1053: “Ten Thousand”

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1053: “Ten Thousand”

Postby Qaanol » Wed May 09, 2012 4:50 am UTC

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http://xkcd.com/1053/

Title: Saying 'what kind of an idiot doesn't know about the Yellowstone supervolcano' is so much more boring than telling someone about the Yellowstone supervolcano for the first time.

Well it’s back up two days later.
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Re: 1053: “Ten Thousand”

Postby CosmicLuck » Wed May 09, 2012 4:54 am UTC

I assume he's going to tell her to put the mentos in her mouth and drink the coke. Because that's the most fun of all

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Re: 1053: “Ten Thousand”

Postby bitwiseshiftleft » Wed May 09, 2012 5:11 am UTC

Seems like a missed opportunity to use a ‱ sign.

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Re: 1053: “Ten Thousand”

Postby notgm » Wed May 09, 2012 5:15 am UTC

i seem to have lost my sense of humor...i highly dislike the pompousness of this particular joke.

meh.

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Re: 1053: “Ten Thousand”

Postby Quicksilver » Wed May 09, 2012 5:24 am UTC

I wish I could do this for seagulls and Panadol.

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Re: 1053: “Ten Thousand”

Postby lemmings » Wed May 09, 2012 5:27 am UTC

notgm wrote:i seem to have lost my sense of humor...i highly dislike the pompousness of this particular joke.

meh.

I don't think that word means what you think it means.
^That would be pompousness.

Doing this isn't: "You don't know about _____? Awesome, let me show you!"
Last edited by lemmings on Wed May 09, 2012 5:29 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 1053: “Ten Thousand”

Postby buddy431 » Wed May 09, 2012 5:28 am UTC

Being able to recognize and say "I don't know" is one of the things most lacking in people. We're afraid of the reactions we'll get out of other people. We believe that we're experts in our fields, so we must know what is happening. We like to believe that any answer, even an incorrect one, is better than no answer.

We should not condemn people who are smart enough to recognize what they don't know, but rather congratulate them for being one of the few who do. I heartily recommend The Black Swan to anyone who is interested.

I know this is only tangentially related, but I thought it might be a good time to get on my soapbox.
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Re: 1053: “Ten Thousand”

Postby Himself » Wed May 09, 2012 5:43 am UTC

Why 30 at 100% though?
Though I suppose it gets a bit more complicated the less people use the Internet.
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Re: 1053: “Ten Thousand”

Postby Tzfanya » Wed May 09, 2012 6:04 am UTC

*This* is exactly why I am a teacher. Thanks, Randall - you've put a big smile on my face just before I head into school.

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Re: 1053: “Ten Thousand”

Postby rdm_box » Wed May 09, 2012 6:12 am UTC

Let's see if it disappears again after. 10000 unique views. If so, we might be doing this for a while.
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Re: 1053: “Ten Thousand”

Postby GregSucks » Wed May 09, 2012 6:14 am UTC

I feel dumb: How, mathematically, does 10,000 come in?

Also, what is the "‱ sign" that bitwiseshiftleft refers to?

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Re: 1053: “Ten Thousand”

Postby Spinebag » Wed May 09, 2012 6:15 am UTC

Tzfanya wrote:*This* is exactly why I am a teacher. Thanks, Randall - you've put a big smile on my face just before I head into school.


I couldn't agree more. I wish that I could say I'm in it to make the world a better place, but I'm too selfish for that. I just love being there when someone sees or realizes something awesome for the first time.

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Re: 1053: “Ten Thousand”

Postby ryzvonusef (1151717) » Wed May 09, 2012 6:49 am UTC

GregSucks wrote:Also, what is the "‱ sign" that bitwiseshiftleft refers to?

I believe it's the mathematical notation for "part per ten thousand"

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Re: 1053: “Ten Thousand”

Postby noregsson » Wed May 09, 2012 7:06 am UTC

ryzvonusef (1151717) wrote:
GregSucks wrote:Also, what is the "‱ sign" that bitwiseshiftleft refers to?

I believe it's the mathematical notation for "part per ten thousand"


Commonly known as a "permyriad" (less commonly as a "basis point".)

‰ is the "per mil" or "permille". One part per thousand.

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Re: 1053: “Ten Thousand”

Postby Pfhorrest » Wed May 09, 2012 7:15 am UTC

buddy431 wrote:Being able to recognize and say "I don't know" is one of the things most lacking in people. We're afraid of the reactions we'll get out of other people. We believe that we're experts in our fields, so we must know what is happening. We like to believe that any answer, even an incorrect one, is better than no answer.

One of the saddest things I was forced to learn in becoming a "productive member of society" is that this kind of healthy attitude is bad for your career, at least if you are being hired for a position based on your knowledge or expertise. I used to be completely honest about what I could or could not do and enthusiastic about figuring out how to do things I didn't yet know: "can you do this?" was always answered with either "easy!", "I think so", or "not yet, but I'll figure it out". Unfortunately it seems in much of the business world the only acceptable answer is "yes" -- and then you get to figure out behind their backs whether you can really live up to your possibly-unrealistic promise. Getting to see how other people operate from behind the scenes, it seems the whole world works that way: sell a product first, figure out how to deliver it later. That feels dishonest to me, but say anything less certain than a straight "yes" and you never get the opportunities to find out how, and so can never give an honest "yes".

I'm fortunate enough to be currently working a job for someone more than willing to teach me things I admitted to not knowing at the interview (things I didn't know where to begin, and so wouldn't dare offer even an uncertain "yes"). But the expectation of a harsh "I know this already"/"I'm worthless" dichotomy has been ingrained into me so hard that I spent the first few months wondering what the hell I was getting paid for -- "I'm being paid to learn a new skill! WTF? How does this work? They must be disappointed that I'm taking this long just to get up to speed". Now I can do a lot of work on my own and spare the boss time to do other things, so I can see the payoff for him, and figured that was the plan even when I was new, but couldn't believe it in my heart. But even now, when I come across something challenging and am faced with the choice between spending lots of time figuring it out on my own or just asking someone who knows, though I know it would be more efficient and thus the more intelligent thing to do, I still fear in my heart that if I choose the latter someone will think if not say "What am I paying you for? You should know this already."
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Re: 1053: “Ten Thousand”

Postby BlitzGirl » Wed May 09, 2012 7:20 am UTC

noregsson wrote:
ryzvonusef (1151717) wrote:
GregSucks wrote:Also, what is the "‱ sign" that bitwiseshiftleft refers to?

I believe it's the mathematical notation for "part per ten thousand"


Commonly known as a "permyriad" (less commonly as a "basis point".)

‰ is the "per mil" or "permille". One part per thousand.

Well, I guess I learned something new today :D
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Re: 1053: “Ten Thousand”

Postby Eternal Density » Wed May 09, 2012 7:32 am UTC

Wait, there are people who don't know about ‱?
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Re: 1053: “Ten Thousand”

Postby J L » Wed May 09, 2012 7:38 am UTC

That's the kind of attitude I like so much about xkcd. Sharing whatever cool stuff you found out is just fun, and probably how society should work.

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Re: 1053: “Ten Thousand”

Postby Sandor » Wed May 09, 2012 7:56 am UTC

GregSucks wrote:I feel dumb: How, mathematically, does 10,000 come in?

It's just the number of births per day in the US (rounded down a bit from 4,000,000 per year / 365). The time period of 30 years is irrelevant to the calculation. You get the same result for whatever you assume to be the age by which everybody has learnt those facts that "everybody knows".
Last edited by Sandor on Wed May 09, 2012 8:04 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 1053: “Ten Thousand”

Postby abehrens » Wed May 09, 2012 7:59 am UTC

What, you only just now figured out that every day 10,000 people hear "common knowledge" for the first time? I mean, like, everybody knows that.

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Re: 1053: “Ten Thousand”

Postby da Doctah » Wed May 09, 2012 8:02 am UTC

abehrens wrote:What, you only just now figured out that every day 10,000 people hear "common knowledge" for the first time? I mean, like, everybody knows that.

They do?

Gee, you learn something new every day.

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Re: 1053: “Ten Thousand”

Postby Thirsting » Wed May 09, 2012 8:15 am UTC

Reading XKCD just keeps making me a better and better person by illuminating and thus giving a chance to get rid of dickish behaviour patterns I've never noticed before in myself.

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Re: 1053: “Ten Thousand”

Postby Steve the Pocket » Wed May 09, 2012 8:25 am UTC

This comic reminded me of the Team Fortress 2 mapping forum I'm on. Everyone else seems to have gotten tired of answering the same standard questions; I enjoy showing newbies the ropes. (In fact, doing that probably accounts for about half my postcount.)
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Re: 1053: “Ten Thousand”

Postby legend » Wed May 09, 2012 8:34 am UTC

I totally agree with the overall message of the comic, but imo the argument is a bit goofy. It's completely ignoring the fact that sometimes nine out of those ten thousand are <5 years old.

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Re: 1053: “Ten Thousand”

Postby babble » Wed May 09, 2012 8:36 am UTC

sharing cool stuff like the value of literature & history? I am on board with that. thank goodness xkcd takes the view that all knowledge is valuable and that describing college courses' worth in terms of how good they are as job training and how 'useful' they are and nothing more would be a terrible travesty and oh wait.

I can see this is meant to convey wide eyed wonder at the world and joy in the sharing of information. for me, the tone is too patronising for that to really work as a reading though. There's something about the 'let me show you, little lady' about the character. An edit to the writing would've helped, tone of voice is not xkcd's strong point.

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Re: 1053: “Ten Thousand”

Postby linchung » Wed May 09, 2012 8:53 am UTC

I just asked myself, how many just heard of the yellwostone supervulcano for the first time :D

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Re: 1053: “Ten Thousand”

Postby AvatarIII » Wed May 09, 2012 9:12 am UTC

yawn, this comic is sooooo Monday the 7th, where's my Wednesday the 9th comic? :lol:

seriously though, this comic is all right, but I read it 2 days ago :(

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Re: 1053: “Ten Thousand”

Postby Technical Ben » Wed May 09, 2012 9:15 am UTC

buddy431 wrote:Being able to recognize and say "I don't know" is one of the things most lacking in people. We're afraid of the reactions we'll get out of other people. We believe that we're experts in our fields, so we must know what is happening. We like to believe that any answer, even an incorrect one, is better than no answer.

We should not condemn people who are smart enough to recognize what they don't know, but rather congratulate them for being one of the few who do. I heartily recommend The Black Swan to anyone who is interested.

I know this is only tangentially related, but I thought it might be a good time to get on my soapbox.


Also many people are sadly truly scared of asking because of the types of reactions they got in the past. This comes from both sides of the coin. Those who do not know the answer when asked may give an angry reply to hide the fact. Or those who do know may give an angry reply because they think the lack of understanding is the fault of the other person.

It's great when you have teachers at school who actually answer the questions. Even the silly ones, but teach you how to ask better questions or how to find the answers.
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Re: 1053: “Ten Thousand”

Postby mconor » Wed May 09, 2012 9:20 am UTC

babble wrote:sharing cool stuff like the value of literature & history? I am on board with that. thank goodness xkcd takes the view that all knowledge is valuable and that describing college courses' worth in terms of how good they are as job training and how 'useful' they are and nothing more would be a terrible travesty and oh wait.

I can see this is meant to convey wide eyed wonder at the world and joy in the sharing of information. for me, the tone is too patronising for that to really work as a reading though. There's something about the 'let me show you, little lady' about the character. An edit to the writing would've helped, tone of voice is not xkcd's strong point.


patronising? seriously? I dunno how you read the comic, but I imagined it as two friends walking down the street, shooting the shit, when the guy mentions 'the coke and mentos thing' and the conversation happens. As in, 'I've got something so cool to show you!' It's not implying he knows any more about the world than she does, just that he knows about 'the coke and mentos thing'.

and I think the college majors comic was about a couple lists that have been floating around the internet lately that list college majors in terms of their usefulness in getting a job after graduation, which are completely useless to anyone reading them, because there will be times when they hate school no matter what field they're studying at the time.

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Re: 1053: “Ten Thousand”

Postby Yosarian2 » Wed May 09, 2012 9:31 am UTC

legend wrote:I totally agree with the overall message of the comic, but imo the argument is a bit goofy. It's completely ignoring the fact that sometimes nine out of those ten thousand are <5 years old.


Eh, not necessarily.

If there's one thing I've figured out as a teacher, it's that everyone, no matter how smart, seems to have random weird gaps in their knowledge, things that you would assume everyone knows but they don't. And people rarely realize where their own gaps are until they trip over them, either. It's probably just a natural result of how much information there is floating around that we're all supposed to know, and how hard it is to keep it all straight. So I learned to stop being surprised when a high-school student (or an adult my age) doesn't know how income taxes work, or that Canada is a country, or that the civil war came before world war I and world war II, or how fractions work. Don't judge, because odds are there are equally weird gaps in your own knowledge.

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Re: 1053: “Ten Thousand”

Postby Lewton » Wed May 09, 2012 9:37 am UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:
buddy431 wrote:Being able to recognize and say "I don't know" is one of the things most lacking in people. We're afraid of the reactions we'll get out of other people. We believe that we're experts in our fields, so we must know what is happening. We like to believe that any answer, even an incorrect one, is better than no answer.

One of the saddest things I was forced to learn in becoming a "productive member of society" is that this kind of healthy attitude is bad for your career


I disagree. Bad work environments are bad for your career.. You worked at a shitty place where shitty attitudes were encouraged. You were unlucky! It happens. Taking this to mean that being honest is a bad career move in general isn't the right reaction

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Re: 1053: “Ten Thousand”

Postby Pazuzu » Wed May 09, 2012 9:44 am UTC

So, I've actually waited for this comic to ask: What is (up with the) Yellowstone supervolcano then? I've never heard of it.

Yeah, I could check wikipedia, but in the spirit of the comic, I figured I'd ask this time just so someone could get the joy of teaching me something new.

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Re: 1053: “Ten Thousand”

Postby Pfhorrest » Wed May 09, 2012 9:53 am UTC

Pazuzu wrote:So, I've actually waited for this comic to ask: What is (up with the) Yellowstone supervolcano then? I've never heard of it.

Short and probably inaccurate version: the bulk of Yellowstone National Park is actually the caldera of a giant, dormant-ish volcano. Hence all the hot water shooting up out of the ground, laced with sulfer and such. And some day it will erupt and kill us all.

That last part is probably hyperbole. Probably.
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Re: 1053: “Ten Thousand”

Postby madjo » Wed May 09, 2012 9:53 am UTC

buddy431 wrote:Being able to recognize and say "I don't know" is one of the things most lacking in people. We're afraid of the reactions we'll get out of other people. We believe that we're experts in our fields, so we must know what is happening. We like to believe that any answer, even an incorrect one, is better than no answer.


But the Bridge keeper will throw me off the Bridge of Death if I say "I don't know".
:)

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Re: 1053: “Ten Thousand”

Postby legend » Wed May 09, 2012 10:12 am UTC

Yosarian2 wrote:Eh, not necessarily.

If there's one thing I've figured out as a teacher, it's that everyone, no matter how smart, seems to have random weird gaps in their knowledge, things that you would assume everyone knows but they don't. And people rarely realize where their own gaps are until they trip over them, either. It's probably just a natural result of how much information there is floating around that we're all supposed to know, and how hard it is to keep it all straight. So I learned to stop being surprised when a high-school student (or an adult my age) doesn't know how income taxes work, or that Canada is a country, or that the civil war came before world war I and world war II, or how fractions work. Don't judge, because odds are there are equally weird gaps in your own knowledge.


I know that there are many "common knowledge" things I don't know and I know there are probably much more things I don't even know that I don't know. I'm also not expecting from anyone else to have no knowledge gaps.
I was only questioning the argument used in the comic. It basically says that because in the US there are 10k births per day, 10k people learn what Canada is every day. That's technically true, but I guess the amount of adult people learning what Canada is every day is a few orders of magnitude lower.

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Re: 1053: “Ten Thousand”

Postby Various Varieties » Wed May 09, 2012 10:17 am UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:I'm fortunate enough to be currently working a job for someone more than willing to teach me things I admitted to not knowing at the interview (things I didn't know where to begin, and so wouldn't dare offer even an uncertain "yes"). But the expectation of a harsh "I know this already"/"I'm worthless" dichotomy has been ingrained into me so hard that I spent the first few months wondering what the hell I was getting paid for -- "I'm being paid to learn a new skill! WTF? How does this work? They must be disappointed that I'm taking this long just to get up to speed".


Someone mentioned TF2 mapping earlier. Well apparently people working at Valve experience the bold bit of your comment all the time:

If most of the value is now in the initial creative act, there’s little benefit to traditional hierarchical organization that’s designed to deliver the same thing over and over, making only incremental changes over time. What matters is being first and bootstrapping your product into a positive feedback spiral with a constant stream of creative innovation. Hierarchical management doesn’t help with that, because it bottlenecks innovation through the people at the top of the hierarchy, and there’s no reason to expect that those people would be particularly creative about coming up with new products that are dramatically different from existing ones – quite the opposite, in fact. So Valve was designed as a company that would attract the sort of people capable of taking the initial creative step, leave them free to do creative work, and make them want to stay. Consequently, Valve has no formal management or hierarchy at all.

Now, I can tell you that, deep down, you don’t really believe that last sentence. I certainly didn’t when I first heard it. How could a 300-person company not have any formal management? My observation is that it takes new hires about six months before they fully accept that no one is going to tell them what to do, that no manager is going to give them a review, that there is no such thing as a promotion or a job title or even a fixed role (although there are generous raises and bonuses based on value to the company, as assessed by peers).

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Re: 1053: “Ten Thousand”

Postby chap » Wed May 09, 2012 10:32 am UTC

Rumsfeld was accidentally correct: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There_are_known_knowns
To be clear: you need to know what you don't know before you can do what you need to do in order to know anything. :)

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Re: 1053: “Ten Thousand”

Postby James Ensor » Wed May 09, 2012 11:54 am UTC

Well I'm one of the lucky 10,000 today, because I had never heard of the Mentos/Diet Coke thing. Thank you Randall! (and YouTube)

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Re: 1053: “Ten Thousand”

Postby ModestMouse » Wed May 09, 2012 11:55 am UTC

I liked today's comic. The more you think about it, the deeper it gets. :)

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Re: 1053: “Ten Thousand”

Postby Yakk » Wed May 09, 2012 12:06 pm UTC

This comic was discussed prior to this thread over here:
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=84021
(it was accidentally posted by the site at a previous time. You'll note that some of the discussion in this thread has already occurred in the previous thread...)
One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision - BR

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