0657: "Movie Narrative Charts"

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Benzene
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Re: "Movie Narrative Charts" Discussion

Postby Benzene » Mon Nov 02, 2009 11:35 pm UTC

Luke kills Yoda? Thanks for ruining the movie for me.
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Re: "Movie Narrative Charts" Discussion

Postby usernamesstink » Mon Nov 02, 2009 11:44 pm UTC

SpringLoaded12 wrote:Dammit, now LotR seems confusing to me. Now I have to go watch the movies again. Arwen is the elf girl who killed the evil hooded guy in that one battle, right? And the evil hooded guy is called Nazgul? Or was it Eowyn who killed him, now that I look at the graph again?
I could never keep track of the names.

I do hope 12 Angry Men is not as boring as it appears on the graph.
I do hope I don't watch Primer.

enigma343 wrote:HEY

Image

NO

I'm sorry to be the damn fanboy, but Fett does not die! For that matter, I'd love to see an extended universe chart, although that would take quite a while. I will accept that Boba Fett appears to die, and for all intents and purposes he is no longer involved in the plot during the movies. I'm going to assume these character lines are from the perspective of the movie-goer, in order to spare everyone any more pimple-popping plot revision. I would much prefer it if Fett's line faded into a dotted line like some of the other tetriary characters:

Image

Thank you. That is all.


Props to you for noticing that. I guess Randall isn't a fan of the Expanded Universe, or after making the LotR graph he decided he didn't want another epically convoluted one. We (or, at least, I) welcome those "damn fanboy"s as long as they refrain from starting flamewars.
MShades wrote:
gabrielforsen wrote:Am I the only one who's glad he didn't do the Lotr one based on the books?


Nope, I'm with you. I've read the books, I've got my fantasy lit cred, and I have no intention of picking them up again anytime soon. The movies made me love the story and actually care about characters other than Gollum, so I'll gladly stick to them.


I third this notion. I couldn't get even halfway through the first book (ADD and whatnot), but I enjoyed the movies, so it's good to see a reference I sort-of understand.


I am going to contend that Randall's graph is correct in saying that Boba Fett dies at the Sail Barge. The reason I say this is that when watching the trilogy we believe that this is the case, and because this is a movie narrative chart of the "star wars trilogy" it should show him as dead because it is an isolated system of just the trilogy, and it shouldn't matter what happens to him when they realized he was too popular to kill off.

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Benzene
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Re: "Movie Narrative Charts" Discussion

Postby Benzene » Mon Nov 02, 2009 11:57 pm UTC

usernamesstink wrote:
SpringLoaded12 wrote:[...]

I do hope 12 Angry Men is not as boring as it appears on the graph.
I do hope I don't watch Primer.

enigma343 wrote:HEY

Image

NO

I'm sorry to be the damn fanboy, but Fett does not die! [...]

Image

Thank you. That is all.


[...]



I am going to contend that Randall's graph is correct in saying that Boba Fett dies at the Sail Barge. The reason I say this is that when watching the trilogy we believe that this is the case, and because this is a movie narrative chart of the "star wars trilogy" it should show him as dead because it is an isolated system of just the trilogy, and it shouldn't matter what happens to him when they realized he was too popular to kill off.


He didn't die, he volunteered. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f10ysFRY3UA
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Vaelin
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Re: "Movie Narrative Charts" Discussion

Postby Vaelin » Tue Nov 03, 2009 12:04 am UTC

usernamesstink wrote:I am going to contend that Randall's graph is correct in saying that Boba Fett dies at the Sail Barge. The reason I say this is that when watching the trilogy we believe that this is the case, and because this is a movie narrative chart of the "star wars trilogy" it should show him as dead because it is an isolated system of just the trilogy, and it shouldn't matter what happens to him when they realized he was too popular to kill off.

I agree. I know that in the EU Bobba gets out... but trying to do a chart like that including all the EU info would be a life's work.

You could argue that Vader may have visited the Emperor between Yavin and Hoth... there may be some stories to that effect. Or the books that take place between Yavin and Hoth dealing with the main gang (old books are those).

These are from the perspective of the movies, anything more would open up a HUGE can of worms. Although... a method of showing the force ghosts of Obi Wan, Anakin/Vader, and Yoda may have been in order. :P
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enigma343
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Re: "Movie Narrative Charts" Discussion

Postby enigma343 » Tue Nov 03, 2009 12:10 am UTC

usernamesstink wrote:I am going to contend that Randall's graph is correct in saying that Boba Fett dies at the Sail Barge. The reason I say this is that when watching the trilogy we believe that this is the case, and because this is a movie narrative chart of the "star wars trilogy" it should show him as dead because it is an isolated system of just the trilogy, and it shouldn't matter what happens to him when they realized he was too popular to kill off.


I will grant that Mr. Fett's survival began as a reaction to popular objection (and his character was further retcon'd by the prequels), but Fett has become integral to the plotline of several later events in Star Wars canon, several even on the galactic scale. I can accept that this chart only observes the facts presented in the Trilogy, but as far as I know this is the only factual contradiction between the chart and canon.

Vaelin wrote:...I know that in the EU Bobba gets out... but trying to do a chart like that including all the EU info would be a life's work.

...

These are from the perspective of the movies, anything more would open up a HUGE can of worms....


While there is indeed extra information from EU that might fit in the trilogy, the question of Fett's death is the only thing that is in direct contradiction with the chart. It doesn't have to set the precedent of including the entire EU.

@Benzine: Robot chicken knows how to touch a nerd's nerve.

*EDIT* - Clarity
Last edited by enigma343 on Tue Nov 03, 2009 12:25 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.

Tephlon
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Re: "Movie Narrative Charts" Discussion

Postby Tephlon » Tue Nov 03, 2009 12:23 am UTC

I think that in the 12 Angry Men chart (Awesome, awesome film that I hope they never attempt to do a remake of) the names on the line are the bathroom breaks.

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Re: "Movie Narrative Charts" Discussion

Postby Seraph » Tue Nov 03, 2009 12:34 am UTC

usernamesstink wrote:I am going to contend that Randall's graph is correct in saying that Boba Fett dies at the Sail Barge. The reason I say this is that when watching the trilogy we believe that this is the case, and because this is a movie narrative chart of the "star wars trilogy" it should show him as dead because it is an isolated system of just the trilogy, and it shouldn't matter what happens to him when they realized he was too popular to kill off.

No, "we" do not believe that is the case. Jabba the Hutt/CP3O gives a speech talking about how awful the Sarlacc will be including the line "you will be digested in agony for over a thousand years", and living for a thousand years is basically the total opposite of dieing. So what should happen is that there should be a "Sarlacc" line thats by itself for most the the series, and then has Boba Fett with it for the rest.

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Re: "Movie Narrative Charts" Discussion

Postby pgbridge2000 » Tue Nov 03, 2009 12:41 am UTC

kyle90 wrote:Randall Munroe: The next Charles Joseph Minard :P



YES! I saw this comic and the Minard Diagram of Napoleon's invasion of Russia was actually the first thing that came to my head. To be fair, I was in the middle of a tech writing problem set and we just analyzed the Minard diagram a week ago.

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Re: "Movie Narrative Charts" Discussion

Postby MShades » Tue Nov 03, 2009 12:43 am UTC

Seraph wrote:No, "we" do not believe that is the case. Jabba the Hutt/CP3O gives a speech talking about how awful the Sarlacc will be including the line "you will be digested in agony for over a thousand years", and living for a thousand years is basically the total opposite of dieing. So what should happen is that there should be a "Sarlacc" line thats by itself for most the the series, and then has Boba Fett with it for the rest.


It could also be contended that Jabba didn't know what he was talking about.

Remember, this is the entity who watched Luke walk into his palace - weaponless - kill his rancor - also weaponless - and promise that Jabba would die if he didn't let his friends go even when he was on the edge of execution. Luke was so damn confident that he offered Jabba mercy, and if that's not a sure sign that you should rethink your inevitable victory, I don't know what is.

I would say that Jabba was not all that bright, and his reckoning of the Sarlacc's biological processes was largely hyperbole and should not be trusted.

(Of course I realize there's probably some Star Wars Encyclopedia out there that backs Jabba up and renders my whole point moot. It doesn't make Jabba less of an idiot, though....)
Last edited by MShades on Tue Nov 03, 2009 12:46 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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enigma343
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Re: "Movie Narrative Charts" Discussion

Postby enigma343 » Tue Nov 03, 2009 12:44 am UTC

Seraph wrote:
usernamesstink wrote:I am going to contend that Randall's graph is correct in saying that Boba Fett dies at the Sail Barge. The reason I say this is that when watching the trilogy we believe that this is the case, and because this is a movie narrative chart of the "star wars trilogy" it should show him as dead because it is an isolated system of just the trilogy, and it shouldn't matter what happens to him when they realized he was too popular to kill off.

No, "we" do not believe that is the case. Jabba the Hutt/CP3O gives a speech talking about how awful the Sarlacc will be including the line "you will be digested in agony for over a thousand years", and living for a thousand years is basically the total opposite of dieing. So what should happen is that there should be a "Sarlacc" line thats by itself for most the the series, and then has Boba Fett with it for the rest.


In a book that is considered part of the Star Wars universe, Boba Fett actually escapes the Sarlacc. He is not, in fact, being digested for millenia, according to the Expanded Universe. What we are debating is whether or not this should be included in the chart, because it doesn't happen in the movies (or at least is not seen in the movies, although George Lucas has said that he would have just killed Boba Fett in a more glorius manner if he had known the character would have been that popular.)

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LittleMikey
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Re: "Movie Narrative Charts" Discussion

Postby LittleMikey » Tue Nov 03, 2009 12:51 am UTC

Actually the 12 Angry Men one is a bit wrong. About halfway through the movie jurors #8 and #4 walk over to the water cooler to have a discussion.

I did a play of 12 Angry Men (Renamed to 12 Angry Jurors since we had 3 girls) back in highschool. I played Juror #10, the foreign one, because I was the only guy who could do a good German Accent. Those were the days.

Love the graph tho, I'm amazed how much effort must have gone into this. Randall, go out and get a girlfriend or something :P

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Re: "Movie Narrative Charts" Discussion

Postby Elusieum » Tue Nov 03, 2009 1:50 am UTC

My mind has been blown.

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Re: "Movie Narrative Charts" Discussion

Postby kriel » Tue Nov 03, 2009 1:52 am UTC

You know, Uh.

Technically, it was the _moon_ of Endor, not just Endor.

Thanks.

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Re: "Movie Narrative Charts" Discussion

Postby fleshBasedProcessor » Tue Nov 03, 2009 2:15 am UTC

I saw the primer part of this chart. I got curious. Someone mentioned you could watch it on google video. I did. My entire week is ruined now. *sob*

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Re: "Movie Narrative Charts" Discussion

Postby xylax11 » Tue Nov 03, 2009 2:19 am UTC

For anyone who was interested in primer earlier.....i actually also found a similar xkcd style time line for it....

Here is the embedded Movie and the collection of resources i put together for you guys:

http://www.tanglax.com/content/primer

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Re: "Movie Narrative Charts" Discussion

Postby The Scyphozoa » Tue Nov 03, 2009 2:21 am UTC

Shame on you, Randall, for using the movie plot. Aragorn did not fall off a cliff.

(TTT movie sucked. Other 2 were great.)
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Re: "Movie Narrative Charts" Discussion

Postby Looksy » Tue Nov 03, 2009 2:22 am UTC

Technically, there should be more lines at the end than the beginning of Primer...

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Re: "Movie Narrative Charts" Discussion

Postby Fraxtil » Tue Nov 03, 2009 2:33 am UTC

Upon seeing the Primer timeline I laughed aloud. The only other movie on that poster that I've seen is Jurassic Park. Should I be ashamed?

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Re: "Movie Narrative Charts" Discussion

Postby mtakacs » Tue Nov 03, 2009 3:07 am UTC

Salomon926 wrote:You can watch Primer right now...Just go to http://video.google.com, do a search for "Primer" and the full movie is legitimately available (and has been for quite sometime.) As far as trying to understand it the first time, I'm not sure it's worth it since half the fun is rewatching it with all the prior knowledge of the entire film. If you want a real chart of Primer, someone made a really complicated one here: http://classicalconvert.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/primer_timeline.jpg



I love that chart, tho I first saw it at:

http://neuwanstein.fw.hu/

Which has links to an XML and Viso version, lol

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Re: "Movie Narrative Charts" Discussion

Postby Shokk » Tue Nov 03, 2009 3:19 am UTC

teeheehee, I'll be performing in my High School's production of 12 Angry Men ("12 Angry Jurors" Adjusted for gender neutrality's sake) in a couple of weeks now.
@LittleMikey, just noticed your post as I was typing this one out, Pretty much the exact same situation here. Except I'm fairly certain you mean Juror #11, since that's what I am.

MAN this is some freaky coincidences.
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Re: "Movie Narrative Charts" Discussion

Postby kidkolt » Tue Nov 03, 2009 3:49 am UTC

I don't know how it relates to the movies but: When the ring is destroyed, Sauron isn't "killed", he is permanently weakened, and impermanently dispersed. He reappears (sort of) in the histories as a malignant spirit infesting men in Gondor. hows that for some LotR trivia?

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Re: "Movie Narrative Charts" Discussion

Postby kidkolt » Tue Nov 03, 2009 4:09 am UTC

Also: The dilophosaur, when viewed at this scale, has the awesomest role ever.

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Re: "Movie Narrative Charts" Discussion

Postby neoliminal » Tue Nov 03, 2009 4:33 am UTC

Ok everyone. Remember these are the MOVIES. Not the books. Not the books that explain everything after the movies. These are graphs of the movies.

SO:

1. Boba Fett is dead.
2. Aragorn did fall off a cliff.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0073YYXRC
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Re: "Movie Narrative Charts" Discussion

Postby Guybrush » Tue Nov 03, 2009 4:37 am UTC

Alright, I saw this comic this morning, and was perplexed by Primer. I went to Blockbuster, which as it turns out, is going out of business, so EVERYTHING was for sale, and they had one copy of Primer, and I got it and took it home, and I just got through watching it, and I have to say that I believe this graph, while not accurate, is still a fair representation of what happens in the movie.
Also, Clever Girl made me laugh.
Image

Troger64
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Re: "Movie Narrative Charts" Discussion

Postby Troger64 » Tue Nov 03, 2009 4:58 am UTC

wait, didnt the emperor interact with vader a lot more times before just the very end?

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Re: "Movie Narrative Charts" Discussion

Postby pjx1 » Tue Nov 03, 2009 5:26 am UTC

I believe the Emperors' holographic communication to Darth Vader should have been represented. His Empire Strikes back appearance was an important representation of a deeper more frightening evil, and showed that Darth Vader was not the tall man on the totem pole.

Also stop wanking about Boba Fett. He died in the Sarlac Pitt. Yes I know he was the coolest action figure, and for the most powerful bounty hunter in the universe and the most underwhelming death of any character in the movie.

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Re: "Movie Narrative Charts" Discussion

Postby philip1201 » Tue Nov 03, 2009 6:54 am UTC

More LotR errata:

In this chart, Faramir only finds the Oliphaunt men at the same time he finds Frodo and Sam. But he's been fighting them for the last few months.

Frodo and Gandalf had some alone time before they went to Hobbiton. At the start of the story, they're at least ten miles from the rest. This happens with Gandalf, but not with Frodo. Frodo should move along with Gandalf and join the others later.

Aragorn's start is all messed up. The hobbits meet him in Bree, not on Weathertop.

Also, Merry and Pippin don't meet the Nazgul before Frodo and Sam do. The entire Bree section is missing.

Also, gollum secretly traveled with the Fellowship all the way since Weathertop, and they were only separated in Lotlorien.

And, as seen in the extended edition, Saruman and Wormtongue didn't die until Gandalf, Legolas, Aragorn and Gimli arrived. Legolas was the one who shot Wormtongue. (in the book, Saruman doesn't die at all. But in the movie he's impaled on a metal waterwheel).

Also seen in the extended edition (which also happens in the book): the Ents kill all the remaining Orks after the battle for Helms Deep.


PS: LOL at
Benzene wrote:Luke kills Yoda? Thanks for ruining the movie for me.

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Re: "Movie Narrative Charts" Discussion

Postby tacvek » Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:28 am UTC

LittleMikey wrote:Actually the 12 Angry Men one is a bit wrong. About halfway through the movie jurors #8 and #4 walk over to the water cooler to have a discussion.

I did a play of 12 Angry Men (Renamed to 12 Angry Jurors since we had 3 girls) back in highschool. I played Juror #10, the foreign one, because I was the only guy who could do a good German Accent. Those were the days.

Love the graph tho, I'm amazed how much effort must have gone into this. Randall, go out and get a girlfriend or something :P


Actually Randall did not specify which version of 12 Angry Men he meant. There were two film versions of it.

Tephlon wrote:I think that in the 12 Angry Men chart (Awesome, awesome film that I hope they never attempt to do a remake of) the names on the line are the bathroom breaks.

Which 12 Angry Men are you talking about? The 1957 version, or the 1997 remake? By that timeframe the next remake is due in 2037, so no worries.

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Re: "Movie Narrative Charts" Discussion

Postby Eikinkloster » Tue Nov 03, 2009 8:29 am UTC

guyy wrote:Yay, epic charts!

I'm a bit disappointed that he obviously used the movie version of LOTR, and I wish I knew anything at all about "12 Angry Men" or "Primer" so I could get the joke ones, but otherwise, this is great. (And I can't really blame Randall for the second thing. That's just my cluelessness.)


This hasn't been a problem for some years now. I had never heard of either movie, and about 10 seconds later, I knew all I had to know about them to get the comic. Google + Wikipedia.
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Dlareg
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Re: "Movie Narrative Charts" Discussion

Postby Dlareg » Tue Nov 03, 2009 8:44 am UTC

I'd like to see one made of Dr Who, or Memento or or or ....

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aquilo
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Re: "Movie Narrative Charts" Discussion

Postby aquilo » Tue Nov 03, 2009 9:01 am UTC

Behold! I have made a Back to the Future timeline, despite my complete lack of digital drawing skills.

EDIT: Unfortunately, I also lack the skills needed to upload to the message board, so I had to do an absurd workaround through Facebook that shrunk the image. Sigh. One of these days I'll learn computers.

EDIT2: All better, thanks, Kartoffelkopf.

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Re: "Movie Narrative Charts" Discussion

Postby Kartoffelkopf » Tue Nov 03, 2009 9:13 am UTC


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Re: "Movie Narrative Charts" Discussion

Postby MShades » Tue Nov 03, 2009 10:18 am UTC

I started doing the timeline for The Great Hunt. The first ten chapters are enough to make a grown man weep....
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magesing
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Re: "Movie Narrative Charts" Discussion

Postby magesing » Tue Nov 03, 2009 11:11 am UTC

Reminds me of some of the charts reprinted in Tufte's books:
especially this one:
http://www.edwardtufte.com/tufte/minard

great comic, keep up the good work

monteslu
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Re: "Movie Narrative Charts" Discussion

Postby monteslu » Tue Nov 03, 2009 1:38 pm UTC

philip1201 wrote:And, as seen in the extended edition, Saruman and Wormtongue didn't die until Gandalf, Legolas, Aragorn and Gimli arrived. Legolas was the one who shot Wormtongue. (in the book, Saruman doesn't die at all. But in the movie he's impaled on a metal waterwheel).


Yes Saruman does die in the book, just not at Isengard. His throat is slit by Wormtongue in the shire.


philip1201 wrote:Also seen in the extended edition (which also happens in the book): the Ents kill all the remaining Orks after the battle for Helms Deep.


Technically it was the Huorns that killed the Uruk-hai that were trying to escape back to Isengard. Though the Huorns are very Ent-ish and the Uruk-hai are orcish :)

Imagist
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Re: "Movie Narrative Charts" Discussion

Postby Imagist » Tue Nov 03, 2009 2:38 pm UTC

Firefly? Anyone?
I realize this post will not endear me with most of its readers. If everything agrees with what you say, it's not worth saying.

Catfish_Taylor
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Re: "Movie Narrative Charts" Discussion

Postby Catfish_Taylor » Tue Nov 03, 2009 3:32 pm UTC

Shouldn't the Star Wars chart include a split in Luke's line when his hand is cut off? I'd like to see the addition of a line falling off the bottom of the graph that represents the hand.

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Christo
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Re: "Movie Narrative Charts" Discussion

Postby Christo » Tue Nov 03, 2009 4:31 pm UTC

Wow. I mean wow. At first glance, I thought the joke was in the 12 Angry Men and Primer charts. I didn't realize at first that the Lord of the Rings chart was real. That's a lot of time, friend.

You one of those convention people?
www.cuttingroomcomic.com - a twice a week webcomic about recently released and upcoming movies.

deshara128
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Re: "Movie Narrative Charts" Discussion

Postby deshara128 » Tue Nov 03, 2009 4:43 pm UTC

Hmm, upon seeing that this was a setup for a Primer joke, I watched the movie, and am surprised to say that I got it the first time, and upon looking up the plot analyses to see if I had, discovered the only thing I didn't catch was that the failsafe box had been replaced with a fake one. Good movie.

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Re: "Movie Narrative Charts" Discussion

Postby makc » Tue Nov 03, 2009 5:51 pm UTC

Catfish_Taylor wrote:Shouldn't the Star Wars chart include a split in Luke's line when his hand is cut off? I'd like to see the addition of a line falling off the bottom of the graph that represents the hand.
then the same applies to vader with his legs and arm floating away in lava.


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