0774: "Atheists"

[soren121]

Alt-text: 'But you're using that same tactic to try to feel superior to me, too!' 'Sorry, that accusation expires after one use per conversation.'

Let the flame war begin.

[Orca]

Curse you for being first slightly and forcing me to admit defeat. One day!!!!!!!!!!

[Freiberg]

I think Randall has found a way to incite a (if not multiple) flame wars within this very thread, without actually saying anything provocative. Then again, if the rest of the people posting in this thread are mindful of this, it could still theoretically be averted...

[KestralTweet]

Strange, xkcd didn't update for me until 3 minutes later. :/

[Eshru]

I agree, the alt-text makes a good comic better in this particular example.

Actually, I think that this would be a pretty funny shirt or hat or something, as I know a good number of poeple who think in a similar fashion to the person in the comic.

Couldn't the alt text have been another panel and this have been a 2 panel comic, really? I dunno, it doesn't seem like an alternate bit, but rather a continuation of the conversation. Then what would the alt-text have been I suppose, eh?

[Interactive Civilian]

Hahahaha... I can see this comic getting a lot of use in religion flame wars on Fark.

[scottyb]

I guess agnostics either don't annoy him, or he missed a third group to feel superior to.

[Nezrite]

^ Perhaps he's simply undecided about agnostics...

But thank you - I am frequently confronted on a forum by someone I have deemed a "fundamentalist atheist" and I appreciate that I'm not the only one annoyed by this. I might be an atheist as well...or I might not...but I cannot abide fundamentalism of any sort. So...thanks!

[Benjamin-B]

My problem--and I'm guessing I'm not the only one--is that, no matter what the subject (religion, politics, philosophy) I always worry that I only believe what I believe in an attempt to feel superior to others, and when I catch myself doing that, I worry that I'm not really correcting myself, I'm just tricking myself into thinking that I'm correcting myself in order to feel even more superior. Then once I realize I'm in that cycle, I feel bad about feeling superior about getting myself out of the cycle.

Sorry if it seems like I'm just saying this to seem superior to everyone else, or if I'm just stating the obvious, but this is something that keeps me up at night. I should probably take a break from attempting to think about stuff, since I'm clearly not very good at it.

[rainslash]

I guess agnostics either don't annoy him, or he missed a third group to feel superior to.

maybe they don't annoy him...maybe they frighten him....

[lazor]

i was an atheist just the other day

get out of my head randall

[xodyac]

Okay, as an atheist I can say I mostly agree with this comic.

I really hate the atheists that are borderline nihilist. I'd actually rather those people had a god, just so they could find a reason to live. It's definitely one thing to be an atheist and a good person, and another to be an atheist that doesn't care.

[Dthen]

My problem--and I'm guessing I'm not the only one--is that, no matter what the subject (religion, politics, philosophy) I always worry that I only believe what I believe in an attempt to feel superior to others, and when I catch myself doing that, I worry that I'm not really correcting myself, I'm just tricking myself into thinking that I'm correcting myself in order to feel even more superior. Then once I realize I'm in that cycle, I feel bad about feeling superior about getting myself out of the cycle.

Sorry if it seems like I'm just saying this to seem superior to everyone else, or if I'm just stating the obvious, but this is something that keeps me up at night. I should probably take a break from attempting to think about stuff, since I'm clearly not very good at it.

I do the same thing.

[obzabor]

Sometimes you feel superior just because you are... and sometimes because you aren't. In fact, "being superior" and "feeling superior" are orthogonal states - you can be in either, or both, or none of them. (*feels extremely superior for realizing that*)

[Eternal Density]

I find people who hate xkcd to be as annoying as people who love it.

[Apteryx]

Because "atheism" is a entirely better description of the universe, only theists feel superior. Hard as it is for theists to admit, we atheists actually don't have to feel superior, we simply are so.

[alvarezp]

I think that arguing about God existence or non-existence is like trying to force zero to have a sign, either positive or negative. I think both are the same number.

function does_god_exist() {
if (sign(0) == 1) return true;
if (sign(0) == -1) return false;
return NULL;
}

[Azkyroth]

I really hate the atheists that are borderline nihilist. I'd actually rather those people had a god, just so they could find a reason to live. It's definitely one thing to be an atheist and a good person, and another to be an atheist that doesn't care.

Weird; I've never met an atheist like that. O.o

Apparently, to shallow thinkers, the only thing that's objectionable about religious fundamentalists is that they express their beliefs with emphasis.

[newman]

Fantastic comic, well played.

There's a personality type that is obsessed with finding some "truth" and then banging everybody else over the head with it - and both New Atheists and Fundamental Christians tend to have that personality type. The rest of us get to enjoy the deep irony that these sworn, mortal enemies are actually very, very similar. And pointing this out tends to INFURIATE both atheists/christians, which is enjoyable to watch.

[Pez Dispens3r]

we atheists actually don't have to feel superior, we simply are so.

I can think of at least one who isn't.

[rcox1]

The thing with Atheism or Theism is that they both start with the assumption that A Priori thinking is valid. We want to believe that going to church, or not, is best so we do, no based on evidence, but what on other tell us.
<p>
Agnosticism is often considered the enlightened view, but it even assumes that somethings. But assumptions are not bad. In science we assume that the world works by rules. That these rules are able to be inferred through careful observation, coded with specially defined symbols, and applicable throughout space time.
<p>
The advance that has been made is the ability to put assumptions aside if the are no longer useful. Some find the assumption of a god or gods or goddesses not useful, so they put those aside. Some feel that putting aside the assumption is equivalent to saying that these construct do not exist, which is not necessarily so. For example, we assumed light was a wave, then it was a particle, then found out that just because we threw away the assumption that it was not wave did not mean that is was not a wave.
<p>
So, to me, what make theist and atheist intolerable is that they tend to try want everyone to think the same way they do, but since such think is often based on emotional need and cultural norms, it really doesn't apply to everyone. Forcing one beliefs on everyone else is not cool.

[phlip]

Sometimes you feel superior just because you are... and sometimes because you aren't. In fact, "being superior" and "feeling superior" are orthogonal states - you can be in either, or both, or none of them. (*feels extremely superior for realizing that*)

They're not entirely independent, though... if your real superiority level is very high, you'll tend to recognise that and feel superior, but if your superiority level is very low, that'll include your ability to self-assess, and you will incorrectly feel superior (see: Dunning-Kruger effect). If your superiority is merely middle-range (or even middle-high), then you'll know enough to know you don't know enough, and not feel superior. So you end up with a curve that's high at both ends and low in the middle. A curve that goes through all four quadrants, yes, but still not independent.

[krogoth]

I'm an agnostic, and I was hoping to get jabbed at. I find the fighting of these details rather silly.

I'm on the I don't think its really knowable side.I intend on being good because its good, and if I have trouble when i die, well I suppose I'll burn that bridge when I come to it.I know, I enjoy twisting that phrase

[Pez Dispens3r]

I know, I enjoy twisting that phrase

Never explain the joke.

[Halrandir]

The thing with Atheism or Theism is that they both start with the assumption that A Priori thinking is valid. We want to believe that going to church, or not, is best so we do, no based on evidence, but what on other tell us.
<p>
Agnosticism is often considered the enlightened view, but it even assumes that somethings. But assumptions are not bad. In science we assume that the world works by rules. That these rules are able to be inferred through careful observation, coded with specially defined symbols, and applicable throughout space time.
<p>
The advance that has been made is the ability to put assumptions aside if the are no longer useful. Some find the assumption of a god or gods or goddesses not useful, so they put those aside. Some feel that putting aside the assumption is equivalent to saying that these construct do not exist, which is not necessarily so. For example, we assumed light was a wave, then it was a particle, then found out that just because we threw away the assumption that it was not wave did not mean that is was not a wave.
<p>
So, to me, what make theist and atheist intolerable is that they tend to try want everyone to think the same way they do, but since such think is often based on emotional need and cultural norms, it really doesn't apply to everyone. Forcing one beliefs on everyone else is not cool.

This.

[DCB]

I'm an agnostic, and I was hoping to get jabbed at. I find the fighting of these details rather silly.

I'm on the I don't think its really knowable side.I intend on being good because its good, and if I have trouble when i die, well I suppose I'll burn that bridge when I come to it.I know, I enjoy twisting that phrase

Maybe I'm misreading you, but if you burn the bridge when you come to it, wouldn't it be burnt before you cross it? Or am I just stupid and you were intentionally implying you're going to defy death...?

I don't know why atheists and christians are getting are the flame from randall... perhaps because fundamentalist buddhists (i.e. Shaolin monks) are too awesome to be made fun of?

[syko_lozz]

I loved this comic, and totally agree with it. Probably for different reasons than most of you (or even Randall), but I really dont want to get into that.

Sometimes you feel superior just because you are... and sometimes because you aren't. In fact, "being superior" and "feeling superior" are orthogonal states - you can be in either, or both, or none of them. (*feels extremely superior for realizing that*)

In my opinion, anyone who "feels superior", isnt. They are arrogant. And people who "are superior" know that they have many flaws and so are humble and tolerant of the flaws in others, and so dont "feel" superior at all.

[Interactive Civilian]

Those of you making a distinction between "atheist" and "agnostic" do realize that they are not mutually exclusive, right? Theism/Atheism simply refer to theistic BELIEF, while Gnosticism/Agnosticism refer to whether or not you feel you have KNOWLEDGE of something.

Theist simply means "having a belief in a deity or deities". Atheist simply means "lacking a belief in a deity or deities" and can span from simple lack of belief to actually believing there is no (something that some refer to as "anti-theist"). Generally the idea is like this:

Gnostic Theist: I believe in God and I feel I know what God is about.
Agnostic Theist: I believe in some kind of God, but I don't know its nature.
Agnostic Atheist: I don't believe there is a God, but I'd accept the possibility given evidence.
Gnostic Atheist (or anti-theist): I believe there is no God.

So, saying "I'm an agnostic" in response to a question about your beliefs is really just dodging the question.

Not that anyone is actually asking anyone else a direct question about their beliefs here.

/agnostic atheist

[gmalivuk]

Those of you making blanket statements about the meanings of "atheist" and "agnostic" do realize that there isn't really a consensus about that, right?

[Faranya]

I'm an agnostic, and I was hoping to get jabbed at. I find the fighting of these details rather silly.

I'm on the I don't think its really knowable side.I intend on being good because its good, and if I have trouble when i die, well I suppose I'll burn that bridge when I come to it.I know, I enjoy twisting that phrase

Maybe I'm misreading you, but if you burn the bridge when you come to it, wouldn't it be burnt before you cross it? Or am I just stupid and you were intentionally implying you're going to defy death...?

I don't know why atheists and christians are getting are the flame from randall... perhaps because fundamentalist buddhists (i.e. Shaolin monks) are too awesome to be made fun of?

One: If you are crossing the bridge into Hell, it really doesn't matter if the bridge is on fire when you do

Two: You try messing with Shaolin monks. Those dudes are terrifying.

[gmalivuk]

I don't know why atheists and christians are getting are the flame from randall... perhaps because fundamentalist buddhists (i.e. Shaolin monks) are too awesome to be made fun of?

That, or more likely the fact that I don't know of any large group of fundamentalist Buddhists, or of people who complain about fundamentalist Buddhists, in the United States. Which is the country Randall is writing from. There are, on the other hand, millions of fundamentalist Christians, and a smaller but still significant number of apologetic agnostics/atheists who want to pretend they're taking the middle road of moderation between perceived extremes of theism and atheism. There are also some "fundamentalist" a(nti-)theists, of course, but they're so small in number that folks have to twist things around so they can throw the likes of Dawkins and Dennett into the mix and make it look like it's a larger group of people than it ever will be.

[littlelj]

Theology? At this time of the morning?!

The best xkcd strips are the simplest, IMHO.

[Mike_Bson]

Okay, as an atheist I can say I mostly agree with this comic.

I really hate the atheists that are borderline nihilist. I'd actually rather those people had a god, just so they could find a reason to live. It's definitely one thing to be an atheist and a good person, and another to be an atheist that doesn't care.

I can be a nihilist and still care about life.

[from canada]

Are people seriously disecting theist/atheist/agnostic/etc definitions as if it hasn't been done before in a thousand other places? Break them down into a million categories if you want, you're still not gonna be able to cover every single person's beliefs with easy to swallow labels. Just stop.

And yes I sure as fuck do feel superior to you, thank you for asking.

[oddtail]

Good comic. Better alt text. And there's really no good way of feeling superior. Whether religion is a load of crap or whether it has merit (I am personally religious, but I get the view that religion is a bunch of fairy-tales), religion can - if done right - teach a person humility.

A few clarifications, before somebody asks (and I know someone would):

1) I know some religious groups don't really suggest a "humility-belief" connection. It's entirely my personal opinion, but I think the two lessons to be learnt from religion is humility and love. The rest is theology and fluff (not that the fluffy part of religions is useless. It's fun, actually. But not central)
2) I should perhaps point out that I think the former point is a universal, or can be. Then again, reading "Tao of Pooh" convinced me that even religions that are supposed to emphasise humility still have followers who feel smugly superior (seriously, what is up with that book?)
3) No, religion is far from being the only way to learn love and humility. But it's a good way, if done right.
4) Humility does not automatically equal lack of healthy pride and feeling of self-worth. The Western world often equates being humble with being meek or even a wimp. Not the kind of humility I have in mind.
5) I can totally relate to the person in the thread who described a vicious circle of feeling superior, then feeling superior because of not feeling superior, and so on. I guess it can't be completely escaped. Part of the reason we adopt stances we think of as open-minded and mature is to feel good about ourselves. But it doesn't change the fact that it's better than not even trying.
6) While I like the comic, my experience with atheists and people like the guy in the comic has led me to believe that I'm *much* more likely to encounter airs of superiority among the former than the latter. So while I appreciate the joke of the comic, I side with the alt-text more, ideologically (is it OK to treat the comic semi-seriously? Or is that overanalysing already?)

So, in a nutshell: religion-based feelings of superiority kind of go against what I consider the neat aspect of being religious. I guess that's why I find the comic witty and smart, although I can't help but wonder just how many people interpreted the comic completely differently.

[ijuin]

Those of you making a distinction between "atheist" and "agnostic" do realize that they are not mutually exclusive, right? Theism/Atheism simply refer to theistic BELIEF, while Gnosticism/Agnosticism refer to whether or not you feel you have KNOWLEDGE of something.
/agnostic atheist

I believe that, for the purposes of the current discussion, "Atheist" has been used to mean "belief in the absence of God/gods". Therefore, those who don't particularly care to think about whether God/gods exist (and therefore have no strong opinion either way) are being put in a third category besides Theist/Atheist. In other words, they are the "neutral" group as opposed to the pro/con group.

[point and laugh]

I feel like the brand "Atheist" has been perverted.
From what I understand, anyway, "Theism" is the belief in a diety or dieties. (In this case, God.) Atheism should therefore be a lack of belief in a diety such as God.
Even though I view myself as an atheist for not believing in the existence of a God, I don't reject that existence, either. I don't like to call myself an atheist, however, because of people like Maher and Dawkins who are atheists that create the image that atheism is anti-religion. I'm actually a big fan of non-fundamentalist religion, so I feel alienated by those kind of people.
At the same time, I don't like calling myself an agnostic, because that's too broad of an answer to a question of faith. Unless a person is a fundamentalist that completely rejects the idea of God or completely accepts the infallibility of religious doctrine, they are technically agnostic to some degree.

The way that people generally view agnostics is the way that I think atheists should be identified: questioning the existence of God, not necessarily rejecting it. What people generally describe as atheist should be given a different brand, such as anti-theist: wholesale belief that there is no God.

I dunno. I just feel that the current stereotypes are too stereotypical I guess...
(If you wish, replace God with god(s).)

[Kaijyuu]

I'm the guy in the comic


Encyclopedia Dramatica lays out my opinion rather well:

[Some] agnostics argue that because one cannot prove or disprove the existence of God, afterlife or metaphysics, that there is no reason for them to adopt a stance either way. These people are just fucking lazy and would rather sit around smoking pot than do anything productive.

Just replace "smoking pot" with "playing video games."

[Notch]

Those of you making a distinction between "atheist" and "agnostic" do realize that they are not mutually exclusive, right? Theism/Atheism simply refer to theistic BELIEF, while Gnosticism/Agnosticism refer to whether or not you feel you have KNOWLEDGE of something.

Theist simply means "having a belief in a deity or deities". Atheist simply means "lacking a belief in a deity or deities" and can span from simple lack of belief to actually believing there is no (something that some refer to as "anti-theist"). Generally the idea is like this:

Gnostic Theist: I believe in God and I feel I know what God is about.
Agnostic Theist: I believe in some kind of God, but I don't know its nature.
Agnostic Atheist: I don't believe there is a God, but I'd accept the possibility given evidence.
Gnostic Atheist (or anti-theist): I believe there is no God.

So, saying "I'm an agnostic" in response to a question about your beliefs is really just dodging the question.

Not that anyone is actually asking anyone else a direct question about their beliefs here.

/agnostic atheist

What about people who say they KNOW?

For example, I KNOW there is no Chtulu. I also, equally strongly, KNOW there is no god.
(Well, they exist as concepts, but that's an entirely different thing. It's possible to be afraid of chtulu without him existing, so he can still affect our reality)

[Mike_Bson]

Those of you making a distinction between "atheist" and "agnostic" do realize that they are not mutually exclusive, right? Theism/Atheism simply refer to theistic BELIEF, while Gnosticism/Agnosticism refer to whether or not you feel you have KNOWLEDGE of something.

Theist simply means "having a belief in a deity or deities". Atheist simply means "lacking a belief in a deity or deities" and can span from simple lack of belief to actually believing there is no (something that some refer to as "anti-theist"). Generally the idea is like this:

Gnostic Theist: I believe in God and I feel I know what God is about.
Agnostic Theist: I believe in some kind of God, but I don't know its nature.
Agnostic Atheist: I don't believe there is a God, but I'd accept the possibility given evidence.
Gnostic Atheist (or anti-theist): I believe there is no God.

So, saying "I'm an agnostic" in response to a question about your beliefs is really just dodging the question.

Not that anyone is actually asking anyone else a direct question about their beliefs here.

/agnostic atheist

What about people who say they KNOW?

For example, I KNOW there is no Chtulu. I also, equally strongly, KNOW there is no god.
(Well, they exist as concepts, but that's an entirely different thing. It's possible to be afraid of chtulu without him existing, so he can still affect our reality)

Gnostic atheist.