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1003: "Hitler and Eve"

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 5:02 am UTC
by Jared the Great
Image

Alt Text: "Abel and Steve would've been fine! I like Steve!"

This comes the day I begin reading The God Delusion. I think Randall is using some agents similar to the mind control ones in comic #966.

Re: 1003: "Adam and Eve"

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 5:04 am UTC
by CorruptUser
I hate to think of what that snake had gone through.

"It's Adam and Eve not Adder and Eve!"

Re: 1003: "Adam and Eve"

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 5:05 am UTC
by soren121
I declare this thread to be the winner, by posting in it.

I feel like I'm missing something. Does this require Biblical knowledge, or is it a cultural reference I don't know of? (I know about Adam and Eve, I'm not that out of the loop.)

Re: 1003: "Adam and Eve"

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 5:08 am UTC
by MikeStern
Eh not that funny. If it causes a huge bout of controversy, however, that'll be hilarious.

For the uninformed, Abel was one of Adam and Eve's first two sons. Apparently he had a bit of an Oedipus complex. Or did Oedipus have an Abel complex?

Re: 1003: "Adam and Eve"

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 5:09 am UTC
by CorruptUser
I prefer to think that god had a Me complex.

Re: 1003: "Adam and Eve"

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 5:10 am UTC
by Plasma Mongoose
The answer is easy, Able did it with one of his unmentioned sisters.

Re: 1003: "Adam and Eve"

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 5:14 am UTC
by Meloncov
For those who don't get it, the reference is the conservative Christian anti-gay slogan ""God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve."

Re: 1003: "Adam and Eve"

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 5:15 am UTC
by gidklio
Oedipus Rexkcd

Re: 1003: "Adam and Eve"

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 5:25 am UTC
by RebeccaRGB
I like to think that because we were all asexually-reproducing single-celled organisms before we were anything else, it doesn't really matter if you call the first two Adam and Eve, Adam and Steve, or even Madam and Eve¹.

¹ As a lesbian, that one's my favorite.

Re: 1003: "Adam and Eve"

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 5:25 am UTC
by KShrike
This crosses a line and yet...
Brings up a very good point. Just like "Adam and Steve", "Abel and Eve" is also immoral, probably even more immoral.

I stand here right now and challenge every single atheist/agnostic in this thread to prove to me that incest is moral. Go! (No, I'm not trolling)

But Randall definitely crossed a line. Incest isn't a joking matter...

Re: 1003: "Adam and Eve"

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 5:32 am UTC
by JetstreamGW
KShrike wrote:This crosses a line and yet...
Brings up a very good point. Just like "Adam and Steve", "Abel and Eve" is also immoral, probably even more immoral.

I stand here right now and challenge every single atheist in this thread to prove to me that incest is moral. Go! (No, I'm not trolling)

But Randall definitely crossed a line. Incest isn't a joking matter...


How 'bout a Deist who doesn't care what you're screwin' as long as everyone involved is a consenting adult and proper precautions are taken to not have bizarre mutant babies?

Oh, and no hiding your last comment. Anyway, it's not a joke. For the Literal Creationist outlook to function, Incest must be assumed.

Re: 1003: "Adam and Eve"

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 5:36 am UTC
by nahtanoj999
Is it bad that I first thought that this was trying to be a group theory joke?

Re: 1003: "Adam and Eve"

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 5:37 am UTC
by KShrike
oh, I feel like leaving. I just know that this will be a huge bash on Christianity.
Abandoning thread...

Re: 1003: "Adam and Eve"

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 5:38 am UTC
by beet31425
The comic was OK; the alt text made me laugh out loud. I consider the comic to be a set-up for the alt text.

Re: 1003: "Adam and Eve"

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 5:40 am UTC
by gormster
I liked the alt text, but the "Adam and Steve" thing makes me so mad that I'm having trouble enjoying it.

It's like two incredibly stupid things collided and made a kind of stupid neutron star

Re: 1003: "Adam and Eve"

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 5:41 am UTC
by gormster
KShrike wrote:oh, I feel like leaving. I just know that this will be a huge bash on Christianity.
Abandoning thread...


We sincerely care about your feelings.

Re: 1003: "Adam and Eve"

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 5:45 am UTC
by rhomboidal
Cain: "Damn it, Abel gets EVERYTHING!"

Re: 1003: "Adam and Eve"

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 5:50 am UTC
by jalohones
KShrike wrote:I stand here right now and challenge every single atheist/agnostic in this thread to prove to me that incest is moral.


Who gets to define 'moral'?

Re: 1003: "Adam and Eve"

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 5:51 am UTC
by silvermaple
For those of you who where as confused as I was, the guy in the panel is Adam.
Hopefully that clarifies things a little :)

Re: 1003: "Adam and Eve"

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 5:51 am UTC
by mnkyman663
KShrike wrote:This crosses a line and yet...
Brings up a very good point. Just like "Adam and Steve", "Abel and Eve" is also immoral, probably even more immoral.

I stand here right now and challenge every single atheist/agnostic in this thread to prove to me that incest is moral. Go! (No, I'm not trolling)

But Randall definitely crossed a line. Incest isn't a joking matter...



The burden of proof is not on the yea-sayers but instead the nay-sayers. For instance, I can say "who can prove to me that heterosexual consensual sex is moral?" and the answer is no one. Heterosexual consensual sex happens to be moral in the majority's opinion because the majority finds nothing wrong with it. I find nothing wrong with consensual family members having sex, so I find incest moral. You, on the other hand, might call it immoral, but in that case you should be prepared to defend your statement with some facts (e.g. incest is immoral because it violates this particular moral of mine, which has basis in these observed detriments to society, my personal beliefs, etc.). However, even if you can explain why you find it immoral, the task may still remain that you convince others of your opinions. This is the best way to "prove" that something is immoral.

This is the point at which the yay-sayer must either defend their view of incest as moral by overturning your points or cede their own opinion and begin to view incest as immoral. This is the logical progression which intelligent thinkers must follow in order to have a productive discussion. That being said, I believe it's your turn.

Re: 1003: "Adam and Eve"

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 5:52 am UTC
by KShrike
I'm back. Time to prove a point:
jalohones wrote:
KShrike wrote:I stand here right now and challenge every single atheist/agnostic in this thread to prove to me that incest is moral.


Who gets to define 'moral'?

Have sex with your mother. Right now.
Come back to me once you have done it, and tell me that you were brave enough to do this thing that just CAN'T POSSIBLY be immoral.

Re: 1003: "Adam and Eve"

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 5:52 am UTC
by Jared the Great
KShrike wrote:This crosses a line and yet...
Brings up a very good point. Just like "Adam and Steve", "Abel and Eve" is also immoral, probably even more immoral.

I stand here right now and challenge every single atheist/agnostic in this thread to prove to me that incest is moral. Go! (No, I'm not trolling)

But Randall definitely crossed a line. Incest isn't a joking matter...


The bible contradicts itself on the morality or lack thereof of incest. Adam and Eve had kids. Who did those kids have kids with? Their siblings. Who did those kids have kids with? Probably their siblings or cousins.
Then their second cousins, third, fourth, fifth, nth.
And for a non-biblical viewpoint on incest, we are all related via an uncountable number of common ancestors. But we don't call it incest. If you could magically see someone's ancestors, you would probably be shocked to find that you are interested in your, say, 17th cousin.

Re: 1003: "Adam and Eve"

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 5:53 am UTC
by KShrike
Jared the Great wrote:
KShrike wrote:This crosses a line and yet...
Brings up a very good point. Just like "Adam and Steve", "Abel and Eve" is also immoral, probably even more immoral.

I stand here right now and challenge every single atheist/agnostic in this thread to prove to me that incest is moral. Go! (No, I'm not trolling)

But Randall definitely crossed a line. Incest isn't a joking matter...


The bible contradicts itself on the morality or lack thereof of incest. Adam and Eve had kids. Who did those kids have kids with? Their siblings. Who did those kids have kids with? Probably their siblings or cousins.
Then their second cousins, third, fourth, fifth, nth.
And for a non-biblical viewpoint on incest, we are all related via an uncountable number of common ancestors. But we don't call it incest. If you could magically see someone's ancestors, you would probably be shocked to find that you are interested in your, say, 17th cousin.

There is a huge difference.
Refer to my recent post. (still not trolling)

Re: 1003: "Adam and Eve"

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 5:59 am UTC
by jalohones
KShrike wrote:Have sex with your mother. Right now.
Come back to me once you have done it, and tell me that you were brave enough to do this thing that just CAN'T POSSIBLY be immoral.


Or, to paraphrase, "If you won't do it right now then it can't possibly be moral."

I didn't say it is impossible for incest to be immoral, nor did I ask you to commit anything that I consider to be an offensive act. I asked a question which I consider a fair one, given that you invited a discussion of morality. Your respone of "Go have sex with your Mum!" doesn't really do much to strengthen whatever your argument actually is.

Re: 1003: "Adam and Eve"

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 6:01 am UTC
by KShrike
jalohones wrote:
KShrike wrote:Have sex with your mother. Right now.
Come back to me once you have done it, and tell me that you were brave enough to do this thing that just CAN'T POSSIBLY be immoral.


Or, to paraphrase, "If you won't do it right now then it can't possibly be moral."

I didn't say it is impossible for incest to be immoral, nor did I ask you to commit anything that I consider to be an offensive act. I asked a question which I consider a fair one, given that you invited a discussion of morality. Your respone of "Go have sex with your Mum!" doesn't really do much to strengthen whatever your argument actually is.

If having sex with your mother is offensive than it can't possibly be moral.
Better yet. Tell me WHY you would never have sex with your mother. Is it social? Is it some sort of inner moral standards? Is it because you are told not to?

Re: 1003: "Adam and Eve"

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 6:03 am UTC
by bitwiseshiftleft
... unlike Adam and Eve themselves, of whom it is written:

Oh give me a clone,
of my own flesh and bone,
with the Y-chromosome changed to X...

Re: 1003: "Adam and Eve"

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 6:04 am UTC
by KShrike
bitwiseshiftleft wrote:... unlike Adam and Eve themselves, of whom it is written:

Oh give me a clone,
of my own flesh and bone,
with the Y-chromosome changed to X...

There is a difference.
It is still God's creation.
Whereas when we clone it is not.

Re: 1003: "Adam and Eve"

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 6:06 am UTC
by kkt
I was thinking Adam was upset because someone switched from using the Los Angeles Police Dept. phonetic alphabet "Adam", "Boy", "Charles", ... to the U.S. military phonetic alphabet "Able", "Baker", "Charlie",.... But I guess not.

Re: 1003: "Adam and Eve"

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 6:10 am UTC
by Plasma Mongoose
Eve was made from Adam's rib, so you could say that Eve is his opposite-sex clone.

The only people Adam and Eve's children could have sex with is either Adam, Eve or a brother or sister; therefore incest was the only option.

Re: 1003: "Adam and Eve"

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 6:10 am UTC
by jalohones
KShrike wrote:If having sex with your mother is offensive than it can't possibly be moral.


Well, you're really trying hard to troll. I'll give it one more shot at reason before I go to the pub.

You consider it offensive for me to have sex with my mother, and therefore dared me to do it. You used my (assumed) reluctance to do so as proof that is an immoral act. You didn't question whether I would be interested in doing so, nor whether my mother would. One _really_ good reason for not having sex with my mother right now (apart from the hours it would take to travel there) is that we haven't spoken to each other in 10 years, what with how she doesn't approve of my "lifestyle choices". I'm pretty sure that she wouldn't have to sex with me. I _would_ consider raping her to be immoral, yes. But that doesn't mean I would consider it immoral for two consenting adults who are related to each other to have sex.

There are lots of things that I consider moral that I'm just not interested in doing so. Something being moral does not make it mandatory. I don't have to do something to make it moral.

Morality is a personal thing. It sounds very much as though you consider incest immoral. That's fine. Under your definition of morality then no, I can't prove incest to be moral. But under someone else's it might not be. That's why I asked my original question: who gets to define moral?

And now - it's a warm afternoon and there is cider in this world. Feel free to reply, if you have anything other than more suggestions that I go shag me mum. I'll read them later.

Re: 1003: "Adam and Eve"

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 6:13 am UTC
by Eutychus
This thread is going to run and run.

And now, so am I.

Re: 1003: "Adam and Eve"

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 6:16 am UTC
by bitwiseshiftleft
KShrike wrote:There is a difference.
It is still God's creation.
Whereas when we clone it is not.


Of course, I just couldn't resist the Asimov reference.

Also, I'm Christian, and I don't hold that part of the Bible to be literal. In defense of those who do, I'd like to point out that it's not stated by whom Adam's kids had kids. God may have created other humans as well, or may have designed them so that incest was not a problem for the first $n$ generations, or whatever.

Also also, Abel isn't recorded to have had any kids. But yeah, I get it, "Seth and Eve" doesn't sound like "Adam and Eve".

Re: 1003: "Adam and Eve"

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 6:17 am UTC
by mbklein
KShrike wrote:
jalohones wrote:
KShrike wrote:Have sex with your mother. Right now.
Come back to me once you have done it, and tell me that you were brave enough to do this thing that just CAN'T POSSIBLY be immoral.


Or, to paraphrase, "If you won't do it right now then it can't possibly be moral."

I didn't say it is impossible for incest to be immoral, nor did I ask you to commit anything that I consider to be an offensive act. I asked a question which I consider a fair one, given that you invited a discussion of morality. Your respone of "Go have sex with your Mum!" doesn't really do much to strengthen whatever your argument actually is.

If having sex with your mother is offensive than it can't possibly be moral.
Better yet. Tell me WHY you would never have sex with your mother. Is it social? Is it some sort of inner moral standards? Is it because you are told not to?

Go eat a live banana slug. Right now. If you won't do it, eating slugs must be an inherently immoral act.

Re: 1003: "Adam and Eve"

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 6:18 am UTC
by KShrike
jalohones wrote:
KShrike wrote:If having sex with your mother is offensive than it can't possibly be moral.


Well, you're really trying hard to troll. I'll give it one more shot at reason before I go to the pub.

You consider it offensive for me to have sex with my mother, and therefore dared me to do it. You used my (assumed) reluctance to do so as proof that is an immoral act. You didn't question whether I would be interested in doing so, nor whether my mother would. One _really_ good reason for not having sex with my mother right now (apart from the hours it would take to travel there) is that we haven't spoken to each other in 10 years, what with how she doesn't approve of my "lifestyle choices". I'm pretty sure that she wouldn't have to sex with me. I _would_ consider raping her to be immoral, yes. But that doesn't mean I would consider it immoral for two consenting adults who are related to each other to have sex.

There are lots of things that I consider moral that I'm just not interested in doing so. Something being moral does not make it mandatory. I don't have to do something to make it moral.

Morality is a personal thing. It sounds very much as though you consider incest immoral. That's fine. Under your definition of morality then no, I can't prove incest to be moral. But under someone else's it might not be. That's why I asked my original question: who gets to define moral?

And now - it's a warm afternoon and there is cider in this world. Feel free to reply, if you have anything other than more suggestions that I go shag me mum. I'll read them later.

I love cynics who think they are so smart, and how numerous they are on the internet. It means that it's pointless to argue with them, because they are already so twisted that they cannot possibly be reasoned with.
But seeing how twisted your worldview is, I cannot hope to win an argument with you since we hold a different sense of reality. I for one am frightened at:

jalohones wrote: One _really_ good reason for not having sex with my mother right now (apart from the hours it would take to travel there) is that we haven't spoken to each other in 10 years, what with how she doesn't approve of my "lifestyle choices". I'm pretty sure that she wouldn't have to sex with me

Which wouldn't frighten me as much as the following
jalohones wrote:But that doesn't mean I would consider it immoral for two consenting adults who are related to each other to have sex.

You cannot be serious...
No, I'm not going to stay... it's pointless to argue with you. Arguing with an idiot is foolishness.

Re: 1003: "Adam and Eve"

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 6:19 am UTC
by KShrike
mbklein wrote:
KShrike wrote:
jalohones wrote:
KShrike wrote:Have sex with your mother. Right now.
Come back to me once you have done it, and tell me that you were brave enough to do this thing that just CAN'T POSSIBLY be immoral.


Or, to paraphrase, "If you won't do it right now then it can't possibly be moral."

I didn't say it is impossible for incest to be immoral, nor did I ask you to commit anything that I consider to be an offensive act. I asked a question which I consider a fair one, given that you invited a discussion of morality. Your respone of "Go have sex with your Mum!" doesn't really do much to strengthen whatever your argument actually is.

If having sex with your mother is offensive than it can't possibly be moral.
Better yet. Tell me WHY you would never have sex with your mother. Is it social? Is it some sort of inner moral standards? Is it because you are told not to?

Go eat a live banana slug. Right now. If you won't do it, eating slugs must be an inherently immoral act.

Fallacious...

Re: 1003: "Adam and Eve"

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 6:22 am UTC
by RebeccaRGB
Ah well, at least I got one good comment in before this thread went all to hell.

Bailing now.

Re: 1003: "Adam and Eve"

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 6:23 am UTC
by fearless
Morality is linked to harm. Society proposes a set of moral codes as guidance for our behaviours so that the harm towards others can be minimized. If an action bears no harm (ie consenting adults, birth control, no-one else finds out about it) then I struggle to find a moral reason against it. Being offended has nothing to do with morals. There is no moral code that says "we shall not be offended" - to enforce that would be silly.

Re: 1003: "Adam and Eve"

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 6:30 am UTC
by mbklein
Regarding the "mutated babies" issue: The rate of birth defects among healthy, unrelated parents is around 2%. Among closely-related parents, it doubles to a whopping 4%. Given an absolute need to reproduce and a choice between two partners -- your genotypically healthy sister and a woman you're not related to carrying a fatal x-linked dominant genetic disorder, you'd have a far better chance at healthy offspring with your sister.

Hell, even Charles Darwin married his first cousin. :)

Now we pause so everyone can go shower.

Re: 1003: "Adam and Eve"

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 6:32 am UTC
by mbklein
KShrike wrote:
mbklein wrote:Go eat a live banana slug. Right now. If you won't do it, eating slugs must be an inherently immoral act.

Fallacious...

Yup. Just as fallacious as the argument that inspired it. Which is built on essentially the same premise as "If you have nothing to hide, you have no reason not to let the police search your house."

Re: 1003: "Adam and Eve"

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 6:33 am UTC
by anoni88
Randall, were you also watching Happy Endings yesterday?