sick realization: you have negative dollars

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sick realization: you have negative dollars

Postby phillip1882 » Wed Sep 06, 2017 1:29 pm UTC

here's the break down of our current system. the government does not issue the currency, the "federal reserve" does. the federal reserve is a privately owned bank. they give the money to the government in exchange for bonds. whats a bond? its an I.O.U., a promise to pay, with interest. then the government uses the money to buy goods and services. which means that every dollar in existence is owed to the federal reserve plus extra. you're literally working for negative money. WHY IN THE LOVE OF PETE WOULD ANYONE WANT SUCH A SYSTEM?
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Re: sick realization: you have negative dollars

Postby Thesh » Wed Sep 06, 2017 1:44 pm UTC

This is Serious Business. Your post is basically showing that you have a cursory understanding of the US monetary system, and have concluded that the entire system is complete nonsense, which should be a good indication that you don't understand monetary theory.
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Re: sick realization: you have negative dollars

Postby phillip1882 » Wed Sep 06, 2017 1:49 pm UTC

is everything i wrote in that post correct? then where am i mistaken that its not complete nonsense?
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Re: sick realization: you have negative dollars

Postby Thesh » Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:29 pm UTC

Well, the idea that there is negative money for one. If I own a farm and borrow money $1m to pay for workers and equipment, I have neither gained nor lost $1m, since the money was borrowed against my assets; I have $1m more in cash, and $1m more in liabilities ($1m less in net assets). If I'm borrowing it's because I expect that $1m to be paid back and more, and so the cash enters the system and gets spent repeatedly until I eventually have to pay the loan back. At every point, people are paid for the work that they do and my assets never change - every dollar I spend on my farm I do so because I expect to increase the value of my farm by at least one dollar.

Money is just an exchange medium, nothing more. It has value because it has scarcity and demand.
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Re: sick realization: you have negative dollars

Postby phillip1882 » Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:48 pm UTC

instead of money, lets use sticks of butter, so i can better explain. a farmer owns 1 cow, and with that cow he can make 5 sticks of butter per day, say.
he trades 4 sticks of butter for other goods and services, and consumes 1 stick. now the people who got the butter can exchange it for other good and services without owing it back to the farmer. would you agree?
now lets take a slightly different scenario. again, we'll have 1 farmer, but this time, we don't know how many cows or butter he can produce, only that whenever anyone asks him for butter, he only gives it out if the person promises to pay it back plus extra.
which means that in effect the farmer always owns all the butter, plus more.
do you agree?
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Re: sick realization: you have negative dollars

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:06 pm UTC

The difference is that in the first scenario, people paid up front for the butter. That's a big difference from where I assume you intend to take this conversation about the moo-ney masters and our dairy overlords.

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Re: sick realization: you have negative dollars

Postby Zamfir » Wed Sep 06, 2017 6:23 pm UTC

I'll run through the the post step by step, is that OK?
here's the break down of our current system. the government does not issue the currency, the "federal reserve" does.

Yes.
the federal reserve is a privately owned bank.

Technically yes, but that is more of an historic quirk. The US government determines Fed policy, and Fed profits go the government. So in practice, it behaves as a government-owned institution.
they give the money to the government in exchange for bonds.

Roughly, yes. There are some technicalities involved. The fed rarely buys directly from the government. They buy from others, who in turned got their bonds from the government. Also, not every dollar is created directly by the Fed, most are issued by regular banks, but the Fed oversees that process.
whats a bond? its an I.O.U., a promise to pay, with interest. then the government uses the money to buy goods and services.

Yes.
which means that every dollar in existence is owed to the federal reserve plus extra.

I can't follow you here? If anything, it's the opposite. On paper, dollars are a debt owed by the Fed, to you. That's how they are written down in the Feds books. Of course, dollars a weird kind of debt. The Fed won't pay you interest, and you can't go to Fed to demand your inlay back. It's not even clear what you would get back, except more dollars.

But you can go to the Fed's de-facto shareholder, the US government. And the US government will graciously reduce your outstanding tax burden, if you give them money. In that sense, a dollar behaves a lot like a zero-interest, directly-callable loan to the US government.

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Re: sick realization: you have negative dollars

Postby SecondTalon » Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:48 am UTC

phillip1882 wrote:we'll have 1 farmer, but this time, we don't know how many cows or butter he can produce, only that whenever anyone asks him for butter, he only gives it out if the person promises to pay it back plus extra.
which means that in effect the farmer always owns all the butter, plus more.
do you agree?

No.

Are you one of those people who thinks a person doesn't own a house and the bank does because there is a mortgage on it?

Because by using a tangible asset you're already confusing things.

Or, to continue it...

You're only talking about the American Farmer. Due to how corporations and investments and merchandise shipping and all that work, my salary of two sticks of butter a week is in effect a half stick of American butter, a quarter French butter, a quarter German butter, 1/4 Japanese butter, 1/4 Brazilian, and the remaining 1/2 a mixture of Thai, Indian, Saudi, Romanian, Polish, Spanish, Italian, Sengali, Kenyan, Ecuadorian, Dominican, and probably a few more.

However, it's all paid in American Butter.

If, for some insane reason, the American Farmer demanded his debts paid and that he would issue no further butter because... I dunno, he likes the Government being so incredibly up in his business... I'm affected, sure, but not screwed. My employer can shuffle a few things, raise some prices here and there, and my proportions get adjusted so I'm still making two sticks of American butter, but at no point is American butter involved in my salary.
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Re: sick realization: you have negative dollars

Postby phillip1882 » Fri Sep 08, 2017 1:49 pm UTC

Are you one of those people who thinks a person doesn't own a house and the bank does because there is a mortgage on it?

well if you ever stop paying your mortgage for any reason, i think you'll quickly find out who owns the house.


If, for some insane reason, the American Farmer demanded his debts paid and that he would issue no further butter because... I dunno, he likes the Government being so incredibly up in his business... I'm affected, sure, but not screwed. My employer can shuffle a few things, raise some prices here and there, and my proportions get adjusted so I'm still making two sticks of American butter, but at no point is American butter involved in my salary.


what? have you even followed what i said? ALL the butter is only issued on loan. which means if the American farmer demanded his debts paid, there would be no more butter in circulation unless people refused to pay.
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Re: sick realization: you have negative dollars

Postby SDK » Fri Sep 08, 2017 2:09 pm UTC

phillip1882 wrote:
Are you one of those people who thinks a person doesn't own a house and the bank does because there is a mortgage on it?

well if you ever stop paying your mortgage for any reason, i think you'll quickly find out who owns the house.

If I put my car or whatever else up as collateral for a loan, I definitely still own it.

I understand where you're coming from, but finances on the whole are a lot more complicated than "assets - liabilities = equity".
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Re: sick realization: you have negative dollars

Postby phillip1882 » Fri Sep 08, 2017 2:52 pm UTC

yes but you have to own it before you put it up as collateral.
when you take out a mortgage, you're putting your labor up for collateral.
when you buy a car, until its fully payed off you can't really offer it as collateral, otherwise there are essentially two owners of the same car should you ever stop earning income.
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Re: sick realization: you have negative dollars

Postby Thesh » Fri Sep 08, 2017 3:00 pm UTC

phillip1882 wrote:when you take out a mortgage, you're putting your labor up for collateral.


You believe that when you fail to pay your mortgage you are sold into slavery?
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Re: sick realization: you have negative dollars

Postby SDK » Fri Sep 08, 2017 3:41 pm UTC

phillip1882 wrote:when you take out a mortgage, you're putting your labor up for collateral.

What? I don't understand what you mean by "your labor". No, the house is the collateral. The bank gives you a loan on the condition that if you can't pay it, they own the house instead of you. You are the sole owner of that property.

phillip1882 wrote:when you buy a car, until its fully payed off you can't really offer it as collateral, otherwise there are essentially two owners of the same car should you ever stop earning income.

What you're essentially saying here is that you can't use the same car for collateral twice... which is definitely true. Doesn't mean I don't own it while I'm still paying it off.

I feel like you're twisting debt into something it's not. I guess if you look at debt in that way, it makes sense you should think dollars are negative... but that's not how the world actually works.
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Re: sick realization: you have negative dollars

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Sep 08, 2017 3:51 pm UTC

While it's true that a dollar is a Federal Reserve Note, as can be found on the dollar itself, it's irrelevant. You could deposit a cow at the bank and hold a certificate for IOU 1 HOLSTEIN, and if everyone traded those IOUs it'd be the same thing. People complain about government printing more IOUs than there are cows, but the reality is that if done right there's more beef as a result of good monetary policy and most of us can turn the IOUs we have into more beef than before even if each IOU only buys you one steak.

If the dollar lost 49/50 of its value but you have 100 times as many dollars, you are still twice as rich.

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Re: sick realization: you have negative dollars

Postby KnightExemplar » Fri Sep 08, 2017 4:27 pm UTC

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHe0bXAIuk0

I realize that this is a 30-minute video, but its one of the best available online with regards to simple economic principles. Debt is how the current world works, in part because debt is simply the grease of the system. In fact, currency itself is just a system of debts.

Note: you shouldn't be holding a substantial amount of cash at any given time. Instead, you should be owning Equities (Stock) or more useful debt (ie: Treasuries or Municipal bonds). Cash is most useful for emergency funds and day-to-day expenses. But anyone who knows what they're doing with money keeps their assets allocated elsewhere.
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Re: sick realization: you have negative dollars

Postby SecondTalon » Fri Sep 08, 2017 5:09 pm UTC

The truest piece of financial advice I ever had was from Futurama.

Judge "The bailiff tells me that a "Bank" is where poor people keep money that isn't properly invested"
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Re: sick realization: you have negative dollars

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Sep 08, 2017 5:24 pm UTC

Yeah, fuck CDs. If you want to have the risk free rate of return, buy a no dividend stock, sell a call and buy a put at the money with same maturity. Boom, done, risk free rate of return.

...minus transaction fees. But those are only a problem if you arent buying in multiple roundlots (stock by the 100s), peasant.

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Re: sick realization: you have negative dollars

Postby phillip1882 » Fri Sep 08, 2017 5:53 pm UTC

What? I don't understand what you mean by "your labor". No, the house is the collateral. The bank gives you a loan on the condition that if you can't pay it, they own the house instead of you. You are the sole owner of that property.


but you don't pay the loan on the house with the house itself generally, you pay it with your income which you get from you labor.
how big of a house you can buy is determined by how much income you make in a given month.

I feel like you're twisting debt into something it's not. I guess if you look at debt in that way, it makes sense you should think dollars are negative... but that's not how the world actually works.


i view debt as a promise to pay, and dollars as debt by the government. that's why i see dollars as negative.
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Re: sick realization: you have negative dollars

Postby KnightExemplar » Fri Sep 08, 2017 5:55 pm UTC

phillip1882 wrote:
What? I don't understand what you mean by "your labor". No, the house is the collateral. The bank gives you a loan on the condition that if you can't pay it, they own the house instead of you. You are the sole owner of that property.


but you don't pay the loan on the house with the house itself generally, you pay it with your income which you get from you labor.
how big of a house you can buy is determined by how much income you make in a given month.


"Collateral" has a very specific meaning. If you stop paying the loan, "Collateral" is what they take away from you. In the case of a mortgage, they take away your house.

If you don't mean "collateral", then don't use the word "collateral". You literally can't "collateral labor" unless they sell you into slavery.

EDIT: I guess the courts have the ability to "Garnish your wages". But from my understanding, you can avoid that by declaring bankruptcy. (With exception of IRS or US-government loans, such as student loans). Within the US system of law, its very difficult to "collateral labor" as you put it.
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Re: sick realization: you have negative dollars

Postby phillip1882 » Fri Sep 08, 2017 6:12 pm UTC

okay fair enough, I'll try to be more specific in what i mean in the future.
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Re: sick realization: you have negative dollars

Postby Pfhorrest » Fri Sep 08, 2017 7:58 pm UTC

A thought that recently occurred to me that I thought this thread was going to be about in the first place: if the amount you are in debt is the amount of money you owe to one person or another until you can stop paying money except for new ongoing consumption, then anyone who doesn't own property outright is in debt, and basically everyone is born into debt. Even if you don't have a mortgage and so formal debt on paper: if you're not mortgaging then you're living on someone else's land and owe them for that, and you can go somewhere else but then you will just owe someone else, until you get off of everyone else's land, and the only way to get off everyone else's land is to go to land that is yours alone, so if no land is yours, you are in debt, to someone or another, until that situation changes.
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Re: sick realization: you have negative dollars

Postby SecondTalon » Fri Sep 08, 2017 8:24 pm UTC

phillip1882 wrote:okay fair enough, I'll try to be more specific in what i mean in the future.

If you're talking finance, you have to be very specific.
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Re: sick realization: you have negative dollars

Postby ucim » Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:12 pm UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:basically everyone is born into debt. Even if you don't have a mortgage and so formal debt on paper: if you're not mortgaging then you're living on someone else's land and owe them for that
You are born into your parents' good graces. You are living on your parents' land and off of their largess. But they owe you that for having created you.
Spoiler:
This is of course a strictly financial analysis; there is much more to having children than who owes what to whom, and this is important to consider.
At some point, you will assume more and more of the responsibility for your own upkeep, ultimately (in most cases) leaving home, whether by choice or duress. But by that time, you will have merged into the financial system and will be able to trade labor (or thought) for tokens that other people are willing to accept in exchange for things you want (such as a place to live).

If you get your tokens first, you are in debt. If you get your tokens afterwards, you are in the black.

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Re: sick realization: you have negative dollars

Postby Pfhorrest » Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:37 pm UTC

As soon as your parents kick you off their land, you are immediately on someone else's land and owe "tokens" to them for that. (Let's just say money so we don't sound dumb). The amount of money you have to pay before you can stop paying money, unless you want someone to give you something more, is the amount that you're in debt. Right off the bat, that amount of money is infinite: unless you take further steps to change things, you will never stop owing someone money, even if you could magically manage to consume nothing. You owe someone or another for existing on their land, and you will continue to owe them until you get off of everyone else's land.

You can, of course, borrow a specific (if ever-growing) amount of money from someone else with which to buy your own land from yet another someone, which is an obviously better deal as then you only owe the finite amount of money you borrowed (at least, so long as the rate at which that amount due grows isn't more than the rate at which you had to pay off the unending debt you had before).

The point is just that not having a mortgage or any other debt on paper doesn't mean you are debt free in practice, because you cannot help but be somewhere or another, and unless you own a somewhere for yourself to be, you will inevitably be borrowing someone else's somewhere, and be in unending debt to them for that until that situation changes.
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Re: sick realization: you have negative dollars

Postby ucim » Sat Sep 09, 2017 5:40 am UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:As soon as your parents kick you off their land, you are immediately on someone else's land and owe "tokens" to them for that. (Let's just say money so we don't sound dumb).
Well, no. Some land is not privately owned. And even privately owned land is subject to laws governing trespass; those laws are not absolute. The postman owes you nothing for coming on your land in the usual course of his rounds.

But in terms of a place to sleep, yes, you have to pay for that before you can live somewhere. (And for the rest of this post, I will assume you are talking about a place to live, not just a place to "be" at any point in time, otherwise it would be impossible to walk around.) Where does that... money... come from? From the job you had while you were living at your parents' house, or from a promise you make (debt) to whoever owns the land you want to live on.
Pfhorrest wrote:The amount of money you have to pay before you can stop paying money, unless you want someone to give you something more, is the amount that you're in debt. Right off the bat, that amount of money is infinite:...
This sounds like rubbish. Care to elucidate?
Pfhorrest wrote:...unless you own a somewhere for yourself to be, you will inevitably be borrowing someone else's somewhere...
Well, this is true even if you do own a somewhere. That's why hotels cost money. Why is this a (philosophical) problem?

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Re: sick realization: you have negative dollars

Postby Chen » Sun Sep 10, 2017 1:52 pm UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:The point is just that not having a mortgage or any other debt on paper doesn't mean you are debt free in practice, because you cannot help but be somewhere or another, and unless you own a somewhere for yourself to be, you will inevitably be borrowing someone else's somewhere, and be in unending debt to them for that until that situation changes.


How is this any different from needing to eat? People dont generally consider their continued need for food a debt they owe. Its not a useful definition of debt similar to how its not useful, or at least misleading, to call it debt.

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Re: sick realization: you have negative dollars

Postby reval » Sun Sep 10, 2017 3:58 pm UTC

Chen wrote:How is this any different from needing to eat?

Yes. That. The root of all this debt business is the need to eat every day. Derivative things like ownership claims are just accreted around this basic need. All of this "extended debt" is just tricks and games to get OTHER people to give you food to eat.

Example: the peasant has to deliver bread and pigs to the knight on a regular basis, because otherwise the knight will poke the peasant with a sword. Or use the sword to drive the peasant off the land, which comes to the same thing. Because the knight "owns the land that is farmed by the peasant", as part of a system of feudal land grants descending from a king. But it's all about the sword, nothing else.

Both the knight and the peasant need to eat. That's the basic debt. The knight is just using his sword to make someone else pay his debt for him. Of course, we've wound up limiting the use of the word "debt" to the extended kind of debt extracted by the knight from the peasant. But we shouldn't forget about the underlying debt. That's the real debt.

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Re: sick realization: you have negative dollars

Postby Pfhorrest » Sun Sep 10, 2017 7:47 pm UTC

Imagine you had a magic star trek replicator that provided all your consumables for you for free.

What things would you still have to pay money for in that circumstance? Those are the thigs I find problematic.
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Re: sick realization: you have negative dollars

Postby Thesh » Sun Sep 10, 2017 8:35 pm UTC

What you are describing is wealth inequality. If everyone has equal wealth, then they effectively only have to pay for labor (assuming equal consumption of material resources). In Star Trek, I believe replicator energy is rationed out as credits.
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Re: sick realization: you have negative dollars

Postby Chen » Sun Sep 10, 2017 9:03 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:What you are describing is wealth inequality. If everyone has equal wealth, then they effectively only have to pay for labor. In Star Trek, I believe replicator energy is rationed out as credits.


Even in Star Trek, space on the surface of a planet is limited and thus scarce. Like the Picard family has a whole vineyard. Clearly there wouldn't be sufficient space in good grape producing areas for EVERYONE to have one of these. If there's that type of scarcity not everyone is going to be able to have the same thing as everyone else. They tend to avoid this problem on Star Trek by not really talking about it.

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Re: sick realization: you have negative dollars

Postby ucim » Sun Sep 10, 2017 9:09 pm UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:Imagine you had a magic star trek replicator that provided all your consumables for you for free.

What things would you still have to pay money for in that circumstance? Those are the thigs I find problematic.

Priority
Art
Attention (including social and business networking)
Respect
Power
Expertise (medical, legal, educational...)

...and somebody to fix your replicator when it's full of m*stard.

What do the wealthy and powerful battle over? That's what you're talking about.

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Re: sick realization: you have negative dollars

Postby Pfhorrest » Sun Sep 10, 2017 9:38 pm UTC

Besides possibly medicine, you have a choice to forgo any of those things. You don't strictly need them.

You don't have a choice to to not live anywhere, besides choosing not to live, which isn't really a choice.

If magic star trek replicators were suddenly available to everyone for free, everyone who owns land already would be set for life, and everyone who doesn't would be permanently fucked. That illustrates how this isn't a matter of people just needing to produce food etc or get someone else to do it for them; it's a structural injustice that would persist even into a magical postscarcity world where nobody has to work for anything.
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Re: sick realization: you have negative dollars

Postby Thesh » Sun Sep 10, 2017 9:45 pm UTC

Chen wrote:
Thesh wrote:What you are describing is wealth inequality. If everyone has equal wealth, then they effectively only have to pay for labor. In Star Trek, I believe replicator energy is rationed out as credits.


Even in Star Trek, space on the surface of a planet is limited and thus scarce. Like the Picard family has a whole vineyard. Clearly there wouldn't be sufficient space in good grape producing areas for EVERYONE to have one of these. If there's that type of scarcity not everyone is going to be able to have the same thing as everyone else. They tend to avoid this problem on Star Trek by not really talking about it.


Star Trek never developed a consistent economic system, and reminds me more of state capitalism than anything (Starfleet acted more like a for-profit paramilitary force than a science organization) but when it comes to equal wealth you only really need an equal monetary value of wealth - practically, this is really only possible if the wealth is democratically owned.
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Re: sick realization: you have negative dollars

Postby ucim » Sun Sep 10, 2017 10:32 pm UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:If magic star trek replicators were suddenly available to everyone for free, everyone who owns land already would be set for life, and everyone who doesn't would be permanently fucked
Not at all. People still want what they want. Rich people don't need anything, but they very much want stuff that they could live without. They pay money for it. They pay money for all the things I mentioned, and many more.

That will always be the case.

Jose
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Re: sick realization: you have negative dollars

Postby Chen » Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:06 am UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:Besides possibly medicine, you have a choice to forgo any of those things. You don't strictly need them.

You don't have a choice to to not live anywhere, besides choosing not to live, which isn't really a choice.

If magic star trek replicators were suddenly available to everyone for free, everyone who owns land already would be set for life, and everyone who doesn't would be permanently fucked. That illustrates how this isn't a matter of people just needing to produce food etc or get someone else to do it for them; it's a structural injustice that would persist even into a magical postscarcity world where nobody has to work for anything.


Land would simply be another scarce resource, and thus you wouldn't really be post-scarcity. Alternatively the governments could do something about appropriating land and giving it to people. In the end the only thing that's keeping your land as yours, is the government's threat of force to prevent others from just taking it. I mean realistically even people who do own land are paying the government for it's use. Fail to pay your taxes and they'll come take that land away from you. Land ownership is the logical progression that comes from trying to manage to live among many other people. Now leaving it up to the free market is clearly not the only option. The government could parcel out the land to individuals at their whim and not let you trade it to others. Would be largely inefficient if the farmer got allocated a coal mine and the miner got allocated the nice open wheat fields though.

Thesh wrote:Star Trek never developed a consistent economic system, and reminds me more of state capitalism than anything (Starfleet acted more like a for-profit paramilitary force than a science organization) but when it comes to equal wealth you only really need an equal monetary value of wealth - practically, this is really only possible if the wealth is democratically owned.


I can't fathom any way equal wealth would ever work. Some people may accumulate wealth but others would rather spend resources on transient things. Services rather than goods. How could you ever manage to maintain equal wealth, without infinite resources?

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Re: sick realization: you have negative dollars

Postby Thesh » Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:29 am UTC

Chen wrote:I can't fathom any way equal wealth would ever work. Some people may accumulate wealth but others would rather spend resources on transient things. Services rather than goods. How could you ever manage to maintain equal wealth, without infinite resources?


To be able to provide 100% equal wealth, you would require centralized ownership of all property, and then the profits would either be reinvested or paid out equally to everyone as a citizen's dividend. The only assets you would have are cash savings, and that's always going to be a source of some inequality. However, most people can be expected to save what they plan to spend in their lifetime, as anything more is a waste of their effort and so I'd say that their cash savings are just deferred consumption and write it off as all equal.
Last edited by Thesh on Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:22 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: sick realization: you have negative dollars

Postby Chen » Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:56 am UTC

What about various things though? Like a television vs going to a concert. Things accumulate whereas services are generally just pure consumption.

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Re: sick realization: you have negative dollars

Postby Thesh » Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:09 am UTC

Lease them.
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Re: sick realization: you have negative dollars

Postby ucim » Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:49 am UTC

Thesh wrote:However, most people can be expected to save what they plan to spend in their lifetime, as anything more is a waste of their effort
Uh... no, and no.

Most people do not save enough.

Most people can't divine the future, and so don't know what they will need, which is a function of what happens to them. Various injuries, illnesses, and other losses affect what people need beyond whatever medical compensation will be generously granted by the State (and how well has that worked out in the past?) That's what savings are for. Rainy days. It does rain, as the Gulf areas are finding out.

People are also happy to "waste" their effort in pursuit of things that you (and others) do not think worthwhile. Just look how much effort people put into watching television, or following the Kardassians.

So, no. "Post scarcity" is not rainbows and ponies. It's not even a thing.

Jose
Order of the Sillies, Honoris Causam - bestowed by charlie_grumbles on NP 859 * OTTscar winner: Wordsmith - bestowed by yappobiscuts and the OTT on NP 1832 * Ecclesiastical Calendar of the Order of the Holy Contradiction * Please help addams if you can. She needs all of us.

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Re: sick realization: you have negative dollars

Postby Chen » Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:35 am UTC

Thesh wrote:Lease them.


Yeah I'm assuming you're still talking in good faith here, so how exactly would that work? How would I lease the shoes/underwear that wear out? Or any clothes for that matter? What happens when I break something I've leased? Forget the fact that people like actually owning things outright, these are just a couple items off the top of my head here. It seems completely unfeasible unless there's more to this system you're leaving out.


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