1096: "Clinically Studied Ingredient"

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airdrik
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Re: More marketing bs

Postby airdrik » Fri Aug 17, 2012 3:01 pm UTC

RogerB wrote:I once worked for a company that made scientific instruments. These had to be tested to see if they met radio emission standards.

(Incidentally, that was an interesting day out as the testing was done 300 feet underground in a worked out chamber in a salt mine; to avoid picking up Radio1.)

Anyway, the instrument failed the radio emissions test. The leaflet marketing produced said "designed to meet radio emission standards".

http://www.despair.com/propaganda.html

Or rather, in marketing there is "the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth" which the marketeers know (or at the very least someone on the side of the marketeers knows), then there is the "truth" which marketing presents to the world which is "marketing's truth, as much of the truth as marketing will present to you and nothing but propaganda, twisted logic, blatent lies and sometimes a small ray of truth (which is only there to satisfy some regulatory body) which is largely obscured by everything else". At least it won't kill your cat on a friday the 13th in a dark ally after walking under a ladder (it will instead kill your cat on saturday the 14th in your neighbor's back yard).

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Re: 1096: "Clinically Studied Ingredient"

Postby Faux » Fri Aug 17, 2012 3:02 pm UTC

Just went through this yesterday, my company brought in a vendor to train on selling a product that "has frequencies". They even used the kinesiology parlor trick where you push down on someone's arm while they're standing on one leg (Video Explanation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Piu75P8sxTo).

Being the lowly IT guy, there to oversee the audio and screencast, I wasn't allowed to call them on their bs. ):

I did find out that at least ~1/3 of my company is comprised of gullible morons, however. (Everyone that attended aside from myself.)
Last edited by Faux on Fri Aug 17, 2012 3:05 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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VectorZero
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Re: 1096: "Clinically Studied Ingredient"

Postby VectorZero » Fri Aug 17, 2012 3:04 pm UTC

Van wrote:Fireballs don't lie.

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Re: 1096: "Clinically Studied Ingredient"

Postby justalurkr » Fri Aug 17, 2012 3:18 pm UTC

Faux wrote: They even used the kinesiology parlor trick where you push down on someone's arm while they're standing on one leg (Video Explanation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Piu75P8sxTo).


I want the ceramic pendant in that video for what it says, which has a power all its own. Also, I can wear it more places than a T-shirt that says "It works, bitches," though that much better reflects my attitude.
Last edited by justalurkr on Fri Aug 17, 2012 4:20 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Moose Anus
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Re: 1096: "Clinically Studied Ingredient"

Postby Moose Anus » Fri Aug 17, 2012 3:26 pm UTC

Don't worry guys, this stuff promotes a healthy digestive system, and it seems to cure colds and many other ailments, and I'm selling it for up to 90% off!
Lemonade? ...Aww, ok.

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BAReFOOt
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Re: 1096: "Clinically Studied Ingredient"

Postby BAReFOOt » Fri Aug 17, 2012 3:57 pm UTC

I’d like to add another equation to the set:

Code: Select all

stupidity(x) / stupidity(y) = money(y)

where x = a person
      y = a person that is not x, and wants to make money from x

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Re: 1096: "Clinically Studied Ingredient"

Postby Sodexa » Fri Aug 17, 2012 4:25 pm UTC

Is it possible that in the mouseover text, "...understanding that it's like a Hollywood studio..." should be "...understanding that is like a Hollywood studio..."? It could also work the way it is.

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Re: 1096: "Clinically Studied Ingredient"

Postby BAReFOOt » Fri Aug 17, 2012 4:28 pm UTC

AvatarIII wrote:Well to be fair, if it was clinically studied and found to be bad or harmful the FDA/MHRA/whoever would not let it go to market, […]


Lol. No, all it means, is that the company that made it, had enough money and lobbyists to get past that organization. ^^

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BAReFOOt
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Re: 1096: "Clinically Studied Ingredient"

Postby BAReFOOt » Fri Aug 17, 2012 4:29 pm UTC

Dingbats wrote:I'm probably to ignorant of science and English to fully understand this comic..?


Yes. Yes, you are. XD

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Re: 1096: "Clinically Studied Ingredient"

Postby endolith » Fri Aug 17, 2012 6:05 pm UTC

peewee_RotA wrote:My guess is that this was either in reference to homeopathy or herbal supplements. Both are infamous for not having to be tested for effectiveness by the FDA before approval. Although I'm sure they have to be tested for harmful substances.


Nope. You can legally sell arsenic as medicine if you call it homeopathic. Ain't loopholes grand?

While the FDA requires conventional prescription drugs and over-the-counter medicines go through testing to be proven safe and effective, these regulations do not apply to homeopathic solutions.

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Re: 1096: "Clinically Studied Ingredient"

Postby jpers36 » Fri Aug 17, 2012 6:46 pm UTC

endolith wrote:Nope. You can legally sell arsenic as medicine if you call it homeopathic. Ain't loopholes grand?


I don't see how an abstract of an Indian study of the toxicity of homeopathic arsenic proves anything about the legality of homeopathic arsenic in the USA. Or anywhere, for that matter, including India.

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Re: 1096: "Clinically Studied Ingredient"

Postby AvatarIII » Fri Aug 17, 2012 6:55 pm UTC

BAReFOOt wrote:
AvatarIII wrote:Well to be fair, if it was clinically studied and found to be bad or harmful the FDA/MHRA/whoever would not let it go to market, […]


Lol. No, all it means, is that the company that made it, had enough money and lobbyists to get past that organization. ^^


is that really possible?

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Re: 1096: "Clinically Studied Ingredient"

Postby endolith » Fri Aug 17, 2012 7:05 pm UTC

jpers36 wrote:I don't see how an abstract of an Indian study of the toxicity of homeopathic arsenic proves anything about the legality of homeopathic arsenic in the USA. Or anywhere, for that matter, including India.


Huh? We're talking about the US FDA.

Today, although conventional prescription drugs and new OTC drugs must undergo thorough testing and review by the FDA for safety and effectiveness before they can be sold, this requirement does not apply to homeopathic remedies.


http://healing.about.com/od/homeopathy/ ... fact_4.htm

You do not have to prove your homeopathic medicines safe before selling them. The common ingredient Arsenicum album, which has poisoned people, is legal to sell as medicine in the United States.

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Re: 1096: "Clinically Studied Ingredient"

Postby jpers36 » Fri Aug 17, 2012 7:16 pm UTC

endolith wrote:
jpers36 wrote:I don't see how an abstract of an Indian study of the toxicity of homeopathic arsenic proves anything about the legality of homeopathic arsenic in the USA. Or anywhere, for that matter, including India.


Huh? We're talking about the US FDA.

Today, although conventional prescription drugs and new OTC drugs must undergo thorough testing and review by the FDA for safety and effectiveness before they can be sold, this requirement does not apply to homeopathic remedies.


http://healing.about.com/od/homeopathy/ ... fact_4.htm

You do not have to prove your homeopathic medicines safe before selling them. The common ingredient Arsenicum album, which has poisoned people, is legal to sell as medicine in the United States.


You might want to check your link in your previous post, if that's the link you initially intended for it. It's going to an abstract of an Indian study of the toxicity of homeopathic arsenic.

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Re: 1096: "Clinically Studied Ingredient"

Postby pkcommando » Fri Aug 17, 2012 7:22 pm UTC

endolith wrote:
jpers36 wrote:I don't see how an abstract of an Indian study of the toxicity of homeopathic arsenic proves anything about the legality of homeopathic arsenic in the USA. Or anywhere, for that matter, including India.


Huh? We're talking about the US FDA.

Today, although conventional prescription drugs and new OTC drugs must undergo thorough testing and review by the FDA for safety and effectiveness before they can be sold, this requirement does not apply to homeopathic remedies.


http://healing.about.com/od/homeopathy/ ... fact_4.htm

You do not have to prove your homeopathic medicines safe before selling them. The common ingredient Arsenicum album, which has poisoned people, is legal to sell as medicine in the United States.

I'm too lazy to look it up right now, but haven't there also been reports where someone has tested various "all-natural" herbal remedies and found prescription drugs?

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Re: 1096: "Clinically Studied Ingredient"

Postby Himself » Fri Aug 17, 2012 7:28 pm UTC

Actually this reminds me of a campaign ad from 2006 that said one of the candidate's contributors had been "investigated for fraud." No mention of a trial or anything else beyond an investigation.
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Moose Anus
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Re: 1096: "Clinically Studied Ingredient"

Postby Moose Anus » Fri Aug 17, 2012 8:10 pm UTC

http://www.homeowatch.org/articles/fdac2.html wrote:FDA is aware of a few reports of illness associated with the use of homeopathic products. However, agency review of those reported to FDA discounted the homeopathic product involved as the cause of the adverse reaction. In one instance, arsenic, which is a recognized homeopathic ingredient, was implicated. But, as would be expected, FDA analysis revealed the concentration of arsenic was so minute there wasn't enough to cause concern, explains Miracco. "It's been diluted out."


endolith's article references arsenic products at 1X, which means 10% of the medication is the arsenic stuff. I'm pretty sure that product would not fly in the US.
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Re: 1096: "Clinically Studied Ingredient"

Postby pyronius » Fri Aug 17, 2012 8:15 pm UTC

Somewhat relevant experience.

last summer i took part in a study of a particular weight loss medicine for the pennington biomedical research facility. they only wanted males of a normal weight and thus I, weighing 125, was accepted. I lost 11 lbs in 8 weeks... that's fucking scary. where it connects to the topic though is that i at one point asked the lead investigator what exactly i was taking and why they were interested (for me personally it was the $750) and she informed me that it was an extremely powerful thyroid hormone that had recently been pulled off the market because some company had been selling it as a "dietary supplement". in other words, rather than run the normal route of finding something that doesnt work, can't be sold as medicine and therefore selling it as a supplement they found something with potentially catastrophic physical effects and therefore decided not to do the testing needed to sell it as medicine instead opting to pretend it did nothing... that's like trying to sell plutonium to children claiming its just a funny looking rock... WTF?

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Re: 1096: "Clinically Studied Ingredient"

Postby AdmiralGreene » Sat Aug 18, 2012 1:31 am UTC

At least we know it works!
I suppose I should state something clever, no?

Dragons!

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Re: 1096: "Clinically Studied Ingredient"

Postby drewder » Sat Aug 18, 2012 1:39 am UTC

One classic example is Homeopathic teething tabs. http://hylands.com/products/teething.php
These are sold to parents with the promise of making teething easier. Problem is they contain a substance known as "bella donna" otherwise known as deadly nightshade. Side effects include dry mouth, urinary retention, flushing, papillary dilation, constipation, confusion and delirium. In larger doses belladonna causes vomiting, paralysis, hallucinations, coma and even death.
But hey the company that makes them claims they only use a small amount (as if a small amount of poison is good for you) but it was latter discovered by the FDA that their quality control wasn't very good and the dosage could vary widely between tablets.

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Re: 1096: "Clinically Studied Ingredient"

Postby ManaUser » Sat Aug 18, 2012 4:07 am UTC

Moose Anus wrote:endolith's article references arsenic products at 1X, which means 10% of the medication is the arsenic stuff. I'm pretty sure that product would not fly in the US.

In one sense you're right, they wouldn't get away with it in the long term, and I could easily see selling so clearly unsafe as 10% arsenic leading to criminal charges. But the interesting aspect is that along as they sell it as a homeopathic medicine or a supplement rather than a normal medicine, they don't have to get any approval ahead of time. So the FDA is limited to banning supplements or ingredients after they come to market and someone gets hurt. (Maybe they have already done so with low-dilution arsenic, I don't actually know.)

To alot of people, that probably sounds terrible, but personally I think they should extend that system to all drugs instead of forcing companies to use silly labeling that calls it a supplement. But then I'm an anarchist at heart, so YMMV.

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Re: 1096: "Clinically Studied Ingredient"

Postby mixh » Sat Aug 18, 2012 6:26 am UTC

@maniexx wrote:Wow.
the instrument failed the radio emissions test. The leaflet marketing produced said "designed to meet radio emission standards".

If I ever decide to be evil, I'll start by finding a marketing job :D


Well, politics is the marketing of ideas, so go right ahead! :D

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Re: 1096: "Clinically Studied Ingredient"

Postby mixh » Sat Aug 18, 2012 6:33 am UTC

drewder wrote:One classic example is Homeopathic teething tabs. http://hylands.com/products/teething.php
These are sold to parents with the promise of making teething easier. Problem is they contain a substance known as "bella donna" otherwise known as deadly nightshade. Side effects include dry mouth, urinary retention, flushing, papillary dilation, constipation, confusion and delirium. In larger doses belladonna causes vomiting, paralysis, hallucinations, coma and even death.
But hey the company that makes them claims they only use a small amount (as if a small amount of poison is good for you) but it was latter discovered by the FDA that their quality control wasn't very good and the dosage could vary widely between tablets.



I assume that Vitamin A in small amounts is good for you.

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Re: 1096: "Clinically Studied Ingredient"

Postby mixh » Sat Aug 18, 2012 6:40 am UTC

Well, I thought I would go with the salacious:

"less than 2 out of 10 users suffered venereal desease within the last 6 months, your mileage may vary".

Ahem. Sorry.

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Re: 1096: "Clinically Studied Ingredient"

Postby W3ird_N3rd » Sat Aug 18, 2012 10:45 pm UTC

willpellmn wrote:Does anyone have an example of a product actually using this phrase? I know marketers will try all sorts of nonsense (the recent announcement that several of my favorite cereals are randomly "gluten-free" now was a notable example), but it seems like this one is too transparent for even The Average American to fall for. I mean, it doesn't even sound positive, let alone superlative.

Try some TV-advertising in The Netherlands (and, I'm guessing, anywhere in the world). Virtually ANY product you're supposed to put on your skin is "dermatologically tested". Sure, the subjects may or may not have sustained third degree burning wounds from the product, but a test is a test, right?

I got some hand-wash-paste (it sounds odd even in Dutch) here that says exactly this on the packaging. Could make a picture if you don't believe me..
fagricipni wrote:Actually 8/11 will do the job: 8/11=.7272 or, rounded, 73%.

I was thinking the exact same thing.

So out of 3000 doctors, 2989 couldn't be bothered to respond. The unfortunate printing error that put "Bulgaria" at the bottom line of the shipping address may or may not be responsible for this. 11 letters accidentally did arrive at doctors (in Bulgaria), 8 of which were paid by the research company. It's a result!

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Re: 1096: "Clinically Studied Ingredient"

Postby Max™ » Sun Aug 19, 2012 9:57 am UTC

drewder wrote:as if a small amount of poison is good for you

That is quite literally the principle behind homeopathic bullshit, if a little can kill you, then diluting it until there is nothing but water that "remembers" the substance will "inoculate" you against similar afflictions.

http://darryl-cunningham.blogspot.com/2 ... pathy.html
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Re: 1096: "Clinically Studied Ingredient"

Postby J Thomas » Sun Aug 19, 2012 10:30 am UTC

Max™ wrote:
drewder wrote:as if a small amount of poison is good for you

That is quite literally the principle behind homeopathic bullshit, if a little can kill you, then diluting it until there is nothing but water that "remembers" the substance will "inoculate" you against similar afflictions.

http://darryl-cunningham.blogspot.com/2 ... pathy.html


It's probably true for some things, maybe for many things, and in he right doses. But diluting it to the point there's nothing left leaves only placebo effects.

There was a time when this was appropriate. It used to be that the "effective" medications tended to do more harm than good, on average, so that homeopathic medicine was the best. It's hard to be sure when the balance changed but 1945 might be about right. Suddenly we had antibiotics that sometimes did a lot of good and seldom did much harm. If you have a bacterial infection you are far more likely to benefit from an antibiotic than from a homeopathic dose. But in that same time we have also gotten effective medications that are hard to use. Hormones for example. It took a long time using cortisone and its derivatives and analogs before MDs learned to do more good than harm, on average. Similarly it will probably take a long time to learn how to use interferon treatments effectively. If we actually start doing things that have real effects and are customized for a single patient, it might take centuries to learn how to do that right.

Meanwhile homeopathic medicine will continue to get the same benefits it always has.
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Re: 1096: "Clinically Studied Ingredient"

Postby DataGenetics » Sun Aug 19, 2012 7:00 pm UTC

"Real chocolate flavor"

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Re: 1096: "Clinically Studied Ingredient"

Postby Max™ » Sun Aug 19, 2012 9:30 pm UTC

"Real" chocolate flavor.

Real "chocolate" flavor.

Real chocolate "flavor".

Real "chocolate flavor".

"Real chocolate" flavor.

Am I being sexual, ironic, or disgusting, who can tell?
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Re: 1096: "Clinically Studied Ingredient"

Postby Trasvi » Mon Aug 20, 2012 1:10 am UTC

My favourite one which gets thrown around on cosmetics ads is 'dermatologically tested'. This means approximately 'we put some on our skin one time before we sold it to you' (or more likely, on some animal).

Even funnier are the companies which make up bogus testing agencies to test their products. Head+Shoulders shampoo famously gets their products tested by 'The Australian Hair and Scalp Foundation', which caused a flurry at H+S's parent company Proctor and Gamble a few years back to actually, you know, set up this company which was doing all their testing. (http://valuesaustralia.com/blog/a-mocke ... a-scandal/). The AHSF ow actually has a website and contact details, though I believe it has been looked into again and their sole source of funding is still Proctor+Gamble.

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Re: 1096: "Clinically Studied Ingredient"

Postby Ogre » Mon Aug 20, 2012 3:22 am UTC

I'd never heard this phrase, so of course I googled it. Not really doubting it, just wondering who'd used it. Since I'm late to the party, most of the hits now are links back to Xkcd.

However, I did find Nature's Bounty Melatonin on Amazon, which mentions a "clinically studied hormone" and later tells us that "Melatonin is a clinically studied ingredient that's closely involved in the natural sleep cycle and helps support restful sleep patterns"

So yeah. It really happened.

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Re: 1096: "Clinically Studied Ingredient"

Postby TravDogg » Mon Aug 20, 2012 5:13 am UTC

Waladil wrote:Anyone here see the new 5-Hour Energy commercial?

They surveyed 3,000 doctors, and 73% of those who responded said that they would recommend a low-calorie energy supplement (to patients who already use energy supplements).
So... couldn't that be like saying that 73% of doctors would recommend getting a shallow stab wound (to patients who are already going to get stabbed)?
Although on the flip-side, it could also be like saying that 73% of doctors recommend drinking filtered Fountain of Youth water (to patients who are already drinking from the Fountain of Youth).


They then follow up the statistic by saying how many calories are in 5-hour energy, hoping people will conclude that 73% of doctors recommend 5-hour energy (to people who take energy supplements). However, If you read the fine print on the bottom of the screen, it says that 56% of these 73% would actually recommend 5-hour energy, and overall, 47% would specifically recommend 5-hour energy for healthy patients who use energy supplements (which implies that around 6% of the doctors surveyed who would not recommend low-calorie energy drinks but would for some reason recommend 5-hour energy, and I take this to be a result of a bias in the survey). So someone watching the commercial very closely learns that the majority of doctors would not recommend 5-hour energy to anyone, meaning that the commercial is obviously counting on viewers being unobservant.

You can watch the commercial at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCqT3fdAAHQ. As of now, it has 3 likes and 63 dislikes on youtube, so hopefully this means that a lot of people aren't falling for it.

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Re: 1096: "Clinically Studied Ingredient"

Postby Eternal Density » Mon Aug 20, 2012 11:08 am UTC

Angua wrote:
peewee_RotA wrote:
AvatarIII wrote:Well to be fair, if it was clinically studied and found to be bad or harmful the FDA/MHRA/whoever would not let it go to market, so a clinical study would guarantee its safety.

More appropriate would be the fact that clinically studying something does not guarantee its efficacy.


My guess is that this was either in reference to homeopathy or herbal supplements. Both are infamous for not having to be tested for effectiveness by the FDA before approval. Although I'm sure they have to be tested for harmful substances. So if it implies anything it implies: "This product does not contain significant amounts of arsenic or mercury."

It could also be used for foods being marketed as healthy (like cereals and yoghurt).
You mean like asbestos free cereal? Randall should totally do an xkcd about that!
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Re: 1096: "Clinically Studied Ingredient"

Postby pkcommando » Mon Aug 20, 2012 11:46 am UTC

"Kid tested, mother approved."

By the time you're old enough to spot the flaw there they've already hooked you on their cereal.

Cunning bastards! :D :D

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Re: 1096: "Clinically Studied Ingredient"

Postby mcdigman » Mon Aug 20, 2012 2:33 pm UTC

I don't know that I've seen it in an ad, but I have heard people say climbing gear is "rated" without saying what the actual rating was (presumably they wouldn't publish the rating if it broke at 50 N...)

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Re: 1096: "Clinically Studied Ingredient"

Postby Angelastic » Mon Aug 20, 2012 5:05 pm UTC

I just realised that I have nail polishes that claim to last 'up to 7 days'. I'm going to have to run some tests, so that on the off chance it lasts more than 7 days, I can complain. It usually only lasts up to two days, but if I keep trying maybe I'll be able to prove the claim wrong. :)

I prefer it when things are marketed as "up to X or more". Then I know I'm getting what's advertised.
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Re: 1096: "Clinically Studied Ingredient"

Postby W3ird_N3rd » Mon Aug 20, 2012 11:55 pm UTC

Angelastic wrote:I just realised that I have nail polishes that claim to last 'up to 7 days'. I'm going to have to run some tests, so that on the off chance it lasts more than 7 days, I can complain. It usually only lasts up to two days, but if I keep trying maybe I'll be able to prove the claim wrong. :)

I prefer it when things are marketed as "up to X or more". Then I know I'm getting what's advertised.

'up to 7 days', that's brilliant.

I'm going to market some gasoline in a 1-gallon jerrycan that will run your car "up to 1500 miles".

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Re: 1096: "Clinically Studied Ingredient"

Postby flicky1991 » Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:05 pm UTC

I saw a great one recently: "96% of satisfied customers would recommend us."
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Re: 1096: "Clinically Studied Ingredient"

Postby ahammel » Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:07 pm UTC

flicky1991 wrote:I saw a great one recently: "96% of satisfied customers would recommend us."
The other 4% were like 'I'm satisfied, but fuck you anyway'.
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Re: 1096: "Clinically Studied Ingredient"

Postby Coyne » Fri Aug 24, 2012 6:11 am UTC

ahammel wrote:
flicky1991 wrote:I saw a great one recently: "96% of satisfied customers would recommend us."
The other 4% were like 'I'm satisfied, but fuck you anyway'.


Oh, and yes, only 0.4% of our 10,000 customers were satisfied, but of those 40 satisfied customers, 96% would recommend us.
In all fairness...


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