Racism in cultures other than your own

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Tyndmyr
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Re: Racism in cultures other than your own

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Dec 31, 2013 10:27 pm UTC

Derek wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:Hate speech? Seems kind of loose. Huh. Maybe in a certain context it is?

He's talking about Addam's link, which is a list of ethnic slurs. So yeah, it's probably setting the hate speech filter on fire.


Ah, gotcha. I suppose that's sensible. Any sort of filtering software is gonna ping on that, it's not gonna decypher intent. I'd thought it was specific to that phrase, which seemed odd.

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addams
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Re: Racism in cultures other than your own

Postby addams » Thu Jan 02, 2014 4:58 pm UTC

Racism and SterioTyping are very similar.
When humans divide ourselves along SterioType lines;
Is it as bad as Racism?

Well? All Japanese are Japanese.
They are not all the same.

Somehow they can tell at a Glance.
You? They can tell if a person is not Japanese.

I know most can.
It is like a Swede being able to recognize a Parisian.

Clothing. HairStyles. Focus of Interest.
Can Swedes tell at a glance if a different person is not a Swede?

I can't tell at a Glance of another person is an American.
350 Million People spread out over a bunch of Temperature Zones.

An American can be Any Color!
They can be dressed in a Parka on a nice Spring day, because it never gets that cold at home.

Racism? Pre-Judgeing?
Where do we draw the line?
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
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Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
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PolakoVoador
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Re: Racism in cultures other than your own

Postby PolakoVoador » Fri Jan 03, 2014 9:51 pm UTC

I lived in Germany for about a year, and I am a blond, light skinned dude, so most people just assumed I was a random german or european guy, instead of the brazilian I really am.

I lost count of how many times I heard the likes of "No way, you can't be brazilian", "What? Brazilian, really?", "Nope, I don't believe you are brazilian". I've never thought of it as racism, or felt insulted. Just some funny/amusing misconception that, just because the average* brazilian is dark skinned, there isn't light skinned peolpe here.

In fact, where I live, just about 10% of the population is considered black. We had mostly german and italian settlers, beside the portuguese.

*I guess the average brazilian would be called brown (or latino) by americans. This is due to the fact that there was a lot of miscegenation here, with closesd communities not being so common. As an example, I can trace my family back to germans, italians, polish, portuguese, spanish and native indian.

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CorruptUser
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Re: Racism in cultures other than your own

Postby CorruptUser » Sun Jan 05, 2014 3:51 pm UTC

Err... "miscegenation" is itself a very racist term, implying that having ancestors from multiple genetic groups is "wrong". Thus the "mis-" prefix. I think "intermarriage" is a better term for what you mean.

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Ormurinn
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Re: Racism in cultures other than your own

Postby Ormurinn » Sun Jan 05, 2014 4:39 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Err... "miscegenation" is itself a very racist term, implying that having ancestors from multiple genetic groups is "wrong". Thus the "mis-" prefix. I think "intermarriage" is a better term for what you mean.


Nope.

The Misc is from the same route as "mix" - miscegenation is bloodline mixing.

Intermarriage is a different term with a different meaning - you can be married to someone without reproducing with them.

The term miscegenation may be unfashionable, but its not racist.
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CorruptUser
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Re: Racism in cultures other than your own

Postby CorruptUser » Sun Jan 05, 2014 4:54 pm UTC

Considering that it was a term invented during the Civil War (as part of hoax) in order to discredit the Republicans, I'd say it has pretty racist origins.

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Ormurinn
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Re: Racism in cultures other than your own

Postby Ormurinn » Sun Jan 05, 2014 5:05 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Considering that it was a term invented during the Civil War (as part of hoax) in order to discredit the Republicans, I'd say it has pretty racist origins.


OK, that's not what you said previously, nor is it relevant to someone not from the U.S.

The etymology of the word is not racist.
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PolakoVoador
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Re: Racism in cultures other than your own

Postby PolakoVoador » Sun Jan 05, 2014 5:34 pm UTC

Yeah, I just used a direct translation from "miscigenação" from portuguese , which has no racist meanings at all. It is just a word that means reproduction between people of different ethnic groups, nothing more. It is commonly used to describe what happened around here.

Intermarriage actually wouldn't explain all of the miscegenation, since lots of it happend with white people having "bastards" with their slaves, which were black or native indian.

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Re: Racism in cultures other than your own

Postby Derek » Sun Jan 05, 2014 7:58 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Considering that it was a term invented during the Civil War (as part of hoax) in order to discredit the Republicans, I'd say it has pretty racist origins.

That's interesting, I never knew that.

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addams
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Re: Racism in cultures other than your own

Postby addams » Mon Jan 06, 2014 4:23 am UTC

PolakoVoador wrote:Yeah, I just used a direct translation from "miscigenação" from portuguese , which has no racist meanings at all. It is just a word that means reproduction between people of different ethnic groups, nothing more. It is commonly used to describe what happened around here.

Intermarriage actually wouldn't explain all of the miscegenation, since lots of it happend with white people having "bastards" with their slaves, which were black or native indian.

So interesting.
The posters and the native English speakers from the US seem to be very quick to attempt to clean up our language.

I have experience with this sort of thing and I do not understand it.
Yes. Language is important.
Yes. Words can hurt other people.
Yes. It is important to be as thoughtful as possible.

But. umm. We sometimes, just, need a word.
If you think the word Bastard is a mean thing to say, then it may be.
It is also a perfectly good word that means something.

The Bastard child of one man may be a treasured child and have all the advantages of a Prince.
The Bastard child of another man may have problems getting ID.

There were a great many children born.
In some communities every child was treated well.
In some communities only a few were treated well.

You live in a world with a great deal of color variations in people?
Is Rasism a problem for the people of Brazil?
Do you not see it, because you have light hair and eyes?

Or; Has Dr. King's dream come true there, too?
Are people judged by the content of their character not by the color of their skin?
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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PolakoVoador
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Re: Racism in cultures other than your own

Postby PolakoVoador » Mon Jan 06, 2014 12:00 pm UTC

addams wrote:You live in a world with a great deal of color variations in people?
Is Rasism a problem for the people of Brazil?
Do you not see it, because you have light hair and eyes?

Or; Has Dr. King's dream come true there, too?
Are people judged by the content of their character not by the color of their skin?


Yes, there's a great deal of variation. We've been colonized/settled by all sorts of people, and closed communities are not so common here.

Unfortunately, yes, racism is a problem here. We're not that different from the US in this regard. A somewhat recent past of slavery creates a lower class composed mainly by black/brown people. I certantly do not suffer from racism, since I'm part of almost all privileged groups one can think of: upper-middle class hetero white cis male. A few years ago I might've been blind to some the issues, or at least to how severe they are. Nowadays I make conscious effort to see and understand all this problems that are not part of my day-to-day life.

But short answer: racism is a huge problem, and is deeply ingrained in our society, much like in the US, for similar reasons.

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Re: Racism in cultures other than your own

Postby juststrange » Mon Jan 06, 2014 5:45 pm UTC

Want a fun run through terms against every group by every other?

Wikipedia has an article "List of Ethnic Slurs" from what I remember. Full of absolute gems. Granted ethnicity and race are not synonymous, but the lines get blurry. Northern Indians are probably genetically similar to Southern Indians, but not ethnically similar. I can tell you for a fact that many of the latino countries that get grouped together hate eachother (nationalism?). Just go on a construction site in the US and call a latino guy and call him a Mexican. If he is actually from El Salvador, he's jump all over you, in part for getting it wrong, and in part because he thinks Mexicans have given general latinos a bad name on account of being lazy.

Cheese-eating-surrender-monkey. A dig at the French, based on a Simpsons episode. France is not a race, nor an ethnic group, so I reckon thats actually nationalist?

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Re: Racism in cultures other than your own

Postby Derek » Mon Jan 06, 2014 9:22 pm UTC

juststrange wrote:Cheese-eating-surrender-monkey. A dig at the French, based on a Simpsons episode. France is not a race, nor an ethnic group, so I reckon thats actually nationalist?

One can pretty reasonably speak of a French ethnic group. Of course, not all French citizens would be ethnically French (some are immigrants or descended from immigrants, others are from other ethnic groups within the nation of France, like Bretons), and not all ethnically French people are in France (French Louisianians and Quebecois?). Likewise for English, German, Polish, etc.

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Re: Racism in cultures other than your own

Postby Quizatzhaderac » Mon Jan 06, 2014 10:32 pm UTC

While most (Maybe all?) cultures have concepts of race and ethnicity their categorizations vary wildly, because they're really more social constructs then genetic groups.
He's a fun way for Americans to offend people: meet someone the Balkans and guess which specific country they're from. To them, Checks, Bosnians, and Serbs look obviously different.

Most people use three to seven racial groups; few enough to rattle off the whole list. This brushes aside border cases we don't usually see. (see also border areas). Also, funny thing: If you're like most people, you're Asian. Captain Planet tried really hard to be inclusive, but it still portrayed a world were 2 /12 out of five people are white because they were stuck in an American point of view.
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Ormurinn
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Re: Racism in cultures other than your own

Postby Ormurinn » Mon Jan 06, 2014 11:38 pm UTC

Derek wrote:One can pretty reasonably speak of a French ethnic group.... Likewise for English, German, Polish, etc.


We finally managed to get ourselves added to the census a year or two back :)

Employers are starting to wise up too, though most still demand a choice from Welsh, Scottish, Irish or White British.

Bit of a pisstake for the oldest extant ethnicity in the UK.*

*
Spoiler:
se angelfolc is a theme in Bede, and even earlier. The concept of a distinct English people goes back long before Alfred the Great - hence his claim to be "Rex Anglo-Saxonum". The ancestors of the Welsh were resident in Britain before the English, but a unified Welsh identity doesn't emerge till after the Cambro-normans. The Scots arrived on mainland at around the same time as the English (Who were originally brought to the island as foedorati to defend the Romano-Britons (the ancestors of the modern-day Welsh) from the Scotti and Pictones) but a scottish identity didn't emerge for a long time - scots-speaking lowland areas considering themselves the same ethnicity as Gaelic-speaking highlanders is a historically recent event. A unified Irish identity also occured later than the ethnogenesis of the English.
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addams
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Re: Racism in cultures other than your own

Postby addams » Tue Jan 07, 2014 5:35 am UTC

That is funny.
(gack)

English History.
It is One Small Island!

Everybody else was so old fashioned.
They were still making Herstory.

While the English and Scots and Welsh
on one little Island were inventing History.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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eSOANEM
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Re: Racism in cultures other than your own

Postby eSOANEM » Tue Jan 07, 2014 6:52 pm UTC

Ormurinn wrote:ng to wise up too, though most still demand a choice from Welsh, Scottish, Irish or White British.

Bit of a pisstake for the oldest extant ethnicity in the UK.*

*
Spoiler:
se angelfolc is a theme in Bede, and even earlier. The concept of a distinct English people goes back long before Alfred the Great - hence his claim to be "Rex Anglo-Saxonum". The ancestors of the Welsh were resident in Britain before the English, but a unified Welsh identity doesn't emerge till after the Cambro-normans. The Scots arrived on mainland at around the same time as the English (Who were originally brought to the island as foedorati to defend the Romano-Britons (the ancestors of the modern-day Welsh) from the Scotti and Pictones) but a scottish identity didn't emerge for a long time - scots-speaking lowland areas considering themselves the same ethnicity as Gaelic-speaking highlanders is a historically recent event. A unified Irish identity also occured later than the ethnogenesis of the English.


Eh, once the anglo-saxons started settling in large numbers and an English identity started to be formed, a Brythonic counter identity was formed pretty much at the same time. This did include groups other than the Welsh (the Cornish and the people of Strathclyde) but it's still just as old (and is the origin of the many King Arthur legends) though but the other Brythonic havens were more absorbed into England (and Scotland) earlier and more fully than the Welsh. Of course, as the Welsh principality waned, the identity had to be resuscitated a few times but its disingenuous to dismiss it so out of hand.
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Ormurinn
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Re: Racism in cultures other than your own

Postby Ormurinn » Wed Jan 08, 2014 12:33 am UTC

eSOANEM wrote:
Ormurinn wrote:ng to wise up too, though most still demand a choice from Welsh, Scottish, Irish or White British.

Bit of a pisstake for the oldest extant ethnicity in the UK.*

*
Spoiler:
se angelfolc is a theme in Bede, and even earlier. The concept of a distinct English people goes back long before Alfred the Great - hence his claim to be "Rex Anglo-Saxonum". The ancestors of the Welsh were resident in Britain before the English, but a unified Welsh identity doesn't emerge till after the Cambro-normans. The Scots arrived on mainland at around the same time as the English (Who were originally brought to the island as foedorati to defend the Romano-Britons (the ancestors of the modern-day Welsh) from the Scotti and Pictones) but a scottish identity didn't emerge for a long time - scots-speaking lowland areas considering themselves the same ethnicity as Gaelic-speaking highlanders is a historically recent event. A unified Irish identity also occured later than the ethnogenesis of the English.


Eh, once the anglo-saxons started settling in large numbers and an English identity started to be formed, a Brythonic counter identity was formed pretty much at the same time. This did include groups other than the Welsh (the Cornish and the people of Strathclyde) but it's still just as old (and is the origin of the many King Arthur legends) though but the other Brythonic havens were more absorbed into England (and Scotland) earlier and more fully than the Welsh. Of course, as the Welsh principality waned, the identity had to be resuscitated a few times but its disingenuous to dismiss it so out of hand.


Fair enough, I'm no scholar of antiquity, just an interested bystander.

The relative ages of different ethnicities don't matter in terms of their right to recognition - I was merely making a rhetorical point.

I'm just glad to be on the census :)
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