effective because even hero-complex people don't want to be the indirect cause of someone else's death. Risking your own life is easier.

2. Even if you start shooting stabbing people, you would still make a lot of damage.

3. Terrorists rarely care about how 'comfortable' their deaths are. I doubt the guys hijacking the planes on 9/11 cared so much about that. Especially religious people thinking 'I'll get my reward in heaven' or even other people thinking 'it's for the greater good, I don't give a fuck about myself' wouldn't care about such trivialities.

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Re: "Bag Check" Discussion

Postby Faranya » Tue Oct 20, 2009 2:35 am UTC

jakemaheu wrote:We're all going to end up on the FBI's watch list, people.


Pfft, they have no jurisdiction here.

Regardless, there is always some way to cause havoc. It isn't worth the time and money (in my opinion) to get too bent out of shape over.
Image

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Re: "Bag Check" Discussion

Postby Richard. » Tue Oct 20, 2009 3:23 am UTC

Unforgiven wrote:
The infrastructure for it would be very, very complicated though.

If complication saves lives, then let it be complicated.
we live in a beautiful world.

Spoiler:
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zkcow
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Re: "Bag Check" Discussion

Postby zkcow » Tue Oct 20, 2009 4:26 am UTC

hemflit wrote:Edited to add:
Fanas, I don't know where you live or how much and what you fly - this is the common state of commercial passenger flight worldwide. The only difference in the US is that they insist more on taking your shoes off, and they make more of those (pseudo?)random extra checks. Nowhere in the world will you get a bottle of water onboard.


Actually this just isn't at all correct.

I live in New Zealand, where we are decidedly not as paranoid about air security. It may amaze you to know that we can take water onto any flight (provided it isn't going to the US). We can bring it through security, drink it wherever we like - whatever. It might amaze even more to know that we don't we have security screening in many of our airports. If it has less than 90 seats (I think) you don't need to be security checked at all. Beech 1900Ds, Bombardier Q300s, ATRs, etc flying up and down the country and no one has been security checked. It's really great actually. And we very rarely have incidents too. Domestic jet flights (ie 737s) are screened with metal detectors and xrays though.

At some airports, you can walk in one side of the terminal (landside) and walk right up to the windows that face airside. From there you can walk to the gates and not ever be stopped. Sometimes, there's actually no one to stop you walking right out on to the apron. It's once you're out there you get stopped by the Aviation Security guys.

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Re: "Bag Check" Discussion

Postby Magic Molly » Tue Oct 20, 2009 4:32 am UTC

zkcow wrote:
hemflit wrote:Edited to add:
Fanas, I don't know where you live or how much and what you fly - this is the common state of commercial passenger flight worldwide. The only difference in the US is that they insist more on taking your shoes off, and they make more of those (pseudo?)random extra checks. Nowhere in the world will you get a bottle of water onboard.


Actually this just isn't at all correct.

I live in New Zealand, where we are decidedly not as paranoid about air security. It may amaze you to know that we can take water onto any flight (provided it isn't going to the US). We can bring it through security, drink it wherever we like - whatever. It might amaze even more to know that we don't we have security screening in many of our airports. If it has less than 90 seats (I think) you don't need to be security checked at all. Beech 1900Ds, Bombardier Q300s, ATRs, etc flying up and down the country and no one has been security checked. It's really great actually. And we very rarely have incidents too. Domestic jet flights (ie 737s) are screened with metal detectors and xrays though.

At some airports, you can walk in one side of the terminal (landside) and walk right up to the windows that face airside. From there you can walk to the gates and not ever be stopped. Sometimes, there's actually no one to stop you walking right out on to the apron. It's once you're out there you get stopped by the Aviation Security guys.


Newsflash- I doubt the world would care too much if something like 9/11 happened to New Zealand.

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Re: "Bag Check" Discussion

Postby zkcow » Tue Oct 20, 2009 5:53 am UTC

Magic Molly wrote:Newsflash- I doubt the world would care too much if something like 9/11 happened to New Zealand.


Newsflash - that's irrelevant. The point is, hemflit claimed "nowehere in the world will you get a bottle of water onboard". That is factually inaccurate. I was pointing out that fallacy. There are plenty of places where you can get a bottle of water on board an aircraft (commercial, general and military aviation). New Zealand is just one example of such a place (and it's a good example, because I'm personally familiar with it and NZ is bigger and "more important" than say, Samoa, where you can also get a water bottle on a plane).

Oh and another newsflash - I doubt the world cares too much about stupid water bottle rules (or your opinion either). Actually I think the world would care - an attack on NZ would show that terrorism is alive and well and doesn't just go for big, major, obvious targets. Surely you can see that.

Edit: I didn't think water had much to do with 9/11 actually.

dainbramage
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Re: "Bag Check" Discussion

Postby dainbramage » Tue Oct 20, 2009 10:37 am UTC

The not allowing water has to do with a supposed plot to blow up a britain to america flight using bottles of MEKP, not 9/11.

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Re: "Bag Check" Discussion

Postby zkcow » Tue Oct 20, 2009 11:18 am UTC

dainbramage wrote:The not allowing water has to do with a supposed plot to blow up a britain to america flight using bottles of MEKP, not 9/11.


Yeah I realise the liquids ban is more recent and not directly related to 9/11. However it was Magic Molly that associated the liquids with 9/11 in the first place :)

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Re: "Bag Check" Discussion

Postby Eikinkloster » Tue Oct 20, 2009 11:29 am UTC

essenceofthedark wrote:1. If you want to hijack a plane, you don't start shooting people right off the bat. You threaten everyone to stay calm by taking a hostage, which is a lot more effective because even hero-complex people don't want to be the indirect cause of someone else's death. Risking your own life is easier.

2. Even if you start shooting stabbing people, you would still make a lot of damage.


You can always make a lot of damage. That shouldn't ease your way into the cockpit though. Not after 9/11.
Israel hasn't had any episode of hijacking since they set up sealed cockpits, as far as I know. It probably goes like, terrorist: "open the door or I blow the plane", israeli: "whatever", terrorist: "I mean it", israeli: "it sucks, but whatever", terrorist: "*frustration*".

Taking hostages isn't an universal solution into taking people into submission. Actually, submiting before hostages is the sure way to encourage people to take hostages. I for once would *never* drop my gun because of hostages.
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Re: "Bag Check" Discussion

Postby semaJJames » Tue Oct 20, 2009 11:57 am UTC

I can't believe anyone hasn't thought of mercury yet.
Probably quite easy to hide in a laptop etc... and just think of the disruption a campaign of indiscriminately spilling mercury on a number of planes and then telling the autorities about 1 plane that had been targeted would cause.
They would probably have to inspect every single plane!

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Re: "Bag Check" Discussion

Postby jakemaheu » Tue Oct 20, 2009 12:08 pm UTC

semaJJames wrote:I can't believe anyone hasn't thought of mercury yet.
Probably quite easy to hide in a laptop etc... and just think of the disruption a campaign of indiscriminately spilling mercury on a number of planes and then telling the autorities about 1 plane that had been targeted would cause.
They would probably have to inspect every single plane!


"OPEN THE COCKPIT DOOR OR I CAUSE POTENTIAL LONG-TERM BRAIN DAMAGE WITH THIS VIAL OF MERCURY!"
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Re: "Bag Check" Discussion

Postby Ezbez » Tue Oct 20, 2009 12:16 pm UTC

I love how some big, fancy airports have those air-puffing machines that I guess sniff out chemicals or whatever. Of course, no one could go to a small airport without one of those and then take a conveniently located airplane ride right in past all the high tech security. Yeah, that definitely wouldn't work.

Zauderer
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Re: "Bag Check" Discussion

Postby Zauderer » Tue Oct 20, 2009 12:48 pm UTC

Eikinkloster wrote:It probably goes like, terrorist: "open the door or I blow the plane", israeli: "whatever", terrorist: "I mean it", israeli: "it sucks, but whatever", terrorist: "*frustration*".


El-Al has very strict security guidelines, with every bag checked for explosives and depressurized, interviews of all passengers, and so on.

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Miss_Me
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Re: "Bag Check" Discussion

Postby Miss_Me » Tue Oct 20, 2009 1:08 pm UTC

I'm probably the least-intimidating-looking person ever and I was swiped for explosives the last time I went through an airport :?

They asked me if I had a laptop in my bag (after all of the massive signs to take them out and place them on a tray) to which I replied "no". They thought they felt one in my bag and glared at me (it was a hard-cover folio); when they discovered what it was, they warned me to be careful with my dull-edged, albeit heavy, folio...

They also ignored the fact I had a pair of stilettos and an empty, glass water bottle in my bag :roll: surely they could do more damage?


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