Won't advanced AI inherit humanity's social flaws?

For the serious discussion of weighty matters and worldly issues. No off-topic posts allowed.

Moderators: Azrael, Moderators General, Prelates

User avatar
gmalivuk
GNU Terry Pratchett
Posts: 26440
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:02 pm UTC
Location: Here and There
Contact:

Re: Won't advanced AI inherit humanity's social flaws?

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Sep 08, 2015 3:31 pm UTC

Humans have had the ability to reason for tens of thousands of years, and yet have still had to adapt biologically in that time.

(Also, I know it was just an example, but reputation is probably harder to escape now than in the past, because so much of it is or can be online.)
Unless stated otherwise, I do not care whether a statement, by itself, constitutes a persuasive political argument. I care whether it's true.
---
If this post has math that doesn't work for you, use TeX the World for Firefox or Chrome

(he/him/his)

Tyndmyr
Posts: 11207
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:38 pm UTC

Re: Won't advanced AI inherit humanity's social flaws?

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Sep 08, 2015 4:29 pm UTC

Autolykos wrote:Depends on what you use it for. Those problems might be perfectly fine in a flight sim, but look like total arse in a strategy game. Which is exactly the situation humans find themselves in: We don't live in the environment we evolved in, and some of our quirks that were not that harmful or even helpful back then can become a problem. Do not trust your intuitions unless you have good reason to assume they're accurate.


This is always the case. Selection pressure happens because of a changing environment, not in preparation for it. So, we're always catching up to a new world. Everything is, unless it fills a niche that basically doesn't ever change.

Autolykos
Posts: 97
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2014 8:32 am UTC

Re: Won't advanced AI inherit humanity's social flaws?

Postby Autolykos » Wed Sep 09, 2015 10:35 am UTC

In a sense, that's true. But reason means we don't just have to take it and die, we can survive a long time while being poorly adapted. There might still be some advantageous traits that reach saturation and stay around in populations, but the pressure is way, way lower. It would be incredibly surprising if we still adapted at the same rate (and as completely) as other animals with so much less selection pressure.
On the flip side, reason means we don't just have to take it and die. We can jump ahead and mitigate or even override (in the mental case) traits we deem maladaptive.

User avatar
gmalivuk
GNU Terry Pratchett
Posts: 26440
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:02 pm UTC
Location: Here and There
Contact:

Re: Won't advanced AI inherit humanity's social flaws?

Postby gmalivuk » Wed Sep 09, 2015 12:26 pm UTC

Most animals can migrate.

The point remains that human genetics absolutely have changed, and while you'd need to define "rate of adaptation" first, I doubt we're that far from the norm on that, either.
Unless stated otherwise, I do not care whether a statement, by itself, constitutes a persuasive political argument. I care whether it's true.
---
If this post has math that doesn't work for you, use TeX the World for Firefox or Chrome

(he/him/his)

morriswalters
Posts: 7073
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 12:21 am UTC

Re: Won't advanced AI inherit humanity's social flaws?

Postby morriswalters » Wed Sep 09, 2015 12:58 pm UTC

Autolykos wrote:In a sense, that's true. But reason means we don't just have to take it and die, we can survive a long time while being poorly adapted.

This really makes no sense. Reason itself is an adaptation. And the process is ongoing and continuous.

Autolykos
Posts: 97
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2014 8:32 am UTC

Re: Won't advanced AI inherit humanity's social flaws?

Postby Autolykos » Wed Sep 16, 2015 4:36 pm UTC

Call it whatever you want, but it may well be the adaptation to end all adaptation (or come very close to it). There is very little change to be found in homo sapiens (the only ones that come to mind are less melanin in areas with less sunlight, and tolerance to lactose in adults), with the latter one possibly even resulting from interbreeding with Neanderthals. Evolution can be a lot quicker than that, given sufficient pressure:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peppered_moth_evolution
Sure, the moths might have eventually migrated to rural areas instead of going extinct, but they didn't. The new-and-improved type filled the niche that opened up with the changed environment.

User avatar
gmalivuk
GNU Terry Pratchett
Posts: 26440
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:02 pm UTC
Location: Here and There
Contact:

Re: Won't advanced AI inherit humanity's social flaws?

Postby gmalivuk » Wed Sep 16, 2015 5:13 pm UTC

Unless stated otherwise, I do not care whether a statement, by itself, constitutes a persuasive political argument. I care whether it's true.
---
If this post has math that doesn't work for you, use TeX the World for Firefox or Chrome

(he/him/his)

Tyndmyr
Posts: 11207
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:38 pm UTC

Re: Won't advanced AI inherit humanity's social flaws?

Postby Tyndmyr » Wed Sep 16, 2015 5:33 pm UTC

It's hard to imagine it being otherwise. The niche filled by humans has changed significantly as we developed civilization, it would be strange if we did not change at all. You normally see evolutionary stability once a niche has been filled for some time, and it remains stable.

And surely, our civilization has likewise changed the environment for many other creatures. Extinctions, adaptations have not ceased among other creatures. The idea that we are free from these pressures would seem to require an exceptionally strong amount of support.

Autolykos
Posts: 97
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2014 8:32 am UTC

Re: Won't advanced AI inherit humanity's social flaws?

Postby Autolykos » Wed Sep 16, 2015 6:11 pm UTC

Before throwing around snarky comments, you should first make sure that you understand what you're linking to. The article talks about plenty of mutations, sure. Some good, some bad, most neutral. But for evolution to happen, you also need selection. The article never makes the claim that these mutations are mostly adaptive, and even says that they never reached saturation. Genetic drift is not the same as adaptation, and a lot of drift without much adaptation resulting from it rather confirms my hypothesis that lack of effective selection pressure drastically slowed down (genetic) adaptation of humans to their environment.

User avatar
gmalivuk
GNU Terry Pratchett
Posts: 26440
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:02 pm UTC
Location: Here and There
Contact:

Re: Won't advanced AI inherit humanity's social flaws?

Postby gmalivuk » Wed Sep 16, 2015 7:39 pm UTC

Unless stated otherwise, I do not care whether a statement, by itself, constitutes a persuasive political argument. I care whether it's true.
---
If this post has math that doesn't work for you, use TeX the World for Firefox or Chrome

(he/him/his)

Autolykos
Posts: 97
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2014 8:32 am UTC

Re: Won't advanced AI inherit humanity's social flaws?

Postby Autolykos » Thu Sep 17, 2015 8:41 am UTC

Okay, point taken. This one does show that humans still adapt to the environment (especially the changes they create themselves). It doesn't prove that the speed is the same as with other animals, but I have nothing to prove my speculation, either.

Still doesn't settle the original question of whether the way empathy works in humans contains quirks that could be improved upon when re-implementing it in a machine.

User avatar
ucim
Posts: 6403
Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:23 pm UTC
Location: The One True Thread

Re: Won't advanced AI inherit humanity's social flaws?

Postby ucim » Thu Sep 17, 2015 6:04 pm UTC

Autolykos wrote:Still doesn't settle the original question of whether the way empathy works in humans contains quirks that could be improved upon when re-implementing it in a machine.
To successfully re-implement it in a machine, you would have to fully understand it. We do not fully understand empathy, certainly not to the level required to wire it up in a machine. We understand a few things in broad strokes; we could certainly implement that, but it would be different and have different quirks. Which ones might be "better" would be a matter of opinion.

You could also set up a machine to evolve something akin to empathy, but that would certainly have its own quirks, and may end up being very different from human entropy empathy, depending on the selection pressures.

Jose
Order of the Sillies, Honoris Causam - bestowed by charlie_grumbles on NP 859 * OTTscar winner: Wordsmith - bestowed by yappobiscuts and the OTT on NP 1832 * Ecclesiastical Calendar of the Order of the Holy Contradiction * Please help addams if you can. She needs all of us.


Return to “Serious Business”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest