0903: "Extended Mind"

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troutio
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Re: 0903: "Extended Mind"

Postby troutio » Wed May 25, 2011 6:09 pm UTC

Random article
Island Air Charters
Tauranga
Bay of Plenty Region
Regions of New Zealand
Local government
State (polity)
Social sciences
Scholarly method
Philosophy

Sample size of 1 FTW.

russnr
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Re: 0903: "Extended Mind"

Postby russnr » Wed May 25, 2011 6:12 pm UTC

But the infinite loops are not infinite because Wikipedia keeps changing...

And if "infinite loops" are the only case then the original theory must be true.

Toraoji
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Re: 0903: "Extended Mind"

Postby Toraoji » Wed May 25, 2011 6:21 pm UTC

I'm sure this has already been stated, but i don't feel like reading through 8 pages of comments so I'll just add it again :)

if you start at the Wiki page for XKCD, this doesn't work. You get stuck in a loop around "knowledge."

ineedanxkcdaccounteventually
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Re: 0903: "Extended Mind"

Postby ineedanxkcdaccounteventually » Wed May 25, 2011 6:25 pm UTC

didn't work for "calculus"...
funny comic tho

plablongaman
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Re: 0903: "Extended Mind"

Postby plablongaman » Wed May 25, 2011 6:26 pm UTC

There is an infinite loop with: knowledge -> facts -> information -> sequence -> mathematics -> study -> knowledge.

worenwallis
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Re: 0903: "Extended Mind"

Postby worenwallis » Wed May 25, 2011 6:36 pm UTC

Dysentery -> diarrhea -> bowel movements -> digestion -> absorbed -> vertebrates -> subphylum -> taxonomic rank -> biological classification -> biologists -> scientist -> systematic -> elements -> Chemical element -> chemical substance -> chemistry -> science -> knowledge -> facts -> information -> sequence -> mathematics...

What strange connection.

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BrianB
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Re: 0903: "Extended Mind"

Postby BrianB » Wed May 25, 2011 6:37 pm UTC

mattcoz wrote:Starting at "Spark Plug" I get stuck in an infinite loop:

...
Knowledge
Fact
Information
Sequence
Mathematics
Research
Knowledge
...


Umm... Information goes to Symbol, then...
Numerals
Writing System
Symbolic System
Anthropology
Humanities
Academic Disciplines
Academic (Academia)
Community
Group
Group (Mathematics) (nice picture of a Rubik's Cube)
Mathematics
Study
Knowledge
Facts
Information
Sequence
- back to Mathematics

sqrdsqr
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Re: 0903: "Extended Mind"

Postby sqrdsqr » Wed May 25, 2011 6:48 pm UTC

As it turns out, not only does xkcd have a wiki page, but it does not in fact lead to philosophy. It gets stuck in a knowledge loop, hitting knowledge the second time around 16 or 17. Other than loops this does make sense, and it does work with other pages. The page 'Wiki' also ends in the knowledge loop-back though... I wounder how many pages end up there?

Knowledge->Fact->Information->Sequence->Mathematics->Study->Knowledge


mjonas
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Re: 0903: "Extended Mind"

Postby mjonas » Wed May 25, 2011 6:50 pm UTC

Seems like Science is the bottom result for everything before it starts looping back on itself. Even Philosophy leads there.

scruff23
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Re: 0903: "Extended Mind"

Postby scruff23 » Wed May 25, 2011 6:53 pm UTC

I am finding that I end at Knowledge as often as Philosophy, using this snippet of perl:

Code: Select all

#!/usr/local/bin/perl -w

use LWP::UserAgent;
use Getopt::Std;

$whost = "http://www.wikipedia.org";
$path = "/wiki/";

getopts('w:', \%opts);
if (!$opts{w}) { die "Gotta give me a -w<word|phrase>\n"; }
else { $word = $opts{w}; }

my $agent = LWP::UserAgent->new;
$agent->agent("PhilosophyHunter 0.23");

$loopout = $philosophy = 0;

if ($word =~ /\s/) { $word =~ s/\s/_/g; }
$url = $whost . $path . $word;
$nextpage = undef;
$npages = 0;

while (!$loopout and !$philosophy) {
  if ($nextpage) {
    $url = $whost . $nextpage;
    $phrase = $nextpage;
  }
  else {
    $pages{"/wiki/$word"} = 1;
    $phrase = $word;
  }
  $phrase =~ s/_/ /g;
  print "$url\n";
  $response = $agent->request(HTTP::Request->new(GET => $url));
  if ($response->is_success) {
    $npages++;
    $booty = $response->content;
    $booty =~ s/href=\"(.*?)\((.*?)\)(.*?)\"/href=\"$1\[$2\]$3\"/g;
    $booty =~ s/\(.*?\)//g;
    $booty =~ s/<i>.*?<\/i>//g;
    $booty =~ s/.*?(?:<\/table>|<\/div>)\s+<p>//s;
    ($nextpage) = ($booty =~ /.*?<a href=\"(\/wiki.*?)\"/s);
    if ($nextpage) {
      $nextpage =~ s/\[/\(/;
      $nextpage =~ s/\]/\)/;
      if ($pages{$nextpage}) { $loopout = 1; }
      elsif ($nextpage eq "Philosophy") { $philosophy = 1; }
      else { $pages{$nextpage} = 1; sleep(3); }
    }
    else { print "No next page found in:\n$booty\n"; exit(1); }
  }
  else { print "Bad response: ", $response->status_line, "\n"; exit(1); }
}

if ($philosophy) { print "$npages pages from $word to Philosophy\n"; }
elsif ($loopout) { print "$npages pages to a loop.\n"; }

exit(0);

Logifal
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Re: 0903: "Extended Mind"

Postby Logifal » Wed May 25, 2011 6:54 pm UTC

Lode wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_software
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_program
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_software
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_program
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_software
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_program
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_software
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_program
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_software
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_program
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_software
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_program
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_software
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_program
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_software
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_program
...

When am I going to reach philosophy?

Read the alt text, it says "the first link not in parentheses".

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hofmic
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Re: 0903: "Extended Mind"

Postby hofmic » Wed May 25, 2011 6:55 pm UTC

Sadly true. Wikipedia is my brain pop.

WIMP
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Re: 0903: "Extended Mind"

Postby WIMP » Wed May 25, 2011 7:00 pm UTC

Usually get into an infinite loop at knowledge. Very promising in terms of proximity to philosophy, however.
Last edited by WIMP on Wed May 25, 2011 10:25 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

onionparadise
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Re: 0903: "Extended Mind"

Postby onionparadise » Wed May 25, 2011 7:01 pm UTC

Not all pages will go to the "Philosophy" page, but most go to a page related to philosophy in some sense. However, almost all pages I have found, including at this point mathematics, eventually reach the loop Knowledge>Facts>Information>Sequence>Study(redirects to Research)>... oh wait, nevermind. At the time of this writing someone just de-linked the word "Knowledge" on the "Research" page, meaning you now always end up in the loop between Attorney and Lawyer (neither word is in parentheses or italics). But in any case, if, once reaching philosophy, you continue, you end up at this loop, which is the same loop you reach even if you bypass philosophy. Unless someone put you in a different endless loop.

sqrdsqr
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Re: 0903: "Extended Mind"

Postby sqrdsqr » Wed May 25, 2011 7:04 pm UTC

People keep altering it to make it work/not work. Mathematics used to link to quantity, now it links to study which caused a loop-back. All this over a game? poor wikipedia...

Setsuna
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Re: 0903: "Extended Mind"

Postby Setsuna » Wed May 25, 2011 7:07 pm UTC

Actually someone fixed the "study"-link in the mathematics article. It now leads to Research -> ... -> Lawyer -> Attorney -> Laywer -> ...
Thus trapping you in a loop if you come from mathematics or science. (Also if you start at "spark plug" you're gonna be trapped.) Obviously someone tries to interfere with the higher truth of Randall :)

RhinoEngineer
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Re: 0903: "Extended Mind"

Postby RhinoEngineer » Wed May 25, 2011 7:07 pm UTC

Everytime I try this I get to the page Mathematics which part of a loop.

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jonadab
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Re: 0903: "Extended Mind"

Postby jonadab » Wed May 25, 2011 7:24 pm UTC

I believe I can prove by mathematical induction that the method explained in "trivia" will always lead to either a loop or a page with no qualifying links. Since Wikipedia has precious few pages of the latter type, loops are by far the more common outcome. However, in many cases the loop is fairly long.

Incidentally, a couple of pages have changed today with the result that "Philosophy" doesn't come up nearly as often as it used to. Philosophy itself leads to a loop that does not return to Philosophy: Philosophy - Reason - Sense - Physiology - Organ (anatomy) - Biology - Natural science - Science - Knowledge - Fact - Information - Sequence - Mathematics - Research - Knowledge (repeat). I think the critical change was on the Mathematics page (the first sentence of which seems to be currently the subject of a petty edit war that has no real impact on the meaning of the article but changes where the first non-parenthetical non-italic link points).

asdfzxc
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Re: 0903: "Extended Mind"

Postby asdfzxc » Wed May 25, 2011 7:26 pm UTC

If you don't reach Philosophy, you'll almost certainly reach the Mathematics loop.

janjan52001
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Re: 0903: "Extended Mind"

Postby janjan52001 » Wed May 25, 2011 7:28 pm UTC

I started at "job" - meaning what you do for a living. I ended up in an endless "Indo-European Language" loop. But I was very close in Greek and Latin. Damn.

underthelidar
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Re: 0903: "Extended Mind"

Postby underthelidar » Wed May 25, 2011 7:29 pm UTC

Annirak wrote:
ratfox wrote:Very soon, Wikipedia is going to kindly ask Munroe to stop writing anything related to it, because he is breaking the system.


The interesting part is that I'm not sure he is. How many of these edits actually change the meaning of the articles? The only one that I can see as being a problem is calling mathematics a science. I'm fairly convinced it's not. In fact, mathematics is far more closely related to philosophy than it is science, so having a mathematics redirect to philosophy wouldn't be so bad.


Think about his history though, and the "In Popular Culture" incident with "Wood." Speaking of... I haven't noticed the "in popular culture section for awhile now... Checking - did they remove it completely? That could probably be attributed to continued abuse from xkcd readers. That would be an example of why they might ask him to stop :) But let's hope not!

McBehrer
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Re: 0903: "Extended Mind"

Postby McBehrer » Wed May 25, 2011 7:32 pm UTC

I found a loop on car (which included "property (philosophy)"), bed (which led to the same loop), and abacus (same damn loop), and I got it to work on Perception, Sense, Doctor Who, Harry Potter, Pumpkin (film), Tornado, Tara Strong, cryptozoology, bed, My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic, xkcd, hamster, tvtropes, Germany... Yeah, it covers just about everything.

1999 was a weird one. it led to Element, and the first link was "See also: element;" the first link there was "see also: Element." They weren't technically italicized, but they were see-also links AND recursive, so if you ignore that it works, but if you count them it's a link too.

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SmoothBlade
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Re: 0903: "Extended Mind"

Postby SmoothBlade » Wed May 25, 2011 7:37 pm UTC

Provided this rule applies to any page with philosophy in its title.

Cattle - Domestication - Population - Species - Biology - Natural Science - Science - Knowledge - Fact - Information - Sequence - Mathematics - Quantity - Property (philosophy)

Property seems to be a popular one, as I discovered when I tried different words, they also, as mentioned earlier, like to go through science and math
And on a side note, once you hit mathematics your stuck in a loop from Math to quantity to property (philosophy), and back to math. Also, Honey Bunches of Oats takes you though some pages you surely did not expect to find yourself.

Moon - Earth - Planet - Orbit - Physics - Natural Science - Science - Knowledge - Fact - Information - Sequence - Mathematics - Quantity - Property (philosophy)

Honey Bunches of Oats - Cold Cereal/Breakfast Cereal - Milk - Mammary Glands - Organ (anatomy) - Biology - Natural Science - Science - Knowledge - Fact - Information - Sequence - Mathematics - Quantity - Property (philosophy)

Wikipedia - Free/Free Content - Artwork/Work of Art - Aesthetics - Philosophy


Yea, for wikipedia itself, it goes directly to the philosophy page, while the other 3 go to the Property (Philosophy) page. BUT, interestingly enough, i can go from Philosophy to Property (philosophy)


Philosophy - Rational Arguement/Reason - faculty/Sense - Physiology - Organ (anatomy) - Biology - Natural Science - Science - Knowledge - Fact - Information - Sequence - Mathematics - Quantity - Property (philosophy)


Ive been looking for other loops not yet mentioned, but i havent found one yet. I tried lawyer, and it lead to Property Philosophy, perhaps people are editing some of the loops so they can lead to philosophy, i do not know. Heres lawyer

Lawyer - Law - System - Element - Mathematics - Quantity - Property (philosophy)

I'm beginning to suspect they are doing this on purpose.
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Samik
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Re: 0903: "Extended Mind"

Postby Samik » Wed May 25, 2011 7:48 pm UTC

SmoothBlade wrote:And on a side note, once you hit mathematics your stuck in a loop from Math to quantity to property (philosophy), and back to math.

Those of you getting stuck in loops related to Mathematics, Science, Quantity, Property, etc. - these are not legitimate loops. These are the result of edit wars currently being conducted with, seemingly, the express purpose of breaking the game.

(For example, the "Quantity" page keeps having its "Property" link switched between "Property (Philosophy)" and "Property" (as in things that belong to people).)

____________


I've noticed that many of the two element natural (i.e. not the result of an edit war) loops have to do with geography.

Southern United States -> Dixie -> Southern United States
Upper Canada -> The Canadas -> Upper Canada
Soviet Union -> Constitution of the Soviet Union -> Soviet Union


Philip points out how most articles describe their topics early on by pointing out a larger class of which the thing in a member, which explains why we keep inevitably ending up at the most general topics such as "Science" and "Mathematics" and "Philosophy". This reflects more on the way we organize thoughts as human beings than it does on some underlying structure of Wikipedia.

So what do the Geography related loops say about the way we organize our thoughts?

bob443@mahaska.org
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Re: 0903: "Extended Mind"

Postby bob443@mahaska.org » Wed May 25, 2011 7:48 pm UTC

Just FYI; from 'grunge' to 'philosophy' is 25 links.


This seems to confirm that it works.

El Viejo
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Re: 0903: "Extended Mind"

Postby El Viejo » Wed May 25, 2011 7:53 pm UTC

Started with "Peggy March":

/Peggy_March
/United_States
/Federalism
/Political
/Group_decision_making
/Individuals
/Person
/Human_being
/Taxonomy
/Science
/Knowledge
/Fact
/Information
/Sequence
/Mathematics
/Quantity
/Property_(philosophy)
/Modern_philosophy
/Philosophy

Need a little bat icon for 'spooky.' Maybe this? M^M

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Scaraban
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Re: #903: Extended MInd

Postby Scaraban » Wed May 25, 2011 7:57 pm UTC

from canada wrote:w.r.t the alt-text: So now randal is stealing jokes that are not only un-funny but also completely wrong?

what happened to being a webcomic for smart people. now it's just pumping out the same random bullshit you find everywhere else (since ya know, he's blatantly ripping it off)

As for the comic itself, I love how it works for a character whose only interaction's with people are possible from behind a computer screen; looks like randal really knows his audience.

i only thing i found funny about this comic (in an ironic way you idiot) was that it reminded me of the fact that if wikipedia went down, maybe randal would actually have some time to make comics that didn't suck, since he'd be losing his primary reference source

edit:

Waladil wrote:(Plus, it begs the question: ...?)


please die in a fire you, fucking moron

Good news everyone!
We made to the 76th reply before someone flamed about the comic! I believe we should all be very proud of this accomplishment.

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BrianB
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Re: 0903: "Extended Mind"

Postby BrianB » Wed May 25, 2011 8:07 pm UTC

FYI - The spark plug folks don't seem too happy with my efforts to continue adding an XKCD reference.

TenaliRaman
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Re: 0903: "Extended Mind"

Postby TenaliRaman » Wed May 25, 2011 8:12 pm UTC

I would like to christen the alt text as the "Collatz Conjecture for Wikipedia"

-- TR

scruff23
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Re: 0903: "Extended Mind"

Postby scruff23 » Wed May 25, 2011 8:13 pm UTC

This perl script finds Knowledge as often as Philosophy... comments welcome.

http://www.multistatetech.com/~law/philosophy

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BytEfLUSh
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Re: 0903: "Extended Mind"

Postby BytEfLUSh » Wed May 25, 2011 8:14 pm UTC

Image

Image

-- Professor Dan, The Man from Earth (paraphrased)

ThoDuSt
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Re: 0903: "Extended Mind"

Postby ThoDuSt » Wed May 25, 2011 8:14 pm UTC

Started at a random page

Alfredo Volpa
Brazil
South America
Continent
Landmass
Landform
Earth Science
Science
Knowledge
Facts
Information
Finite
Infinite
Mathematics
Quantity
Property
Modern Philosophy
Philosophy

cogitoergocogito
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Re: 0903: "Extended Mind"

Postby cogitoergocogito » Wed May 25, 2011 8:17 pm UTC

If you keep going from philosophy (ignoring [i]all[i] parentheses) you eventually get to science. Therefore, the same rule will work for science and would sound much better to offer as an interesting conversational topic or to subtly prove a point.

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Samik
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Re: 0903: "Extended Mind"

Postby Samik » Wed May 25, 2011 8:19 pm UTC

Ok, we've established that loops are comparatively rare, and that most articles funnel into one of a relatively small number of convergence corridors in a relatively small number of steps.

I'm not sure just continuing to include further examples is really bringing anything to this thread at this point.

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Pfhorrest
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Re: 0903: "Extended Mind"

Postby Pfhorrest » Wed May 25, 2011 8:30 pm UTC

Samik wrote:So what do the Geography related loops say about the way we organize our thoughts?

If anything, probably that we think of geographic entities mereologically, such that composition equals identity. A geographic unit is identified either as the conjunction of the geographic units which are part of it, or as a part of some larger whole, depending on which is better known.

I'll bet if you check wikipedia for more such geography loops, you'll find that they are between one geographic unit which is less notable than any of its parts (so the most succinct way to identify it to those unfamiliar is by listing its parts, e.g. The Canadas consist of Upper Canada and Lower Canada), and its most notable part, which is in turn more notable than any of its parts (otherwise the trend would continue downward, whereas this way its description defaults to the normal form of listing the more general whole of which this is a part, e.g. Upper Canada is one of The Canadas).
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jlprice86
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Re: 0903: "Extended Mind"

Postby jlprice86 » Wed May 25, 2011 8:48 pm UTC

I tried it with "Super Mario Bros." Here is the path it took me on (very interesting to say the least):

Super Mario Bros
Platform game
Video game genres
Video game
Electronic game
Game
Play (activity)
Ethology
Zoology
Biology
Natural Science
Science
Knowledge
Fact
Information
Finite set
Mathematics
Quantity
Property (philosophy)
Modern Philosophy
PHILOSOPHY!

goerila
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Re: 0903: "Extended Mind"

Postby goerila » Wed May 25, 2011 8:53 pm UTC

I don't know if anyone mentioned this yet, or if someone will alter the articles after I say this, but on every attempt I get a path to 3 pages, one that leads to linguistics, which goes to humans etc. Or I get to mathematics or science. The linguistics page eventually goes to science (or at least it just did... hmmm) and math goes to science. After that science, for now, goes to philosophy and if you continue doing the same thing you end up back at science. So any article(in as little as I've done) ends in a loop between philosophy and science, interesting....

philip1201
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Re: 0903: "Extended Mind"

Postby philip1201 » Wed May 25, 2011 8:59 pm UTC

Samik wrote:I'm not sure just continuing to include further examples is really bringing anything to this thread at this point.

Seconded.

I think there should be tests (though certainly not all tests) about people's ability to use the internet to gather trustworthy information. Perhaps even make it a grade school subject (like in this xkcd). With ubiquitous internet available in real life, perhaps school life should reflect that more. People do constantly use this "extended mind", after all.

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BytEfLUSh
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Re: 0903: "Extended Mind"

Postby BytEfLUSh » Wed May 25, 2011 9:04 pm UTC

I just tried this on Simple English wikipedia and it didn't work too well... Five attempts - five different destinations.

Guayacanes leads to Substance (loop)
Damien Duff leads to Fact (loop)
Hysteria leads to Emotion (dead end)
Armenian Genocide leads to Earth (loop)
La Bruffière leads to Hole (loop)


Edit: Got to "Fact" one more time from "Charles August Lindbergh" article.
Edit #2: Another "Fact" from "Cache algorithm" article. I guess "Fact" is Simple English for "Philosophy". :)


Another Edit: I also tried this on Serbian Wikipedia, but 90% of random articles are about stars, galaxies, planets, etc... And they all lead to "Chemistry". Weird.
Image

Image

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