Why is there a need to be labeled? (gender, sexuality, etc)

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HungryHobo
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Re: Why is there a need to be labeled? (gender, sexuality, e

Postby HungryHobo » Thu Jan 08, 2015 10:43 am UTC

Azrael wrote:He wouldn't know if gender and sex are different. So, what influences this ogling?


I think this is where the dispute is, you're trying to imply that because gender and sex aren't absoltuely 100% certain all the time always to be the same then obviously he must have some other motivation.
That is a very bad argument.

Johnny, wanting to casually rate whether he'd enjoy getting his dick wet in passers-by, can continue on his way unknowing that his sexing based on gender was wrong this time with zero effect. And that's why it's gender that matters for these interactions. For Johnny to realize this, he just has to accept that there's a difference between every female-projecting person he sees and people who he might actually have sex with.


I'm no longer assuming good faith on your part, you're going back to the attempts to guilt/belittle people. Saying you aren't and then repeatedly doing so doesn't add up to not doing so. Fun side note, people like to complain when doctors in stories are always male but people don't complain so much when the sex obsessesed person in stories is always male.

But women catagorise everyone around them just as much. You keep failing to read the posts you reply to, Jonny, or Jane don't need to be consciously deciding who they're going to fuck. it's simply that it's an important enough topic to the lizard part of their brain that they're categorising in the same way that they recognise that the burger in the shop is food while the gravel is not.

it may only be functionally relevant when they try to take a bite but it's still something that get's categorised in the background constantly.

They don't have to realise anything. Because realising anything is utterly utterly irrelevant to this. It's not an enlightened free choice they're making.

But all that is just about why it *feels* important to people and why our brains are so stunningly good at recognising subtle markers related to the matter even from hundreds of feet away.

The mere fact that our brains are very very good at recognising these categories is going to mean that they get used for other things in society like aiding in identification.

Azrael wrote: Why does the IRS* need to know (as you seem to suggest they do) which genitalia I have? I have an entirely unique personal identification number registered with the Federal government. And a state one, for that matter.


Why do they need a photo? why do they need any other description of you at all? why do they need your age? or height? they've got the magic all powerful number!

most of that other info is to help make it harder for someone to pretend to be you, if your information says you're a 25 year old short female and a 60 year old tall greying male turns up then they have a good reason to double check that the person in front of them is really you.

male/female is 99% of the time a really good one because it cuts out 48 to 49 ish % of the population off the bat with very few unclear cases.
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Re: Why is there a need to be labeled? (gender, sexuality, e

Postby BattleMoose » Thu Jan 08, 2015 1:24 pm UTC

HungryHobo wrote:most of that other info is to help make it harder for someone to pretend to be you, if your information says you're a 25 year old short female and a 60 year old tall greying male turns up then they have a good reason to double check that the person in front of them is really you.

male/female is 99% of the time a really good one because it cuts out 48 to 49 ish % of the population off the bat with very few unclear cases.


We are talking about transgendered individuals here. Who commonly present as their gender and not their sex. In many instances a cop will see the licence, see "male" and see a female driving. This is the current situation and its not great.

And then there will probably be an unpleasant altercation about that persons gender, just some more of you know, society wholesale rejecting who you are.

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Re: Why is there a need to be labeled? (gender, sexuality, e

Postby Azrael » Thu Jan 08, 2015 1:35 pm UTC

HungryHobo wrote:
Azrael wrote:He wouldn't know if gender and sex are different. So, what influences this ogling?
I think this is where the dispute is, you're trying to imply that because gender and sex aren't absoltuely 100% certain all the time always to be the same then obviously he must have some other motivation.
That is a very bad argument.
... that is not even remotely close to what I'm saying.

HungryHobo wrote:I'm no longer assuming good faith on your part, you're going back to the attempts to guilt/belittle people. Saying you aren't and then repeatedly doing so doesn't add up to not doing so

Funny story, I've been mocking the "lizard brain" or sex-first mentality exactly since I told you I was mocking it. Not before, and entirely consistently since. If you'd like to understand why, you can address the discussion regarding the times when a gender decision isn't made to assess direct sexual compatibility.

But what I'm not assuming is *anything* about a person's motivations. Well, except that your assessment of their sex-first (well, sex-only) motivations to gender is worthy of playful derision. If you want to operate in lizard-brain analogy, great. I mean, it's silly. But it will work to make my point.

HungryHobo wrote:But women catagorise everyone around them just as much. You keep failing to read the posts you reply to, Jonny, or Jane don't need to be consciously deciding who they're going to fuck. it's simply that it's an important enough topic to the lizard part of their brain that they're categorising in the same way that they recognise that the burger in the shop is food while the gravel is not.

Yes, I am reading. Just because I disagree with you, or see the situation differently does not mean I don't understand what you're saying or haven't been listening. We could trade "no you don't understand" or "you aren't reading" all day. Especially given how wildly off-base your restatement of my point is above. But I know better, and I bet you do to. So stop it.

Alright, on to clarifying my point:

What the lizard brain is measuring is gender. It cares because the lizard brain thinks that's the same as sex. But we -- with the help of non lizard brains -- know that isn't always the case, right? No, really. I'm pretty certain that we aren't arguing over some underlying disagreement that sex and gender are the same, but let me know otherwise.

You've been laboring the point that Jane's lizard brain is inherently interested in sex. I don't disagree. But it can only read gender. That's my point, almost exclusively. For the purposes of the input-output black box gender is the only relevant input the lizard brain has in these situations to make a determination of sex. Because an underlying difference in between outward gender and actual sex is unmeasurable to the lizard brain, it wouldn't effect the output of the lizard brain's judgement. Can't. Doesn't. Lizard brain is reading gender and using that to assume a sex. Because lizard brains are primitive, hardwired and super horny, we can forgive the occasional mistake.

What effects that determination? Gender. Exclusively.

If Jane gets to the point where she's in imminent danger of having sexual relations, sex may (or may not, who knows besides Jane) become the overriding bit very, very quickly. But in the chance, momentary encounters where she's invoking the lizard brain's firmware? It's gender markers that drive the assessment.

HungryHobo wrote:
Azrael wrote:Why does the IRS* need to know (as you seem to suggest they do) which genitalia I have? I have an entirely unique personal identification number registered with the Federal government. And a state one, for that matter.

Why do they need a photo? why do they need any other description of you at all? why do they need your age? or height? they've got the magic all powerful number!

Yeah, you're arguing my own point for me. Quite well actually. Gender is used as a descriptive purpose for identification. Because they aren't lifting skirts to check on sex.

morriswalters wrote:I suggest they use gender because they have been using gender. It is baked in to the culture. Every one, at least that I'm aware of. It is baked in deep, so deep in fact we try to act like it isn't what it is.

Absolutely. Gender. We're at the point where we understand that sex and gender can be different, so the determination regarding identity falls squarely with gender, not sex. Again, no one is checking genitals in the grocery line to see if 17 year old male Adrian is using 21 year old female Adrian's ID.

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Re: Why is there a need to be labeled? (gender, sexuality, e

Postby morriswalters » Thu Jan 08, 2015 4:42 pm UTC

Azrael wrote:Absolutely. Gender. We're at the point where we understand that sex and gender can be different, so the determination regarding identity falls squarely with gender, not sex. Again, no one is checking genitals in the grocery line to see if 17 year old male Adrian is using 21 year old female Adrian's ID.
Ok, I'm with that. But self identification, in and of itself is about the physical, or the lack of it. I infer that surgery to correct gender misalignment's are a bow to the fact that gender is irretrievably tied to sex. The want the physical part to match the emotional and mental part. I'm not saying that everybody, every time is wanting to bump uglies. If the physical sexual part wasn't important, than reassignment could be as simple as wearing a dress or a pair of pants. They give you the assumed look. I'll change my phraseology to sexual physiology from sex although they are intertwined. Would a physically male transgender be satisfied with the identity of female without the physicality?

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Re: Why is there a need to be labeled? (gender, sexuality, e

Postby gmalivuk » Thu Jan 08, 2015 6:07 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote: Would a physically male transgender be satisfied with the identity of female without the physicality?
If I'm parsing your shitty wording correctly, you're asking if a trans woman can be satisfied with her femaleness even if she still has a penis?

Yes, absolutely 100%. Non-op trans people are real.
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Re: Why is there a need to be labeled? (gender, sexuality, e

Postby Azrael » Thu Jan 08, 2015 7:17 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:Would a physically male transgender be satisfied with the identity of female without the physicality?

And earlier you asked what a trans person's holy grail would be, so I guess we can't keep ignoring the question:

I have no idea. We can't. I assume the answer changes dramatically from individual to individual, and maybe over time too. But I do know that trying to make a logical inference such as you are (that gender and sex must be linked or else no one would want a surgical reassignment) is guaranteed to be wrong. Because, per Gmal, people exist.

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Re: Why is there a need to be labeled? (gender, sexuality, e

Postby morriswalters » Thu Jan 08, 2015 7:52 pm UTC

Azrael wrote:And earlier you asked what a trans person's holy grail would be, so I guess we can't keep ignoring the question:

I have no idea. We can't. I assume the answer changes dramatically from individual to individual, and maybe over time too. But I do know that trying to make a logical inference such as you are (that gender and sex must be linked or else no one would want a surgical reassignment) is guaranteed to be wrong.
Why? I assume before we developed the intelligence to create clothing that we ran around naked. Even assuming that clothing was purely a response to environmental factors, we ended up here. High fashion and all. So to take the reasoning to the extreme, what would removing the clothes do? Remove the enabling factors. Cosmetics, plunging necklines, and all the accoutrements. And what would being trans mean? Gender as you describe it is an artifact of clothing. I'm quite sure that trans people would still exist, but how would they express it?

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Re: Why is there a need to be labeled? (gender, sexuality, e

Postby KrytenKoro » Thu Jan 08, 2015 8:13 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:
Azrael wrote:And earlier you asked what a trans person's holy grail would be, so I guess we can't keep ignoring the question:

I have no idea. We can't. I assume the answer changes dramatically from individual to individual, and maybe over time too. But I do know that trying to make a logical inference such as you are (that gender and sex must be linked or else no one would want a surgical reassignment) is guaranteed to be wrong.
Why? I assume before we developed the intelligence to create clothing that we ran around naked. Even assuming that clothing was purely a response to environmental factors, we ended up here. High fashion and all. So to take the reasoning to the extreme, what would removing the clothes do? Remove the enabling factors. Cosmetics, plunging necklines, and all the accoutrements. And what would being trans mean? Gender as you describe it is an artifact of clothing. I'm quite sure that trans people would still exist, but how would they express it?

So....just a question, then.

How do your and HH's conceptions account for hermaphrodites, transexuals, those who are sterile, those who are asexual, and any others without the standard "XY, with penis and desire to put sperm in females" and "XX, with vagina and desire to get sperm put in them to make a baby"?
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Re: Why is there a need to be labeled? (gender, sexuality, e

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Jan 08, 2015 8:35 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:
Azrael wrote:Absolutely. Gender. We're at the point where we understand that sex and gender can be different, so the determination regarding identity falls squarely with gender, not sex. Again, no one is checking genitals in the grocery line to see if 17 year old male Adrian is using 21 year old female Adrian's ID.
Ok, I'm with that. But self identification, in and of itself is about the physical, or the lack of it. I infer that surgery to correct gender misalignment's are a bow to the fact that gender is irretrievably tied to sex. The want the physical part to match the emotional and mental part. I'm not saying that everybody, every time is wanting to bump uglies. If the physical sexual part wasn't important, than reassignment could be as simple as wearing a dress or a pair of pants. They give you the assumed look. I'll change my phraseology to sexual physiology from sex although they are intertwined. Would a physically male transgender be satisfied with the identity of female without the physicality?


Maybe, maybe not. People vary a lot, and want different things.

We're playing a giant video game, in which we are biological computers atop meat-wrapped skeletons, and nobody bothered to print a manual. I wouldn't worry overly much about everyone wanting the same thing. We're all just doin' whatever.

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Re: Why is there a need to be labeled? (gender, sexuality, e

Postby poochyena » Thu Jan 08, 2015 8:38 pm UTC

Still kinda sick, so i can't make too many replies.

azule wrote:I chose to focus on non gendered colors

ugh
colors are colors
they are not gendered until you tell someone it is.

No one is going to think blue = boy until you tell them

anyways, another example of people care more about sex than gender
blue and pink is just a simple way for other people to know the sex of the child, its not forcing the kid to conform to gender roles, that ridiculous.

Whats next, giving the child a transformers blanket is forcing him to like transformers? "what is he grows up not liking transformers!?!"

I feel its just a color, and some people waaaay over think it.

Azrael wrote:
HungryHobo wrote:
Azrael wrote:Why does the IRS* need to know (as you seem to suggest they do) which genitalia I have? I have an entirely unique personal identification number registered with the Federal government. And a state one, for that matter.

Why do they need a photo? why do they need any other description of you at all? why do they need your age? or height? they've got the magic all powerful number!

Yeah, you're arguing my own point for me. Quite well actually. Gender is used as a descriptive purpose for identification. Because they aren't lifting skirts to check on sex.


Like he said
HungryHobo wrote:most of that other info is to help make it harder for someone to pretend to be you, if your information says you're a 25 year old short female and a 60 year old tall greying male turns up then they have a good reason to double check that the person in front of them is really you.

male/female is 99% of the time a really good one because it cuts out 48 to 49 ish % of the population off the bat with very few unclear cases.


Sex is FAR better a describing someone than gender.
You can lift a skirt to determine someone's sex, but their gender? Explain to me how you can determine someone's gender. A lot of people are fairly gender neutral, wearing mostly blue jeans and a t-shirt.
Gender, really, is only good for describing someone's personality.
I don't think male/female gender really describes people either since what it takes "to be a man/woman" changes from decade to decade, and from person to person.

Honestly, the only people i've met that care more about someone's gender than sex are other transgender people.

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Re: Why is there a need to be labeled? (gender, sexuality, e

Postby KrytenKoro » Thu Jan 08, 2015 9:21 pm UTC


Sex is FAR better a describing someone than gender.
You can lift a skirt to determine someone's sex,


Absurdly false. Do you even science?
but their gender? Explain to me how you can determine someone's gender.

Ask them?

Honestly, the only people i've met that care more about someone's gender than sex are other transgender people.

And so, of course, thats both an accurate slice of all humanity, plus theyre just crazy, right?
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Re: Why is there a need to be labeled? (gender, sexuality, e

Postby morriswalters » Thu Jan 08, 2015 9:46 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:I wouldn't worry overly much about everyone wanting the same thing. We're all just doin' whatever.
I wish that were true. But the heuristics I use to categorize people are getting overloaded. The thing about the social equation is that everybody wants respect for their given identification. And in so far as I can tell, there isn't any harm in that. But do I need to ask every woman I might wish to date if she has a vagina? I'm sorry but I find it amusing that people get so worked up over this. I want people to be happy with who they are, and am happy to enable it, if it is possible.
KrytenKoro wrote:So....just a question, then.

How do your and HH's conceptions account for hermaphrodites, transexuals, those who are sterile, those who are asexual, and any others without the standard "XY, with penis and desire to put sperm in females" and "XX, with vagina and desire to get sperm put in them to make a baby"?
Why should I account for anything. Roll the genetic dice and you get all kinds of outcomes. But if they can't reproduce, then whatever it is that makes them who they are will die with them. And without the biological, the social label we are talking about would not be required.

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Re: Why is there a need to be labeled? (gender, sexuality, e

Postby poochyena » Thu Jan 08, 2015 9:52 pm UTC

KrytenKoro wrote:

Sex is FAR better a describing someone than gender.
You can lift a skirt to determine someone's sex,


Absurdly false. Do you even science?


physically, its better at describing someone.

but their gender? Explain to me how you can determine someone's gender.

Ask them?[/quote]

Without asking them*
look at HungryHobo's example with identity fraud.
When determining who someone is, its much easier to prove who they are by knowing their sex, since you can actually check that, unlike gender.

Honestly, the only people i've met that care more about someone's gender than sex are other transgender people.

And so, of course, thats both an accurate slice of all humanity, plus theyre just crazy, right?[/quote]
My point is, when asked "are you male or female", most people are asking about sex, not gender, so its more accurate to answer as such.

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Re: Why is there a need to be labeled? (gender, sexuality, e

Postby Azrael » Thu Jan 08, 2015 10:12 pm UTC

poochyena wrote:
KrytenKoro wrote:
Sex is FAR better a describing someone than gender.
You can lift a skirt to determine someone's sex,
Absurdly false. Do you even science?
physically, its better at describing someone.
... no, it is not.

Trans people exist. People whose outward gender identify is different from their sex. If you describe them as their genital sex, but they look, act and dress entirely like the other, your description is wrong in all practical applications that aren't medical or we-are-having-sex-right-now. Gender is what you actually see.

And because people are generally unforgiving (bordering on typical very fucking nasty) towards people who are one sex but look like the other gender, calling someone who's gender is opposite of their sex by their sex often times physically, socially and emotionally endangers them. That is why there are trans people who are not 100% "out". And why the ones who are could tell you a heaping pile of stories about the bigotry they've experienced.

So no. Sex isn't "better". It's more binary, which obviously makes it easier for you to understand. But it's less accurate for your practical purposes and can marginalize and endanger. Plus, it's far harder to use -- because while philosophically, sex can be measured, you can't actually fucking do it. Well, more specially, you don't have the right to go around physically checking people's genitals. I believe you'd get your ass kicked doin' something like that.

morriswalters wrote:
Azrael wrote:And earlier you asked what a trans person's holy grail would be, so I guess we can't keep ignoring the question:

I have no idea. We can't. I assume the answer changes dramatically from individual to individual, and maybe over time too. But I do know that trying to make a logical inference such as you are (that gender and sex must be linked or else no one would want a surgical reassignment) is guaranteed to be wrong.
Why? I assume before we developed the intelligence to create clothing that we ran around naked. Even assuming that clothing was purely a response to environmental factors, we ended up here. High fashion and all. So to take the reasoning to the extreme, what would removing the clothes do? Remove the enabling factors. Cosmetics, plunging necklines, and all the accoutrements. And what would being trans mean? Gender as you describe it is an artifact of clothing. I'm quite sure that trans people would still exist, but how would they express it?

Wait, why what? Why do I know that your assertion "that gender and sex must be linked or else no one would want a surgical reassignment" is wrong? Or, to remove the double negative, why I know that gender and sex aren't intractably linked? Because there are trans people who don't chose gender reassignment. Or, to get super technical about sex (which in hard science is often chromosomal), because there are people with chromosomes that don't match their gender, never know it and don't care.

Also, no. Gender is more than an article of clothing. Remember gender roles?

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Re: Why is there a need to be labeled? (gender, sexuality, e

Postby Angua » Thu Jan 08, 2015 10:16 pm UTC

poochyena wrote:Still kinda sick, so i can't make too many replies.

azule wrote:I chose to focus on non gendered colors

ugh
colors are colors
they are not gendered until you tell someone it is.

No one is going to think blue = boy until you tell them

anyways, another example of people care more about sex than gender
People treat babies differently depending on whether they're wearing pink, blue or yellow.

So, it definitely does make a difference.
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Re: Why is there a need to be labeled? (gender, sexuality, e

Postby Azrael » Thu Jan 08, 2015 10:35 pm UTC

Angua wrote:
poochyena wrote:ugh
colors are colors
they are not gendered until you tell someone it is.

No one is going to think blue = boy until you tell them
People treat babies differently depending on whether they're wearing pink, blue or yellow.

So, it definitely does make a difference.

And thoroughly demonstrates how it is that society tells you that boy = blue and girl = pink. You've been taught that since, roughly, the very first time you were put in clothing.

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Re: Why is there a need to be labeled? (gender, sexuality, e

Postby morriswalters » Thu Jan 08, 2015 11:15 pm UTC

Azrael wrote:Because there are trans people who don't chose gender reassignment.
Maybe it is because of the choices that are available to them, how would you know? Self reporting is unreliable. But then again how would I?
Azrael wrote:because there are people with chromosomes that don't match their gender, never know it and don't care.
You can be born with six fingers and still be human, is there a point? There are gender roles because some people have penises and some vaginas. So my story is, penises and vaginas cause gender, gender doesn't cause penises and vaginas. Anyway thanks for the discussion, its been thought provoking. Pardon my excursions from proper language, I'll continue to try and improve my shitty language skills. :D

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Re: Why is there a need to be labeled? (gender, sexuality, e

Postby KrytenKoro » Thu Jan 08, 2015 11:35 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:Why should I account for anything. Roll the genetic dice and you get all kinds of outcomes. But if they can't reproduce, then whatever it is that makes them who they are will die with them. And without the biological, the social label we are talking about would not be required.

So, when menopause happens, women just vanish into thin air, then? Or are you saying that as soon as someone falls outside of the reproducing-and-binary crowd (for example, if they are non-binary but still fertile), they cease to exist, since you're not even accounting for "non-sexed"?

What the actual fuck are you spouting?

Trans people exist. People whose outward gender identify is different from their sex. If you describe them as their genital sex, but they look, act and dress entirely like the other, your description is wrong in all practical applications that aren't medical or we-are-having-sex-right-now. Gender is what you actually see.

It's not even just that. "What genitals a person has" is already an extremly inaccurate way to determine what biologists define the sexes as, let alone non-common or non-expressed chromosome combinations. Poochyena's assertion is wildly ignorant of basic biology, much less sociology -- almost to the point of "tide comes in, tide comes out, you can't explain that".
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Re: Why is there a need to be labeled? (gender, sexuality, e

Postby morriswalters » Fri Jan 09, 2015 1:43 am UTC

KrytenKoro wrote:So, when menopause happens, women just vanish into thin air, then? Or are you saying that as soon as someone falls outside of the reproducing-and-binary crowd (for example, if they are non-binary but still fertile), they cease to exist, since you're not even accounting for "non-sexed"?

What the actual fuck are you spouting?
I would certainly hope not. I love my wife dearly. Selfishly, I hope I predecease her.

The question was "Why is there a need to be labeled?" My original answer was something on the order of "We use gender as a heuristic for determining the suitability of partners for reproduction.", or something to that effect. That was true before the idea of gender roles existed or for that matter the label of transgendered. There are certainly a million other reasons. That is what the fuck I am spouting. Was that clear?

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Re: Why is there a need to be labeled? (gender, sexuality, e

Postby Azrael » Fri Jan 09, 2015 1:52 am UTC

morriswalters wrote:The question was "Why is there a need to be labeled?" My original answer was something on the order of "We use gender as a heuristic for determining the suitability of partners for reproduction.", or something to that effect. That was true before the idea of gender roles existed or for that matter the label of transgendered.

I'm pretty sure that in your pre-clothing naked society, people were actually using sex to determine sex for the purposed of mating. What with the nakedness. And then some time later, after their jibbly bits weren't hanging out, the two terms were pretty synonymous. And stayed that way for a very long time. Although at some point in there, someone realized they weren't really synonymous. And some time after that someone else thought "Oh, hey. What if that's not a problem we should torment people about?"

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Re: Why is there a need to be labeled? (gender, sexuality, e

Postby gmalivuk » Fri Jan 09, 2015 1:56 am UTC

Except actually, the concepts we generally refer to as "sex" and "gender" were not synonymous for a long time in many other cultures. The idea that they are the same (and that they are binary) is socially constructed and Westerners just now learning that trans and nonbinary genders are real would do well to remember that while it may be a relatively new idea in their culture, it isn't even remotely new in many other parts of the world.
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Re: Why is there a need to be labeled? (gender, sexuality, e

Postby KrytenKoro » Fri Jan 09, 2015 6:13 am UTC

morriswalters wrote:
KrytenKoro wrote:So, when menopause happens, women just vanish into thin air, then? Or are you saying that as soon as someone falls outside of the reproducing-and-binary crowd (for example, if they are non-binary but still fertile), they cease to exist, since you're not even accounting for "non-sexed"?

What the actual fuck are you spouting?
I would certainly hope not. I love my wife dearly. Selfishly, I hope I predecease her.

The question was "Why is there a need to be labeled?" My original answer was something on the order of "We use gender as a heuristic for determining the suitability of partners for reproduction.", or something to that effect. That was true before the idea of gender roles existed or for that matter the label of transgendered. There are certainly a million other reasons. That is what the fuck I am spouting. Was that clear?

Nope, because ive specifically asked you how your system accounts for those who dont fit in the binary, and you wrote them off as "gonna die without reproduction." Not only is that false (asexuals can reproduce), but you didnt even posit a null condution. Your system is nonsensical.
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Re: Why is there a need to be labeled?

Postby azule » Fri Jan 09, 2015 10:26 am UTC

poochyena wrote:
azule wrote:I chose to focus on non gendered colors

ugh
colors are colors

<snip/>

I feel its just a color, and some people waaaay over think it.
Colors are symbols. Symbols are symbols. They mean stuff exactly because it means things to others. Pink triangle. Rainbow flag. Colors mean nothing... :roll:

Isn't this your topic? Please don't be so flippant with the label of color when your very question is of the label of (words on) gender. Identity comes in many forms, from names to clothing, to colors. *shakes head*

Angua wrote:People treat babies differently depending on whether they're wearing pink, blue or yellow.

So, it definitely does make a difference.
Thanks for backing me up.

poochyena wrote:they are not gendered until you tell someone it is.

No one is going to think blue = boy until you tell them
Hah. Everyone is going think he's a boy when he wears blue! He actually gets a fair amount of "cute girl". :) See, I don't care what they think. I don't usually correct them. He's wearing blue right now, btw. I am not against the color, just against doing it exclusively in order to inform everyone of his gender. I hope this is clearer now.

anyways, another example of people care more about sex than gender
blue and pink is just a simple way for other people to know the sex of the child, its not forcing the kid to conform to gender roles, that ridiculous.
Why do I need a simple way to inform others of my baby's sex/gender? It's none of their fucking business. But they always make it their business. I don't think I should make it simple for them.

I was tired last time I posted and I didn't quite say the things I said right. I didn't mean to say something about his gender identity. I meant to say his "gender identity according to strangers".

Whats next, giving the child a transformers blanket is forcing him to like transformers? "what is he grows up not liking transformers!?!"
I'm sorry, I do not quite get this sentence and quote. It's a bit mangled. Did you mean "what if he grows up..."? But to reply anyway, I've never been much into giving children commercial characters on their things. I never wanted it when I was young. I liked characters, just don't need them on my sneakers. I see the kids that do, and I just don't know. I'm not totally against it, but why not discourage it?

morriswalters wrote:So to take the reasoning to the extreme, what would removing the clothes do? Remove the enabling factors. Cosmetics, plunging necklines, and all the accoutrements. And what would being trans mean? Gender as you describe it is an artifact of clothing. I'm quite sure that trans people would still exist, but how would they express it?
Tucking the dong between the legs. Hairy muffs all around. The boobs...man boobs. Next challenge.

morriswalters wrote:
Azrael wrote:Because there are trans people who don't chose gender reassignment.
Maybe it is because of the choices that are available to them, how would you know? Self reporting is unreliable.
Exactly. To say there are these cases...in a society that might fucking kill you if you try to be trans... okay, need I say more?
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Re: Why is there a need to be labeled? (gender, sexuality, e

Postby morriswalters » Fri Jan 09, 2015 10:52 am UTC

KrytenKoro wrote:Nope, because ive specifically asked you how your system accounts for those who dont fit in the binary, and you wrote them off as "gonna die without reproduction." Not only is that false (asexuals can reproduce), but you didnt even posit a null condution. Your system is nonsensical.
I"ll restate it. If you don't reproduce your genetic line, than it is, in terms of evolution, it's as if you never existed. On the other hand if you enter the genetic lottery than your genes get a chance to pass on their particular traits.

If you asked a asexual man or woman what gender they are, what would they answer? Undecided? Other? The system as you seem to want to describe it has to account for large multiples of possibilities. I see no problem with that. But it doesn't change what I think in the least. That if we didn't vary by penises and vaginas we wouldn't need gender roles. We could simply call them social roles. Butcher, bakers or candlestick makers.
Azrael wrote:"Oh, hey. What if that's not a problem we should torment people about?"
The question that I am asking and which I believe supports my statement, is what essentially makes a particular gender role female? What makes her happy when she looks in the mirror? Assuming that you are male, how do you feel about what you see in the mirror, does it feel "right"? However you haven't answered to this point so I'm not expecting you to now. That there are dicks in the world who like to torment anybody that doesn't fit their particular world picture isn't something I can control.

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Re: Why is there a need to be labeled? (gender, sexuality, e

Postby Azrael » Fri Jan 09, 2015 1:19 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:What makes her happy when she looks in the mirror?
Wistfully reliving the final moments of anguish felt by foes defeated on the battlefield. Knowing that her exterior appearances match with the identity she innately understands. When people don't try to determine what makes a person happy based on their genitals.

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Re: Why is there a need to be labeled? (gender, sexuality, e

Postby KrytenKoro » Fri Jan 09, 2015 2:44 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:I"ll restate it. If you don't reproduce your genetic line, than it is, in terms of evolution, it's as if you never existed. On the other hand if you enter the genetic lottery than your genes get a chance to pass on their particular traits.

So, again, women past menopause. You can't mate with them, but they were fertile once. How does your system account for that?

If you asked a asexual man or woman what gender they are, what would they answer? Undecided? Other? The system as you seem to want to describe it has to account for large multiples of possibilities. I see no problem with that. But it doesn't change what I think in the least. That if we didn't vary by penises and vaginas we wouldn't need gender roles. We could simply call them social roles. Butcher, bakers or candlestick makers.

Chum, you haven't even established a coherent system for identifying sex yet, much less gender. Let's stick with the easy part first.
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Re: Why is there a need to be labeled? (gender, sexuality, e

Postby morriswalters » Fri Jan 09, 2015 5:58 pm UTC

KrytenKoro wrote:So, again, women past menopause. You can't mate with them, but they were fertile once. How does your system account for that?
What system? But if you must have something. My wife for instance I would classify first as human. And she cuddles well. Losing her ability to procreate didn't make her less human. It just made her less fertile. So since I look at humanity as a first descriptor, I don't really need any more at this point. This would also apply to my step son who has Downs. First he is human, and so on. So any gender that can be expressed can fit in that system, since the only requisite marker is to be human. Do you follow, or do I need to make it simpler?
KrytenKoro wrote:Chum, you haven't even established a coherent system for identifying sex yet, much less gender. Let's stick with the easy part first.
I don't have to. Based on outward appearance alone I would use expressed gender markers and get a pretty close match to the genitalia in most cases(this is using the term sex to describe the biological markers). If that is too straightforward for you, I'll do it on faces alone. Still too much. I'll do it on eyes alone. I won't always be right, but I'll do well. I would guess greater than say 60 percent for just eyes. I don't need to check outliers. If I need to know I'll ask or they will tell me. If you want a biological marker than makes you transgender or anything else see a doctor or whatever scientist you might think would apply. I took a quick look and didn't see any precise measure. Perhaps you can point me to one. In terms of how others describe themselves, I'll use whatever label they might choose and treat them the way they wish to be treated(or at least I'll do my best).

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Re: Why is there a need to be labeled? (gender, sexuality, e

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Jan 09, 2015 7:35 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:I wouldn't worry overly much about everyone wanting the same thing. We're all just doin' whatever.
I wish that were true. But the heuristics I use to categorize people are getting overloaded. The thing about the social equation is that everybody wants respect for their given identification. And in so far as I can tell, there isn't any harm in that. But do I need to ask every woman I might wish to date if she has a vagina? I'm sorry but I find it amusing that people get so worked up over this. I want people to be happy with who they are, and am happy to enable it, if it is possible.


I suppose? If this comes up a lot, and is reaaaally important to you, then, I guess you could ask that up front. I dare say that this sort of prioritization might not be socially acceptable, though.

Here's the thing about attraction...you usually know when you're attracted to someone. Labels aside, it shouldn't be hard to make words at that person, and get to know if they, individually, are a good match for you, regardless of group identity. After all, you're generally going to have a relationship with an individual, not with the entire category.

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Re: Why is there a need to be labeled? (gender, sexuality, e

Postby KrytenKoro » Fri Jan 09, 2015 8:22 pm UTC

...

okay, let's go back to how you are defining gender and sex:
Gender identification is a heuristic for the identification of a possible sexual partner, since genitalia are obscured. Much in the way that male Cardinals are bright red and females less so. You only test the heuristic when you choose to do something about it. Just saying.

Separate the reasoning part of your mind from the biological imperative that produced it. It is about what moves the race forward, which happens by procreation. If the "Can I bone this person?" wasn't the most important question then gender wouldn't matter at all. Fashion, dating rituals, dating sites, and the thousand and one ways that we chase the biological part of the human experience, and they exist to serve a purpose. The reasoning side of your mind adds other meanings. You rate the importance of what each of those added meanings have to you.


Unless I am massively misinterpreting the definitions of the words you are using, you are stating that unless one can breed, it is not meaningful to define one's gender.

For your wife, you're still calling her she. You're still defining her gender. According to you, that's a nonsensical thing to do. Why are you doing it? If, as you allege, you can't breed with her anymore, then you're being purely irrational.

This is why I'm criticizing the reasoning you're laying out -- because if it was true, it would mean that (1) you're being hugely hypocritical by continuing to identify gender in non-breeding individuals that, per your definitions, don't technically "have" gender, and (2) since you've failed to even allow for a "null" or "undefined" gender, that you're apparently supposing people don't exist unless they can breed. Your definitions are incomplete and incoherent, to the point that you're blatantly not actually using them.

I don't have to. Based on outward appearance alone I would use expressed gender markers and get a pretty close match to the genitalia in most cases(this is using the term sex to describe the biological markers). If that is too straightforward for you, I'll do it on faces alone. Still too much. I'll do it on eyes alone. I won't always be right, but I'll do well. I would guess greater than say 60 percent for just eyes.

No, again you're misunderstanding me. I'm not asking about "what to look for", I'm saying that you're starting with a basic assumption of "There are Males (TM) and there are Females (TM)", and yet you have yet to coherently define what you mean by either Males or Females. Adding in heuristics that you yourself admit "won't always be right" just detracts from your base assumptions even further. You haven't even established what sex and gender are in your world, much less demonstrated reliable ways to identify them.

I don't need to check outliers.

The topic is "why do people have outlying labels". If your answer is, as it seems to be, "these people don't matter", then I am astounded. Even if you're keeping your use of labels purely within breeding purposes, that's a massively ignorant answer.

If you want a biological marker than makes you transgender or anything else see a doctor or whatever scientist you might think would apply. I took a quick look and didn't see any precise measure. Perhaps you can point me to one.

Wikipedia is pretty clear on scientific recognition that transgender does, in fact, have a basis, and is not purely whimsy. Example:
Studies have consistently shown that specifically androphilic male-to-female transsexuals (sometimes called homosexual MtF transsexuals in studies) show a shift towards the female direction in brain anatomy.


As far as sex is concerned, scientists are equally in agreement that there exist chromosomal combinations other than XX and XY, as well as the possibility for even the "normal" combinations to be non-expressive. There are, medically and not "just in the feverdreams of tumblrites", more than two sexes in humans. And since those chromosomes do actually do more than just implementing breeding, there are many fundamental reasons to identify people according to sex, even from an evolutionary psych perspective.

In terms of how others describe themselves, I'll use whatever label they might choose and treat them the way they wish to be treated(or at least I'll do my best).

That, at least, is commendable.
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Re: Why is there a need to be labeled? (gender, sexuality, e

Postby gmalivuk » Fri Jan 09, 2015 8:40 pm UTC

Taking a step back from current specifics, the OP seems focused on gender and sexuality labels (and holds the hilariously arrogant and limited view that because he only became aware of additional labels through tumblr, that must be where those labels originated), but this is the kind of nonsense privileged people also pull all the time with race and disability and neurodivergence and everything else.

"I don't see color/sex/disability," says the able-bodied neurotypical cishet white dude, "I just see people!" But that's generally only true in the sense that you assume people are like you by default. A cishet white male character is "just people", but as soon as an Asian-American woman plays that character in an adaptation, race and gender suddenly become serious sticking points again. Which means you were never as "colorblind" as you claimed in the first place.

Yes, these are all to some degree social constructs without strict biological reality, but as long as society continues continues constructing them, people will continue labeling themselves within those constructs, even if there's some kind of nonexistent ideal world in which no one would need those labels because no society constructed those categories.

Meanwhile, they continue to be as important to many people's day-to-day lives as such other social constructs as the English language, the United States of America, and money.
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Re: Why is there a need to be labeled? (gender, sexuality, e

Postby poochyena » Fri Jan 09, 2015 9:33 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:(and holds the hilariously arrogant and limited view that because he only became aware of additional labels through tumblr, that must be where those labels originated)


I never stated that i learned about these labels through tumblr, i simply implied that its mostly the tumblr community that uses these labels.
I learned about the labels through (real life) friends, who, of course, are active tumblr users.

gmalivuk wrote:"I don't see color/sex/disability," says the able-bodied neurotypical cishet white dude, "I just see people!" But that's generally only true in the sense that you assume people are like you by default. A cishet white male character is "just people", but as soon as an Asian-American woman plays that character in an adaptation, race and gender suddenly become serious sticking points again. Which means you were never as "colorblind" as you claimed in the first place.


I've never liked the "i don't see color/sex/disabilities" thing too much, since you should see the differences, and understand what they are.

----

Labels matter, but i feel some people take them too far.
labels describing physical things (hair, body weight, sex) are concrete and should be taken literal
labels describing mental things (gender, sexuality, favorite color) are less concrete
I believe some people take labels that describe mental things take them too seriously and think "I must find as many labels as i possible can that fit me perfectly".
Those labels are meant to vaguely label you and not meant to accurately describe you you are, since the only label that can accurately portray your personality is "myself".

Some labels are concrete, others are fluid. Which is the better ones to use simply depends on the situation, and i guess thats part of the discussion, when should certain labels be used?
generally, when someone asks you "who you are", you are listing concrete label (like sex), when asked "what are you like", you list more fluid personality labels(like gender.)

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Re: Why is there a need to be labeled? (gender, sexuality, e

Postby morriswalters » Sat Jan 10, 2015 12:14 am UTC

I don't need to lay out any definition. For the bulk of the population, it consists of penises and vaginas. Complementary equipment evolved for one purpose only. To reproduce the race. Everything follows from that. The customs are different depending on where you come from, but to the best of my knowledge the is no place that has produced a gender free society.
KrytenKoro wrote:The topic is "why do people have outlying labels". If your answer is, as it seems to be, "these people don't matter", then I am astounded. Even if you're keeping your use of labels purely within breeding purposes, that's a massively ignorant answer.
I didn't suggest it as the only answer. We each have multiple labels that identify us.
KrytenKoro wrote:As far as sex is concerned, scientists are equally in agreement that there exist chromosomal combinations other than XX and XY, as well as the possibility for even the "normal" combinations to be non-expressive. There are, medically and not "just in the feverdreams of tumblrites", more than two sexes in humans. And since those chromosomes do actually do more than just implementing breeding, there are many fundamental reasons to identify people according to sex, even from an evolutionary psych perspective.
If you say so. However no reproduction no little tumblers. Look, I know that the world as you see it is important to you. And since we share space it is important to me as well. But gender and sex are what they are, at least for me. I'm happy to add as many more as are needed. I'll be even happier when you can provide a definition that is verifiable as an alternative.

I call my wife her because she expects me to. If she came to me and asked me to call her a him, I would be startled, but the issue is important enough to me I would do as she wished.

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Re: Why is there a need to be labeled? (gender, sexuality, e

Postby Azrael » Sat Jan 10, 2015 2:43 am UTC

poochyena wrote:generally, when someone asks you "who you are", you are listing concrete label (like sex)

That's just not true. The fact that you've heard people identify themselves by all these discrete labels that aren't just male or female completely and entirely disproves the notion that when asked the question people give the concrete, (mostly) binary answer regarding sex. The existence of the scenario you came here to question contradicts your position. It becomes clear why your previous discussions have gone poorly -- people explain that there are things beyond the black and white of sex and you keep denying that those shades of grey are real. Denying that anyone would use them while complaining that people use them. There's no other way to put it except that you're entirely wrong.

If you ask a transgender person whether they are male of female will answer with gender, not sex. That's more or less a working definition of what being transgender means. They might of course answer "neither". Either way, guess what? They didn't answer with their sex. Boom. Thesis disproved.

On the other hand, a completely cisgendered person will give an answer that might be either gender or sex -- because they are equivalent for that person.

This difference does not mean the trans person is wrong, or lying, or making up categories so that they can collect more badges than a girl scout. The seeming incongruity stems from the fact that gender and sex aren't the same.

poochyena wrote:i simply implied that its mostly the tumblr community that uses these labels.

Dude, you're ... exasperating. No, it's not mostly the tumblr community that uses those labels. Not even fucking close. It's just that your experience with those labels coincides with your experience with tumblr. Correlation, causation, etc etc. I have never spent any time in any sort of tumblr community and yet here I am, capable of understanding some pretty basic ideas. And all the people who I've learned from, and who know this far more thoroughly and intimately that I ever will? The didn't learn it from tumblr either.

Jesus Fucksauce. Being transgendered and the concept that sex and gender are different predate the fucking internet. Nevermind a microblogging site founded 8 years ago. Christ, I've been moderating this forum for ... 74/95ths as long as tumblr has existed and this thread could have been plucked straight out of my first week, and it would've been as a tired a rehash then as it is now.

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Re: Why is there a need to be labeled? (gender, sexuality, e

Postby azule » Sat Jan 10, 2015 1:59 pm UTC

You don't have to rehash. "Someone is wrong on the internet" is just a comic. It's just hash (no re-) to me and others. Leave it to us and get yourself some rest.
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Re: Why is there a need to be labeled? (gender, sexuality, e

Postby Azrael » Sat Jan 10, 2015 6:11 pm UTC

Listen, there's wrong on the internet and then there's being so trapped in your own bubble that you honestly believe these distinctions happen because tumblr.

One of those things is why we have these conversations. The other is why we have to occasionally flip the table over on someone.

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Re: Why is there a need to be labeled? (gender, sexuality, e

Postby azule » Sun Jan 11, 2015 12:36 am UTC

I thought xe already said they didn't believe it was only a tumblr thing. Are you sure you don't just want to argue? hah.
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Re: Why is there a need to be labeled? (gender, sexuality, e

Postby Azrael » Sun Jan 11, 2015 12:53 am UTC

poochyena wrote:i simply implied that its mostly the tumblr community that uses these labels.
Azrael wrote:Dude, you're ... exasperating. No, it's not mostly the tumblr community that uses those labels.
azule wrote:I thought xe already said they didn't believe it was only a tumblr thing.

...?

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Re: Why is there a need to be labeled? (gender, sexuality, e

Postby poochyena » Sun Jan 11, 2015 2:22 am UTC

I honestly don't know of any community larger than Tumblr that has as many users that use as many uncommon labels such as "pansexual" or "genderfuild".
Of the several dozens people I personally have known and met that uses more specific labels other than the common male/female hetero/homo/bisexual terms, they have all been active tumblr users.
I feel like you think I know one LGBT or tumblr person, and just base everything i know about them with those communities. Thats simply not true.

Obviously non-tumblr users use more specific labels, but from my experience its always the active tumblr users that go overboard with the labels.
I don't understand how you can disagree with me that the tumblr community is the reason that these more specific labels are so popular and wider know now.

As for the transgender labels..
I liked what i read someone said somewhere else
male/female describes sex
masculine/feminine describes gender.

"i'm a feminine male" makes more sense than saying "i'm a female male"

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Re: Why is there a need to be labeled? (gender, sexuality, e

Postby rat4000 » Sun Jan 11, 2015 2:31 am UTC

poochyena wrote:Of the several dozens people I personally have known and met that uses more specific labels other than the common male/female hetero/homo/bisexual terms, they have all been active tumblr users.
Maybe they became tumblr users after they'd used the labels for a while? I mean, you seem to be saying that tumblr use leads to label use, but your data supports the conclusion that label use leads to tumblr use equally well.
"i'm a feminine male" makes more sense than saying "i'm a female male"
Is there space in your framework for "I'm a feminine man?"

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Re: Why is there a need to be labeled? (gender, sexuality, e

Postby gmalivuk » Sun Jan 11, 2015 3:01 am UTC

It also never seems to occur to you "tumblr snowflake" types that, even if tumblr use sometimes does lead to label use, maybe that's because tumblr has finally given these people a label to use other than broken.
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