0754: "Dependencies"

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kps
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Re: "Dependencies" discussion(#754)

Postby kps » Wed Jun 16, 2010 12:05 pm UTC

When I was in school (and lucky to be living in a shoebox in the middle of the road) there was no such thing as Intermediate Compiler Design. There was Beginner's Compiler Design (parsing and a bit of stack-like code generation) and Expert Compiler Design (anything else). Now that there's memory to hold entire programs and millions of graphs, and free libraries to manage them for you — not to mention an open-source compiler project that isn't intentionally obfuscated — a vast range of things become accessible to the advanced hobbyist.

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Re: "Dependencies" discussion(#754)

Postby keithc » Wed Jun 16, 2010 12:43 pm UTC

Eternal Density wrote:So it was a case of bad software engineering and stupid course structure choices, leading to inconvenience for software engineering students.

But did that experience itself teach you anything? With the amount of user-hostile software out there, such learning may well be more useful than what you were supposed to learn.

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Re: "Dependencies" discussion(#754)

Postby cparker15 » Wed Jun 16, 2010 1:07 pm UTC

ThemePark wrote:Yo dawg, I heard you like dependency, so I put a dependency class in your dependency class, so you can depend while you depend.

Old meme is old.

...D'oh!
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Re: "Dependencies" discussion(#754)

Postby marsman57 » Wed Jun 16, 2010 1:21 pm UTC

I am definitely the target audience for this joke (CS degree holder), but even I thought it was boring and uninspired. The glibc 2.5 thing may have given me a chuckle if I knew anything about glibc versions, but really, this was just awful all around.

Also, please stop caring about who gets the first comic thread. That is like the least important thing ever.

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Re: "Dependencies" discussion(#754)

Postby glasnt » Wed Jun 16, 2010 1:27 pm UTC

My new avatar is better than this comic.

This comic doesn't have John Simms in it.

Andrusi
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Re: "Dependencies" discussion(#754)

Postby Andrusi » Wed Jun 16, 2010 1:50 pm UTC

COM 205: Getting a Job
Prereq: SOC 210

SOC 210: Getting Experience
Prereq: COM 205
Not named Dennis Miller.

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Re: "Dependencies" discussion(#754)

Postby jozwa » Wed Jun 16, 2010 2:37 pm UTC

StClair wrote:
xms wrote:I think this one is a little too obvious, basically "dependency class depends on dependency class". Would've been better if it was a little less direct, not sure how that could've been done however.

If you're a CS major, maybe. Went completely over my head for a half-minute.

Same here, but maybe I'm just stupid. At first I thought 'prereqs' was some fancy word I shouldn't even begin to try to understand.

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Re: "Dependencies" discussion(#754)

Postby YttriumOx » Wed Jun 16, 2010 3:16 pm UTC

This doesn't have and recursion, but does a have a certain similarity. Some time in the late 80s or early 90s, there was a job posting which required the applicant have 20 years experience in Unix/C programming. Depending on the exact date of the posting, there were either no qualified applicants anywhere or just a handful (like a dozen or so and three of those would have had last names of Thompson, Kernighan, and Ritchie).

At a place I used to work, the HR department would "as standard" insist on 5 years experience with anything. Around 2003 or so, we were looking for someone with .NET Framework experience and of course the HR department put the job ad out asking for 5 years of experience with it. Oddly, we did get quite a lot of applicants, but only one that insisted he definitely met all the requirements (we didn't hire him of course!)
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Re: "Dependencies" discussion(#754)

Postby Kepler82 » Wed Jun 16, 2010 4:24 pm UTC

LordBritish wrote:Can anybody explain the "James Bond eats a sandwich" joke to me please?


There is no point. you're not supposed to get it. :)

Technical Ben
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Re: "Dependencies" discussion(#754)

Postby Technical Ben » Wed Jun 16, 2010 4:31 pm UTC

Great comic Randall. I don't know much about programming, but even I laughed at the word play.
The only computer courses I've seen around here, are the ones that involve learning where the "on" button is...

[edit]
Andrusi wrote:COM 205: Getting a Job
Prereq: SOC 210

SOC 210: Getting Experience
Prereq: COM 205


That sums up my entire attempt at being a Graphic Designer or even something basic as a sign maker or print producer. Every business gave me this reply. As I'm not willing to work for free, I got a normal job and just to the art as a hobby now. I'm still happy, bills paid. Their loss not mine. :P
Last edited by Technical Ben on Wed Jun 16, 2010 4:38 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Dependencies" discussion(#754)

Postby typo » Wed Jun 16, 2010 4:34 pm UTC

mojibake wrote:
The1exile wrote:
PaulC1956 wrote:In Gödel, Escher, Bach, the index entry for "chunked versions of this book" cites the page range of the index.

Not strictly related, but in an old maths revision book I had the index entries for "lies" and "damned lies" pointed to the statistics section.

While on the topic, the good ol' SICP indexes "magician" as "See numerical analyst".

The index (Appendix I) of Knuth's The TeXbook (one of my favourite books) ends with two quotes, one about the importance of indexes from a 1926 book by Highton on proofreading and the other describing the index of Prof. Schickele's biography of P.D.Q. Bach. Both authors are referenced in the index, of course.

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Introbulus
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Re: "Dependencies" discussion(#754)

Postby Introbulus » Wed Jun 16, 2010 5:22 pm UTC

It took me a few seconds to get the joke in this comic.

When I did, it was 100% worth it. :mrgreen:
If you can read this, you are wasting your time.

mszegedy
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Re: "Dependencies" discussion(#754)

Postby mszegedy » Wed Jun 16, 2010 7:20 pm UTC

It was a typo.

Also: Too many acronyms/abbreviations!

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Karilyn
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Re: "Dependencies" discussion(#754)

Postby Karilyn » Wed Jun 16, 2010 7:47 pm UTC

This reminds me of a few of my classes that I've taken that seemed so mind boggling confusing it felt impossible to learn without prior knowledge of the material.

It's one thing to regurgitate content. It's another to understand and apply.
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Re: "Dependencies" discussion(#754)

Postby ryanjsull » Wed Jun 16, 2010 7:57 pm UTC

I seemed to think that this comic was intended to relate to the process of bootstrapping a toolchain. For those who don't know, gnu c compiler (like many compilers) is written in c, which leads to a chicken vs egg paradox. Basically, you need a c compiler to compile a c compiler. There were a few people who didn't get this comic, and nobody brought this up yet so I felt like I had to share.

makaveli
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Re: "Dependencies" discussion(#754)

Postby makaveli » Wed Jun 16, 2010 8:43 pm UTC

I heard a course on linear Algebra required everyone to swallow a red pill...

Naleh
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Re: "Dependencies" discussion(#754)

Postby Naleh » Wed Jun 16, 2010 9:16 pm UTC

RebeccaRGB wrote:* Cal Poly is anything but logical. Buildings 1 and 65 are right next to each other, and buildings 2 and 3 are on the other side of campus. Building 14 (the computer science building) is between 20 and 21. Buildings 10 and 22 are connected. In building 10, the room numbers go something like 202, 203, 204, 203, 205. There is an optional CSC 106 class that people can take before CSC 101. I've had comp sci classes in the agriculture building, math classes in the welding and manufacturing building, English classes in the food processing building, and biology classes in the performing arts center. It made no sense and I loved it.

At my university there seem to be very few courses that begin at 101. CS does, but stage I Maths goes 102 -> 108 -> 150 -> 153, while Maths 190 is a standalone quasi-philosophy class. Physics doesn't even have an order; it's a set of simultaneous options numbered by tens (classical 120, materials 130, digital 140, quantum 150, biophysics 160...)

As for the buildings, I'm sure their numbering made sense to someone once, but they don't anymore. While the room numbering never made sense at all. If they duplicated a number, noone will ever know.

Luckily, most of my classes are in the science centre, but I do feel like a traitor twice a week when I have to sneak into the arts buildings for a maths class...

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Switch31
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Re: "Dependencies" discussion(#754)

Postby Switch31 » Wed Jun 16, 2010 10:03 pm UTC

Not bad, but it took me some time to find the joke. I think this would be funnier if I could experience it as a CS major.
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Cathy
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Re: "Dependencies" discussion(#754)

Postby Cathy » Wed Jun 16, 2010 10:05 pm UTC

Andrusi wrote:COM 205: Getting a Job
Prereq: SOC 210

SOC 210: Getting Experience
Prereq: COM 205


Gah, every place I've applied has told me this >.>
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michaelsaunders77
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Re: "Dependencies" discussion(#754)

Postby michaelsaunders77 » Wed Jun 16, 2010 10:58 pm UTC

xms wrote:I think this one is a little too obvious, basically "dependency class depends on dependency class". Would've been better if it was a little less direct, not sure how that could've been done however.

My thoughts exactly. If it was a bit more subtle it would have gone from good to amazing.

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Re: "Dependencies" discussion(#754)

Postby Eternal Density » Thu Jun 17, 2010 1:16 am UTC

keithc wrote:
Eternal Density wrote:So it was a case of bad software engineering and stupid course structure choices, leading to inconvenience for software engineering students.

But did that experience itself teach you anything? With the amount of user-hostile software out there, such learning may well be more useful than what you were supposed to learn.
Yes.

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At my workplace we use a matrix management system.
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Re: "Dependencies" discussion(#754)

Postby Dinoguy1000 » Thu Jun 17, 2010 1:28 am UTC

typo wrote:
mojibake wrote:
The1exile wrote:
PaulC1956 wrote:In Gödel, Escher, Bach, the index entry for "chunked versions of this book" cites the page range of the index.

Not strictly related, but in an old maths revision book I had the index entries for "lies" and "damned lies" pointed to the statistics section.

While on the topic, the good ol' SICP indexes "magician" as "See numerical analyst".

The index (Appendix I) of Knuth's The TeXbook (one of my favourite books) ends with two quotes, one about the importance of indexes from a 1926 book by Highton on proofreading and the other describing the index of Prof. Schickele's biography of P.D.Q. Bach. Both authors are referenced in the index, of course.


Banksy wrote:Hah!
Also reminds me of a programming textbook a friend of mine had, where in the glossary it had these gems:
"Infinite loop: A loop that does not terminate. See loop, infinite"
"Loop, infinite: A loop that does not terminate. See Infinite loop"


Basically the entire index of Lemony Snicket: The Unauthorized Autobiography is an exercise in dependencies - I don't think there's any infinite loops, but cross-references run up to a dozen deep, and there are some downright inane entries. I wasted a week and more than a dozen sheets of paper tracing the whole thing a couple of years ago, and I still have the resulting list somewhere... :)
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soren121
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Re: "Dependencies" discussion(#754)

Postby soren121 » Thu Jun 17, 2010 2:32 am UTC

Welcome to RPM dependency hell in real-life! :twisted:

...or dependency heaven. Your choice. Either way, good luck finding the reset button.
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arbivark
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Re: "Dependencies" discussion(#754)

Postby arbivark » Thu Jun 17, 2010 2:41 am UTC

during my 5 years as a philosophy major i ran into this now and then.
what you do is just show up to every class. very few professors have the <whatever>
to kick you out. i did get kicked out of one class, i think it was legal research methods.
ran into that prof later as my prosecutor in a drug case, which i beat.

when i was about 12 i read a book with a glossary. i remember one pair of entries:
lariot: lasso.
lasso: lariot.
didn't read geb till years later.

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sugarhyped
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Re: "Dependencies" discussion(#754)

Postby sugarhyped » Thu Jun 17, 2010 4:14 am UTC

I am pretty sure at my school you are allowed to take classes concurrently so this shouldn't be a problem.
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snowyowl
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Re: "Dependencies" discussion(#754)

Postby snowyowl » Thu Jun 17, 2010 1:27 pm UTC

Andrusi wrote:COM 205: Getting a Job
Prereq: SOC 210

SOC 210: Getting Experience
Prereq: COM 205

Andrusi, get out of my head.

sugarhyped wrote:I am pretty sure at my school you are allowed to take classes concurrently so this shouldn't be a problem.

Of course it's a problem. You can't take COM 205 unless you're taking SOC 210 at the same time, and obviously you're not taking SOC 210 because you can't take COM 205. FOr exactly the same reason, you can take COM 205.
Circular argument is circular. I feel justified in invoking that meme.
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Doodle77
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Re: "Dependencies" discussion(#754)

Postby Doodle77 » Thu Jun 17, 2010 3:01 pm UTC

As far as the alt text, it would've been more appropriate to mention glib instead of glibc. glib depends on pkg-config. pkg-config depends on glib.

qzex
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Re: "Dependencies" discussion(#754)

Postby qzex » Thu Jun 17, 2010 6:45 pm UTC

It was the third time I read this before I realized where the obvious joke was. I was reading the description too hard and trying to find the joke there. :\

tagno25
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Re: "Dependencies" discussion(#754)

Postby tagno25 » Thu Jun 17, 2010 6:50 pm UTC

snowyowl wrote:
sugarhyped wrote:I am pretty sure at my school you are allowed to take classes concurrently so this shouldn't be a problem.

Of course it's a problem. You can't take COM 205 unless you're taking SOC 210 at the same time, and obviously you're not taking SOC 210 because you can't take COM 205. FOr exactly the same reason, you can take COM 205.
Circular argument is circular. I feel justified in invoking that meme.

Why not? You add one to your "schedule" and it says that the other one is needed, you add the second one and then are able to take both.

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TimeSpaceMage
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Re: "Dependencies" discussion(#754)

Postby TimeSpaceMage » Fri Jun 18, 2010 4:29 am UTC

I had a good laugh at this one. Compilers was one of the harder classes I took for my CS degree.

Naleh wrote:Luckily, most of my classes are in the science centre, but I do feel like a traitor twice a week when I have to sneak into the arts buildings for a maths class...


Oh yeah, the art vs. science divide! Hahaha, I remember that... so many people in my uni's Anime Club who were graphics or philosophy majors and sucked at math/science.

smartboyathome
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Re: "Dependencies" discussion(#754)

Postby smartboyathome » Fri Jun 18, 2010 12:47 pm UTC

hintss wrote:any examples of this in an actual linux repository?

Well, this isn't specific to any Linux repository, but glibc does require glibc (or an equivelant compiler) to compile, make requires make in order to make it (lol), and binutils requires binutils in order to build. If that isn't recursive, I don't know what is. ;)

anrieff
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Re: "Dependencies" discussion(#754)

Postby anrieff » Fri Jun 18, 2010 5:30 pm UTC

In addition to the things mentioned by smartboyathome: also, *ANY* self-respecting programming language has a reference compiler written in the same language. You need C to compile GCC, a C compiler, and you need Free Pascal to compile Free Pascal. Same goes for Haskell, Lisp, Python, etc..

People have gone great lengths, such as to write a Whitespace interpreter in Whitespace.

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Re: "Dependencies" discussion(#754)

Postby tastelikecoke » Sat Jun 19, 2010 9:55 am UTC

The joke was already spoilt when it got served to me. It gave me a huge lolwut face.

You can probably take the class concurrently to qualify for the course.

Imposter
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Re: "Dependencies" discussion(#754)

Postby Imposter » Sat Jun 19, 2010 9:22 pm UTC

Honestly! Has no-one noticed the glaring typo in the alt-text?

Alt text: "The prereqs for CPSC 357, the class on package management, are CPCS 432, CPSC 357, and glibc2.5 or later."

Where have all the pedants gone? (Long time passing...)

JamusPsi
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Re: "Dependencies" discussion(#754)

Postby JamusPsi » Mon Jun 21, 2010 3:17 am UTC

Okay, maybe I'm imagining something here, but I don't think the joke is about the recursion necessarily-- and maybe that's why I find it hilarious.

Resolving a dependency in a compiler isn't just.. "Is it there?" The class in the joke resolves!

Code: Select all

class A {
  A child;
  string ChildName() {
    return child.Name;
  }
  B partner;

  string Name;
}
class B {
  A partner;
}


The compiler can't be sure when it reaches ChildName() that A's have a name member. And B isn't defined yet. This problem is historically resolved by using header files with class prototypes but in many modern languages that's not the case.

Maybe that WASN'T the joke.. but I thought it was hilarious.

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Re: "Dependencies" discussion(#754)

Postby scarletmanuka » Tue Jun 22, 2010 9:16 am UTC

deadline wrote:Can anyone make out what the cut-off course listing at the bottom of the image reads?

I'm pretty sure it's "Advanced Compiler Design".

I agree, it does appear that Phil 101 is a prerequisite; this makes me wonder just how advanced the compiler will be...

silleknarf
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Re: 0754: "Dependencies"

Postby silleknarf » Sun Jun 05, 2011 7:16 pm UTC

Haha, some of my courses feel a bit like that!


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