1003: "Hitler and Eve"

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addams
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Re: 1003: "Adam and Eve"

Postby addams » Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:39 pm UTC

Life in those times is fundamentally different from what modern Americans are used to. But a lot of us at least try to maintain the attitudes. Notably Republicans. When they go crazy about Welfare or foreign aid, they aren't just being cheap and greedy. They have an instinct that tells them there isn't enough to go around (even when there's far more than enough -- this year) and they need the people who aren't like them to die. Part of what gets them about abortion is they see that the birthrate of people like them is below replacement, and they don't know what to do about it. Dying out in the midst of plenty.

I read the whole thing. You guys are hard to follow, sometimes.
But, J. Thomas typed something that I think deserves repeating.
I think it was well put.

Oh. The slavery thing. What is that old saying?
It is better to be the slave of an honorable master than a free man without one.

Some such thing. I know that through human history the ideas of slave and master have expressed themselves in many ways. Often, the relationship has been like family. Good people will do good things. Bad people will do bad things.
Yes. They needed laws to set the bar for how badly a slave could be treated. Like we have laws that set the bar for how badly a family member can be treated.
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Re: 1003: "Adam and Eve"

Postby Monika » Fri Mar 09, 2012 8:25 pm UTC

addams wrote:What is that old saying?
It is better to be the slave of an honorable master than a free man without one.

If I never hear this saying again, it won't be too soon.

White people defending slavery as being at least potentially good for some slaves to some masters as long as laws regulate the treatment of slaves should just rather not say anything at all.
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Re: 1003: "Adam and Eve"

Postby Pfhorrest » Sat Mar 10, 2012 9:01 am UTC

Monika wrote:White people defending slavery as being at least potentially good for some slaves to some masters as long as laws regulate the treatment of slaves should just rather not say anything at all.

Why does it make a difference if the person saying that is white? Slavery is slavery and race only incidentally had anything to do with it in certain times and places. Was the old Greek-on-Greek slavery OK because the slaves were white too, or Jew-on-Jew because the masters weren't?
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addams
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Re: 1003: "Adam and Eve"

Postby addams » Sun Mar 11, 2012 6:34 pm UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:
Monika wrote:White people defending slavery as being at least potentially good for some slaves to some masters as long as laws regulate the treatment of slaves could just rather not spray anything at all.

Why does it make a difference if the person saying that is white? Slavery is slavery and race only incidentally had anything to do with it in certain times and places. Was the old Greek-on-Greek slavery OK because the slaves were white too, or Jew-on-Jew because the masters weren't?

Yeah. What Pfhorrest said. And;
The idea and the expression of the idea of slavery is not about color.
Were you texting in class, again?
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

Annihilist
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Re: 1003: "Adam and Eve"

Postby Annihilist » Sun Mar 18, 2012 1:56 am UTC

KShrike wrote:This crosses a line and yet...
Brings up a very good point. Just like "Adam and Steve", "Abel and Eve" is also immoral, probably even more immoral.

I stand here right now and challenge every single atheist/agnostic in this thread to prove to me that incest is moral. Go! (No, I'm not trolling)
It's neither moral not immoral. The morality of such an action cannot be defined. Calling it either moral or immoral is more immoral than the act itself. There's nothing wrong with people doing what they like with each other, as long as it's consensual.

On topic: I misread this comic entirely when I first read it. I think my interpretation was funnier.

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Re: 1003: "Adam and Eve"

Postby madaco » Sun Mar 18, 2012 4:10 am UTC

markfiend wrote:Call it a proof by contradiction:
1) The Bible contains all information necessary for perfect morality. (Asserted by many Christians.)
2) A morality which fails to condemn slavery is imperfect. (I hope we can all agree.)
3) There is no outright condemnation of slavery in the Bible.
4) Therefore the morality proscribed in the Bible is imperfect. (From 2 and 3)

QED.

that seems to be like saying(with some small things that are obvious because this isnt talking about morality)
Call it a proof by contradiction:
1)the set of axioms of Peano arithmetic contains all information necessary for showing the existence of every positive integer. (asserted by many people)
2)A set of axioms intended to cover the existence of all integers which fails to show the existence of the integer 73 is imperfect. (I hope we cal all agree.)
3)There is no axiom in Peano arithmetic that states the existence of 73
4)therefore the set of positive integers describes in Peano arithmetic is imperfect (From 2 and 3)

QED

also how does one spell Peano?

Of course I am not trying to show your proposition one, I am just showing what I deem to be something that if is not a fallacy, is at least similar to one.
(is misinterpretation a fallacy?)

anyway, yeah.
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Re: 1003: "Hitler and Eve"

Postby Fysicist09 » Sun Mar 18, 2012 4:33 am UTC

Wow. I am absolutely floored by the discussion among J Thomas et al. I fear I have little to contribute in the wake of all these mega-posts, but here goes.

The only definition of morality that I can put forth without explicitly relying on external parameters is as follows:
"Morality" is what determines how easily I sleep at night.

If I reflect on my actions of the day and feel glad, proud, or satisfied, then I sleep easily; if I feel shame, guilt, or regret, then I lay awake for a good long time until I settle on a way to rectify the situation. The conscience that controls my sleeping patterns is of course influenced by a number of external moral standards (including a Christian upbringing, a strong desire for approval from my parents and grandparents, and the Eagle Scout Pledge to name a few), but I argue that all of these combine together with internal needs such as self-preservation, self-interest, personal preferences, etc. Therefore, all of these "moral sources" exert implicit influence on my own sense of morality.

Trying to choose one moral source as inherently better than the rest strikes me as impossible because their usefulness will vary with circumstances, as J Thomas et al. have discussed at length. Fighting with other people over which one is best is therefore asinine.

Ultimately, morality comes from within. Our moral code is the manifestation of how easily we live with our actions. Then we surround ourselves with people whose moral codes are similar to ours and call them "good"; we avoid people whose moral codes oppose ours and call them "bad."

Welp...that's my midnight hour two-cents. *shrug*

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Re: 1003: "Hitler and Eve"

Postby J Thomas » Mon Mar 19, 2012 10:40 am UTC

Fysicist09 wrote:Wow. I am absolutely floored by the discussion among J Thomas et al. I fear I have little to contribute in the wake of all these mega-posts, but here goes.

The only definition of morality that I can put forth without explicitly relying on external parameters is as follows:
"Morality" is what determines how easily I sleep at night.


I like that. Instead of connecting it to abstractions, you connect it to a way that you are directly affected.

Somebody else has proposed a distinction between morality and ethics that I like. The way I'd put it in your terms is:

Ethics is what can keep you up at night feeling bad about your own opinion about what you have done.
Morality is what can keep you up at night worrying that the villagers will come after you with torches and pitchforks.

....
Trying to choose one moral source as inherently better than the rest strikes me as impossible because their usefulness will vary with circumstances, as J Thomas et al. have discussed at length. Fighting with other people over which one is best is therefore asinine.


Regardless which is inherently better, it could be in your self-interest for your morality to win. After all, you probably wouldn't have chosen it if it conflicted with your self-interest. Fighting for it could seem like fighting for yourself. Also, as suggested above morality is *all about* making other people do what you think is right. It might be asinine to fight over your personal ethics, but a morality that no one will fight for is no morality at all.

Ultimately, morality comes from within. Our moral code is the manifestation of how easily we live with our actions. Then we surround ourselves with people whose moral codes are similar to ours and call them "good"; we avoid people whose moral codes oppose ours and call them "bad."

Welp...that's my midnight hour two-cents. *shrug*


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