0743: "Infrastructures"

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0743: "Infrastructures"

Postby LucasBrown » Fri May 21, 2010 3:50 am UTC

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Alt text: "The heartfelt tune it plays is CC licensed, and you can get it from my seed on JoinDiaspora.net whenever that project gets going."
Last edited by LucasBrown on Wed Jun 09, 2010 11:35 pm UTC, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: "Infrastructures" discussion

Postby eleniy86 » Fri May 21, 2010 3:52 am UTC

Looks more like he's flipping him the bird haha

"that's what you get when you don't listen to reason!!!"
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Re: "Infrastructures" discussion

Postby schismtracer » Fri May 21, 2010 3:53 am UTC

So...you want people to be concerned about nascent infrastructure and feel smugly superior over anyone who disagrees?
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Re: "Infrastructures" discussion

Postby LucasBrown » Fri May 21, 2010 3:54 am UTC

I feel a lot like the bearded guy (is that supposed to be Stallman?), but I'd say that we should be freaking out about Google, Microsoft, and Apple more than about Facebook.
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Re: "Infrastructures" discussion

Postby Shale » Fri May 21, 2010 3:54 am UTC

Nope, the turf wars are still moronic, and nobody held a gun to your head and made you join a glorified MySpace.
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Re: "Infrastructures" discussion

Postby michaelsaunders77 » Fri May 21, 2010 3:57 am UTC

Randal, get out of my head - I used Facebook this morning!!
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Re: "Infrastructures" discussion

Postby 10nitro » Fri May 21, 2010 3:59 am UTC

LucasBrown wrote:I feel a lot like the bearded guy (is that supposed to be Stallman?), but I'd say that we should be freaking out about Google, Microsoft, and Apple more than about Facebook.

Google's okay really, they've joined the free software movement, are open about their shit, and give back to the community.

Also, seriously, .odf is an international standard. Why has it take MS this long to support it? And, OpenOffice.org works fine (though, I still recommend the go-oo.org build).

Also, we get trolled way more than we troll others.
When we get trolled:
"Fucking Linux hippie, use real software. You just use that shit to be different."
When we "troll":
"help, I have X computer problem."
"[Okay|I'm busy], but you wouldn't have that problem if you used X free software that I recommended instead."
"I use software that works, give the free software thing a rest already!"
"You're the one who has computer problems"

At least in my experience.
Last edited by 10nitro on Fri May 21, 2010 4:06 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Infrastructures" discussion

Postby Math_Mage » Fri May 21, 2010 4:01 am UTC

There has to be a better way to introduce the problem than receiving an essay in .doc format.
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Re: "Infrastructures" discussion

Postby DarwinSurvivor » Fri May 21, 2010 4:03 am UTC

Math_Mage wrote:There has to be a better way to introduce the problem than receiving an essay in .doc format.


Yeah, .docx (god I hate that format!)

Side note, shouldn't the alt-text be joindiaspora.com (not .net)?
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Re: "Infrastructures" discussion

Postby delusion » Fri May 21, 2010 4:04 am UTC

You know, not to be pedantic, but there were plenty of good reasons to side with the open source zealots about .doc files other than the presence of open source alternatives.

When I was in the Interest Program for Ulitima Online (for those of you familiar with it, the Seers program, for those of you not, think volunteer plot helpers for a game fallen far, far off the rails), they'd send out plot summaries in .doc format. I was That Guy, you know, The Guy Who Fought .Doc.

But not because I'm a beardy open source fundamentalist. The simple fact was that none of these documents had (or needed) any formatting which .rtf didn't preserve. But one thing .rtf did not preserve was macro viruses.

A bit after I left the game for good, they distributed some .doc files on the CD of the expansion. Lo and behold, there was a fantastic Word macro virus in one of them. Had I been a smaller person, I would have popped into IRC and said "I told you so". But I settled for thinking it to myself instead.

Open source zealots are often right, and sometimes they're just off in left field. Form alliances with them when it's appropriate, and pat them on the head when it's not (ogg vorbis as an end-user music format people, I'm looking squarely at you here).
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Re: "Infrastructures" discussion

Postby glasnt » Fri May 21, 2010 4:05 am UTC

The "our" in the last frame is all mangled. Needs re-writing.

Other than that...

HI JOEE
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Re: "Infrastructures" discussion

Postby Zylon » Fri May 21, 2010 4:10 am UTC

Stick Gordon Freeman is indifferent to your suffering.
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Re: "Infrastructures" discussion

Postby 10nitro » Fri May 21, 2010 4:11 am UTC

delusion wrote:Open source zealots are often right, and sometimes they're just off in left field. Form alliances with them when it's appropriate, and pat them on the head when it's not (ogg vorbis as an end-user music format people, I'm looking squarely at you here).

What's wrong with ogg, as long as you have a device that supports it? I will admit that device support at the moment is low, but growing. Sure, if you have an MP3 player, get MP3s instead, but if your device supports ogg, which a growing number do, why not use it?
Also, what are your feelings on ogg theora?
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Re: "Infrastructures" discussion

Postby delusion » Fri May 21, 2010 4:19 am UTC

10nitro wrote:
delusion wrote:Open source zealots are often right, and sometimes they're just off in left field. Form alliances with them when it's appropriate, and pat them on the head when it's not (ogg vorbis as an end-user music format people, I'm looking squarely at you here).

What's wrong with ogg, as long as you have a device that supports it? I will admit that device support at the moment is low, but growing. Sure, if you have an MP3 player, get MP3s instead, but if your device supports ogg, which a growing number do, why not use it?
Also, what are your feelings on ogg theora?
I don't have strong feelings about ogg theora, I don't consider myself adequately versed in the pros and cons of video codecs and container formats to have an opinion; when it comes to those, I'm merely an end-user.

The problem with ogg vorbis (at say, q6-q8) is that this presumption that it is better than mp3 (at LAME v0) ignores a few facts: the space savings isn't significant enough to be worth the bother (and non-existent at q7.5-8 vs v0), the fact that mp3 is ubiquitous and everyone understands it is a benefit in and of itself, and both ogg and mp3 are more than capable of achieving transparency to source at a reasonable bitrate and file size. If each person was an island, our codec choices wouldn't matter. But in the real world, not having to be That Guy who has to pontificate about the benefits of ogg vorbis and how everyone should use it when I have a friend that wants some music but it fails on his car stereo which plays mp3 just fine is reward enough.

I'm not sure where you're getting this idea that ogg vorbis support is increasing in end-user players, but I see that opinion voiced often as if it is a self-evident truism. I'm not saying it's wrong, I'm just saying it's always stated but never demonstrated.

Ogg vorbis decoders are often more cpu (and therefore battery) intensive in portable devices, but this complaint I consider unfair to set at vorbis's feet, as mp3's edge in this regard is due to a longer history and a wider array of programmatic solutions available, and not the fault of vorbis itself, as far as I am aware.
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Re: "Infrastructures" discussion

Postby Omegaton » Fri May 21, 2010 4:19 am UTC

michaelsaunders77 wrote:Randal, get out of my head - I used Facebook this morning!!

Psssh, what? I'm on Facebook right NOW.
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Re: "Infrastructures" discussion

Postby GreatS » Fri May 21, 2010 4:20 am UTC

michaelsaunders77 wrote:Randal, get out of my head - I used Facebook this morning!!

If already this gives you a "Randal, get out of my head"-moment, than something is definitely wrong with you (n.o. XD) :D

Either way, I have various people tell me off already that I was only complaining about the state of the technical infrastructure to feel better about myself, so this comic might come in handy at some point (though I fear most wouldn't even get it if they see this XD :cry: :D )
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Re: "Infrastructures" discussion

Postby cjmcjmcjmcjm » Fri May 21, 2010 4:32 am UTC

Omegaton wrote:
michaelsaunders77 wrote:Randal, get out of my head - I used Facebook this morning!!

Psssh, what? I'm on Facebook right NOW.

Same here.
delusion wrote:in the real world, not having to be That Guy who has to pontificate about the benefits of ogg vorbis and how everyone should use it when I have a friend that wants some music but it fails on his car stereo which plays mp3 just fine is reward enough.

I download everything in FLAC, if possible. I've hacked iTunes/QuickTime to work with it (I'm a crazy mac user), and when my friends want a file, I'll give it to them and leave them to discover that it is on FLAC or OGG or 5.1 mp3. When they complain, I tell 'em it was free. It stopped requests for copies of my rather large and eclectic iTunes library. I've also will send files in an esoteric format, such as .odf or a large Word doc zipped into a .sit when I'm angry.

Also, thanks 10nitro for telling me about Go-oo. Now I really regret spending $130 on Office:mac 2k8. IT'S NOT EVEN 100% FEATURE-COMPATIBLE WITH OFFICE 2007, I COULD HAVE USED THAT MONEY TO BUY THE 500GB HARD DRIVE
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Re: "Infrastructures" discussion

Postby Snowdream » Fri May 21, 2010 4:38 am UTC

I used .rtf out of necessity.

My High School had nothing but Macs, I'd go home work on my PC, and then have to turn my assignments back to my teacher who used a (ta da) Mac.

.rtf was a survival tool.

Now that College is done with (We used Doc and then DocX towards the end), and I am the teacher (HA HA HA! POWER!) I make sure all my students use .rtf for the same reasons; it's convenient and avoids so many problems.
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Re: "Infrastructures" discussion

Postby KBF » Fri May 21, 2010 4:39 am UTC

I think I 'get' the comic, for everything up to the part where .doc is related to Facebook. Someone explain, please? Yeah, I might be ignorant and naive, we can skip that part.
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Re: "Infrastructures" discussion

Postby joee » Fri May 21, 2010 4:41 am UTC

I want an open source violin

I wish I knew enough to fix my graphics problems under Ubuntu. or gutsy enough to try another distro

Also HI GLASNT
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Re: "Infrastructures" discussion

Postby Steve the Pocket » Fri May 21, 2010 4:44 am UTC

If only Facebook had used OpenOffice instead of Microsoft Office, they wouldn't be evil now!

...Wait. No, I don't get it actually.
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Re: "Infrastructures" discussion

Postby eviloatmeal » Fri May 21, 2010 4:52 am UTC

Cheese fantastically flambéed today, Mr. Munroe! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Shale wrote:Nope, the turf wars are still moronic, and nobody held a gun to your head and made you join a MySpace clone.

FIX'D

KBF wrote:I think I 'get' the comic, for everything up to the part where .doc is related to Facebook. Someone explain, please? Yeah, I might be ignorant and naive, we can skip that part.

There's a few other comments like this, I'll just jot down my interpretation for ya'll: The point is not Microsoft Office, the point is the infrastructure. FOSS-guy is concerned that if too many people get complacent in a proprietary shell (be it Word, Facebook, or any other type of software to which the source code and ultimately all control is held by a single entity, bad things will happen in the future. He is then proven right a few years later when the .doc dude comes back complaining that bad things happened after everyone put their social lives into what is essentially a gigantic database owned by a company. IMHO the potential consequences are fairly self explanatory, put your email into the world's largest mailing list and you'll end up with spam, put all your daily habits into the world's largest database and you'll end up with, in the best case, creepily specific advertising everywhere you browse, at worst... well shit, man, they know where you live!

/wafflewafflemuch?
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Re: "Infrastructures" discussion

Postby BigMcStrongmuscle » Fri May 21, 2010 5:09 am UTC

I think I 'get' the comic, for everything up to the part where .doc is related to Facebook. Someone explain, please? Yeah, I might be ignorant and naive, we can skip that part.


It basically translates to:

2003:
BEARDY MCSTICKGUY: You should really switch to OpenOffice. Microsoft refuses to work with open international standards, their software is ridden with bugs and exploits, and they are actively inimical to user control and privacy.
JIMMY NOTNERDLY: Bite me, no one cares. Loser.

2010:
JIMMY NOTNERDLY: Oh me yarm!!! You should quit Facebook!!! Facebook refuses to work with open international standards, their software is ridden with bugs and exploits, and they are actively inimical to user control and privacy!
BEARDY MCSTICKGUY: Man, do I hate you, Captain Seven-Years-Late-To-The-Party.
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Re: "Infrastructures" discussion

Postby Gjarble » Fri May 21, 2010 5:17 am UTC

BigMcStrongmuscle wrote:
I think I 'get' the comic, for everything up to the part where .doc is related to Facebook. Someone explain, please? Yeah, I might be ignorant and naive, we can skip that part.


It basically translates to:

2003:
BEARDY MCSTICKGUY: You should really switch to OpenOffice. Microsoft refuses to work with open international standards, their software is ridden with bugs and exploits, and they are actively inimical to user control and privacy.
JIMMY NOTNERDLY: Bite me, no one cares. Loser.

2010:
JIMMY NOTNERDLY: Gee Willikers!!! You should quit Facebook!!! Facebook refuses to work with open international standards, their software is ridden with bugs and exploits, and they are actively inimical to user control and privacy!
BEARDY MCSTICKGUY: Man, do I hate you, Captain Seven-Years-Late-To-The-Party.


The part I don't understand is the "and privacy" part for the 2003 conversation. Microsoft can't really do anything with all their power except make loads of money. It's not like they're harvesting all the .docs ever produced. The difference between Word and Facebook is that Facebook is part of a networked infrastructure. (Also, to a lesser extent, what's up with the "open international standards" part of the 2010 conversation? I'm not an expert on the inner workings of Facebook, but exactly what standard does Facebook refuse to comply with?)
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Re: "Infrastructures" discussion

Postby delusion » Fri May 21, 2010 5:27 am UTC

cjmcjmcjmcjm wrote:I download everything in FLAC, if possible. I've hacked iTunes/QuickTime to work with it (I'm a crazy mac user), and when my friends want a file, I'll give it to them and leave them to discover that it is on FLAC or OGG or 5.1 mp3. When they complain, I tell 'em it was free. It stopped requests for copies of my rather large and eclectic iTunes library. I've also will send files in an esoteric format, such as .odf or a large Word doc zipped into a .sit when I'm angry.


No offense, but I don't like to take out my passive aggressive format diatribes out on my friends. Did I mention that these were friends and not people I have a giant ego-score to settle with?

I'm not suggesting you should volunteer to whore yourself out to download whatever tedious top 40 album is all the rage this week, because that's annoying and I've had to nip that idea in the bud a few times myself. But when I'm sharing music with friends (who return the favor), I don't have the desire to make things difficult on them for its own sake.

Either you're joking, or you're a terrible person.
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Re: "Infrastructures" discussion

Postby BigMcStrongmuscle » Fri May 21, 2010 5:29 am UTC

RE: 2003

One of the things that always drove me nuts about Microsoft Word documents when they first started to come around,is that there isn't really a great way to see and edit all the invisible tags inside them. Control of your data and how you present it is a part of privacy. It always made me uncomfortable that Word inserts so much metadata into your files without letting you know what it was. Word processors off the cloud don't have a lot of room to breach privacy, but they sure tried. It is a weaker connection than the other two, though.

RE: 2010

The open standards issue with Facebook is less that they won't use one and more that they won't be one. The Facebook Platform is closed-off and proprietary, and Facebook itself is the only place you can use it. It'd be hella awesome for other social networks to be able to use it and cross-communicate, but Facebook doesn't want that because it's got a stranglehold on mainstream social networking right now. If I understand correctly, that is one of the things that the Diaspora project wants to use to one-up them. That should be pretty hot stuff.
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Re: "Infrastructures" discussion

Postby monkeyman8 » Fri May 21, 2010 5:36 am UTC

It's official, I'm the only person on the planet without a facebook. Fuck it, not like I'm gonna start with that shit now. Still, I'd love one of those violins.
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Re: "Infrastructures" discussion

Postby glasnt » Fri May 21, 2010 5:42 am UTC

joee wrote:I want an open source violin

I wish I knew enough to fix my graphics problems under Ubuntu. or gutsy enough to try another distro

Also HI GLASNT



I FIX IT

http://code.google.com/p/gma500/wiki/InstallScript

Run the line starting with WGET. A few 'enter admin password' calls, and it fixes things ^_^

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Re: "Infrastructures" discussion

Postby BrianX » Fri May 21, 2010 5:48 am UTC

As a Mac user (and recent acquirer of an iPod touch), I have to say it's interesting seeing Apple play both sides of the fence on this one. Closed platform/open data formats... veddy eenterestink. The arguments on both sides are pretty solid and I think it comes down to whatever tradeoffs the (presumably informed) consumer is willing to make. (Although honestly, hackery only increases the value of the original product over the long run. Just ask anyone who's ever played games in math class on their TI-83.)

Facebook, however, is informed consent fail. I can design iPhone apps, and if Apple won't take them, I can put them up in a Cydia repository for people willing to forego their warranty for jailbreak freedom. Facebook is a black box. It's clear the consumer at any given time does not know what they're up to, and right now they're staring down the barrel of a shotgun held by some very, very angry users.
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Re: "Infrastructures" discussion

Postby pbnjstowell » Fri May 21, 2010 5:55 am UTC

monkeyman8 wrote:It's official, I'm the only person on the planet without a facebook.


I don't have a facebook either.
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Re: "Infrastructures" discussion

Postby StClair » Fri May 21, 2010 5:59 am UTC

I'd just like to note that it is entirely possible for Bearded Stick Guy to be right about this and still be a smugly superior tool who lives for stupid nerd turf wars.
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Re: "Infrastructures" discussion

Postby SandoverLightChanger28 » Fri May 21, 2010 5:59 am UTC

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Re: "Infrastructures" discussion

Postby albatross.frolicker » Fri May 21, 2010 6:24 am UTC

I just want to say that the web address for the diaspora project is wrong, it should be joindiaspora.com. Um, somebody tell Randall.
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Re: "Infrastructures" discussion

Postby achilleas.k » Fri May 21, 2010 6:25 am UTC

I'm always bitching about how wrong it is to send ANYTHING in .doc format. Especially some Uni office workers who send announcements out. It's just wrong to be reading something that's only meant for reading in the bloody editor.

I guess this is another subject. I have no problem if you want to write in Word, or OpenOffice, or LaTeX, but just don't send out announcements and reports in .doc! odf is just as bad in this case.
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Re: "Infrastructures" discussion

Postby Eternal Density » Fri May 21, 2010 6:43 am UTC

Some files that I deal with are strictly to be kept in .rtf at all times. These being application version release notes.

I don't really care about FailBook or violins.
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Re: "Infrastructures" discussion

Postby Hazman » Fri May 21, 2010 6:46 am UTC

They make us submit all our assignments in pdf where I'm studying, which is OK. They send all notices and information as pdf attachments to emails, which is frigging ridiculous.
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Re: "Infrastructures" discussion

Postby Pfhorrest » Fri May 21, 2010 6:55 am UTC

pbnjstowell wrote:
monkeyman8 wrote:It's official, I'm the only person on the planet without a facebook.

I don't have a facebook either.

Me three. I never saw the point in social networking. Anything I want to share about myself with the world I can put on my own web site that I built myself and host on a server I control, like I've done for the past 15ish years; and there are dedicated messaging protocols for all the communications crap that Kids These Days use social networks for. (I still can't believe I know high-schoolers who have email address that they *only* use for registration on forums/etc; all other messaging, besides SMS on their phones, is via MyBook/FaceSpace/etc).

And I know this is total irony posting this on a phpBB system, but I still think web forums never should have existed. UseNet was so much better.

Also: GET OFF MY LAWN.
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Re: "Infrastructures" discussion

Postby Kalos » Fri May 21, 2010 7:14 am UTC

Okay, so social networking sites that care nothing about your privacy continuing to care nothing about your privacy is bad, yes. But making a big deal out of a .doc file, when your precious OpenOffice can open the damn thing, and any halfway decent e-mail client will let you automatically preview that shit still makes you a douche bag who's just trying to be different and probably autistic or something. Also, OpenOffice is trash. The word processor is tolerable, their attempt at Excel is laughably pathetic though.
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Re: "Infrastructures" discussion

Postby achilleas.k » Fri May 21, 2010 7:41 am UTC

Hazman wrote:They send all notices and information as pdf attachments to emails, which is frigging ridiculous.

No it's not
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Re: "Infrastructures" discussion

Postby BigMcStrongmuscle » Fri May 21, 2010 7:43 am UTC

Okay, so social networking sites that care nothing about your privacy continuing to care nothing about your privacy is bad, yes. But making a big deal out of a .doc file, when your precious OpenOffice can open the damn thing, and any halfway decent e-mail client will let you automatically preview that shit still makes you a douche bag who's just trying to be different and probably autistic or something. Also, OpenOffice is trash. The word processor is tolerable, their attempt at Excel is laughably pathetic though.


Really? You hate Calc that much? What features are missing? I've been using it for years and never noticed any major differences from Excel, except that most of the spreadsheet functions use a slightly different format. What are the features you are missing? I would have expected more complaints about the slideshow program or the weird-ass margin sizes on the word processor's default templates.

Note: The above is not actually obnoxious Socratic posturing. I'm genuinely curious.
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