0890: "Etymology"

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Icalasari
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Re: 0890: Etymology

Postby Icalasari » Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:29 am UTC

zmatt wrote:That is much easier than answering why there is sound in space or how hyperdrives work or why Jar Jar Binks had to be born.


My mother is a Starwars fan (knows more than me, at least) and likes Jar Jar Binks. I'm getting the feeling lately that that means I should repent for merely being related

Rendon
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Re: 0890: Etymology

Postby Rendon » Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:45 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:As opposed to the "Millenium Banta"? The Banta was the giant thing that Luke fought at Jaba's house, right? Maybe the Millenium Womp Rat. Wait, what's a rat?


Millenium Mynock.

Move along. Move along.

herbys
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Re: 0890: Etymology

Postby herbys » Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:58 am UTC

Maybe it's not about the bird, but about the Ford Falcon car.

Flambino
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Re: 0890: Etymology

Postby Flambino » Mon Apr 25, 2011 7:10 am UTC

Rendon wrote:Millenium Mynock.


Darn. I was about to suggest that.
Are there really no other "fowl" in Star Wars? And by Star Wars I mean the 3(!) movies, period.

As for the parsecs thing, I just assume Lucas is a moron and doesn't know what he's writing. But I've heard rationalizations too. One was that the Kessel Run involves flying close to a black hole to avoid detection and capture (it's a smuggling run, apparently), and that the Millenium Falcon has run closer than others. Of course, black holes are never mentioned in Star Wars either, but OK, space is space. But the rationalization was told to me in the same breath as a story about how a prototype Death Star had been constructed inside that very same Black Hole... yeah, that makes lots of sense. And anyway parsecs is (iirc) based on our Earth and our Sun, so...

sliverstorm
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Re: 0890: Etymology

Postby sliverstorm » Mon Apr 25, 2011 7:21 am UTC

toluene wrote:Wait wait WAIT. "It's the ship that made the Kessel Run in less than 12 parsecs."

Wait wait WAIT. A parsec is a unit of distance, not time.


Duh. That's just how good the Millennium Falcon was :wink:

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MikeStern
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Re: 0890: Etymology

Postby MikeStern » Mon Apr 25, 2011 7:28 am UTC

adho wrote: ...Incidentally, falcons are raptors.


Clearly you must be mistaken since, as this photo clearly shows, falcons can wear hats, and raptors, as we know, cannot:
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Re: 0890: Etymology

Postby ocean_soul » Mon Apr 25, 2011 7:30 am UTC

My suspension of disbelief had more problems with the use of parsec as e measure of time...
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TCS
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Re: 0890: Etymology

Postby TCS » Mon Apr 25, 2011 7:31 am UTC

You forgot this simple fact: That discussion happened "A long time ago in a galaxy far far away." Indo-European language clearly had Imperial or Republic roots.

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Re: 0890: Etymology

Postby Teaspoon » Mon Apr 25, 2011 7:36 am UTC

This tubing is relevant to this discussion.

Also, hi everybody!

/wave

I wonder how many of you remember me from my forum-active period in 2006-2007.

adho
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Re: 0890: Etymology

Postby adho » Mon Apr 25, 2011 7:50 am UTC

MikeStern wrote:
adho wrote: ...Incidentally, falcons are raptors.


Clearly you must be mistaken since, as this photo clearly shows, falcons can wear hats, and raptors, as we know, cannot:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raptor

The standard repository for all knowledge and wisdom disagrees.

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Re: 0890: Etymology

Postby Technical Ben » Mon Apr 25, 2011 7:52 am UTC

SW15243 wrote:
Noid.EXE wrote:
toluene wrote:Wait wait WAIT. "It's the ship that made the Kessel Run in less than 12 parsecs."

Wait wait WAIT. A parsec is a unit of distance, not time. What gives, Mr. Munroe?


I remember watching it with him, and when we reached the
part where Han Solo brags that the Millennium Falcon made the Kessel Run in "less than
twelve parsecs," he made an exasperated sound. I asked him what was wrong, and he
explained that a parsec is a unit of distance, not time. I said, "Dad, it's just a movie." He said,
"Yes, but they can afford to get the science right." And I thought, yes. He's absolutely right.


-- Nick Sagan, Memories of my Dad

Incidentally, a friend of mine and I were trying to reconcile this, and reasoned that so long as the Kessel Run was a course that had curves or obstacles in it, technically the boast would still work, if he was speaking of the ship's maneuverability. That is, he made the Kessel Run in the shortest possible distance, as opposed to going faster than other ships. This would kind of make sense since Obi and Luke were trying to evade capture, so you'd want something that could turn on a dime, probably.

And yes, I know it's tenuous, but it's the best we could come up with.

Or he was using buzz words to bamboozle them. He was not known for his honesty. ;)
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Re: 0890: Etymology

Postby Typhi » Mon Apr 25, 2011 7:53 am UTC

ocean_soul wrote:My suspension of disbelief had more problems with the use of parsec as e measure of time...


The Kessel Run involves going through The Maw, which involves black holes. Faster ships can stay fly closer to the black holes and thus fly on a straighter course.

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Re: 0890: Etymology

Postby Gamer_2k4 » Mon Apr 25, 2011 8:56 am UTC

Asking what a falcon is is just stupid. It's the name of a ship! You don't need to understand the name to accept that there's no problem with it being named such. For example, if I was reading an article about the sinking of the Lusitania, I wouldn't suddenly look up and go, "Hey, what's a 'Lusitania'?" It's a ship's name! It's weird! Who cares?

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Re: 0890: Etymology

Postby Snownuki » Mon Apr 25, 2011 9:10 am UTC

Flambino wrote:
Rendon wrote:Millenium Mynock.


Darn. I was about to suggest that.
Are there really no other "fowl" in Star Wars? And by Star Wars I mean the 3(!) movies, period.

As for the parsecs thing, I just assume Lucas is a moron and doesn't know what he's writing. But I've heard rationalizations too. One was that the Kessel Run involves flying close to a black hole to avoid detection and capture (it's a smuggling run, apparently), and that the Millenium Falcon has run closer than others. Of course, black holes are never mentioned in Star Wars either, but OK, space is space. But the rationalization was told to me in the same breath as a story about how a prototype Death Star had been constructed inside that very same Black Hole... yeah, that makes lots of sense. And anyway parsecs is (iirc) based on our Earth and our Sun, so...


The Kessel Run flies close to a *cluster* of black holes called The Maw. Using precise calculations a route was found into the middle of The Maw using the edge where the gravitational pull of two or more black holes negated each other, making this a perfect place to set up a secret R&D lab that gave us such wonders as The Death Star and The Sun Crusher.

So this is at least slightly more believable than the installation being directly inside a black hole.

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Re: 0890: Etymology

Postby jozwa » Mon Apr 25, 2011 9:13 am UTC

Exactly, Gamer_2k4. Silly Randall!Luke...

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Re: 0890: Etymology

Postby LoopyChew » Mon Apr 25, 2011 9:27 am UTC

Strangely enough, this was kindasorta covered by the novelization of "A New Hope," which I remember for some reason. During one of Luke's first encounters with Ben Kenobi (I think around the time he learns what a Jedi Knight is), Ben muses something along the lines of, "still, a duck needs to learn to float before he can swim."

Luke's immediate reply to that: "What's a duck?"

...evidently this quote is in Wookieepedia (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Wookieepedia:Quote_of_the_Day/Archive/Luke_Skywalker). Search for those three words; you know them to be true. Leaving my own paraphrasing of Ben's quote untouched, though.

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Re: 0890: Etymology

Postby Flambino » Mon Apr 25, 2011 10:06 am UTC

Snownuki wrote:
Flambino wrote:But I've heard rationalizations too. One was that the Kessel Run involves flying close to a black hole...


The Kessel Run flies close to a *cluster* of black holes called The Maw. Using precise calculations a route was found into the middle of The Maw using the edge where the gravitational pull of two or more black holes negated each other, making this a perfect place to set up a secret R&D lab that gave us such wonders as The Death Star and The Sun Crusher.

So this is at least slightly more believable than the installation being directly inside a black hole.


Ah, well, yeah, that helps, I suppose... still that's from the Expanded Universe stuff, right? That is, it's not something Lucas came up with. So I still hold that Lucas is a moron who didn't know what he was writing. An Occam's Razor sort of thing :)

Anyway, it still doesn't really resolve the issue of what a parsec actually is in the Star Wars universe, since we base it on our Sun and Earth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parsec)
I suppose a Star War parsec must be a helluva lot smaller than the 19 trillion miles we use. Otherwise 12 parsecs is an, well, astronomically large distance. It doesn't exactly take a talented pilot or a good ship to miss something by 228 trillion miles :)

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Re: 0890: Etymology

Postby Flambino » Mon Apr 25, 2011 10:19 am UTC

Gamer_2k4 wrote:Asking what a falcon is is just stupid. It's the name of a ship! You don't need to understand the name to accept that there's no problem with it being named such. For example, if I was reading an article about the sinking of the Lusitania, I wouldn't suddenly look up and go, "Hey, what's a 'Lusitania'?" It's a ship's name! It's weird! Who cares?


"Lusitania" does actually mean something (it was a Roman province: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lusitania).

But more to the point, it's true that a name doens't have to mean anything, but in this case the Millenium Falcon is a name that contains some words that make sense. And the definite article hints that "falcon" is a noun. If you were reading about a (non-fictional) ship called "The Millenium Regonculator" you might, however briefly, wonder just what the hell a regonculator is.

I'm not saying you're wrong. It is a fictional ship in a fictional universe that's told as a story. But the comic isn't wrong either.
Last edited by Flambino on Mon Apr 25, 2011 10:45 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.

JohnMcL7
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Re: 0890: Etymology

Postby JohnMcL7 » Mon Apr 25, 2011 10:20 am UTC

Flambino wrote:
Anyway, it still doesn't really resolve the issue of what a parsec actually is in the Star Wars universe, since we base it on our Sun and Earth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parsec)
I suppose a Star War parsec must be a helluva lot smaller than the 19 trillion miles we use. Otherwise 12 parsecs is an, well, astronomically large distance. It doesn't exactly take a talented pilot or a good ship to miss something by 228 trillion miles :)


No, he made the entire run in 12 parsecs not trim the run by 12 parsecs therefore another fast ship may have taken a route just 0.1 parsecs longer.

John

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Mr. Burke
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Re: 0890: Etymology

Postby Mr. Burke » Mon Apr 25, 2011 10:30 am UTC

It's called Translation Convention, kids.

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Re: 0890: Etymology

Postby JudeMorrigan » Mon Apr 25, 2011 11:34 am UTC

The whole Kessel Run thing is the canonical example of why I hate the Expanded Universe. Their explanation is complex, unlikely, and to be frank, still doesn't make much sense if you think about it too hard. I much prefer the explanation where Han was trying to dazzle the local yokels with a bit of what he considered finely crafted bullshit. Obiwan's reaction under this theory was not "I have a hard time believing your ship is *that* fast" but "I know you're trying to bullshit me, but need your ship too badly to actually call you on it".

Granted, there's the line where Obiwan tells Luke that if the Falcon is as fast as Han's boasting, they ought to do well. But remember that Han ALSO bragged to Obiwan in the Kessel Run scene that the Falcon had "outrun Imperial starships, not the local
bulk-cruisers, mind you. I'm talking about the big Corellian ships now."

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Re: 0890: Etymology

Postby Atkey » Mon Apr 25, 2011 11:41 am UTC

Farabor wrote:You may be missing the point here...

Sure, there may be falcon-equivalents in the Star Wars Galaxy that the ship is named for....but how likely is LUKE to know what one is? I mean, he comes from a freaking desert planet!

I certainly don't know the names of all the weird species that are on my own freaking planet, let alone somewhere out there in the galaxy...I think its perfectly reasonable to have Luke have no clue what a falcon is, as I'm sure there's no Tattoine equivalent.


Maybe the Empire had a surprisingly good education system. I mean, all we know is that the Rebels didn't like them and that Palpatine and Vader killed a few people, it could be that on a welfare basis they were the best regime that the galaxy had ever seen. Great health care, generous state pension and a booming economy (the death star construction must have created more than a few jobs).

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Re: 0890: Etymology

Postby Ryan Fenton » Mon Apr 25, 2011 12:09 pm UTC

The book "Anathem" (by Neal Stephenson) actually starts out with a nice addressing of this topic. The story is set on another world, with its own indigenous ecosystem, but the author specifically mentions that to avoid spending countless subtopics on discussing each new analogous animal and plant, it will simply say "carrot" for the appropriate vegetable, and leave it at that. It may be a purple fungus that just has a thick texture somewhat like a carrot - but carrot will do.

It also has a rather nice geometric proof of Pythagoras theorem that I liked - and I'm just starting to read the book. Nice meaty sci-fi.

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Re: 0890: Etymology

Postby matrix3509 » Mon Apr 25, 2011 12:11 pm UTC

That's not all. I mean this stuff is supposed to be taking place like a super long time ago, in a galaxy incredibly far away no less. How would some dude know what is going on in said galaxy. I mean come on, at least try to make this dross sound plausible. I mean realistically, light from this super duper far off galaxy might not have even reached us yet. This is so fake. NEXT.

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Re: 0890: Etymology

Postby glasnt » Mon Apr 25, 2011 12:14 pm UTC

"Then man your ships, and may the force be with you"

What's the force?


The force is what gives a jedi his power, it ...

I'm not a jedi though

Well.. no, but Luke is.

No I'm not

Well not yet

You're the only jedi in the room

Well... yes, yes I am.

So you pretty much just wished yourself luck.

Darn tootin'.

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SEE
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Re: 0890: Etymology

Postby SEE » Mon Apr 25, 2011 12:25 pm UTC

JudeMorrigan wrote:The whole Kessel Run thing is the canonical example of why I hate the Expanded Universe. Their explanation is complex, unlikely, and to be frank, still doesn't make much sense if you think about it too hard. I much prefer the explanation where Han was trying to dazzle the local yokels with a bit of what he considered finely crafted bullshit. Obiwan's reaction under this theory was not "I have a hard time believing your ship is *that* fast" but "I know you're trying to bullshit me, but need your ship too badly to actually call you on it".


What I came in to say, both parts.

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SirMustapha
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Re: 0890: Etymology

Postby SirMustapha » Mon Apr 25, 2011 12:32 pm UTC

I just discovered what Hell is like, if it exists:

It's watching a film with Randall.

I wouldn't wish that even to Randall himself.

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Re: 0890: Etymology

Postby Bobsama » Mon Apr 25, 2011 12:34 pm UTC

SEE wrote:
JudeMorrigan wrote:The whole Kessel Run thing is the canonical example of why I hate the Expanded Universe. Their explanation is complex, unlikely, and to be frank, still doesn't make much sense if you think about it too hard. I much prefer the explanation where Han was trying to dazzle the local yokels with a bit of what he considered finely crafted bullshit. Obiwan's reaction under this theory was not "I have a hard time believing your ship is *that* fast" but "I know you're trying to bullshit me, but need your ship too badly to actually call you on it".


What I came in to say, both parts.
From what I remember, he was also boasting about being able to evade the Imperials; perhaps the 12-parsec run cut through Imperial space and, since he was a smuggler, he had to avoid contact with them. He took a gutsy move and had a ship fast enough to outrun the Imperials and then disappear.

not baby Newt
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Re: 0890: Etymology

Postby not baby Newt » Mon Apr 25, 2011 12:37 pm UTC

Atkey wrote:
Farabor wrote:You may be missing the point here...

Sure, there may be falcon-equivalents in the Star Wars Galaxy that the ship is named for....but how likely is LUKE to know what one is? I mean, he comes from a freaking desert planet!


Maybe the Empire had a surprisingly good education system. I mean, all we know is that the Rebels didn't like them and that Palpatine and Vader killed a few people, it could be that on a welfare basis they were the best regime that the galaxy had ever seen. Great health care, generous state pension and a booming economy (the death star construction must have created more than a few jobs).

Maybe Han got it from Discovery or the closest analogue mass media.

Edit: for premature posting.
Last edited by not baby Newt on Mon Apr 25, 2011 12:44 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 0890: Etymology

Postby Pxtl » Mon Apr 25, 2011 12:43 pm UTC

I had the same problem with Han saying "I'l see you in Hell" in the second film. The only apparent religion in Star Wars is the Force, and there doesn't seem to be any concept of Hell in that.

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Re: 0890: Etymology

Postby Pxtl » Mon Apr 25, 2011 12:47 pm UTC

Bobsama wrote:
What I came in to say, both parts.
From what I remember, he was also boasting about being able to evade the Imperials; perhaps the 12-parsec run cut through Imperial space and, since he was a smuggler, he had to avoid contact with them. He took a gutsy move and had a ship fast enough to outrun the Imperials and then disappear.[/quote]

Iirc, the C-canonical explanation is that the Kessel run is a region riddled with black holes and so only ships with powerful engines can make the shortest routes through the region... I've never liked that one.

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Re: 0890: Etymology

Postby Captain Red » Mon Apr 25, 2011 12:53 pm UTC

Technical Ben wrote:
SW15243 wrote:
Noid.EXE wrote:
toluene wrote:Wait wait WAIT. "It's the ship that made the Kessel Run in less than 12 parsecs."

Wait wait WAIT. A parsec is a unit of distance, not time. What gives, Mr. Munroe?


I remember watching it with him, and when we reached the
part where Han Solo brags that the Millennium Falcon made the Kessel Run in "less than
twelve parsecs," he made an exasperated sound. I asked him what was wrong, and he
explained that a parsec is a unit of distance, not time. I said, "Dad, it's just a movie." He said,
"Yes, but they can afford to get the science right." And I thought, yes. He's absolutely right.


-- Nick Sagan, Memories of my Dad

Incidentally, a friend of mine and I were trying to reconcile this, and reasoned that so long as the Kessel Run was a course that had curves or obstacles in it, technically the boast would still work, if he was speaking of the ship's maneuverability. That is, he made the Kessel Run in the shortest possible distance, as opposed to going faster than other ships. This would kind of make sense since Obi and Luke were trying to evade capture, so you'd want something that could turn on a dime, probably.

And yes, I know it's tenuous, but it's the best we could come up with.

Or he was using buzz words to bamboozle them. He was not known for his honesty. ;)


Hah, at least I'm not the only one who went that route. Obiwan has that "wow, do people actually fall for that?" smirk at it, Han is hard up for cash, and he thinks he's dealing with a couple of backwater yokels(or backsand yokels).

Anyway, it seems to me that trying to make the parsec line make sense in an honest manner is like having Greedo shoot first. It makes the most sense as Han trying to put one over on them, it's the simplest explanation, and the fact that no one seems to get it is another sign of Lucas' wanting writing and directorial skills.

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Re: 0890: Etymology

Postby Jeff S » Mon Apr 25, 2011 1:09 pm UTC

Farabor wrote:You may be missing the point here...

Sure, there may be falcon-equivalents in the Star Wars Galaxy that the ship is named for....but how likely is LUKE to know what one is? I mean, he comes from a freaking desert planet!

I certainly don't know the names of all the weird species that are on my own freaking planet, let alone somewhere out there in the galaxy...I think its perfectly reasonable to have Luke have no clue what a falcon is, as I'm sure there's no Tattoine equivalent.


I've seen pictures and read/heard names for the associated pictures, of many animals I've never seen in person. If Luke has been reasonably educated, it's quite possible he would at least know about birds, and perhaps the SWG equivalent of a Falcon (I too have always just subscribed to the "translation" hypothesis, btw) was well known because in Star Wars history, maybe it had been used as a symbol by some powerful noble house, or corporation, or something. It might be very well known throughout the Galaxy. Why not?

On the other hand, it's true that in a galaxy with thousands of inhabited planets, there'll be so many species that only the Star Wars equivalent of a Zoology professor would be likely to know a lot of species from a lot of planets. Still, Falcon's were, apparently, well known. I can buy that.

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Re: 0890: Etymology

Postby Flambino » Mon Apr 25, 2011 1:15 pm UTC

JohnMcL7 wrote:
Flambino wrote:Anyway, it still doesn't really resolve the issue of what a parsec actually is in the Star Wars universe, since we base it on our Sun and Earth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parsec)
I suppose a Star War parsec must be a helluva lot smaller than the 19 trillion miles we use. Otherwise 12 parsecs is an, well, astronomically large distance. It doesn't exactly take a talented pilot or a good ship to miss something by 228 trillion miles :)


No, he made the entire run in 12 parsecs not trim the run by 12 parsecs therefore another fast ship may have taken a route just 0.1 parsecs longer.

John


Ok, that might be it, but I thought the entire point was how close he came to this Maw thing, not how long the entire route was. Also, I still don't know what a parsec eqautes in the Star Wars universe, much less what 12 of them add up to. So you're assuming that it is indeed something like 228 trillion miles, and thus it must be the entire journey. Honestly, I'd let it go, if you'd said "in Star Wars, a parsec is based on the blah-blah and roughly equavalent to X miles" and so it'd all make sense. In fact, I would even have accepted "In Star Wars, 1 parsec is equal to 1/12th of what The Millenium Falcon can do the the Kessel Run in" however circular that is :)
(Apologies for ending that sentence with a preposition)

Eitherway, I thought the entire dialogue in the cantina was about the Millenium Falcon's amazing speed, so technically Han should be boasting how he took the longest, most leisurely route yet still arrived in time. Ok, the speed would allow him to fly even closer to the black holes without getting caught by them, sure, but if you go that route (discussion-wise) a slower yet more massive ship could make the same trip in the same time by staying a little farther away... and so we're back to it really being about time taken fra A to B; i.e. that time is what matters in doing the Kessel Run and that's what you brag about. And so, you'll likely to stay safely away from the Maw if you're fast enough that you'll still make good time. Or, if you do go close and fast, then again the bottom line would be how long it took you. So Han seems to be bragging about distances when the times are what's important - which is just an odd thing to do. Like saying "I run a 4-minute mile in 2 miles" - umm... ok?

But if we're back to it being about time taken, then, once again, the simplest explanation of Han's use of the word "parsec" is that Lucas was talking - or writing, rather - out of his ass. It really is the simplest solution to all of this. Although I'll admit that this rationalization'ing stuff is great, pointless fun :)

(None of the above is meant to be mean-spirited, by the way. Well, some of it is, but only toward mr George Lucas. And I'm sure the parsecs thing has been settled long ago by proper Star Wars experts - which I ain't! - but I just couldn't help myself)

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Vael
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Re: 0890: Etymology

Postby Vael » Mon Apr 25, 2011 1:16 pm UTC

adho wrote:
Also, this raises the whole question of naming a spaceship after a falcon. While yes, falcons are fast and nimble, their flight is completely different to that of Solo's ship. Incidentally, falcons are raptors.


I always felt Millennium Dolphin would have been a decent fit, especially in the eighties.

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Re: 0890: Etymology

Postby Mental Mouse » Mon Apr 25, 2011 1:24 pm UTC

Pxtl wrote:I had the same problem with Han saying "I'l see you in Hell" in the second film. The only apparent religion in Star Wars is the Force, and there doesn't seem to be any concept of Hell in that.


Except that even Jediism seems more a practice than a religion as such. We have examples of that from Asia, such as Taoism, Confucianism, and some forms of Buddhism. Such a practice would have no trouble coexisting with various local religions (multiple planets, remember!), and on our own world, the idea of various sorts of Hell long predates Christianity.

Also, Technical Ben et al, YES on the "parsec" line being Han's line of bullshit.

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Re: 0890: Etymology

Postby Flambino » Mon Apr 25, 2011 1:39 pm UTC

Mental Mouse wrote:Also, Technical Ben et al, YES on the "parsec" line being Han's line of bullshit.


Yeah, that is actually a much better rationalization. But the other rationalization about distances and black hole clusters and such (which sounds like an established explanation) is much a jucier thing to debate :)

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Re: 0890: Etymology

Postby DreadArchon » Mon Apr 25, 2011 1:44 pm UTC

I knew this comic would be mega-ultra-hyper-overanalyzed when I saw it.

Me, I just thought it was funny as given. :D

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DougDean
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Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2010 1:11 pm UTC

Re: 0890: Etymology

Postby DougDean » Mon Apr 25, 2011 1:51 pm UTC

What's a "millennium"?

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DougDean
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Re: 0890: Etymology

Postby DougDean » Mon Apr 25, 2011 1:52 pm UTC

Parsecs: distance/time

Star Wars is not Science Fiction. It's Space Opera. Deal with it.


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