Citizen's Wage

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morriswalters
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Re: Citizen's Wage

Postby morriswalters » Thu Aug 08, 2013 8:45 pm UTC

Do they? Private enterprise has in the past used violence to enforce their will and may well still. And if they don't always do it directly then it can be done indirectly, by proxy. And there exist examples. Governments are limited except in extreme cases from exercising the power they hold. The exercise of great amounts of power is difficult. For instance the use of nuclear weapons is nigh on impossible since the use has predictable outcomes, of which almost none are good. The same with the Military. It's a powerful tool that is hard to wield. We have demonstrated this three times in my memory, Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan. Corporate power is more narrowly focused. But power is power. And the Government and private industry cross pollinate at all levels. It's questionable in the aggregate if they exist independently at all. However I have moved into tin hat land.

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Re: Citizen's Wage

Postby elasto » Thu Aug 08, 2013 8:59 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:Do they? Private enterprise has in the past used violence to enforce their will and may well still. And if they don't always do it directly then it can be done indirectly, by proxy. And there exist examples. Governments are limited except in extreme cases from exercising the power they hold.

'Violence' includes imprisonment and threat of imprisonment. Government violence is so all-pervading it's extremely easy to forget about it, disappearing as background noise. And it's not just direct threats of violence - like 'pay your taxes or else': Consider the subtle but chilling effect of legislation like the DMCA.

Corporations wield nothing like the power that government does. Corporation's main power is actually their ability to corrupt government (including, for example, getting them to pass the DMCA). But their power over us is, by definition, one step more indirect than government's, so they ought to find it slightly harder to control our lives. In some countries, corporations hold considerably less sway than they do in the UK and US, so all is not lost.

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Re: Citizen's Wage

Postby The Great Hippo » Thu Aug 08, 2013 9:27 pm UTC

elasto wrote:'Violence' includes imprisonment and threat of imprisonment. Government violence is so all-pervading it's extremely easy to forget about it, disappearing as background noise. And it's not just direct threats of violence - like 'pay your taxes or else': Consider the subtle but chilling effect of legislation like the DMCA.

Corporations wield nothing like the power that government does. Corporation's main power is actually their ability to corrupt government (including, for example, getting them to pass the DMCA). But their power over us is, by definition, one step more indirect than government's, so they ought to find it slightly harder to control our lives. In some countries, corporations hold considerably less sway than they do in the UK and US, so all is not lost.
Right; and while corporations could always hire a bunch of thugs to break into your house and kill you (and some of them have, in fact, done this very thing!), there are certain very direct limitations on how far they can go. Governments don't like competition; they especially don't like it when you challenge their monopoly on violence, imprisonment, and the threat of imprisonment. Corporations can only act in this regard with impunity under very special cases -- and it usually has to be done with the cooperation of the state.

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Re: Citizen's Wage

Postby morriswalters » Fri Aug 09, 2013 12:09 am UTC

elasto wrote:
morriswalters wrote:Do they? Private enterprise has in the past used violence to enforce their will and may well still. And if they don't always do it directly then it can be done indirectly, by proxy. And there exist examples. Governments are limited except in extreme cases from exercising the power they hold.

'Violence' includes imprisonment and threat of imprisonment. Government violence is so all-pervading it's extremely easy to forget about it, disappearing as background noise. And it's not just direct threats of violence - like 'pay your taxes or else': Consider the subtle but chilling effect of legislation like the DMCA.

Corporations wield nothing like the power that government does. Corporation's main power is actually their ability to corrupt government (including, for example, getting them to pass the DMCA). But their power over us is, by definition, one step more indirect than government's, so they ought to find it slightly harder to control our lives. In some countries, corporations hold considerably less sway than they do in the UK and US, so all is not lost.
Corruption is a use of power. And business has no need for you to be destroyed by violence. Humans are easily manipulated. So our destruction serves no goal. And where wealth exists it has power. So those European countries are impacted even if you can't see it. When business needs you to be destroyed the government will do it for them. Ask yourself when in the political process you enter, and when money does? The vote is only as good as the candidates, but most people don't enter the process that early. However power and money does. However more on topic on TED a gentleman named Andrew McAfee had something to say on the CW.

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Re: Citizen's Wage

Postby ucim » Fri Aug 09, 2013 3:55 am UTC

morriswalters wrote:However more on topic on TED a gentleman named Andrew McAfee had something to say on the CW.
He mentioned the CW briefly, but didn't really make a case for it. My key takeaway is that there is going to be less room for people like Bill+, but not for people like Ted.

A CW would support people like Bill. It would not discourage the creation of more people like Bill. But in the new economy, we don't need more people like Bill. We need more people like Ted. A CW does nothing for that.

Jose
+"People like Ted" are educated, creative, in a professional field.
"People like Bill" are not educated, mainly employed in non-creative fields - those that can be replaced by robots.
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Re: Citizen's Wage

Postby The Great Hippo » Fri Aug 09, 2013 4:42 am UTC

ucim wrote:A CW would support people like Bill. It would not discourage the creation of more people like Bill. But in the new economy, we don't need more people like Bill. We need more people like Ted. A CW does nothing for that.
I'm actually suspicious that a lot of people like Ted don't actually need financial encouragement to do wonderful things; they just need financial support to do wonderful things.

It's anecdotal, but the vast majority of creative people I know don't need strong financial incentives to do the things they love; they'd do them for relatively comfortable living wages.

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Re: Citizen's Wage

Postby morriswalters » Fri Aug 09, 2013 10:11 am UTC

ucim wrote:
morriswalters wrote:However more on topic on TED a gentleman named Andrew McAfee had something to say on the CW.
He mentioned the CW briefly, but didn't really make a case for it. My key takeaway is that there is going to be less room for people like Bill+, but not for people like Ted.

A CW would support people like Bill. It would not discourage the creation of more people like Bill. But in the new economy, we don't need more people like Bill. We need more people like Ted. A CW does nothing for that.
How many like Ted's can you get? A lot of the currently unemployed are Ted like. College education and so on. We've been encouraging people like Ted for years.

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Re: Citizen's Wage

Postby ucim » Fri Aug 09, 2013 1:18 pm UTC

It's actually a gross oversimplification to split the world into "people like Ted" and "people like Bill"; there is a lot of overlap and a lot of missing types. But the picture still illustrates a valid point - that a CW may cover up the emerging problem rather than solving it. In covering it up, it prevents the solution.

You don't save society by saving the individuals.

I don't know what the answer is, largely because I don't know what the question is. What is the problem being addressed, why is it a problem, who is it a problem for, and is this problem something static (amenable to solution) or dynamic (whatever answer we come up with will become inapplicable as time moves on)?

Many people have answers for this, but I don't think we have consensus, and without consensus on the question, it's a bit senseless to be defending (or attacking) an answer, as it is probably an answer to a different question.

Remember that often solutions become problems in their own right.

It's not that we need more Teds. It's that we need fewer Bills. If the projected scenario happens, society will be better off with fewer Bills. But the Bills that exist at present won't like it.

Jose
Order of the Sillies, Honoris Causam - bestowed by charlie_grumbles on NP 859 * OTTscar winner: Wordsmith - bestowed by yappobiscuts and the OTT on NP 1832 * Ecclesiastical Calendar of the Order of the Holy Contradiction * Please help addams if you can. She needs all of us.

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Re: Citizen's Wage

Postby morriswalters » Fri Aug 09, 2013 2:36 pm UTC

ucim wrote:It's not that we need more Teds. It's that we need fewer Bills. If the projected scenario happens, society will be better off with fewer Bills. But the Bills that exist at present won't like it.

Change Bill to "have not". Change Ted to "have". The idea behind the CW is to have fewer "have not's". The goal is clear and so the question then would be, can it be made to work? My problem with it is, who pays for it? My belief is that everybody outside the developed world would end up doing so. Depriving the wealthy of some of their wealth is not a prospect that I worry about. But the wealthy will seek to maintain their privilege. I believe that the answer has to be a global one, since the economy is global. If the economy isn't global than I'm all in. Which is it?

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Re: Citizen's Wage

Postby ucim » Fri Aug 09, 2013 3:05 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:Change Bill to "have not". Change Ted to "have".
That's not my take on the piece. It's not what they have but what they can contribute that distinguishes the Bills from the Teds. The Bills' contribution to society is being replaced, fewer Bills are needed. The Teds' contribution is not (yet) one that is being replaced. This is the (simpleminded) reason why Bills look like "have nots" and Teds look like "haves". But just giving Bills some money doesn't turn them into Teds1.

Existing Bills would want a CW to compensate, but this is a drain on society. (The postulated new) society is better off with fewer Bills, but if you are a Bill scheduled for demolition, you are not going to like that.

morriswalters wrote:The idea behind the CW is to have fewer "have not's". The goal is clear
Phrased that way yes, the goal is clear. But what problem does this solve, and why is this the problem?

Jose
1Well, maybe it would for some, but I suspect it would not for most.
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Re: Citizen's Wage

Postby morriswalters » Fri Aug 09, 2013 4:22 pm UTC

ucim wrote: It's not what they have but what they can contribute that distinguishes the Bills from the Teds.
Is it? One question would be, is there equality of access to the tools needed to be a Ted? I don't think you can demonstrate that that equality of access exists. The second question revolves around the question, does private industry have the capacity to use all the Ted's, assuming that we could produce them. I don't believe that can be demonstrated either. And even if the system could do both, does everyone in the human race have the innate ability to become a Ted? I have no idea, but my intuition says no. So what do you do with people who can't or who don't hit the skills lottery?

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Re: Citizen's Wage

Postby ucim » Fri Aug 09, 2013 4:58 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:
ucim wrote:It's not what they have but what they can contribute that distinguishes the Bills from the Teds.
Is it? One question would be, is there equality of access to the tools needed to be a Ted? I don't think you can demonstrate that that equality of access exists.
Yes, it is. I don't necessarily mean innate capacity to contribute, although that certainly is a part of it. And of course there isn't equality of access to all the tools that makes it easy to be a Ted. Schools have admissions requirements, teachers have to be paid, and our potential Teds need to be adequately nourished, both physically and mentally/spiritually, where this includes instilling the necessary attitudes too. Somebody who is depressed and defeated is less likely to become a Ted. Nonetheless, public libraries are enormous resources and are pretty much free and open to everyone (at least in the US). Internet access is also an extremely valuable resource, and is also free (via the library) or inexpensive (via the Evil Corporations).

Those motivated enough can go far.

My questions to you are:

"How much is it your responsibility to ensure that I am happy, well adjusted, talented, connected, educated, and fed, in the hopes that I would also be a Ted?"

"How evil is it that I am able to favor somebody that I know, whose talents, dedication, and loyalty I am familiar with, over somebody else, be it in friendship, business, or avocation?"


morriswalters wrote:The second question revolves around the question, does private industry have the capacity to use all the Teds, assuming that we could produce them.
Of course not. It is certainly possible to overload the system. But given the proposed scenario, it will overload with Bills long before it overloads with Teds. This wasn't always true.

morriswalters wrote:So what do you do with people who can't or who don't hit the skills lottery?
That depends on what the problem is seen to be. Every solution creates its own problem.

While this is a simplification, it bears consideration: If you want to mold society, you must let go of your concern for the individual. But if you want to care for the individual, you must let go of your concern for society. Because helping one tends to harm the other.

Jose
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Re: Citizen's Wage

Postby morriswalters » Fri Aug 09, 2013 7:22 pm UTC

As individuals I could care less. I don't mean to seem callous, but I have no belief in the idea that every poor person can be rescued. On the other hand one of the greatest things about this society until recently was that there was a belief that you could rise in it. Let that belief, true or not, go away and the results could be less than optimal. Overall I worry about social order. Being a member of an unskilled group doesn't mean that you can't bring power to bear through sheer numbers. Something to keep in mind is that the members of that group are sometimes members for reasons other than a native lack of intelligence. So what they can't reach one way can always be reached another. Terrorists manage to have an influence far greater than their numbers. As do drug dealers. I like walking down the street at night without having an unreasonable fear of misadventure. I would like it to remain that way. If I thought that a CW could guarantee that, I could get on board and never look back. I haven't seen a way to do it that doesn't strike me as magical thinking.

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Re: Citizen's Wage

Postby addams » Fri Aug 09, 2013 7:42 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:As individuals I could care less. I don't mean to seem callous, but I have no belief in the idea that every poor person can be rescued. On the other hand one of the greatest things about this society until recently was that there was a belief that you could rise in it. Let that belief, true or not, go away and the results could be less than optimal. Overall I worry about social order. Being a member of an unskilled group doesn't mean that you can't bring power to bear through sheer numbers. Something to keep in mind is that the members of that group are sometimes members for reasons other than a native lack of intelligence. So what they can't reach one way can always be reached another. Terrorists manage to have an influence far greater than their numbers. As do drug dealers. I like walking down the street at night without having an unreasonable fear of misadventure. I would like it to remain that way. If I thought that a CW could guarantee that, I could get on board and never look back. I haven't seen a way to do it that doesn't strike me as magical thinking.

One more time:
Rase the Bottom by making All SS checks the same as the Top SS check.

Magical Thinking? Sure. And, your bank account number is Numerology.

Do you have a Lucky Number? It pays out? Over and Over, again?
Is it a Goose? Are you a Giant with a Goose that Lays Golden Eggs?
Fee Fi Foe Fum? Do you have The Blood of an English Man?

No? Morris? What are you?
A Meat Bag? How much per pound?
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They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: Citizen's Wage

Postby morriswalters » Fri Aug 09, 2013 8:32 pm UTC

More than you have.

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Re: Citizen's Wage

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Aug 09, 2013 8:33 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:Do they? Private enterprise has in the past used violence to enforce their will and may well still. And if they don't always do it directly then it can be done indirectly, by proxy. And there exist examples. Governments are limited except in extreme cases from exercising the power they hold. The exercise of great amounts of power is difficult. For instance the use of nuclear weapons is nigh on impossible since the use has predictable outcomes, of which almost none are good. The same with the Military. It's a powerful tool that is hard to wield. We have demonstrated this three times in my memory, Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan. Corporate power is more narrowly focused. But power is power. And the Government and private industry cross pollinate at all levels. It's questionable in the aggregate if they exist independently at all. However I have moved into tin hat land.


Industrial era companies sometimes used violence, yeah. Pinkertons and the like were less like the modern image of the detective, and more like a hired thug.

I agree that the government SHOULD have a monopoly on the initiation of violence...but that is a statement is somewhat different from Hippo's claim.

However, the use of nuclear weapons is not "nigh on impossible". It has happened, twice. It will likely happen again. Violence at the scale of a war is, in modern democracies, pretty much solely the province of the nation. Pick the worst company you can think of in your nation...are your odds of being a victim of violence from them as large as being a victim of say, police brutality?

There may not be an actual difference in kind, but the difference in scope of power is extreme, with nations being vastly larger than corporations and wielding far, far more power. And yes, a corporation acting against the state violently is going to very, very swiftly be punished. Probably severely and violently.

morriswalters wrote:How many like Ted's can you get? A lot of the currently unemployed are Ted like. College education and so on. We've been encouraging people like Ted for years.


Going to college doesn't necessarily mean you have that creative drive. A lot of my fellow students were experts in the art of doing the minimum necessary to get by. I'm not really interested in trying to classify people into merely two types...and I do think that a creative drive can be encouraged...but I don't think we're necessarily doing all we can to encourage it.

In fact, I think a lot of primary education kills the crap out of creativity, favoring conformity instead.

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Re: Citizen's Wage

Postby morriswalters » Fri Aug 09, 2013 11:20 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:Going to college doesn't necessarily mean you have that creative drive. A lot of my fellow students were experts in the art of doing the minimum necessary to get by. I'm not really interested in trying to classify people into merely two types...and I do think that a creative drive can be encouraged...but I don't think we're necessarily doing all we can to encourage it.

In fact, I think a lot of primary education kills the crap out of creativity, favoring conformity instead.
Most people wouldn't know creativity if it bit them. Creative people need almost no push to be creative. They just do it. Maybe public education has changed since I attended, but large class sizes meant too little time for students and what they needed. Most people want to make a living and they are told some very subtle lies, that college students earn more. This is true but somewhat deceptive. People spend energy doing what they want to do. But encouraging creativity means that you risk people doing what they want to do versus what will support them. They aren't mutually exclusive, but most artists will starve before they make a living doing what they do, whatever it is.

No rational government or business wants a nuclear exchange. They will go through lots of changes to make sure it doesn't happen. Could it happen. Sure.

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Re: Citizen's Wage

Postby Tyndmyr » Mon Aug 12, 2013 4:59 am UTC

morriswalters wrote:Most people wouldn't know creativity if it bit them. Creative people need almost no push to be creative. They just do it. Maybe public education has changed since I attended, but large class sizes meant too little time for students and what they needed. Most people want to make a living and they are told some very subtle lies, that college students earn more. This is true but somewhat deceptive. People spend energy doing what they want to do. But encouraging creativity means that you risk people doing what they want to do versus what will support them. They aren't mutually exclusive, but most artists will starve before they make a living doing what they do, whatever it is.


Oh, I agree...but I wouldn't call the college claim even a subtle lie. The importance of secondary education is quite solid, and deserves to be talked up to a significant degree. However, nobody sane would say it is the ONLY thing that matters, or that it's value is infinite. Where you go to school and what you study significantly affect the return on investment you can expect to see.

Creativity is useful and fantastic, but as you point out, it's not a substitute for making a living. However, I think we can teach the value of the latter without crushing the former. For instance, I think a solid microecon foundation should be something kids pick up in high school. Sure, I know there's the old "balance a checkbook" exercise...but personal finances are just a wee bit more complex than that these days, and it's something a lot of kids are woefully unprepared for. See also, the nigh predatory credit card companies in colleges.

No rational government or business wants a nuclear exchange. They will go through lots of changes to make sure it doesn't happen. Could it happen. Sure.


Currently, this is correct. However, non rational actors exist in the world. In extreme cases, there may be even actors who rationally want a nuclear exchange. Certainly, the US managed to justify dropping two bombs. Sure, no exchange happened, because Japan sure as hell wasn't gonna launch any back...but many non nuclear powers exist today.

Consider the case of Israel. It seems probable that they have the bomb. They have also not had a particularly peaceful history. Are you absolutely certain that they would not use nukes against a non nuclear power? What if the only other option was their utter defeat?

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Re: Citizen's Wage

Postby leady » Mon Aug 12, 2013 12:31 pm UTC

The entire cultural understanding of "creative" is massively out of whack these days

Creative these days is "the arts"

Creative should be / needs to be the engineers designing novel solutions to problems & scientists proposing original hypotheses to describe the natural world

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Re: Citizen's Wage

Postby ucim » Mon Aug 12, 2013 1:40 pm UTC

leady wrote:The entire cultural understanding of "creative" is massively out of whack these days
Creative these days is "the arts"
Creative should be / needs to be the engineers designing novel solutions to problems & scientists proposing original hypotheses to describe the natural world
I think by and large the second part is also understood to be included. The context of the usage needs to be considered though.

As to the purpose of college, I don't see it as "getting a better job" (though that is often a side effect). Rather, I see it as "expanding one's horizons so that one can appreciate life all the more". (i.e. so when you go see Shakespeare, you get the jokes and enjoy the play) Of course, college is not the only way to do this (and perhaps in my quick example, not even the best way) but it certainly a concentrated way to do a lot of stuff like that. It is also (of course) a way to further one's understanding of the world and the specific parts of it that especially hold one's interest, as well as discovering other parts that are interesting too, and helping put more world together in one's mind.

Often (though not always) this makes a person more employable, as well as more enjoyable.

Jose
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Re: Citizen's Wage

Postby Grog » Mon Aug 12, 2013 1:41 pm UTC

I don't know if this has already been said or not, but an initiative for a "grundeinkommen" base salary has reached over 130'000 signatures of the required 100'000. The whole package will be consigned the 4th october to our parliament, that at the beginning will be checking if the signatures are all authentic. Then there will be a popular votation, and if the yes win, the parliament will be forced to develop a law and introduce this system.
Since our initiative have only the right to change the constitution, the voted text will be very vague (in german, down there a google translate traduction):



Eidgenössische Volksinitiative
«Für ein bedingungsloses Grundeinkommen»

Die Bundesverfassung vom 18. April 1999 wird wie folgt geändert:

Art. 110a (neu) bedingungsloses Grundeinkommen

1 Der Bund sorgt für die Einführung eines bedingungslosen Grundeinkommens.

2 Das Grundeinkommen soll der ganzen Bevölkerung ein menschenwürdiges Dasein und die Teilnahme am öffentlichen Leben ermöglichen.

3 Das Gesetz regelt insbesondere die Finanzierung und die Höhe des Grundeinkommens.

Federal popular initiative
"For an unconditional basic income»

The Federal Constitution of 18 April 1999 is hereby amended as follows:

Article 110a (new) unconditional basic income

1 The federal government provides for the introduction of an unconditional basic income.

2 The basic income to ensure a dignified existence and participation in the public life of the whole population.

3 The law regulates in particular the financing and the level of basic income.



I personally favor this solution. Everything that move responsibility to the single citizen is welcome by me.

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Re: Citizen's Wage

Postby ucim » Mon Aug 12, 2013 1:53 pm UTC

Grog wrote:I personally favor this solution. Everything that move responsibility to the single citizen is welcome by me.
I don't see how this provision moves responsibility =to= the single citizen. Seems to me it moves responsibility (to earn a living) =from= the citizen, and =to= the government. So, then it will be the government's responsibility to figure out how to pay people this basic income (and what to do about people who already are receiving this amount due to their own efforts, whether past or present).

Jose
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Re: Citizen's Wage

Postby leady » Mon Aug 12, 2013 2:33 pm UTC

ucim wrote:
leady wrote:The entire cultural understanding of "creative" is massively out of whack these days
Creative these days is "the arts"
Creative should be / needs to be the engineers designing novel solutions to problems & scientists proposing original hypotheses to describe the natural world
I think by and large the second part is also understood to be included. The context of the usage needs to be considered though.

As to the purpose of college, I don't see it as "getting a better job" (though that is often a side effect). Rather, I see it as "expanding one's horizons so that one can appreciate life all the more". (i.e. so when you go see Shakespeare, you get the jokes and enjoy the play) Of course, college is not the only way to do this (and perhaps in my quick example, not even the best way) but it certainly a concentrated way to do a lot of stuff like that. It is also (of course) a way to further one's understanding of the world and the specific parts of it that especially hold one's interest, as well as discovering other parts that are interesting too, and helping put more world together in one's mind.

Often (though not always) this makes a person more employable, as well as more enjoyable.

Jose


I don't think the second usage really is anymore and not for a long time. I can't think of a single occasion in the entirety of schooling until 18 that you are allowed or encouraged to have technical creativity. I suspect this is a bad thing for a lot of people in schools.

Oh and £40k to be able to really understand the bad jokes in shakespeare is all good (dear god listening to people actually laughing at a live performance to jokes that are meant to be funny as opposed to actually funny, is actually funny), so long as I'm not paying. Much much less so if I have to foot the bill

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Re: Citizen's Wage

Postby morriswalters » Mon Aug 12, 2013 5:09 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:Consider the case of Israel. It seems probable that they have the bomb. They have also not had a particularly peaceful history. Are you absolutely certain that they would not use nukes against a non nuclear power? What if the only other option was their utter defeat?
Asked and answered in the quote.

leady wrote:The entire cultural understanding of "creative" is massively out of whack these days

Creative these days is "the arts"

Creative should be / needs to be the engineers designing novel solutions to problems & scientists proposing original hypotheses to describe the natural world
Define it however you like. I define it broadly. Plumbers are creative as are most of the trades, as is most any job. The type of things you could do with a CW aren't absorbing to the point of consuming much time. Creativity costs money or resources. No level of CW that we could afford to grant, if we can at all, is sufficient, in my opinion, to be creative with. It will keep you alive and safe. No more.

The subtle lie is that, like Animal Farm's barnyard animals, all degrees are equal, just some degrees are more equal than others. And you have to pay for the privilege. Shakespeare is available free or charge, if it was meaningful and of value to most people they could have it. I have the complete works and sad to say I haven't read much of it at all.

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Re: Citizen's Wage

Postby Grog » Mon Aug 12, 2013 7:35 pm UTC

ucim wrote:
Grog wrote:I personally favor this solution. Everything that move responsibility to the single citizen is welcome by me.
I don't see how this provision moves responsibility =to= the single citizen. Seems to me it moves responsibility (to earn a living) =from= the citizen, and =to= the government. So, then it will be the government's responsibility to figure out how to pay people this basic income (and what to do about people who already are receiving this amount due to their own efforts, whether past or present).

Jose


What I meant is that in my vision, there is 0 social welfare after the basic income (but for catastrophic event). If you fuck up with the money you get, you are living in the street and must seek the help of others people. There is no state help behind the corner. What I see nowadays is a lot of people living off credit and not paying insurances or whatsnot, because here if you really can't manage to pay the state will help you for the most basic needs. So people continue to act irresponsibly, because there is the "state" net to catching them up when they fall.
If you eliminates all the safety nets, and only leave the basic income, then it's up to you how to spend this money. You are responsible for it and you have to make it count. If you link the wage to the GDP of your country, you could even see a boom in buying local products, making vacation inside your country, ecc just in order to increase your own wage. For me, to spend your money in your country and not outside, is a responsible economic act and this could incentivate it.

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Re: Citizen's Wage

Postby Yakk » Mon Aug 12, 2013 8:26 pm UTC

Grog, suppose you require a tonne of medication to survive, or personal support workers to survive, or even a wheel chair or other mobility aids.

Budgeting for everyone to be able to afford that off of a citizen's wage is probably impractical.
One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision - BR

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Re: Citizen's Wage

Postby leady » Tue Aug 13, 2013 12:01 pm UTC

I think the idea under that model is that you take insurance out to cover such things

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Re: Citizen's Wage

Postby Yakk » Tue Aug 13, 2013 1:55 pm UTC

Do your parents take insurance out before you are born? Because some of them can be obvious needs from *before* you are born, which makes taking insurance out impractical.

Similarly, as anyone who has experienced truly free market insurance, it is designed to be as easy as possible to break from the standpoint of the insurer whenever they can find an excuse. Successful insurance companies become experts at it, designing policies that are great and top notch until you get sick, and then disappear due to some random excuse (I'm sorry, you forgot to mention your acne treatment from when you where 13 in your application, your insurance is retroactively cancelled.)
One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision - BR

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Re: Citizen's Wage

Postby Grog » Tue Aug 13, 2013 2:17 pm UTC

@Yakk: Insurance fully covers those think you mentioned, and just a couple of points that you may not know about our system:
- Every citizen MUST have an insurance. Is the law. If you cannot pay it, the state helps you with your monthly bill. If the form of help comes as a CW instead of every single case that must be checked etc it probably makes for less bureaucracy.
- There is a basic insurance pack that every insurance company must offer and that includes practically every medical aspect but for teeth. You can buy insurance package to upgrade your treatment (single room at the hospital instead of 4 bed room, etc), include teeth, include homeopatic treatment/akupuntur/etc. There are a lot of option but the basic package is the same for every company. It's mandated by law.
- You can have the basic package and the options by different companies, although there are combined offer
- You can change company every year at no cost and choose a basic package (which price differ from company to company) by a new company and they must accept you independently of your health status (it's the law). They can cause you trouble for the optional packages though, although is not common.

Results? Our total health related cost amount to 5,564 $ per capita, which I don't think is that elevated considered the quality of the cure here (and that, since is mandatory, everyone has access to). USA for instance has total costs of 8,608 $ per capita, but not everyone is covered.
Sources: WHO country statistics

I do think that in our system it is fully possible to integrate the "helping" checks to the less rich in form of a CW. It would surely make for far less bureaucracy, since is not the state anymore that must check if you really are entitled to determined help or tax reduction. You just get the CW and you have the responsibility to use that money to buy insurance, food, etc. If you don't, you are screwed.

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Re: Citizen's Wage

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Aug 13, 2013 9:24 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:Consider the case of Israel. It seems probable that they have the bomb. They have also not had a particularly peaceful history. Are you absolutely certain that they would not use nukes against a non nuclear power? What if the only other option was their utter defeat?
Asked and answered in the quote.


Doh, think I misread that.

Grog wrote:What I meant is that in my vision, there is 0 social welfare after the basic income (but for catastrophic event). If you fuck up with the money you get, you are living in the street and must seek the help of others people. There is no state help behind the corner. What I see nowadays is a lot of people living off credit and not paying insurances or whatsnot, because here if you really can't manage to pay the state will help you for the most basic needs. So people continue to act irresponsibly, because there is the "state" net to catching them up when they fall.
If you eliminates all the safety nets, and only leave the basic income, then it's up to you how to spend this money. You are responsible for it and you have to make it count. If you link the wage to the GDP of your country, you could even see a boom in buying local products, making vacation inside your country, ecc just in order to increase your own wage. For me, to spend your money in your country and not outside, is a responsible economic act and this could incentivate it.


*shrug* The whole mess is social welfare, really. Just distributed regardless of need. So, the guy who is perfectly capable of working, but would rather not is subsidized, and the person who is born handicapped and maybe needs more help than average is also subsidized the exact same amount.

Linking the wage to GDP basically serves as a constant brake on growth. It won't cause a boom, it will hamper them.

As for where money gets spent, meh. It's a pretty global economy now. Dollars existing in another country really isn't a bad thing. They'll come back when someone there buys products of ours. Buying locally if it makes sense is great, but it doesn't always make sense. Trade is powerful, and often works to the advantage of both countries.

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Re: Citizen's Wage

Postby Grog » Fri Oct 04, 2013 2:08 pm UTC

Today the initiative for an unconditioned base salary was deposited in Switzerland. 130'000 perople signed it (min required 100'000).
Now the authenticity will be checked and then in 6/7 months we are going to vote over it. If I know my swiss people well, the initative doesn's stand a chance. We are the country of Calvin and Zwingli, after all.

In german:
http://www.20min.ch/schweiz/news/story/19626707

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Re: Citizen's Wage

Postby elasto » Sun Jan 01, 2017 10:35 am UTC

The citizen's wage remains an idea ahead of its time, but I'm convinced it's the only long term option other than a bloody repression or revolution.

Scotland looks set to be the first part of the UK to pilot a basic income for every citizen, as councils in Fife and Glasgow investigate trial schemes in 2017. The councillor Matt Kerr has been championing the idea through the ornate halls of Glasgow City Chambers, and is frank about the challenges it poses:

“Like a lot of people, I was interested in the idea but never completely convinced,” he said. But working as Labour’s anti-poverty lead on the council, Kerr says that he “kept coming back to the basic income”.
At the heart of any experiment with basic income is money: how much should people get and where will it come from? Kerr says his instinct it to base the amount on similar calculations to those made for the living wage.

“It’s about having more than just enough to pay the bills. But part of the idea of doing a pilot is to make mistakes and also find out what is acceptable to the public. There will be a lot of resistance to this. We shouldn’t kid ourselves. Part of the problem is we’re working against a whole discourse of deserving and undeserving poor.”
“People relate to the idea that everyone should have a social dividend. Everywhere I go, it’s the communities that feel left behind by globalisation that are most interested [in the idea of a basic income]. We have seen a sea-change in attitudes.

“This sense of alarm about populist rightwing politics has brought more people to thinking we need to do something to provide better security for people. We are risking our economic and political stability if we don’t do something about it.”


Trials are also due to go underway in Finland, the Netherlands and Canada.

link

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Re: Citizen's Wage

Postby Thesh » Sun Jan 01, 2017 4:11 pm UTC

elasto wrote:The citizen's wage remains an idea ahead of its time, but I'm convinced it's the only long term option other than a bloody repression or revolution.


Market socialism could mitigate many of the problems of globalization. The financial goal of a corporation is to maximize net profits, which can be accomplished by expanding, reducing costs, or increasing prices. The financial goal of a worker's cooperative is to maximize gross profits per worker, aka employee income, which can only be accomplished by improving productivity. When faced with cheaper manufacturing overseas, it is in the corporation's immediate best interest to move operations overseas. When faced with cheaper manufacturing overseas, it is in the worker's cooperative's best interest to focus on improving the brand, as an established brand can beat a cheaper product by focusing on quality/image.

Now, over time, those businesses will still lose business to cheaper producers, but it takes longer and with the right structure you can ensure that all economic gains go to labor, and that they are distributed equally so that everyone wins out over time. If the other country had a market socialist structure as well, their gains would also go to everyone, and with investment in infrastructure and education eventually global inequality will decline and we could open up all borders and trade without problems. In the mean time, I have no problem with tariffs to slow the death of an industry, but not to prop it up.

That said, I think introducing an unconditional basic income/citizens wage/citizens dividend would significantly increase the economic stability and equality in that system.
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Re: Citizen's Wage

Postby elasto » Sun Jan 01, 2017 5:12 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:Now, over time, those businesses will still lose business to cheaper producers, but it takes longer and with the right structure you can ensure that all economic gains go to labor, and that they are distributed equally so that everyone wins out over time.

The problem is that over the next few decades, automation is going to eliminate a lot of unskilled/semi-skilled jobs, and AI is going to eliminate most skilled ones.

What will remain is some service industry jobs (people may always prefer a human nurse or child minder, for example) - but they will be poorly paid - and a few highly skilled and highly paid jobs.

I see only three options thereafter: Brutal repression, bloody revolution or a generous citizen's wage.

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Re: Citizen's Wage

Postby Thesh » Sun Jan 01, 2017 5:58 pm UTC

elasto wrote:
Thesh wrote:Now, over time, those businesses will still lose business to cheaper producers, but it takes longer and with the right structure you can ensure that all economic gains go to labor, and that they are distributed equally so that everyone wins out over time.

The problem is that over the next few decades, automation is going to eliminate a lot of unskilled/semi-skilled jobs, and AI is going to eliminate most skilled ones.

What will remain is some service industry jobs (people may always prefer a human nurse or child minder, for example) - but they will be poorly paid - and a few highly skilled and highly paid jobs.

I see only three options thereafter: Brutal repression, bloody revolution or a generous citizen's wage.


I'm not sure how fast the change is going to be or how much time we have, but market socialism can mitigate the problems of technological unemployment without a citizens dividend. Take the consumer cooperative. This is a business owned by the consumers, which typically works best for retail stores and the like. Their financial goal is to return the lowest prices. Now, these can all be independently ran, but then they can form purchasing cooperatives which improve their bargaining power. Those purchasing cooperatives could, if they so desired, also become manufacturers, returning all savings and productivity gains as lower prices.

Thus, during a period of rapid technological advancement, you could shoot for a deflationary economy where the impact of unemployment is lessened. A situation with permanent high unemployment is mitigated through education, reduced hours, and earlier retirement. I don't think this is ideal, and would still prefer it in combination with an unconditional basic income. The higher the inequality to begin with, the less effective this solution will be.
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Re: Citizen's Wage

Postby ahammel » Sun Jan 01, 2017 7:22 pm UTC

elasto wrote:Trials are also due to go underway in Finland, the Netherlands and Canada.

link

Funny that you necro'd this thread, elasto. I dug it up other day after I read an article about the basic income in fivethirtyeight. It's a very exciting idea if it works.

The big danger seems to be that it would disincentivize paid work to the point where the state can't collect enough income tax to pay out the citizens' wage. The experiments that have been run so far showed a modest reduction in working hours, but everybody involved knew the study was going to end at some point. You don't quit your job because of a CW that lasts a year, but you might if you were going to collect it for the rest of your life. It will be very interesting to see the results in the long term.
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Re: Citizen's Wage

Postby Thesh » Sun Jan 01, 2017 7:49 pm UTC

ahammel wrote:The big danger seems to be that it would disincentivize paid work to the point where the state can't collect enough income tax to pay out the citizens' wage.


That shouldn't be a problem, especially if you fix it to a percent of per-capita income; if there is a labor shortage, wages will go up as long as there is demand for the products; if too many people stay home, the citizens dividend will necessarily be reduced, causing more people to go back to work until the balance is found. A gradual implementation allows us to find that equilibrium more smoothly.
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Re: Citizen's Wage

Postby ucim » Sun Jan 01, 2017 10:16 pm UTC

elasto wrote:I see only three options thereafter: Brutal repression, bloody revolution or a generous citizen's wage.
But where is the money going to come from? Or, more precisely, where is the value of the money going to come from? Money only has value because other people want it, whether it's salt, gold, paper, promises, or electrons. A universal unconditional citizens' wage essentially removes money's value from the economic equation.

So, when it comes time to pay out a citizen's citizens' wage, what are you going to give them, that they can actually use to pay for stuff that other people have?

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Re: Citizen's Wage

Postby Thesh » Mon Jan 02, 2017 1:19 am UTC

ucim wrote:
elasto wrote:I see only three options thereafter: Brutal repression, bloody revolution or a generous citizen's wage.
But where is the money going to come from? Or, more precisely, where is the value of the money going to come from? Money only has value because other people want it, whether it's salt, gold, paper, promises, or electrons. A universal unconditional citizens' wage essentially removes money's value from the economic equation.

So, when it comes time to pay out a citizen's citizens' wage, what are you going to give them, that they can actually use to pay for stuff that other people have?

Jose


People will still have incomes; in fact, total real pre-tax/transfer income will not decline unless we choose to cut consumption; higher productivity means per-capita incomes could go up with less labor. The value of money is determined by the output of your economy, the supply, and the velocity of money. Its legitimacy is that everyone does want it, because they need something to pay for stuff with. Why dollars? According to MMT (not that I necessarily subscribe to it) the legitimacy is derived from taxation; everyone needs to pay taxes, and taxes require dollars; so everyone needs dollars, might as well use dollars for everything.
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Re: Citizen's Wage

Postby ucim » Mon Jan 02, 2017 2:00 am UTC

Thesh wrote:People will still have incomes; in fact, total real pre-tax/transfer income will not decline

But that misses the point. Whatever "money" is, it has value only because people want it, and they only want it because it has value. Scarcity plays into this; this is why inflation devalues money.

Now, either the citizens' wage is going to be a small part of the economy (in which is is basically just welfare by a different name), or it will become a big part of the economy (in which case it ceases to be scarce). Which one it is depends on what the driving force will be. And if the driving force is the loss of jobs to AI and automation, then the citizens' wage will pretty much be the economy.

In which case my original question remains. What will it be paid in, and why will that be valuable?

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