Is White Dominance Exaggerated?

For the serious discussion of weighty matters and worldly issues. No off-topic posts allowed.

Moderators: Azrael, Moderators General, Prelates

KrytenKoro
Posts: 1487
Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2011 2:58 pm UTC

Re: Is White Dominance Exaggerated?

Postby KrytenKoro » Fri Jul 18, 2014 4:30 pm UTC

I think Supernatural has passed those, yeah? Definitely the Bechdel at the very least.
From the elegant yelling of this compelling dispute comes the ghastly suspicion my opposition's a fruit.

User avatar
Crissa
Posts: 294
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2011 8:06 pm UTC

Re: Is White Dominance Exaggerated?

Postby Crissa » Fri Jul 18, 2014 6:30 pm UTC

KrytenKoro wrote:I think Supernatural has passed those, yeah? Definitely the Bechdel at the very least.

What episode would that be?

-Crissa

KrytenKoro
Posts: 1487
Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2011 2:58 pm UTC

Re: Is White Dominance Exaggerated?

Postby KrytenKoro » Fri Jul 18, 2014 7:46 pm UTC

Crissa wrote:
KrytenKoro wrote:I think Supernatural has passed those, yeah? Definitely the Bechdel at the very least.

What episode would that be?

-Crissa

Off the top of my head, the LARPing one has Charlie flirting with a female Fae. Her homosexuality didn't seem to be played as a joke, either. Also, the Oz episode, where Charlie interacts with both Dorothy and the Wicked Witch. Maybe also the backstory for Abaddon, too, with Josie Sands interacting with the nuns.
From the elegant yelling of this compelling dispute comes the ghastly suspicion my opposition's a fruit.

User avatar
setzer777
Good questions sometimes get stupid answers
Posts: 2762
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2008 9:24 am UTC

Re: Is White Dominance Exaggerated?

Postby setzer777 » Fri Jul 18, 2014 8:32 pm UTC

I think there are some Ellen-Jo scenes that qualify as well. Of course that's just that super low bar. Supernatural in general obviously isn't great in that regard.
Meaux_Pas wrote:We're here to go above and beyond.

Too infinity
of being an arsehole

User avatar
LaserGuy
Posts: 4582
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:33 pm UTC

Re: Is White Dominance Exaggerated?

Postby LaserGuy » Fri Jul 18, 2014 8:45 pm UTC

The Wire has, IMHO, some of the best examples of same-sex relationships being handled as mature adult relationships without making them, necessarily, a major plot point.

User avatar
gmalivuk
GNU Terry Pratchett
Posts: 26767
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:02 pm UTC
Location: Here and There
Contact:

Re: Is White Dominance Exaggerated?

Postby gmalivuk » Fri Jul 18, 2014 8:54 pm UTC

setzer777 wrote:I think there are some Ellen-Jo scenes that qualify as well. Of course that's just that super low bar. Supernatural in general obviously isn't great in that regard.

Yeah, that's the thing. Supernatural is in general really problematic in its treatment of marginalized groups, and yet even it manages to pass most of those particular tests.

(Another layer that it doesn't pass so well is that women and PoC shouldn't be killed off just to progress the protagonists' emotional development.)
Unless stated otherwise, I do not care whether a statement, by itself, constitutes a persuasive political argument. I care whether it's true.
---
If this post has math that doesn't work for you, use TeX the World for Firefox or Chrome

(he/him/his)

User avatar
Crissa
Posts: 294
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2011 8:06 pm UTC

Re: Is White Dominance Exaggerated?

Postby Crissa » Fri Jul 18, 2014 11:48 pm UTC

The Bechdel Test doesn't say anything about the relationships, and is a really, really low bar. Two named characters, female, have lines to each other without the subject being a guy. This is hard to do mostly because most lines are relating to the main characters who are, usually, male. But it's a low bar.

And it's a bar that took Supernatural how many years to step over? Hence my sarcasm.

-Crissa

KrytenKoro
Posts: 1487
Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2011 2:58 pm UTC

Re: Is White Dominance Exaggerated?

Postby KrytenKoro » Sat Jul 19, 2014 2:06 am UTC

Crissa wrote:The Bechdel Test doesn't say anything about the relationships, and is a really, really low bar. Two named characters, female, have lines to each other without the subject being a guy. This is hard to do mostly because most lines are relating to the main characters who are, usually, male. But it's a low bar.

And it's a bar that took Supernatural how many years to step over? Hence my sarcasm.

-Crissa

Not very many, actually. There's some one-episode-character stuff in the first two seasons, like the witches for instance.
From the elegant yelling of this compelling dispute comes the ghastly suspicion my opposition's a fruit.

User avatar
rieschen
Posts: 135
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2012 9:35 am UTC

Re: Is White Dominance Exaggerated?

Postby rieschen » Sat Jul 19, 2014 9:57 am UTC

The earliest example I can think of would be "Bloody Mary", which is sometime in early season 1. But yeah, it's a ... really low bar. I guess SPN is actually pretty good proof of just how low it is.

morriswalters
Posts: 7073
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 12:21 am UTC

Re: Is White Dominance Exaggerated?

Postby morriswalters » Sat Jul 19, 2014 2:22 pm UTC

Fix the problems behind the camera and you'll have fewer in front of them. I suggest that male writers are clueless about what women discuss when they aren't present, I certainly am. My experience is that men don't talk in film or TV like they do in life, and I suggest that women don't either. I am also certain that nobody wants to watch a movie written that way.

User avatar
gmalivuk
GNU Terry Pratchett
Posts: 26767
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:02 pm UTC
Location: Here and There
Contact:

Re: Is White Dominance Exaggerated?

Postby gmalivuk » Sat Jul 19, 2014 2:40 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:My experience is that men don't talk in film or TV like they do in life, and I suggest that women don't either. I am also certain that nobody wants to watch a movie written that way.
Written what way?

The way I read this implies that you're certain nobody wants to watch a movie written the way that, in your experience, most film and TV is already written, which doesn't make any sense.
Unless stated otherwise, I do not care whether a statement, by itself, constitutes a persuasive political argument. I care whether it's true.
---
If this post has math that doesn't work for you, use TeX the World for Firefox or Chrome

(he/him/his)

morriswalters
Posts: 7073
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 12:21 am UTC

Re: Is White Dominance Exaggerated?

Postby morriswalters » Sat Jul 19, 2014 3:05 pm UTC

As in dialog. Scripts, ect. Real life is boring. When I next talk to a close friend of mine it will concern a white water trip that he took to Idaho. As interesting as it might be for me and him, I am fairly certain it wouldn't sell tickets. Scripts and dialog are written to move a story.

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 10499
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: Is White Dominance Exaggerated?

Postby CorruptUser » Sat Jul 19, 2014 3:57 pm UTC

Except Kevin Smith movies. And Quentin Tarantino. And every other director where you get immersed in the characters.

User avatar
gmalivuk
GNU Terry Pratchett
Posts: 26767
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:02 pm UTC
Location: Here and There
Contact:

Re: Is White Dominance Exaggerated?

Postby gmalivuk » Sat Jul 19, 2014 5:10 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:As in dialog. Scripts, ect. Real life is boring. When I next talk to a close friend of mine it will concern a white water trip that he took to Idaho. As interesting as it might be for me and him, I am fairly certain it wouldn't sell tickets. Scripts and dialog are written to move a story.

Ah, gotcha, so "that way" meant how people talk in real life.

I agree that making all scripted conversations 100% realistic might be boring, but they've still got to be fairly realistic, or the characters themselves become unbelievable. And I don't mean unbelievable in the sense that fantasy elements are unbelievable, like Thor existing in the first place, I mean unbelievable in the far more important sense that they'd cease being humanized characters that I give a shit about.

And things like the actual topics of conversation don't need to be true to life in settings that are themselves sci-fi or fantasy. Same thing is true of different races or sexualities. Like, sure, there's an argument to be made, however flimsy, that the underlying backstory would necessarily be different if Spiderman were a bisexual black kid instead of a straight white kid. But what about high fantasy or futuristic science fiction? Same goes for pretty much everything else in the real world that changes based on race or gender or sexuality.

The original Star Trek was progressive for having Uhura and Sulu, but a movie reboot made in the 21st century whose main cast is all white dudes except for the one Asian guy and the one light-skinned black woman? Not actually progressive any more. It's supposed to be a future Earth that has lost many of its old prejudices. What better way to show that than by having ships crewed by a statistically accurate demographic cross-section and no one in the story who thinks anyone's race or gender or sexuality is worth commenting on.

Harry Potter's wizarding world is super hung up on issues of wizard blood and non-human races, but it's pretty believable that they wouldn't care about things like skin color or nationality or sexuality. So much else is completely disconnected from the ways muggles see the world, so why not that as well? (And as previously mentioned, it would have been super easy to make any number of side characters canonically anything other than straight and white, beyond the few PoC who were included, without changing the overall story even a little bit.)
Unless stated otherwise, I do not care whether a statement, by itself, constitutes a persuasive political argument. I care whether it's true.
---
If this post has math that doesn't work for you, use TeX the World for Firefox or Chrome

(he/him/his)

morriswalters
Posts: 7073
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 12:21 am UTC

Re: Is White Dominance Exaggerated?

Postby morriswalters » Sat Jul 19, 2014 5:29 pm UTC

Yeah, sorry for being unclear. Probably unreasonable on my part, but if you are going to, say mainstream Gay characters, then put them in the spotlight, even if being Gay it isn't important to the story. If you can once establish the character as openly Gay, even if it is never central to the storyline, and you can make it entertaining, then you can bring people along for the ride. Tokens won't get it done. Female Thor, for instance, could be a great idea, but only if it isn't male Thor in drag. I'm not sure if Marvel has the balls to take it where it needs to go. And is a women writing?

Mambrino
Posts: 388
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:45 pm UTC
Location: No we don't have polar bears. Except in zoos.

Re: Is White Dominance Exaggerated?

Postby Mambrino » Sun Jul 20, 2014 4:15 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:Harry Potter's wizarding world is super hung up on issues of wizard blood and non-human races, but it's pretty believable that they wouldn't care about things like skin color or nationality or sexuality. So much else is completely disconnected from the ways muggles see the world, so why not that as well? (And as previously mentioned, it would have been super easy to make any number of side characters canonically anything other than straight and white, beyond the few PoC who were included, without changing the overall story even a little bit.)


I thought Rowling might given a pass precisely because the issues with muggle-borns, werewolves, house-elfs and other instances of Fantastic Racism are quite clearly an allegory, given the world of Potter is sort of a 1930s (or maybe 1950s? I don't know the genre very well) boarding school story, set in 1990s (except for the wizarding world which is firmly in the Victorian- whatever).

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 10499
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: Is White Dominance Exaggerated?

Postby CorruptUser » Sun Jul 20, 2014 5:16 am UTC

There was one character that was black in the early films, but when it turned out the plot in a later movie called for her to have a romance with a major (white) character, she was white. Because a black girl is not allowed to date a white boy. That or she defeated the Balrog but died and came back.

User avatar
gmalivuk
GNU Terry Pratchett
Posts: 26767
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:02 pm UTC
Location: Here and There
Contact:

Re: Is White Dominance Exaggerated?

Postby gmalivuk » Sun Jul 20, 2014 12:51 pm UTC

Mambrino wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:Harry Potter's wizarding world is super hung up on issues of wizard blood and non-human races, but it's pretty believable that they wouldn't care about things like skin color or nationality or sexuality. So much else is completely disconnected from the ways muggles see the world, so why not that as well? (And as previously mentioned, it would have been super easy to make any number of side characters canonically anything other than straight and white, beyond the few PoC who were included, without changing the overall story even a little bit.)

I thought Rowling might given a pass precisely because the issues with muggle-borns, werewolves, house-elfs and other instances of Fantastic Racism are quite clearly an allegory

So if you have goblins and elves it's okay for your casting to be racist against human beings?
Unless stated otherwise, I do not care whether a statement, by itself, constitutes a persuasive political argument. I care whether it's true.
---
If this post has math that doesn't work for you, use TeX the World for Firefox or Chrome

(he/him/his)

morriswalters
Posts: 7073
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 12:21 am UTC

Re: Is White Dominance Exaggerated?

Postby morriswalters » Sun Jul 20, 2014 3:13 pm UTC

Yes. Never muddle your message. She, in the books, spent a lot of time on allegories for racism and mixed marriages(the last in at least two different ways). As did the movies. Your idea seems to be to cram everything into the movie and worry about it selling later. The movie had a multi ethnic cast. If Dumbledore wasn't gay, the book certainly suggested it, since the only close relationship that is ever talked about is with a man.

User avatar
gmalivuk
GNU Terry Pratchett
Posts: 26767
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:02 pm UTC
Location: Here and There
Contact:

Re: Is White Dominance Exaggerated?

Postby gmalivuk » Sun Jul 20, 2014 3:47 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:Yes. Never muddle your message.
Right. I always forget that it's necessary to be racist against real people in order to portray allegorical racism against fantasy creatures.
Unless stated otherwise, I do not care whether a statement, by itself, constitutes a persuasive political argument. I care whether it's true.
---
If this post has math that doesn't work for you, use TeX the World for Firefox or Chrome

(he/him/his)

morriswalters
Posts: 7073
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 12:21 am UTC

Re: Is White Dominance Exaggerated?

Postby morriswalters » Sun Jul 20, 2014 4:20 pm UTC

You haven't demonstrated real racism. Not as related to Harry Potter books or the movies. The thing about your tests is that while they tell you something, what they tell you may or may not be useful in this context. The makeup of the cast may or have may not have been racist. You assert it without evidence, other than the numbers of people you think should have been cast. How many subtexts on racism should either Rowling or the Movie people have crammed in to make it "correct"?

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 10499
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: Is White Dominance Exaggerated?

Postby CorruptUser » Sun Jul 20, 2014 4:35 pm UTC

How about not changing Lavender Brown (had to look it up), a black character in the first 5 movies, to a white one in the sixth movie when she dates Ron Weasling?
Last edited by CorruptUser on Sun Jul 20, 2014 4:37 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
gmalivuk
GNU Terry Pratchett
Posts: 26767
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:02 pm UTC
Location: Here and There
Contact:

Re: Is White Dominance Exaggerated?

Postby gmalivuk » Sun Jul 20, 2014 4:37 pm UTC

You don't need "subtexts on racism", whateverthefuck you think that means. You just need to do little things like not change characters from black to white once they have a relationship with a main character. (Edit: to be accurate, she'd only shown up in two of the first 5 movies, and was played by a different (black) actress each time.)

The whole point I was making with Harry Potter and Star Trek was that you can have diverse characters without saying anything about their race, either textually or subtextually, because you're portraying a world where old-fashioned human racial divisions don't matter.

The way to portray such a world is to have a diverse set of characters, not to just make everyone white. Just like the proper way to show that sexism no longer plays a role in the world is by having a roughly even mix of male and female characters, not by making everyone male.

(Yes, I know that Harry Potter isn't all white, but the people who aren't, as I recall, make up a small enough minority of characters to be considered tokenism rather than any real effort at portraying a realistic cross-section of the population.)
Unless stated otherwise, I do not care whether a statement, by itself, constitutes a persuasive political argument. I care whether it's true.
---
If this post has math that doesn't work for you, use TeX the World for Firefox or Chrome

(he/him/his)

morriswalters
Posts: 7073
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 12:21 am UTC

Re: Is White Dominance Exaggerated?

Postby morriswalters » Sun Jul 20, 2014 5:28 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:The whole point I was making with Harry Potter and Star Trek was that you can have diverse characters without saying anything about their race, either textually or subtextually, because you're portraying a world where old-fashioned human racial divisions don't matter.
Bullshit. Stories carry shows. As forward thinking as Rodenberry was, his show kept his women in revealing mini skirts. And when he dealt with racism directly it was never black against white. He had to sell it to the public that existed at the time it was made. It limped through three seasons and never had high ratings.
gmalivuk wrote:The way to portray such a world is to have a diverse set of characters, not to just make everyone white. Just like the proper way to show that sexism no longer plays a role in the world is by having a roughly even mix of male and female characters, not by making everyone male.
What you want to do is to push an agenda, not tell a story. She pushed her agenda but she also had to tell a story. It's lightning in a bottle and at some level it resonated. She had two forms of biracial marriage, werewolf and witch, and witch and muggle. Both couples are murdered. Do you think that she should had thrown in a third subtext of white and black. Why not take a hammer and beat the reader over the head. It isn't paint by numbers, and the public at large is not color blind or free of bias regarding sexual orientation or gender. You kind of get burned no matter what you do.

By the way this would be the best definition of my use of the word subtext, from the Wikipedia. Again if I wasn't clear you have my mea culpa.
Subtext can also be used to imply controversial subjects without specifically alienating people from the fiction, often through use of metaphor.

User avatar
gmalivuk
GNU Terry Pratchett
Posts: 26767
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:02 pm UTC
Location: Here and There
Contact:

Re: Is White Dominance Exaggerated?

Postby gmalivuk » Sun Jul 20, 2014 5:42 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:And when he dealt with racism directly it was never black against white.
Why do you think this contradicts what I said? I said you can have a diverse cast without making the show about that specific diversity. My entire point is that the way to show a world without racism is to have a mix of races without that being the focus. And your response is to call bullshit, before explaining that this is exactly what TOS did?

(And for its time, that was a diverse cast. My point earlier was about the reboots, because in the 21st century it's no longer progressive to have just one woman on the crew.)

Do you think that she should had thrown in a third subtext of white and black. Why not take a hammer and beat the reader over the head.
How the fuck would having an interracial couple, just present and not an issue for any of the other characters, be beating the reader over the head with anything?

Edit: And who do you think would skip watching the movies, but who otherwise would have, based on the presence of an interracial couple? Would it have been enough to lose significant profits? Should you care overmuch when people so racist they can't handle an incidental interracial relationship decide not to watch your movie? It's not like they worried about the fundies who boycotted it because it taught kids to be witches or whatever.
Unless stated otherwise, I do not care whether a statement, by itself, constitutes a persuasive political argument. I care whether it's true.
---
If this post has math that doesn't work for you, use TeX the World for Firefox or Chrome

(he/him/his)

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 10499
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: Is White Dominance Exaggerated?

Postby CorruptUser » Sun Jul 20, 2014 5:56 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
Do you think that she should had thrown in a third subtext of white and black. Why not take a hammer and beat the reader over the head.
How the fuck would having an interracial couple, just present and not an issue for any of the other characters, be beating the reader over the head with anything?


It WAS in the 60's. As was the original Star Trek. A WOMAN in any position of authority? A BLACK woman in a position of authority? A white man and a black woman KISSING? Today we wouldn't even notice, and we'd turn around and point out that the black woman had the least important role on the ship, and that kiss was under mind control, therefore the show was racist. But it wasn't back then.

User avatar
LaserGuy
Posts: 4582
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:33 pm UTC

Re: Is White Dominance Exaggerated?

Postby LaserGuy » Sun Jul 20, 2014 6:01 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:
Do you think that she should had thrown in a third subtext of white and black. Why not take a hammer and beat the reader over the head.
How the fuck would having an interracial couple, just present and not an issue for any of the other characters, be beating the reader over the head with anything?


It WAS in the 60's. As was the original Star Trek. A WOMAN in any position of authority? A BLACK woman in a position of authority? A white man and a black woman KISSING? Today we wouldn't even notice, and we'd turn around and point out that the black woman had the least important role on the ship, and that kiss was under mind control, therefore the show was racist. But it wasn't back then.


I think this is in reference the character in Harry Potter changing race from black to white when she needed to have a romance with Ron.

User avatar
gmalivuk
GNU Terry Pratchett
Posts: 26767
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:02 pm UTC
Location: Here and There
Contact:

Re: Is White Dominance Exaggerated?

Postby gmalivuk » Sun Jul 20, 2014 6:20 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:
Do you think that she should had thrown in a third subtext of white and black. Why not take a hammer and beat the reader over the head.
How the fuck would having an interracial couple, just present and not an issue for any of the other characters, be beating the reader over the head with anything?
It WAS in the 60's.

Great.

Pay attention.

Harry Potter was not set in the 60s, nor was that when the movies were made.
Unless stated otherwise, I do not care whether a statement, by itself, constitutes a persuasive political argument. I care whether it's true.
---
If this post has math that doesn't work for you, use TeX the World for Firefox or Chrome

(he/him/his)

User avatar
Lucrece
Posts: 3558
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 12:01 am UTC

Re: Is White Dominance Exaggerated?

Postby Lucrece » Sun Jul 20, 2014 7:06 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Name some major movies with a serious gay main character that didn't clean up at the Oscars.

Milk
Brokeback Mountain
Philadelphia
Capote

I'd include The Birdcage, but that didn't clean up. The foreign movie it was based on got 3 nominations though...



Milk pretty much was an oscar grab movie. It was barely marketed, hell down here in Florida I had to drive all the way to Ft. Lauderdale from Miami to watch it.

Brokeback Mountain was condescendingly joked about over and over, and it's pretty much a stereotyped movie. Doomed gay love affair that once again wasn't even available in many theaters.

Philadelphia wasn't about the guy guy. It was about the straight homophobic black guy who gained some humanity by interacting with the gay dude. It was depicted strictly through the straight person's perspective. The screentime with Antonio Banderas and Tom Hanks made them pretty much a ghost couple to not offend straight sensibilities.

Capote couldn't have been possibly more stereotypical. It was about the malicious gossipmongering misunderstood sissy.

These are hardly groundbreaking depictions of gay people.
Belial wrote:That's charming, Nancy, but all I hear when you talk is a bunch of yippy dog sounds.

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 10499
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: Is White Dominance Exaggerated?

Postby CorruptUser » Sun Jul 20, 2014 7:18 pm UTC

Lucrece wrote:These are hardly groundbreaking depictions of gay people.


Not today, but they were when they came out. That a gay guy could be a major character? That said gay guy could be in any way at all sympathetic? Even if it is camp, it really is doing something that wasn't done before.

I mean, it's like complaining that the Wright Brother's plane was a piece junk.

User avatar
Lucrece
Posts: 3558
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 12:01 am UTC

Re: Is White Dominance Exaggerated?

Postby Lucrece » Sun Jul 20, 2014 8:28 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:
Lucrece wrote:These are hardly groundbreaking depictions of gay people.


Not today, but they were when they came out. That a gay guy could be a major character? That said gay guy could be in any way at all sympathetic? Even if it is camp, it really is doing something that wasn't done before.

I mean, it's like complaining that the Wright Brother's plane was a piece junk.



Which still does nothing for the underserved minority populations who want to skip the "baby steps" and have something similar to what the dominant groups have had for ages.
Belial wrote:That's charming, Nancy, but all I hear when you talk is a bunch of yippy dog sounds.

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 10499
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: Is White Dominance Exaggerated?

Postby CorruptUser » Sun Jul 20, 2014 8:35 pm UTC

It's not a choice between "baby steps" and utopia, it's a choice between "baby steps" and nothing.

Perhaps I'm wrong and things could move faster. If that is indeed the case, then please, show the fastest real life scenario in which any minority group has gained equality in any significant society.

User avatar
gmalivuk
GNU Terry Pratchett
Posts: 26767
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:02 pm UTC
Location: Here and There
Contact:

Re: Is White Dominance Exaggerated?

Postby gmalivuk » Sun Jul 20, 2014 9:45 pm UTC

It's always easy for people who aren't facing any discrimination to tell people who are to "wait" or "be patient".

Martin Luther King, Jr. wrote:Perhaps it is easy for those who have never felt the stinging darts of segregation to say, "Wait." But when you have seen vicious mobs lynch your mothers and fathers at will and drown your sisters and brothers at whim; when you have seen hate filled policemen curse, kick and even kill your black brothers and sisters; when you see the vast majority of your twenty million Negro brothers smothering in an airtight cage of poverty in the midst of an affluent society; when you suddenly find your tongue twisted and your speech stammering as you seek to explain to your six year old daughter why she can't go to the public amusement park that has just been advertised on television, and see tears welling up in her eyes when she is told that Funtown is closed to colored children, and see ominous clouds of inferiority beginning to form in her little mental sky, and see her beginning to distort her personality by developing an unconscious bitterness toward white people; when you have to concoct an answer for a five year old son who is asking: "Daddy, why do white people treat colored people so mean?"; when you take a cross county drive and find it necessary to sleep night after night in the uncomfortable corners of your automobile because no motel will accept you; when you are humiliated day in and day out by nagging signs reading "white" and "colored"; when your first name becomes "nigger," your middle name becomes "boy" (however old you are) and your last name becomes "John," and your wife and mother are never given the respected title "Mrs."; when you are harried by day and haunted by night by the fact that you are a Negro, living constantly at tiptoe stance, never quite knowing what to expect next, and are plagued with inner fears and outer resentments; when you are forever fighting a degenerating sense of "nobodiness"--then you will understand why we find it difficult to wait. There comes a time when the cup of endurance runs over, and men are no longer willing to be plunged into the abyss of despair.
Unless stated otherwise, I do not care whether a statement, by itself, constitutes a persuasive political argument. I care whether it's true.
---
If this post has math that doesn't work for you, use TeX the World for Firefox or Chrome

(he/him/his)

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 10499
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: Is White Dominance Exaggerated?

Postby CorruptUser » Sun Jul 20, 2014 10:11 pm UTC

What makes you think I don't face discrimination? There are places I will not go in my own country, and this is the US. There are parts of my hometown where I knew to avoid. Half the code words used in every conspiracy theory out there are indirectly calling for my genocide.

This isn't a case of "look, we are only cutting off one hand instead both, stop whining", it's a case of improper depictions in the media. Yes, work to fix them, but if progress is being made, applaud the progress and encourage them to make more progress rather than berating them for making not enough progress.

morriswalters
Posts: 7073
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 12:21 am UTC

Re: Is White Dominance Exaggerated?

Postby morriswalters » Mon Jul 21, 2014 12:49 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:I said you can have a diverse cast without making the show about that specific diversity. My entire point is that the way to show a world without racism is to have a mix of races without that being the focus. And your response is to call bullshit, before explaining that this is exactly what TOS did?
And TOS failed to win an audience. They committed the greatest sin of all, they were unsuccessful. And it wasn't really that diverse. However if that doesn't meet you point, pardon my ignorance.
gmalivuk wrote:Edit: And who do you think would skip watching the movies, but who otherwise would have, based on the presence of an interracial couple? Would it have been enough to lose significant profits? Should you care overmuch when people so racist they can't handle an incidental interracial relationship decide not to watch your movie? It's not like they worried about the fundies who boycotted it because it taught kids to be witches or whatever.
I don't know. But the people who publish books aren't there to take risks. And the people who cast movies won't either, particularly not on a movie aimed at children.
CorruptUser wrote:It's not a choice between "baby steps" and utopia, it's a choice between "baby steps" and nothing.
No it isn't. But neither are they going to be tent pole movies. Sticking somebody in the background just so they can be there does nothing. Those are called tokens and they are used to make it look like you are doing something when you aren't. Niche television and movies are a start. Whatever Broke Back Mountain was, it wouldn't have been made in 1970.
gmalivuk wrote:It's always easy for people who aren't facing any discrimination to tell people who are to "wait" or "be patient".
Then take it to the streets, that's what they did in 68. I don't think MLK was talking about tokens in popular entertainment, And I don't think you have any idea of how things were when he made that statement.

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 10499
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: Is White Dominance Exaggerated?

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Jul 21, 2014 1:00 am UTC

morriswalters wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:It's not a choice between "baby steps" and utopia, it's a choice between "baby steps" and nothing.
No it isn't. But neither are they going to be tent pole movies. Sticking somebody in the background just so they can be there does nothing. Those are called tokens and they are used to make it look like you are doing something when you aren't. Niche television and movies are a start. Whatever Broke Back Mountain was, it wouldn't have been made in 1970.


I agree. That was my point. While Capote and Brokeback Mountain and Milk and so forth may be camp and cheesy, the fact that they were made at all is an accomplishment. Always keep moving forward, push the envelope as far as it can be pushed, but don't sabatoge progress because it doesn't go far enough. Sure in comparison the older stuff will seem pathetically tame as we move forward, but that's kind of the goal.

User avatar
gmalivuk
GNU Terry Pratchett
Posts: 26767
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:02 pm UTC
Location: Here and There
Contact:

Re: Is White Dominance Exaggerated?

Postby gmalivuk » Mon Jul 21, 2014 1:12 am UTC

morriswalters wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:Edit: And who do you think would skip watching the movies, but who otherwise would have, based on the presence of an interracial couple? Would it have been enough to lose significant profits? Should you care overmuch when people so racist they can't handle an incidental interracial relationship decide not to watch your movie? It's not like they worried about the fundies who boycotted it because it taught kids to be witches or whatever.
I don't know. But the people who publish books aren't there to take risks. And the people who cast movies won't either, particularly not on a movie aimed at children.
You're begging the question by assuming it's risky in the first place.

Yes, that might be how producers and publishers and bookstores rationalize their racism, but it doesn't mean it's true.

Edit: If it is such a risk, why haven't other shows with PoC characters in interracial relationships failed? If TOS wasn't successful because of Uhura, why didn't I Love Lucy fail? Why is Elementary so successful, beating out even Game of Thrones, if audiences are really put off by a WoC main character? It's too bad no one watched the Last Airbender with all its canonically nonwhite characters, so the movie version had to be all Caucasion to be so much more well received...

Then take it to the streets, that's what they did in 68. I don't think MLK was talking about tokens in popular entertainment, And I don't think you have any idea of how things were when he made that statement.
I'm not talking about tokenism, either, and you can't change that just by declaring otherwise.

And the letter from the Birmingham jail wasn't about representation, sure, but that is damn well what MLK was talking about when he urged Nichelle Nichols not to leave Star Trek, because of how important it was for his kids to see someone in that sort of role who looked like them.
Unless stated otherwise, I do not care whether a statement, by itself, constitutes a persuasive political argument. I care whether it's true.
---
If this post has math that doesn't work for you, use TeX the World for Firefox or Chrome

(he/him/his)

User avatar
Crissa
Posts: 294
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2011 8:06 pm UTC

Re: Is White Dominance Exaggerated?

Postby Crissa » Mon Jul 21, 2014 2:36 am UTC

Well, for one, Elementary has more viewers than there are HBO subscribers. So the audience for Game of Thrones is highly limited before you get to content.

But I think that wasn't what you meant.

-Crissa

User avatar
gmalivuk
GNU Terry Pratchett
Posts: 26767
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:02 pm UTC
Location: Here and There
Contact:

Re: Is White Dominance Exaggerated?

Postby gmalivuk » Mon Jul 21, 2014 2:44 am UTC

Elementary has a bigger audience even when you add in torrents of Game of Thrones, though.
Unless stated otherwise, I do not care whether a statement, by itself, constitutes a persuasive political argument. I care whether it's true.
---
If this post has math that doesn't work for you, use TeX the World for Firefox or Chrome

(he/him/his)

User avatar
Crissa
Posts: 294
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2011 8:06 pm UTC

Re: Is White Dominance Exaggerated?

Postby Crissa » Mon Jul 21, 2014 2:59 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:Elementary has a bigger audience even when you add in torrents of Game of Thrones, though.

How many people even torrent? Is it a million?

-Crissa


Return to “Serious Business”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests