1135: "Arachnoneurology"

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Re: 1135: "Arachnoneurology"

Postby rmsgrey » Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:22 pm UTC

Klear wrote:I admit that I'm going by common sense more than I should - I know that in these kinds of thought experiments it is a dangerous thing to do.

Still, the way I see it, the room where you are throwing your coffee is packed with air molecules which bounce off each other and I imagine them being in some kind relative equilibrium. Furthermore, the air molecules behave in a different way than the molecules of the coffee and milk. Is there enough room/energy/time for such radical change to the natural behaviour of a lump of coffee?

Would it be theoretically possible for the random movements of air to, say, throw a paperweight down from a table in this way? Could they in theory topple a car standing in a garage? Or a steamroller? I think there is some limit to what is at all possible, if improbable. The question then is whether the separation of coffee and milk falls under this limit.

Like I said, common sense doesn't help much though I don't have the required knowledge to use instead. I'm just voicing my doubt.


At the particle level, you have gas particles bouncing off each other, and off solid particles, which are mostly held in place by electrostatic forces - some gas particles stick and some solid particles get knocked loose, and there are small chunks of solid flying around like colossal gas particles, but the main thing is you just have particles interacting in simple ways - none of those large-scale concepts like "car" or "garage" or "tornado". At the level of particle interaction, provided you don't have radioactive decay involved, time is reversible - if you could take a snapshot of a large-enough, well-enough isolated region, and reverse the velocity of every particle in it, then those particles would interact under the same laws of physics and reverse recent events, just like running a video backwards, until either quantum randomness, or the influence of the outside, or both, managed to make a noticeable difference in the course of events.

Given that you could take a car stood on its side and nudge it so it falls down flat, in principle, with sufficiently advanced technology and enough power, you could recreate the vibrations in the ground and the motion of the air so that they'd converge on the car and flip it up onto its side. The more advanced your technology, and the more resources you have to spend, the further in advance you could set things up to flip the car - up to the point where quantum uncertainty prevents you from controlling the outcome sufficiently precisely.

What we could do with sufficient effort, blind chance and natural forces could also do, but it would take a ludicrously long time, or a ludicrously large number of cars and garages.

It's more likely that I'd serve a term as US President than that white coffee chucked in the air would separate out and land in the appropriate containers - and I am not, and never have been, a US citizen...

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Re: 1135: "Arachnoneurology"

Postby Coyoty » Mon Nov 19, 2012 9:25 pm UTC

In the warnerverses, where observationally influenced quantum phenomena extend to the macro level, it would be unlikely that a thrown cup of coffee with cream and sugar would not sometimes revert to separate containers of coffee, cream, and sugar, if someone thought it might be funny. Strange attractors are much more attractive in warnerverses, with related events travelling in tighter formations, so coincidences coincide with greater frequency, including things coincidentally happening according to an observer's thoughts or whims. It may be true coincidence, or the related event chains may be close enough to influence each other, including thoughts on macro events. This is similar to universes where magic works, except in warnerverses the relationships have culturally evolved to be expressed in ways that seem humorous to outside observers.

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Re: 1135: "Arachnoneurology"

Postby speising » Mon Nov 19, 2012 9:35 pm UTC

Thats why on the discworld, million to one chances crop up nine times out of ten.

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Re: 1135: "Arachnoneurology"

Postby Quizatzhaderac » Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:42 pm UTC

Arachnoanachronism - The presence of spiders in a period of time where spiders don't exist.

Midoarachnochloriphobia - The fear of Sith spiders.

Etymarachnounaraneaephilia - The love of pointing out that not all arachnids are spiders.
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Re: 1135: "Arachnoneurology"

Postby dudiobugtron » Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:00 pm UTC

Quizatzhaderac wrote:Arachnoanachronism - The presence of spiders in a period of time where spiders don't exist.

Midoarachnochloriphobia - The fear of Sith spiders.

Etymarachnounaraneaephilia - The love of pointing out that not all arachnids are spiders.

"But Yoda, how can I fight General Arachnous? He has 8 light sabers!"

"Overcome your fear you must. A spider he is not."
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Re: 1135: "Arachnoneurology"

Postby bmonk » Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:42 pm UTC

speising wrote:Thats why on the discworld, million to one chances crop up nine times out of ten.

Also can happen with the Improbability Drive.
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Re: 1135: "Arachnoneurology"

Postby shokoshu » Wed Nov 21, 2012 11:22 am UTC

Ultra Geek Knowledge Tidbit! Vampirellas costume (yeah, I know, "costume" is somewhat pushing it)
was woven by spiders in hell!

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Re: 1135: "Arachnoneurology"

Postby Coyoty » Wed Nov 21, 2012 2:02 pm UTC

In the Munsters reboot, Lily's wardrobe is woven by spiders on her body.

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Re: 1135: "Arachnoneurology"

Postby fghj70 » Thu Nov 22, 2012 7:29 pm UTC

Whoa I have a "genious" idea (also cruel).
It took some guy a few years to breed foxes that didn't fear humans. Spiders reproduce much faster so we could take some spiders breed them and apply selective pressure for least aggressive ones (the ones that won't kill and eat one another) using computer guided laser cannons (like 2W blue lasers and Aegis System or something) to eradicate more aggressive ones. After several years we have spider silk for the price of normal one.
Last edited by fghj70 on Fri Nov 23, 2012 8:42 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 1135: "Arachnoneurology"

Postby Klear » Fri Nov 23, 2012 4:27 pm UTC

fghj70 wrote:Whoa I have a "genious" idea (also cruel).
It took some guy a few years to breed foxes that didn't fear humans. Spiders reproduce much faster so we could take some spiders breed them and apply selective pressure for least aggressive ones using computer guided laser cannons (like 2W blue lasers and Aegis System or something) to eradicate more aggressive ones. After several years we have spider silk for the price of normal one.


Because normally spiders are bloodthirsty beasts attacking humans on sight...

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Re: 1135: "Arachnoneurology"

Postby fghj70 » Fri Nov 23, 2012 8:50 pm UTC

Klear wrote:
fghj70 wrote:Whoa I have a "genious" idea (also cruel).
It took some guy a few years to breed foxes that didn't fear humans. Spiders reproduce much faster so we could take some spiders breed them and apply selective pressure for least aggressive ones using computer guided laser cannons (like 2W blue lasers and Aegis System or something) to eradicate more aggressive ones. After several years we have spider silk for the price of normal one.


Because normally spiders are bloodthirsty beasts attacking humans on sight...

I added one bracket to make my idea more clear.

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Re: 1135: "Arachnoneurology"

Postby Quizatzhaderac » Mon Nov 26, 2012 3:57 pm UTC

Klear wrote:
Spoiler:
fghj70 wrote:Whoa I have a "genious" idea (also cruel).
It took some guy a few years to breed foxes that didn't fear humans. Spiders reproduce much faster so we could take some spiders breed them and apply selective pressure for least aggressive ones using computer guided laser cannons (like 2W blue lasers and Aegis System or something) to eradicate more aggressive ones. After several years we have spider silk for the price of normal one.


Because normally spiders are bloodthirsty beasts attacking humans on sight...

I think the issue is more spiders attacking/eating each other. Silk worms can be farmed because you can keep thousands together. I'm not 100% sure exactly how aggressive various spiders are, but I wouldn't be surprised if you put 1000 in a square meter enclosure at the beginning of the month, and at the end of the month there was only one.

Speaking of "only one" does anyone know how to say spider-highlander in Greek?
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Re: 1135: "Arachnoneurology"

Postby Rotherian » Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:09 am UTC

Quizatzhaderac wrote:
Klear wrote:
Spoiler:
fghj70 wrote:Whoa I have a "genious" idea (also cruel).
It took some guy a few years to breed foxes that didn't fear humans. Spiders reproduce much faster so we could take some spiders breed them and apply selective pressure for least aggressive ones using computer guided laser cannons (like 2W blue lasers and Aegis System or something) to eradicate more aggressive ones. After several years we have spider silk for the price of normal one.


Because normally spiders are bloodthirsty beasts attacking humans on sight...

I think the issue is more spiders attacking/eating each other. Silk worms can be farmed because you can keep thousands together. I'm not 100% sure exactly how aggressive various spiders are, but I wouldn't be surprised if you put 1000 in a square meter enclosure at the beginning of the month, and at the end of the month there was only one.

Speaking of "only one" does anyone know how to say spider-highlander in Greek?


Google translate gives a rough translation as αράχνη από ορεινές περιοχές (literally, "spider from highlands")
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Re: 1135: "Arachnoneurology"

Postby armandoalvarez » Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:39 pm UTC

I think the issue is more spiders attacking/eating each other. Silk worms can be farmed because you can keep thousands together. I'm not 100% sure exactly how aggressive various spiders are, but I wouldn't be surprised if you put 1000 in a square meter enclosure at the beginning of the month, and at the end of the month there was only one.


Yes, everything I've heard about spider farming* says the problem is that spiders are cannibalistic. I don't know if it's a problem that can be successfully bred out, although maybe picking the right species of spider would help. But the idea of breeding a more docile spider seems possible given the short generation span. It would still be rather difficult to farm them compared to silk worms, though, because silk worms make silk in nice, compact cocoons, whereas spiders spin webs that take up space; spiders are carnivorous so feeding them is going to be more difficult than just giving silk worms some mulberry leaves; and spiders are much more mobile, liable to escape, and dangerous than silk worms.

*I remember this issue being discussed years ago in National Geographic- google "National Geographic spiders goats farm." I've also seen it discussed occasionally since then.

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Re: 1135: "Arachnoneurology"

Postby bmonk » Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:14 am UTC

armandoalvarez wrote:
I think the issue is more spiders attacking/eating each other. Silk worms can be farmed because you can keep thousands together. I'm not 100% sure exactly how aggressive various spiders are, but I wouldn't be surprised if you put 1000 in a square meter enclosure at the beginning of the month, and at the end of the month there was only one.


Yes, everything I've heard about spider farming* says the problem is that spiders are cannibalistic. I don't know if it's a problem that can be successfully bred out, although maybe picking the right species of spider would help. But the idea of breeding a more docile spider seems possible given the short generation span. It would still be rather difficult to farm them compared to silk worms, though, because silk worms make silk in nice, compact cocoons, whereas spiders spin webs that take up space; spiders are carnivorous so feeding them is going to be more difficult than just giving silk worms some mulberry leaves; and spiders are much more mobile, liable to escape, and dangerous than silk worms.

Then, after solving all those questions by breeding a domesticated spider, there is the next question: what sort of silk will they spin?
Remember what happened when they tried to breed more placid Arctic Foxes, so that they could raise them for fur? They got something remarkably like a dog--with a dog's coat rather than fox fur.
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Re: 1135: "Arachnoneurology"

Postby Quizatzhaderac » Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:37 pm UTC

Rotherian wrote:
Quizatzhaderac wrote:......
Speaking of "only one" does anyone know how to say spider-highlander in Greek?


Google translate gives a rough translation as αράχνη από ορεινές περιοχές (literally, "spider from highlands")

Sorry, to be clear: I meant ancient Greek, using roman letters, with minimal articles and prepositions. In the style that English words such as "Arachnoneurology" are built.
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Re: 1135: "Arachnoneurology"

Postby eran_rathan » Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:40 pm UTC

Oktalist wrote:We find ourselves in a universe that appears to follow predictable laws because the appearance of predictable laws is pretty much a necessary condition for the development of intelligent life.


You should fix that to, "We find ourselves in a universe that appears to follow predictable laws because the appearance of predictable laws appears to be a necessary condition for the development of our intelligence." Which is a tautology.

And the first rule of the Tautology Club is the the first rule of the Tautology Club.
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Re: 1135: "Arachnoneurology"

Postby rmsgrey » Wed Nov 28, 2012 10:35 pm UTC

eran_rathan wrote:
Oktalist wrote:We find ourselves in a universe that appears to follow predictable laws because the appearance of predictable laws is pretty much a necessary condition for the development of intelligent life.


You should fix that to, "We find ourselves in a universe that appears to follow predictable laws because the appearance of predictable laws appears to be a necessary condition for the development of our intelligence." Which is a tautology.


I'd say "The ability to perceive predictable laws is part of our definition of intelligence"

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Re: 1135: "Arachnoneurology"

Postby Rotherian » Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:14 am UTC

Quizatzhaderac wrote:
Rotherian wrote:
Quizatzhaderac wrote:......
Speaking of "only one" does anyone know how to say spider-highlander in Greek?


Google translate gives a rough translation as αράχνη από ορεινές περιοχές (literally, "spider from highlands")

Sorry, to be clear: I meant ancient Greek, using roman letters, with minimal articles and prepositions. In the style that English words such as "Arachnoneurology" are built.


Well the transliteration of αράχνη από ορεινές περιοχές is approximately arachne apo oreines perioches, so I suppose you could drop the apo (which, iirc, has a meaning somewhere between of and from) and go from there. Another, probably closer, option is to go with υψίπεδα αράχνη (literally "highlands spider"), which approximately transliterates to epsipetha arachne so maybe you could say Epsipethoarachnezoan?

Come to think of it, that would make a great forum name (assuming that one's main goal is to make one's forum name easy to spell incorrectly, and moderately hard to pronounce).
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Re: 1135: "Arachnoneurology"

Postby mathmannix » Thu Nov 29, 2012 2:40 pm UTC

Quizatzhaderac wrote:
Rotherian wrote:
Quizatzhaderac wrote:......
Speaking of "only one" does anyone know how to say spider-highlander in Greek?


Google translate gives a rough translation as αράχνη από ορεινές περιοχές (literally, "spider from highlands")

Sorry, to be clear: I meant ancient Greek, using roman letters, with minimal articles and prepositions. In the style that English words such as "Arachnoneurology" are built.


Highlander could be the word "altiterra" (or "montana"). So, spider-highlander could be something derived from one of these, combined with Aranea (or Arachne) for spider.
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Re: 1135: "Arachnoneurology"

Postby Rotherian » Thu Nov 29, 2012 4:50 pm UTC

mathmannix wrote:
Quizatzhaderac wrote:
Rotherian wrote:
Quizatzhaderac wrote:......
Speaking of "only one" does anyone know how to say spider-highlander in Greek?


Google translate gives a rough translation as αράχνη από ορεινές περιοχές (literally, "spider from highlands")

Sorry, to be clear: I meant ancient Greek, using roman letters, with minimal articles and prepositions. In the style that English words such as "Arachnoneurology" are built.


Highlander could be the word "altiterra" (or "montana"). So, spider-highlander could be something derived from one of these, combined with Aranea (or Arachne) for spider.


Except that alti- and -terra are both latin affixes (one being a prefix, the other being a suffix). And montana is spanish (from the latin montis, iirc).

Quizatzhaderac specified romanized Greek. (I.E. Greek, but using the alphabet that is used by English and most Romantic languages - such as Spanish, Italian, or French.)
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Re: 1135: "Arachnoneurology"

Postby Quizatzhaderac » Thu Nov 29, 2012 4:52 pm UTC

Rotherian wrote:....Epsipethoarachnezoan.
Come to think of it, that would make a great forum name (assuming that one's main goal is to make one's forum name easy to spell incorrectly, and moderately hard to pronounce).

That was only my third priority when I picked this name. The avatar image, obviously, would be a spider in a kilt, possibly with a broadsword across it's back.

I just looked up "Macedonian"'s etymology, and apparently it literally means highlander. So it wold be either "Macedonianaranea", or if you want to crank the "ar" syllables, "Arcronianarachea"
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Re: 1135: "Arachnoneurology"

Postby Rotherian » Thu Nov 29, 2012 5:16 pm UTC

Quizatzhaderac wrote:
Rotherian wrote:....Epsipethoarachnezoan.
Come to think of it, that would make a great forum name (assuming that one's main goal is to make one's forum name easy to spell incorrectly, and moderately hard to pronounce).

That was only my third priority when I picked this name. The avatar image, obviously, would be a spider in a kilt, possibly with a broadsword across it's back.

I just looked up "Macedonian"'s etymology, and apparently it literally means highlander. So it wold be either "Macedonianaranea", or if you want to crank the "ar" syllables, "Arcronianarachea"


I understand that forum name being hard to pronounce if one happens to be posting upon a forum devoted to sports, but on a forum like this one, that name is pretty easy to pronounce (especially for those that watched the movie Dune - the one with Sting in it, not the TV miniseries).

Heck, my favorite line was when Alia walked up to the Baron Harkonnen and said, "And how can this be? For he is the Kwisatz Haderach!" Right before she stabs him with the gom jabbar.

Considering the IPA pronunciation of Kwisatz Haderach and Quizatzhaderac are practically identical, the name isn't a hard one.

As far as Macedonian goes, this states that, although many commonly say that it means highlander, "R.S.P. Beekes claims that the morphological analysis make- (root) + -dnos (suffix) is impossible in an Indo-European word and that it is more likely that the word has a Pre-Greek origin."
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Re: 1135: "Arachnoneurology"

Postby Quizatzhaderac » Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:02 pm UTC

Sorry, Poe's law: I never actually cared if anyone had trouble pronouncing my name.

So that leaves "Arcronianarachne" with my understanding that "acro-" means high or above "-nian" means "-lander", and "arachne" is noun form for spider.

I wish etymology man was here.
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Re: 1135: "Arachnoneurology"

Postby bmonk » Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:35 pm UTC

eran_rathan wrote:
Oktalist wrote:We find ourselves in a universe that appears to follow predictable laws because the appearance of predictable laws is pretty much a necessary condition for the development of intelligent life.


You should fix that to, "We find ourselves in a universe that appears to follow predictable laws because the appearance of predictable laws appears to be a necessary condition for the development of our intelligence." Which is a tautology.

And the first rule of the Tautology Club is the the first rule of the Tautology Club.

So. It has come to this.
Having become a Wizard on n.p. 2183, the Yellow Piggy retroactively appointed his honorable self a Temporal Wizardly Piggy on n.p.1488, not to be effective until n.p. 2183, thereby avoiding a partial temporal paradox. Since he couldn't afford two philosophical PhDs to rule on the title.

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Re: 1135: "Arachnoneurology"

Postby mathmannix » Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:36 pm UTC

Macedon apparently comes from the Greek roots μάκαρ (makar), meaning "blessed, happy" and οδων, "toothed").

They obviously had happy teeth. Probably had something to do with novocaine.

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Re: 1135: "Arachnoneurology"

Postby Klear » Thu Nov 14, 2013 10:46 am UTC


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Re: 1135: "Arachnoneurology"

Postby mathmannix » Thu Nov 14, 2013 1:48 pm UTC

Klear wrote:This is kinda similar to the strip:

http://www.leonardo.info/gallery/gallery314/duprat.html


If you like to wear jewelry made by insects, also check out this
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