1027: "Pickup Artist"

[faeastflip]

Title Text: Son, don't try to play 'make you feel bad' with the Michael Jordan of making you feel bad.

I think it's his hair that needs insulting.

[Quicksilver]

The only winning move is not to play.

[Sir_Read-a-Lot]

Talk about bad aim. BHG's girl is not to be trifled with.

[rhomboidal]

I like bathroom-stall bowling about as much as urinal-cake hockey.

[myoilu]

i was waiting for BHG to walk in with a bobcat.

[chenille]

I've noticed she's less of a cruel bastard, and more of an awesome one.

[ellbur]

I can only wonder if Randall's been reading The Last Psychiatrist. "The problem is you." Eh, maybe it is more generic.

Is the girl's choice of criticism something you'd expect to find in a pick-up artist? I don't know any myself.

[Sulayman-F]

Yay, we're venturing into PUA territory. My friend has been really getting into that game ever since reading, uh, The Game. This isn't Randall's first mention of it either.

I suppose if you're not quite understanding this Subculture, you should either watch the 2-season reality show The Pick-up Artist (which was pretty impressive), or maybe Neil Strauss shows how it works on Jessica Alba

[ConMan]

I can only wonder if Randall's been reading The Last Psychiatrist. "The problem is you." Eh, maybe it is more generic.

Is the girl's choice of criticism something you'd expect to find in a pick-up artist? I don't know any myself.

It's pretty close. From what I've seen, PUAs do tend to fall into one of two categories, the first being ones like this guy and the second being something a bit more sociopathic (a strong word, I know, but the closest I can come to describing the mindset that some of them have).

[Djehutynakht]

Okay, I give. What in the world is BHG doing in the bathroom with that bowling ball?

And I do expect him to come back and join in.

[SirMustapha]

xkcd: the sitcom

[XKCD Fan]

This is bullshit. So we are suppose to equate ANY AND ALL attempts to pick up, go out with, or otherwise "score" with a girl as misogyny against or objectification of women? Further, we are also suppose to believe that acting on these ideas is simply a mental defect in our brains completely insurmountable; ie. If you cannot get a girlfriend, its because there is something wrong with your brain?

In an ideal world you'd be able to be honest and straight with women about your intentions and eventually everything would work out. Do you want to date? You would get a simple yes/no answer. You want casual sex? Also a yes/no answer. ANY guy who has put himself out there knows this peaches and roses scenario does not exist and never will. You have to be cool. You have to be smooth. You have to pretend not to care. You have to flirt. You have to act natural at the same time. etc.

He does not realize it but the "pick-up artist" of this comic is actually the winner here. This woman he's taken an interest in has proven herself to be an utter bitch. Better to be single than to be with a stuck-up snot who believes in some sort of genetic superiority based on intellect (the foundation of said belief being completely rooted in pseudo-science).

With all due respect- actually, fuck that. Fuck you, Randall. I don't care if I get banned since I don't care to read your comic EVER again. This is too close to home. Bookmark deleted; no more recommendations.

[ntrval]

Bahahahaha

[Skid]

Your departure will be considered a great loss by the community.

[Kithplana]

Deary me. If you identify so closely with the pickup artist of the comic, it is better for us all that you not be here. However, if you don't consider tearing down a girl's self-esteem to be an acceptable way of opening or sustaining dialogue, you might read the comic a bit more closely, or seek further definition of "pickup artist" as contrasted with "one who utilizes pickup lines".

I found the comic quite funny, by the way. Of course, I've rather had my fill of manipulative people.

[ntrval]

This is bullshit. So we are suppose to equate ANY AND ALL attempts to pick up, go out with, or otherwise "score" with a girl as misogyny against or objectification of women? Further, we are also suppose to believe that acting on these ideas is simply a mental defect in our brains completely insurmountable; ie. If you cannot get a girlfriend, its because there is something wrong with your brain?

In an ideal world you'd be able to be honest and straight with women about your intentions and eventually everything would work out. Do you want to date? You would get a simple yes/no answer. You want casual sex? Also a yes/no answer. ANY guy who has put himself out there knows this peaches and roses scenario does not exist and never will. You have to be cool. You have to be smooth. You have to pretend not to care. You have to flirt. You have to act natural at the same time. etc.

He does not realize it but the "pick-up artist" of this comic is actually the winner here. This woman he's taken an interest in has proven herself to be an utter bitch. Better to be single than to be with a stuck-up snot who believes in some sort of genetic superiority based on intellect (the foundation of said belief being completely rooted in pseudo-science).

With all due respect- actually, fuck that. Fuck you, Randall. I don't care if I get banned since I don't care to read your comic EVER again. This is too close to home. Bookmark deleted; no more recommendations.

[Hermesdfo]

XKCD Fan:

*A few minutes after writing a long post about your opinions and then deleting it for being too tired:

This is a comic. The author doesn't think like you, and you will not always agree with him. If you no longer want to enjoy the fun of sharing what you have in common with other people because of the differences, go on. Hope you find a better source of entertainment, and if you come back, please think really hard about how your opinions are not the ultimate truth. Have fun.

Btw, never heard before of "The Game" (Wikipedia helped me with that) but you are not supposed to try that bullshit with BHG's girl, as someone else said before. And worse, with BHG just a few steps away. I know guys who know that and haven't even read XKCD.

[SecondTalon]

This is bullshit. So we are suppose to equate ANY AND ALL attempts to pick up, go out with, or otherwise "score" with a girl as misogyny against or objectification of women?

No, but treating women as non-human is a piece of shit move.

Bye!

[faunablues]

oh no a flounce!
seriously, can you be offended at the dig at "negging?" it's not about trying to pick up women in general (the non-BHG said to talk to them like human beings), it's about being a manipulative ass about it, like you're hunting game.

[Whitekiboko]

I just woke up and wasn't being too observant and read the alt text as Michael Jackson as opposed to Jordan. With the song Bad and the molestation thing (talk about making people feel bad), it made sense to me but I was a little shocked at how dark it was... then I reread it.

[Steve K]

This is bullshit. So we are suppose to equate ANY AND ALL attempts to pick up, go out with, or otherwise "score" with a girl as misogyny against or objectification of women?

And the straw man shows up on page 1! No, we're supposed to equate any treatment of other human beings as trophies to win or lose solely because of their gender as misogyny or objectification of women (note: not misogyny against women -- that's redundant.)

Further, we are also suppose to believe that acting on these ideas is simply a mental defect in our brains completely insurmountable; ie. If you cannot get a girlfriend, its because there is something wrong with your brain?

I don't think we can take BHGirl's statement as a statement of fact, or of Randall's personal opinion. It's simply an example of the well-known comic device of the character who knows just the right thing to say to destroy another character's psyche. You'd do well to remember that this is a fiction.

In an ideal world you'd be able to be honest and straight with women about your intentions and eventually everything would work out. Do you want to date? You would get a simple yes/no answer. You want casual sex? Also a yes/no answer. ANY guy who has put himself out there knows this peaches and roses scenario does not exist and never will. You have to be cool. You have to be smooth. You have to pretend not to care. You have to flirt. You have to act natural at the same time. etc.

Odd. Your "peaches and roses" scenario has always worked for me.

[lesmana]

That is really not a flattering depiction of Wil Wheaton.

[VectorZero]

I just woke up and wasn't being too observant and read the alt text as Michael Jackson as opposed to Jordan. With the song Bad and the molestation thing (talk about making people feel bad), it made sense to me but I was a little shocked at how dark it was... then I reread it.

Yeah, same thing, adjusted for timezones.

[CoryG]

This is bullshit. So we are suppose to equate ANY AND ALL attempts to pick up, go out with, or otherwise "score" with a girl as misogyny against or objectification of women? Further, we are also suppose to believe that acting on these ideas is simply a mental defect in our brains completely insurmountable; ie. If you cannot get a girlfriend, its because there is something wrong with your brain?

In an ideal world you'd be able to be honest and straight with women about your intentions and eventually everything would work out. Do you want to date? You would get a simple yes/no answer. You want casual sex? Also a yes/no answer. ANY guy who has put himself out there knows this peaches and roses scenario does not exist and never will. You have to be cool. You have to be smooth. You have to pretend not to care. You have to flirt. You have to act natural at the same time. etc.

He does not realize it but the "pick-up artist" of this comic is actually the winner here. This woman he's taken an interest in has proven herself to be an utter bitch. Better to be single than to be with a stuck-up snot who believes in some sort of genetic superiority based on intellect (the foundation of said belief being completely rooted in pseudo-science).

With all due respect- actually, fuck that. Fuck you, Randall. I don't care if I get banned since I don't care to read your comic EVER again. This is too close to home. Bookmark deleted; no more recommendations.

lmfao, I logged in just to laugh at this and point out a couple (hopefully obvious) points:
A) Intellect is what defines us as Human - if you have an issue with it then by all means, go all the way, get a lobotomy today before you waste any more of your life.
B) We all know Women are inferior in intellectual regards (see http://xkcd.com/896/ - that's a pretty complete list), but you don't need to point it out to someone you are dating and you certainly don't need to say anything to make the average American woman become _more_ of a slut - if you can't get laid in America just give up, slash your wrists.

[Himself]

Okay, I give. What in the world is BHG doing in the bathroom with that bowling ball?

And I do expect him to come back and join in.

Considering that he's BHG, probably breaking peoples' legs.

[Spill Wooner]

In an ideal world you'd be able to be honest and straight with women about your intentions and eventually everything would work out. Do you want to date? You would get a simple yes/no answer. You want casual sex? Also a yes/no answer. ANY guy who has put himself out there knows this peaches and roses scenario does not exist and never will. You have to be cool. You have to be smooth. You have to pretend not to care. You have to flirt. You have to act natural at the same time. etc.

Odd. Your "peaches and roses" scenario has always worked for me.

Next time, try asking a girl in an elevator.

And call me crazy, but advertisers try to dig at people's self-esteem all the time. It's how you prepare them for your pitch, that what you're selling will make them feel better. I don't see how acknowledging this human truth is somehow horrible when selling oneself. (I.E. dating.)

But then, I'm always baffled at how often people cry misogyny when people point out that girls are not exempt from universal human flaws.

[Deza]

The girls words really hit home. I'm going to quietly sob alone now....

[Derosian]

This is the first time I've ever read an XKCD and felt bad about it. Not because of the PUA bit, but because of what she says and how it feels like she is talking to me. The problem is me, but how do I fix me, if trying to fix me isn't going to work? Is it pointless to even try and I should just give up? I just don't know anymore.

[pbnjstowell]

I like BHG's girlfriend.

And Noodly-hair is an ass. He totally deserved it... and I think that's the point.

[ArynChris]

Doing a tl;dr with responses, so I don't know if anybody else got this, but that second to last panel. In a backhanded way, it's actually pretty motivational.
Under these conditions:
a. Person who tries to be self-aware and make decisions based on that self-awareness
b. Person who recognizes that other people may be more aware of one's self than one, no matter how hard one tries, and is willing to listen to the evaluation of others for that reason
c. Person who seriously does that, just bouncing from one "solution" to the other when it's really just their own self all the way
d. Person is actually able to change who they are when faced with this information

That happens like, not very often though. From where I sit.
But it could totally work for someone if they've got conditions a-d.

[Ulc]

And call me crazy, but advertisers try to dig at people's self-esteem all the time. It's how you prepare them for your pitch, that what you're selling will make them feel better. I don't see how acknowledging this human truth is somehow horrible when selling oneself. (I.E. dating.)

To be entirely honest, i don't think advertisers are a useful standard of ethical behaviour.

[babble]

XKCD Fan:
Btw, never heard before of "The Game" (Wikipedia helped me with that) but you are not supposed to try that bullshit with BHG's girl, as someone else said before. And worse, with BHG just a few steps away. I know guys who know that and haven't even read XKCD.

careful now. you make it sound like a/ this girl 'belongs' to BHG b/ that it's OK to try this bullshit with a girl who doesn't 'belong' to a man c/ that the girl needs her boyfriend close to defend her... etc.

[TheGrammarBolshevik]

It's how you prepare them for your pitch, that what you're selling will make them feel better. I don't see how acknowledging this human truth is somehow horrible when selling oneself.

It's a fact that people are more inclined to give you money when you're threatening them with pointy and/or explosive chunks of metal. Do you see how "acknowledging this human truth" is different from exploiting this human truth by using it to try to circumvent people's freedom of choice?

[Atticus]

I get hating pickup artists, but pulling elitist crap is in poor taste. By definition the average reader will be average, and likely to be that way for the rest of their life. There's nothing wrong with that at all. Also does Randall think males are the only ones who read this comic and will feel bad about themselves? Perhaps it's meta, and the comic itself is "negging"

[Protector1]

Is anyone else reminded of the night club scene in Attack of the Clones?
"Do ya wanna buy some death sticks?"
"you don't want to sell me death sticks"
"I... don't want to sell you death sticks"
"You want to go home and re-think your life"
"I want to go home and rethink my life"

Except instead of a noble jedi hoping for rehabilitation, this lost soul is faced with redicule.

Just me? ok that's fine.

[eightbitman]

Hey guys. Friendly advocate of the subject matter here. Feel free to skip over what I say if the idea of someone benifiting from this horse shit turns you off(and yes it is all horse shit, more on that later).

People outside of the seduction community's obsession with "negs" has become more fascinating to me as time has gone by. I realize now it's a great literary device for showing a certian kind of character weakness, but as a living breathing human being who isn't getting laid that isn't important to someone trying to fix their extended stay on this planet as a virgin. Going out and trying this garbage works because it reveals to you very quickly how silly you're acting. I could think of no better way to get one of these guys to stop being an obnoxious jerk than to have them make an ass of themselves several hundred times in a weekend. Some attractive young men will even accept money to accompany you on this journey.

A personal anecdote: I used to take the mocking of negs as an insult to my ego because I, like many people who have studied that stuff, had low self esteem and had trouble believing that a girl would ever be interested in me at all. I thought I needed trickses because it was so hard for me to concieve of someone as awful as me being attractive to the opposite sex. This is usually the case for people who study this stuff. So they start out trying to protect their ego while trying to connect honestly to another person. This is where the entire absurd system of PUA comes from. So people use it, and for some it works. It failed miserably for me at every turn, BUT it did something important. It distracted me from my intense self hatred, and got me in the habit of thinking less and enjoying the basic, obvious excitement of talking to a new, attractive girl. He got shot down that time, and for now he's decided to continue indulging in that boring existential crisis that has kept him in his state of ineptitude, but thanks to BHGirl, he's been encouraged not to bother! Fact is, he still wants to get his pencil wet, so he'll keep trying. I say more power to him, everybody deserves some lovin, right?

[Pfhorrest]

Further, we are also suppose to believe that acting on these ideas is simply a mental defect in our brains completely insurmountable; ie. If you cannot get a girlfriend, its because there is something wrong with your brain?

I don't think her counter-"negging" was about romantic success, or about pickup artists in particular. It was just a tactical nuke of self-esteem-lowering commentary in response to his opening volley. He implies she has trouble keeping her figure. She implies that he has trouble making anything worthwhile out of his sorry excuse for a life.

This woman he's taken an interest in has proven herself to be an utter bitch. Better to be single than to be with a stuck-up snot

Better to be single than in an adversarial relationship of any kind. If you have to lie or manipulate someone to get or keep their affections, then they are not true affections, and where is the value of that... unless you're only interested in them for the use of their body and don't care about their feelings, in which case you're objectifying them and an unethical bastard. (Not only sexual objectification is unethical; the core of ethical intention is in recognizing other people as moral agents with subjective concerns as valid as your own: "Act in such a way that you treat humanity, whether in your own person or in the person of any other, never merely as a means to an end, but always at the same time as an end." I think Abraham Lincoln said that</Dylan>).

Learn that lesson -- that the only people worth being with are the people who honestly want to be with you -- and you are no longer a "pickup artist". That doesn't mean that there is no packaging involved in "selling yourself", however:

In an ideal world you'd be able to be honest and straight with women about your intentions and eventually everything would work out. Do you want to date? You would get a simple yes/no answer. You want casual sex? Also a yes/no answer. ANY guy who has put himself out there knows this peaches and roses scenario does not exist and never will. You have to be cool. You have to be smooth. You have to pretend not to care. You have to flirt. You have to act natural at the same time. etc.

And call me crazy, but advertisers try to dig at people's self-esteem all the time. It's how you prepare them for your pitch, that what you're selling will make them feel better. I don't see how acknowledging this human truth is somehow horrible when selling oneself. (I.E. dating.)

To be entirely honest, i don't think advertisers are a useful standard of ethical behaviour.

Dating does involve "selling yourself", sure. So does any kind of relationship, be it personal or professional (e.g. employment, as either employer or employee). In order to establish it, you need to catch the other person's attention, and highlight the things that they might like about you, before they notice things they might dislike about you and dismiss you without giving you a chance. (They are still going to notice those things eventually, so you can't hide it completely, but you need to keep their attention at least long enough for them to notice the good stuff too). The psychological tools used by advertisers can be put to good use. But, like all tools, there are ways that they can be abused as well. Many advertisers, as pointed out above, do abuse them, as do "pickup artists"; but they do not have to be abused to be used.

For an analogy: I am a graphic and web designer for a living. A lot of my work involves taking a document of some kind, making it look pretty and be easy to read, and directing the reader's attention to the more important parts (the parts the person who wrote the document wants them to notice most) first. All of that can be done irrespective of the content of the document. There can be a big attention-getting title and tagline with a nice photo of the product and well-set type in an easy-to-read font face and size and some bullet points outlining the most important bits... and those most important bits might either be reasons you suck, followed by the claim that the product will make you a worthwhile human being, or reasons why the product is awesome, followed by an offer to provide it to you on reasonable terms.

For another analogy... well, less an analogy than an abstraction: Making a good persuasive argument -- and any sales pitch, including a job application or a romantic pickup, is a kind of persuasive argument -- requires skill at both logic and rhetoric. Logic is about making sure that the content of your argument is correct. If your logic is bad, then nobody can really be honestly persuaded by your argument; at best, they can be mislead by it, manipulated by it, but if they really understood it, they would not buy it, and any persuasive force it has relies on that misunderstanding. Rhetoric is about making sure your argument is palatably delivered. The most sound logical argument in the universe will be completely unpersuasive if you start off by so offending your audience that they stop listening any further. You need to deliver that argument in a way that will at least convince them to hear you out, and listen to your reason and evidence. You could use that rhetoric to "convince" them of something in and of its own, sure, but that would be that kind of empty victory by virtue of not being properly understood, again. Convincing someone of what they thought you were saying, while obscuring what you were really saying, is not the same thing as convincing someone of what you were saying.

"You have to be cool. You have to be smooth." Yes, these show you are even-tempered, a reason to like you. Who is more enjoyable to be around, someone constantly angry or sad, or someone calm and happy? Sure, everyone does get angry and sad sometimes, but if that's the first thing they see of you they may dismiss you out of hand before ever seeing your good side.

"You have to pretend not to care." No, you have to not look desperate, because that's a reason not to like you. Who is more enjoyable to be around, someone who wants something from you, or someone offering something to you? (Unless they in turn are looking to take advantage of you, and want to be in a power position there, but then why would you want to be in such a relationship?) Who is more likely to get a good job: someone begging to be hired pretty please because they need the money really bad, or someone confidently offering their professional services in a mutually beneficial business arrangement?

"You have to flirt." Yes, you have to show that you are interested. Who is more likely to get hired, someone who applies to open positions or someone who just waits for their resume to be noticed? Conversely, who is more likely to fill their open position, someone who advertises it or someone who just waits for the right person to apply? Either can happen, but those putting themselves out there have a better chance than those who aren't.

"You have to act natural at the same time." Yes, because -- and this is the big one -- people don't like being deceived and manipulated. If you're acting in an obviously affected way, then they will pick up on the fact that they are being deceived or manipulated. Of course nervousness, or overcompensation for nervousness, can look suspiciously deceptive or manipulative even when it's not, so "acting natural" is still a skill to learn even when you are not being deceptive or manipulative. But the first step toward acting natural is (for desperate lack of a better phrase) being natural. Being yourself; not deceiving, not manipulating.

If they don't like you for who you are, then they don't like you, and any affection you may get from them will go away when they inevitably find out who you really are. And worse still: it never really existed in the first place. They liked somebody they mistakenly thought you were, or worse, they saw you for what you are but were themselves so desperate (possibly due to your "negging") that they didn't think they could do any better. Do you really want to be "he's all I could get"? Does that make you feel proud?

If they don't like the real you because of some problem with the real you, then work on improving yourself. Easier said than done, believe me I know, but being a better person should be higher priority in that case than tricking people into thinking you're better than you are, or that you're the best they could get. And if they don't like you because they are unable to see how awesome you really are... then that's their problem, and you deserve better.

Or, maybe you can work on showing them how awesome you really are, without deceiving them into thinking you're more awesome than you are, or manipulating them into thinking they deserve less awesomeness than they do.

[mulnin]

This is the first time I've ever read an XKCD and felt bad about it. Not because of the PUA bit, but because of what she says and how it feels like she is talking to me. The problem is me, but how do I fix me, if trying to fix me isn't going to work? Is it pointless to even try and I should just give up? I just don't know anymore.

There is no "epiphany that can turn your life around". There are many possible series of decisions you can make to incrementally improve your life, perhaps even to a point where you may achieve your goals.

Even if there was such an epiphany, it wouldn't work to simply think it. Your habits wont automatically change just because one of your thoughts has deemed them irrational.

[Le Vagabond]

beauty of this one is that it can be read at so many levels it's almost staggering...
and as such, it can and will spark controversy, anger, denial, some attemps at psychology and reverse-psychology.
eventually some people who should re-think their lives will claim having "understood" it.

well done Randall, this is why I read xkcd

[Al-pocalypse]

Okay, I give. What in the world is BHG doing in the bathroom with that bowling ball?

Toilets are very vulnerable to sudden impacts from hard/heavy/dense objects, ie. Hammer, bowling ball, XKCD Fan's head. Therefore a heavy enough bowling-ball rolled down a line of toilets should break most of them causing a lot of water, sewage and people (who were sat on the toilets) to be spilt onto the floor.